This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Whilst editing or browsing, I occasionally come across articles such as this one, which produces an error message in large red letters across the top of the screen. I'm not an expert on the intricacies of this template, so I haven't fixed it. (I tried previewing it changing the O to an E, but it didn't work). What would be useful would be for the template to automatically add a category to any faults it finds, say Category:Pages with faulty co-ordinates or something. This would allow editors experienced with this template to easily target and fix the problems. Is this possible? — Tivedshambo ( t/ c) 17:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Cleanup of this page is needed : an unwanted picture appears ; a problem with the template itself, or one of the subtemplates ? Baronnet ( talk) 19:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
On the german Wikipedia I had replaced the blue globe with a unicode symbol (♁, which is the symbol for earth) for all inline coordinates (the blue globe remains in the title coords on the top right of the page). -- Dschwen 16:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I think a set of incomprehensible blue numbers in the middle of text is distracting, and icons don't make it much worse anymore. The references tag supports multiple groups now, and inline coordinates could be taken out from text but still kept linked from there. For example, these links to some place [coord 1] with an inline icon or without icon [coord 2] contain the coordinates in wikitext already, they are just shown later on, like with references. Here:
It would be nice to be able to hide the group name from the visible link, somehow. It might be possible to put some of the wikitext into the coord template to have it create the ref tags (if possible?). We could add another display parameter for that, and the user would have to add <references group="coord" />
or {{coordlist}}
to the end of the article to make sure the coordinates will be visible. I'm not sure I like it myself, but this is one possibility. --
Para (
talk) 18:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
The tool tip link includes the full coordinates, e.g. "Maps, aerial photos, and other data for 34°40′37″N 118°11′10″W" when hovering with the mouse pointer over 34°40′37″N 118°11′10″W / 34.67694°N 118.18611°W. It was suggested earlier ( Template_talk:Coor_URL/Archive01#Span_title) to limit this to the text "Maps, aerial photos, and other data for this location".
This was implemented for most coordinates templates ( 1), but this template appears to have been omitted. I suggest that we include this change in the next update of Template:Coord/link. Sample code is at [1]. -- User:Docu
Currently the {{coord|1|2|2|N|1|2|2|E|type:landmark|region:NO}} isn't recognized as an error as the validation function in {{ Coord/input/dms}} doesn't receive the 10th unnamed field.
It does work for other formats, e.g. {{coord|1|2|N|1|2|E|type:landmark|region:NO}} is recognized by {{ Coord/input/dm}} as an error as the 8th unnamed parameter is passed on.
To fix it, {{ coord}} needs the following change: [3]. It could be included in the next series of updates of the coord family. -- User:Docu
Some pages seem to lack the - in the <span class="geo"> element for positions west of the prime meridian. For example Leeds doesn't, but oddly London does.
This worked fine a few weeks ago when the pages were outputting the full microformat.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to put this, but I'm new to this. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.250.85 ( talk • contribs)
|dec-lat={{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|W|-}}{{{1}}} |dec-long={{#ifeq:{{{4}}}|S|-}}{{{3}}}
When adding coordinates to river articles, which point it should reference? The beginning, the mouth, the mid point, something else? Renata ( talk) 12:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
When Google Maps links to a Wikipedia article, it appears to have trouble with latitudes in the format -X°N. Notice that the Reserve Bank of Australia, with a latitude of -33.868086°N, is shown on Google Maps as located somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. Alternately, Australia, with a latitude of 35°18′S, is located in the proper place on the map.
So, what's the convention for latitudes in the Southern Hemisphere? Is it important to have them in a format that Google Maps can make sense of? It might be easier to request that Google update their code to read the -X°N style, particularly if that's accepted notation in the world of geography. Not sure if this is a problem for longitude as well...
Also, while I'm on the subject, an even bigger error than an Australian bank being in the middle of the Pacific Ocean is Venus's Baltis Vallis being right next door. Is there some way that non-Earth features can be marked so that they don't get picked up by Google Maps (and, potentially, do get picked up by Google Moon, Google Mars, or a hypothetical Google Venus)? Maybe it's as simple as Venus X°N Y°E (unfortunately, I don't know how often Google crawls Wikipedia to update the coordinates; it could take a significant amount of time to figure this out through trial and error). Khakiandmauve ( talk) 22:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Please check Help:Books/Feedback#Coordinates. -- User:Docu
{{{1}}}{{Hide in print|<span style="font-size: small;"><span id="coordinates">[[Geographic coordinate system|Coordinates]]: {{{1}}}</span></span>}}<noinclude>{{pp-template|small=yes}}{{template doc|Template:Coord/sub doc}}[[Category:Coord template]]</noinclude>
I was informed that a simply class="noprint", should also work. That might be easier to do perhaps, since spans are already in use. -- TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the best place to start with this question but here goes.
The problem is that there are many templates, including one that I've been working on ({{
Infobox Protected area}}
), that display a map with a mark at a specific location based on geo data, all kinds of nasty kludging is required. They call templates like {{
superimpose}} and {{
Location map}} to get the job done. They work but require special coordinate formats or manufactured data. {{
Location map}} will work with decimal latitude and longitude data.
My dream would be that there would be a way to access the latitude and longitude information in dec format. I noted when examining the source HTML code for articles using {{ coord}} that vcard geo data is always embedded in decimal format. If that data could be accessible to a template coder things would get very simple.
It appears that the VariablesExtension is not likely to be implemented anytime in the near future. See bugzilla:7865. I've tried to think of other ways like writing a parser template that would extract the data from the coord template but that would not be easy for me and must have been done already while writing this template.
The dream way would be for the coord template to create two magic words. See also Manual:Variable. Something like {{LATITUDE}} and {{LONGITUDE}}. This would require some javascript. As I say this is a dream thing and I have no idea if it is feasible.
I would be more than happy with a parser templates. Something like {{latitude|{{{coords}}}}} and {{longitude|{{{coords}}}}} but this might add unnecessary and redundant overhead.
Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated. -- DRoll ( talk) 03:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I think I was unclear in my request. Perhaps it was too late a night when I wrote it. What I need I now realize are two templates. The first would return the latitude in decimal format. The second would return the longitude in decimal format. The templates might work something like this.
{{My Template . . |coord = {{Coord|44|26|N|15|03|E}} . . }}
Then in the code for My Template:
. . {{Location map |Croatia |label = Pag |label_size = 200 |lat = {{latitude|{{{coord}}} }} |long = {{longitude|{{{coord}}} }} |marksize = 14 |position = right |width = 300 |float = right |background = #FFFFDD |caption = Pag Island on the map of Croatia }} . .
I suspect that there is a sub-template for {{ coord}} that does this already since the vbox class geo contains this data. Where do I find the code. -- droll [chat] 01:53, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed that the pop-up map you used to get when you clicked on the lovely(!) blue globe seems to be broken. I just get a blank box now. Even though there were some design and quality issues with this feature, I think it's worth hanging on to. Anyone else seeing the same? 86.161.42.191 ( talk) 02:51, 11 March 2009 (UTC).
Why is nobody reporting that bug? The box will stay blank if there is a problem with the toolserver. I tested it in various browsers (IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera, Konqueror) and it worked for me then. It does not use Java, just Javascript. What does "kind of buggy" mean? -- Dschwen 12:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I came across a problem while testing a template I'm developing and I think it might be caused by this template. In two of the optional skins the coordinate field is corrupted. Please see Template:Coord/testcases for two examples and a further explanation. These examples use well tested templates. Thanks. -- droll [chat] 00:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I might worry about it when I have some free time then. I was first afraid it was a bug in my new template. I guess its just and undocumented feature as we used to say. -- droll [chat] 00:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Can I rely on the following strangely formed template to work in the future or is there a better way. Many templates ask for coordinate input to be entered explicitly rather than using this template directly, I'm trying to write a general case template that will fill in the data.
Template input looks like this:
{{My new template | lat_deg = 22 | lat_dir = S | lon_deg = 43 | lon_dir = W | type = | scale = | region = | display = inline | name = }}
It is easy to construct {{coord|22|S|43|W||display=inline|}} and it produces 22°S 43°W / 22°S 43°W. Will this create an entry in a hidden category.
Clearly {{coord|22|||S|43|||W||display=inline|}} does not work but it I can work around that. I'd be more than thankful if someone could help with this. If I start to be a pest let me know. I won't be offended.-- droll [chat] 12:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The new syntax, thanks to your suggestion, is:
{{User:Droll/sandbox | lat_d = 37 | lat_m = 51 | lat_s = 00 | lat_NS = N | long_d = 119 | long_m = 34 | long_s = 04 | long_EW = W | type = landmark | region = US-CA | scale = 300000 | source = GNIS | display = inline | format = dms | name = Yosemite }}
The defaults create {{coord|37|51|00|N|199|34|04|type:_region:_scale:_source|format=dms|display=inline}}. Currently coord does not complain about this. You can see a prototype of the template here and test cases at here but the contents of these pages will change as I move along to something else. Any further help will be appreciated. It handles the no minutes and no seconds cases. What does "the consensus is that we won't create additional templates" mean. -- droll [chat] 00:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I also created Template:Decdeg to simplify input to sub-templates like Template:Location map. Comments also appreciated about that one. -- droll [chat] 00:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
After much discussion, we are currently using {{ coord}} of the choices at WP:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates/comparison. We can always move on or improve on {{ coord}}, but in general, IMHO it's preferable to stick with coord for now.
If your new template is just meant to be one that is being used within infoboxes rather than in articles directly, I think it would be acceptable. It should be named accordingly though, e.g. "Infobox coor convert". Possibly, you might want to use commons:Template:coordinate to start with. As for Template:Geobox2 coor/ Template:Geobox2 coor title and Template:Geobox coor, they could probably need some improvements. BTW, IMHO Infobox Mountain works fine now, but you will notice there always special cases and incomplete uses that are easier to "fix" in the template than in articles.
For your sample, I think population should be a separate field as well, especially if it's meant to be used in infoboxes. The solution at {{ Infobox UK place}} seems to work reasonably well (see testcases2, view the html source to check). Switching between inline and inline,title should be easier than adding the entire string in every article. If coordinates are given in the infobox, they are almost always meant to be for inline,title. It's a bit different when multiple coordinates are given, e.g. as in geobox.
One could imagine simply adding named parameters to {{ coord}}, after all, yours is mainly a "coord named" version. -- User:Docu
type
so syntax coord uses can still be used. I will include a population field as it makes sense. After checking that the type is city
the template will simply concatinate city( + population + ) and pass it on. --
droll
[chat] 05:12, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
cite(300,000)
. It returned city(300000)
which is nice I guess but not what I was hoping for. Still there seems to be no hurry about string functions. I checked what's going on over there and they still can't figure out how they want to implement strlen
. --
droll
[chat] 10:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
As a heads up, there's discussion of whether a parametere dim: should replace scale: at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#sk geo report. -- Tagishsimon (talk) 19:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Currently there is error trapping code in the template such as:
{{#ifeq:{{{region|XYZ}}}|XYZ||[[Category:Coord template needing repair|R{{PAGENAME}}]]}}
I think it might be interesting to consider one of the two following changes:
{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||{{#ifeq:{{{region|XYZ}}}|XYZ||[[Category:Coord template needing repair|R{{PAGENAME}}]]}}}}
This would trap only pages in the article space.
{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|User||{{#ifeq:{{{region|XYZ}}}|XYZ||[[Category:Coord template needing repair|R{{PAGENAME}}]]}}}}
This would not trap errors in the user space. Just a thought. -- droll [chat] 10:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The following code
{{coord|37|48||N|113|55|29|W}}
currently produces an error: Invalid arguments have been passed to the {{#coordinates:}} function
This is due to one of the conversion templates that produces the vcard coordinates in dec notation, is not checking wether or not a value that is used in the calculation is present at all. I think we should fix that, because as far as I know, we don't require equal granularity for coordinates do we ? -- TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 13:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
{{coord|37|48||N|113|55|29|W}}
should be a valid input. -- User:DocuI propose adding {{#ifexpr:({{{2|yes}} = "yes") or ({{{3|yes}} = "yes") or ({{{6|yes}} = "yes") or ({{{7|yes}}} = "yes")|[[Category:Coord template needing repair|e{{PAGENAME}}]]|}} to {{ coord/input/dms}}. I think that should detect this case. A similar check can be added for dm. What do you think ? (untested btw) -- TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 19:14, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I've come across several pages that use form {{coord|37|12.345|N|119|12.345|W|format=dms}} and the result is 37°12.345′N 119°12.345′W / 37.205750°N 119.205750°W. I don't think that is quite in the spirit of things. This is a popular format in the Geocaching community but I don't know how broadly it is used elsewhere.
Anyway I've been thinking about the problem with a page like User:EncMstr/test1/coord. It seems to me that page is a rare and special case and the aim should be to code for the general case. Another solution would be to have a stupid version of Coord that could be used on the few pages like EncMstr's page. It would do no format or error checking and maybe not even display the globe. It might have fewer parameters than the smart version. In the documentation for the stupid Coord it would state that the user is responsible for double checking there data and warn that it is not for general use. Seems like most errors could still be trapped down the road by something like Dispenser's tool. I'd like to try to code it if there is any agreement. -- droll [chat] 04:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
So I wrote a very simple version of Coord and tested EncMstr's page. The results were dramatic. Not only did the test page in my work space complete but for EncMstr's page using Coord:
and for a simple version of the tempate:
That is very dramatic. So I'd say there should be heavy error checking in Coord and have a special version for special cases. -- droll [chat] 05:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Another advantage (or maybe disadvantage) is that no hcards are produced. On a page like the test page that might be a good thing especially since no name parameter is given and all those coordinates become associated with the page name which is meaningless.
A side effect of the simple version is that the external link icon is displayed. If I remember correctly there is a way of not displaying that but it might serve as an indicator that Coord was not used. For now the simple template can be found here and the test page here. -- droll [chat] 06:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I've analyzed Wikipedia's HTML code for representing geographical coordinates. The current code is verbose and does not support the Geo microformat correctly. Three alternatives, differing on functionality and code size, are suggested as replacements.
-- Howcome ( talk) 21:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
59°56′N 10°41′E
Thanks for some great feedback. I have chosen to analyze what come out from Wikipedia's servers, not what goes on inside – technically or organizationally. It's good to see that people know where changes must be made, even if it's impossible to make the changes outright. Looking at the code, I also understand that people may be afraid to break stuff. Most "breaks" would be stylistic though, they wouldn't prevent people from getting the content. And, I do believe features like generated content can be added to enhance the experience without breaking anything. Be bold! (but don't use the <b> tag :-)
-- Howcome ( talk) 07:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Incredible! We are close to perfection! -- User:Docu
I was looking at the most transcluded pages, and noted that there are 100000 more usages of {{ Coor URL}} (on a total of 370000) then that there are of {{ Coord}}. In that respect, it might be that there is a set of templates that really ought to be updated somewhat or at least evaluated if their reason for not using coord is a good reason. I think that list comes down to this. What do you guys think ? -- TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 14:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello! Is it possible to somehow easy transfer coord template to another language Wikipedia? Or do I really need to copy coord template and all its countless subtemplate pages separately? By the way, this coord subtemplate system seems somewhat huge, clumsy mechanism if we look at the small output it generates for the user (a link to the appropriate Geo Hack website)… -- Knakts ( talk) 12:42, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is it "region:US-WI_type:landmark" instead of "region=US-WI|type=landmark" like other templates? -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 19:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I want to mark up coordinates that appear within a quotation. The format of the coordinates in the quotation is "lat. 31°59'S, long. 117°30'E". This template doesn't use that format, and it wouldn't be proper for me to change the format inside a quote. Any ideas?
Hesperian 14:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that if I put a punctuation mark after this template the result looks ugly because of space before the mark, like this:
50°5′17″N 14°24′12″E / 50.08806°N 14.40333°E.
I think the reason for this is in the {{
Coord/link}} template. The part "<span class="geo-multi-punct"> / </span>
" shouldn't do anything because that class has style set to display: none
, but wikipedia somehow translates it into " <span class="geo-multi-punct">/</span>
" (note the spaces before <span>
and after </span>
) in HTML, so the spaces are visible.
I know this is a very minor issue, but I don't know how can this be fixed, so can somebody help? Svick ( talk) 14:10, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
This extra space problem is still with us. I would like to encourage the folks who understand this template to get it fixed as soon as possible. It is very noticeable in all the articles where the coordinates are included in the text of the article. I hope this can be resolved. -- droll [chat] 08:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
display:none
spans. If they are written correctly, tidy recognizes them and pulls them out of the spans, so I've undone the change. I can't really offer an alternative though. :\
Amalthea 10:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)As an alternative to removing the space completely, we can use an (] [), (] [), or a (] [). All are breaking spaces, and really aren't recognized by Tidy. I'd suggest using an both here and at Template:sort, unless anyone knows of display issues with them. Amalthea 11:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Is there a way to do this without ? If people re-use the coordinates, it's likely to create problems elsewhere (templates don't process them). -- User:Docu
X<span><i/> foo <i/></span>X
" → "X<i/> foo <i/>X
" (the underlined part is the span).Just tried converting
List of artificial objects on the Moon to use marked up {{
coord|29.1|N|0|W|globe:Moon}}
instead of bare coordinates (currently displayed as
29°06′N 0°00′E / 29.1°N -0°E). Is the "globe:XYZ" stuff supposed to work and, if not, what needs fixing (eg. to make it point correctly at
moon.google.com)? —
Sladen (
talk) 13:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
globe:moon
, but often these
coordinate parameters come together with other parameters, and Wikipedia doesn't have string functions to use just one. Best solution is probably to have GeoHack redirect requests with globe:moon
to the moon page. --
Para (
talk) 15:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
globe:moon
documentation that would be an ideal solution. Is it not possible to just grep for the string ".*global:moon.*" within the macro parameter (I thought Mediawiki template language was supposed to be Turing complete). ..and it it is not possible, who would need contacting to get GeoHack fixed externally? —
Sladen (
talk) 17:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
globe:
subpages into GeoHack with the layout update today. —
Dispenser 19:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)What source, if any, should I use if I find coords with Google Maps or Google Earth? Jason Quinn ( talk) 16:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
{{
coord|12.345|-67.89|type:landmark_source:googlemaps}}
... or {{
coord|12.345|-67.89|type:landmark_source:googleearth}}
.... —
EncMstr (
talk) 16:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)Per this FAC discussion, some editors, including myself, are finding that the globe graphic that appears in the coord template is distracting, especially in articles, such as the Battle of the Coral Sea, where the template is used frequently throughout the text. Also, the graphic, in large numbers, appears to slow the loading of the article. Is there an alternative, such as removing the graphic? Cla68 ( talk) 06:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
var wma_settings = {onlyTitle:true};
to your monobook.js. —
Dispenser 18:35, 13 June 2009 (UTC)Does anyone know what happened to the coordinates in the article Mont Blanc? They are given as
which seems correct, but is translated by the template to 45°1′1″N 6°51′54″E.
This makes Mont Blanc appear way too much south, both in the infobox and also in Google Maps. -- Momotaro ( talk) 12:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed today that this template is outputting the coordinates in the middle of the horizontal line underscoring the title of the article - instead of being above the article. This is happening with Chrome - and was not happening last week - though I'm not sure of the exact day when the behavior changed. -- Trödel 05:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Coord is down. That is, if you click 10°12′N 20°18′W / 10.2°N 20.3°W, or the upper right corner coordinate link of pages like Athens, the page is not found. Happens on both Microsoft Explorer and Flock (browser). Art LaPella ( talk) 23:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I note than in many cases this template is used in its degree minute second (dms) form rather than either decimal degrees or degrees and decimal minutes. A second of latitude (and of longitude at the equator) is approximately 31 meters or 100 feet. In an urban setting that will often not be precise enough to specify which of several buildings is of interest. Since a degree of latitude is about 111,120 meters, four places of decimal degrees is enough to specify position to 11 meters, while five places will often be more precise than the accuracy of the underlying data.
Is it possible to generally encourage the use of decimal degrees? If so, what is the procedure? Or is this a fool's errand? Jameslwoodward ( talk) 12:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Mount Whitney | |
---|---|
Highest point | |
Elevation | 14,505 feet (4,421 m) |
Coordinates | 36°34′42.89″N 118°17′31.18″W |
Mount Whitney | |
---|---|
Highest point | |
Elevation | 14,505 feet (4,421 m) |
Coordinates | 36.5785806°N 118.2919944°W |
I have always had a problem with how line wrapped coordinates appear in infoboxes. I just looks typographically clumsy. I'd like it to look like in this example but I have no idea how it could be done. – droll [chat] 18:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Mount Whitney | |
---|---|
Elevation | 14,505 feet (4,421 m) |
Coordinates | 36°34′42.89″N 118°17′31.18″W / 36.5785806°N 118.2919944°W |
table.infobox td span.coord { padding-left:2.2em;text-indent:-20px; }
. I'm not so sure how many people would welcome this however. —
TheDJ (
talk •
contribs) 21:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)"You have chosen to download geohack.php, which is a PHP file." Have you checked your server today? -- SEWilco ( talk) 00:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Just as a reminder, the dim: parameter needs to be explained in the documentation. thanks -- Tagishsimon (talk) 15:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The template breaks if the article heading begins with an *. Eg. *scape Youth Space. Is anyone able to fix this? - oahiyeel talk 07:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
*
, it is treated as a list item (like the *
would be on a beginning of a line). I don't know how to fix this.
Svick (
talk) 09:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I discovered that {{
Coord}} doesn't take undefined parameters. Meaning that something like {{Coord|34||N|55||E}}
will return an error (two actually).
Can something be done to change this? I may add that this would be an important and possibly necessary improvement if we ever want to call the Coord template with variables (which is where I am coming from). Debresser ( talk) 12:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
{{
coord|34|N|55|E}}
which gives
34°N 55°E / 34°N 55°E? —
EncMstr (
talk) 19:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)if lat_s then coord|d|m|s|NS|d|m|s|EW else if lat_m then coord|d|m|NS|d|m|EW else coord|d|NS|d|EW
. --
Para (
talk) 19:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC){{#expr:0{{{2|}}} }}
. Of course the solution implemented is probably the worse as it break the meaning of an empty minutes or seconds being (that we don't know the value) and instead it will tell every tool we know the value to be (very precisely) zero.This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
Whilst editing or browsing, I occasionally come across articles such as this one, which produces an error message in large red letters across the top of the screen. I'm not an expert on the intricacies of this template, so I haven't fixed it. (I tried previewing it changing the O to an E, but it didn't work). What would be useful would be for the template to automatically add a category to any faults it finds, say Category:Pages with faulty co-ordinates or something. This would allow editors experienced with this template to easily target and fix the problems. Is this possible? — Tivedshambo ( t/ c) 17:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Cleanup of this page is needed : an unwanted picture appears ; a problem with the template itself, or one of the subtemplates ? Baronnet ( talk) 19:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
On the german Wikipedia I had replaced the blue globe with a unicode symbol (♁, which is the symbol for earth) for all inline coordinates (the blue globe remains in the title coords on the top right of the page). -- Dschwen 16:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I think a set of incomprehensible blue numbers in the middle of text is distracting, and icons don't make it much worse anymore. The references tag supports multiple groups now, and inline coordinates could be taken out from text but still kept linked from there. For example, these links to some place [coord 1] with an inline icon or without icon [coord 2] contain the coordinates in wikitext already, they are just shown later on, like with references. Here:
It would be nice to be able to hide the group name from the visible link, somehow. It might be possible to put some of the wikitext into the coord template to have it create the ref tags (if possible?). We could add another display parameter for that, and the user would have to add <references group="coord" />
or {{coordlist}}
to the end of the article to make sure the coordinates will be visible. I'm not sure I like it myself, but this is one possibility. --
Para (
talk) 18:45, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
The tool tip link includes the full coordinates, e.g. "Maps, aerial photos, and other data for 34°40′37″N 118°11′10″W" when hovering with the mouse pointer over 34°40′37″N 118°11′10″W / 34.67694°N 118.18611°W. It was suggested earlier ( Template_talk:Coor_URL/Archive01#Span_title) to limit this to the text "Maps, aerial photos, and other data for this location".
This was implemented for most coordinates templates ( 1), but this template appears to have been omitted. I suggest that we include this change in the next update of Template:Coord/link. Sample code is at [1]. -- User:Docu
Currently the {{coord|1|2|2|N|1|2|2|E|type:landmark|region:NO}} isn't recognized as an error as the validation function in {{ Coord/input/dms}} doesn't receive the 10th unnamed field.
It does work for other formats, e.g. {{coord|1|2|N|1|2|E|type:landmark|region:NO}} is recognized by {{ Coord/input/dm}} as an error as the 8th unnamed parameter is passed on.
To fix it, {{ coord}} needs the following change: [3]. It could be included in the next series of updates of the coord family. -- User:Docu
Some pages seem to lack the - in the <span class="geo"> element for positions west of the prime meridian. For example Leeds doesn't, but oddly London does.
This worked fine a few weeks ago when the pages were outputting the full microformat.
Sorry if this is the wrong place to put this, but I'm new to this. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.26.250.85 ( talk • contribs)
|dec-lat={{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|W|-}}{{{1}}} |dec-long={{#ifeq:{{{4}}}|S|-}}{{{3}}}
When adding coordinates to river articles, which point it should reference? The beginning, the mouth, the mid point, something else? Renata ( talk) 12:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
When Google Maps links to a Wikipedia article, it appears to have trouble with latitudes in the format -X°N. Notice that the Reserve Bank of Australia, with a latitude of -33.868086°N, is shown on Google Maps as located somewhere in the Pacific Ocean. Alternately, Australia, with a latitude of 35°18′S, is located in the proper place on the map.
So, what's the convention for latitudes in the Southern Hemisphere? Is it important to have them in a format that Google Maps can make sense of? It might be easier to request that Google update their code to read the -X°N style, particularly if that's accepted notation in the world of geography. Not sure if this is a problem for longitude as well...
Also, while I'm on the subject, an even bigger error than an Australian bank being in the middle of the Pacific Ocean is Venus's Baltis Vallis being right next door. Is there some way that non-Earth features can be marked so that they don't get picked up by Google Maps (and, potentially, do get picked up by Google Moon, Google Mars, or a hypothetical Google Venus)? Maybe it's as simple as Venus X°N Y°E (unfortunately, I don't know how often Google crawls Wikipedia to update the coordinates; it could take a significant amount of time to figure this out through trial and error). Khakiandmauve ( talk) 22:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Please check Help:Books/Feedback#Coordinates. -- User:Docu
{{{1}}}{{Hide in print|<span style="font-size: small;"><span id="coordinates">[[Geographic coordinate system|Coordinates]]: {{{1}}}</span></span>}}<noinclude>{{pp-template|small=yes}}{{template doc|Template:Coord/sub doc}}[[Category:Coord template]]</noinclude>
I was informed that a simply class="noprint", should also work. That might be easier to do perhaps, since spans are already in use. -- TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 21:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if this is the best place to start with this question but here goes.
The problem is that there are many templates, including one that I've been working on ({{
Infobox Protected area}}
), that display a map with a mark at a specific location based on geo data, all kinds of nasty kludging is required. They call templates like {{
superimpose}} and {{
Location map}} to get the job done. They work but require special coordinate formats or manufactured data. {{
Location map}} will work with decimal latitude and longitude data.
My dream would be that there would be a way to access the latitude and longitude information in dec format. I noted when examining the source HTML code for articles using {{ coord}} that vcard geo data is always embedded in decimal format. If that data could be accessible to a template coder things would get very simple.
It appears that the VariablesExtension is not likely to be implemented anytime in the near future. See bugzilla:7865. I've tried to think of other ways like writing a parser template that would extract the data from the coord template but that would not be easy for me and must have been done already while writing this template.
The dream way would be for the coord template to create two magic words. See also Manual:Variable. Something like {{LATITUDE}} and {{LONGITUDE}}. This would require some javascript. As I say this is a dream thing and I have no idea if it is feasible.
I would be more than happy with a parser templates. Something like {{latitude|{{{coords}}}}} and {{longitude|{{{coords}}}}} but this might add unnecessary and redundant overhead.
Any thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated. -- DRoll ( talk) 03:43, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
I think I was unclear in my request. Perhaps it was too late a night when I wrote it. What I need I now realize are two templates. The first would return the latitude in decimal format. The second would return the longitude in decimal format. The templates might work something like this.
{{My Template . . |coord = {{Coord|44|26|N|15|03|E}} . . }}
Then in the code for My Template:
. . {{Location map |Croatia |label = Pag |label_size = 200 |lat = {{latitude|{{{coord}}} }} |long = {{longitude|{{{coord}}} }} |marksize = 14 |position = right |width = 300 |float = right |background = #FFFFDD |caption = Pag Island on the map of Croatia }} . .
I suspect that there is a sub-template for {{ coord}} that does this already since the vbox class geo contains this data. Where do I find the code. -- droll [chat] 01:53, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
I've noticed that the pop-up map you used to get when you clicked on the lovely(!) blue globe seems to be broken. I just get a blank box now. Even though there were some design and quality issues with this feature, I think it's worth hanging on to. Anyone else seeing the same? 86.161.42.191 ( talk) 02:51, 11 March 2009 (UTC).
Why is nobody reporting that bug? The box will stay blank if there is a problem with the toolserver. I tested it in various browsers (IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera, Konqueror) and it worked for me then. It does not use Java, just Javascript. What does "kind of buggy" mean? -- Dschwen 12:35, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
I came across a problem while testing a template I'm developing and I think it might be caused by this template. In two of the optional skins the coordinate field is corrupted. Please see Template:Coord/testcases for two examples and a further explanation. These examples use well tested templates. Thanks. -- droll [chat] 00:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I might worry about it when I have some free time then. I was first afraid it was a bug in my new template. I guess its just and undocumented feature as we used to say. -- droll [chat] 00:45, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Can I rely on the following strangely formed template to work in the future or is there a better way. Many templates ask for coordinate input to be entered explicitly rather than using this template directly, I'm trying to write a general case template that will fill in the data.
Template input looks like this:
{{My new template | lat_deg = 22 | lat_dir = S | lon_deg = 43 | lon_dir = W | type = | scale = | region = | display = inline | name = }}
It is easy to construct {{coord|22|S|43|W||display=inline|}} and it produces 22°S 43°W / 22°S 43°W. Will this create an entry in a hidden category.
Clearly {{coord|22|||S|43|||W||display=inline|}} does not work but it I can work around that. I'd be more than thankful if someone could help with this. If I start to be a pest let me know. I won't be offended.-- droll [chat] 12:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The new syntax, thanks to your suggestion, is:
{{User:Droll/sandbox | lat_d = 37 | lat_m = 51 | lat_s = 00 | lat_NS = N | long_d = 119 | long_m = 34 | long_s = 04 | long_EW = W | type = landmark | region = US-CA | scale = 300000 | source = GNIS | display = inline | format = dms | name = Yosemite }}
The defaults create {{coord|37|51|00|N|199|34|04|type:_region:_scale:_source|format=dms|display=inline}}. Currently coord does not complain about this. You can see a prototype of the template here and test cases at here but the contents of these pages will change as I move along to something else. Any further help will be appreciated. It handles the no minutes and no seconds cases. What does "the consensus is that we won't create additional templates" mean. -- droll [chat] 00:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
I also created Template:Decdeg to simplify input to sub-templates like Template:Location map. Comments also appreciated about that one. -- droll [chat] 00:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
After much discussion, we are currently using {{ coord}} of the choices at WP:WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates/comparison. We can always move on or improve on {{ coord}}, but in general, IMHO it's preferable to stick with coord for now.
If your new template is just meant to be one that is being used within infoboxes rather than in articles directly, I think it would be acceptable. It should be named accordingly though, e.g. "Infobox coor convert". Possibly, you might want to use commons:Template:coordinate to start with. As for Template:Geobox2 coor/ Template:Geobox2 coor title and Template:Geobox coor, they could probably need some improvements. BTW, IMHO Infobox Mountain works fine now, but you will notice there always special cases and incomplete uses that are easier to "fix" in the template than in articles.
For your sample, I think population should be a separate field as well, especially if it's meant to be used in infoboxes. The solution at {{ Infobox UK place}} seems to work reasonably well (see testcases2, view the html source to check). Switching between inline and inline,title should be easier than adding the entire string in every article. If coordinates are given in the infobox, they are almost always meant to be for inline,title. It's a bit different when multiple coordinates are given, e.g. as in geobox.
One could imagine simply adding named parameters to {{ coord}}, after all, yours is mainly a "coord named" version. -- User:Docu
type
so syntax coord uses can still be used. I will include a population field as it makes sense. After checking that the type is city
the template will simply concatinate city( + population + ) and pass it on. --
droll
[chat] 05:12, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
cite(300,000)
. It returned city(300000)
which is nice I guess but not what I was hoping for. Still there seems to be no hurry about string functions. I checked what's going on over there and they still can't figure out how they want to implement strlen
. --
droll
[chat] 10:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
As a heads up, there's discussion of whether a parametere dim: should replace scale: at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#sk geo report. -- Tagishsimon (talk) 19:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Currently there is error trapping code in the template such as:
{{#ifeq:{{{region|XYZ}}}|XYZ||[[Category:Coord template needing repair|R{{PAGENAME}}]]}}
I think it might be interesting to consider one of the two following changes:
{{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||{{#ifeq:{{{region|XYZ}}}|XYZ||[[Category:Coord template needing repair|R{{PAGENAME}}]]}}}}
This would trap only pages in the article space.
{{#ifeq:{{NAMESPACE}}|User||{{#ifeq:{{{region|XYZ}}}|XYZ||[[Category:Coord template needing repair|R{{PAGENAME}}]]}}}}
This would not trap errors in the user space. Just a thought. -- droll [chat] 10:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
The following code
{{coord|37|48||N|113|55|29|W}}
currently produces an error: Invalid arguments have been passed to the {{#coordinates:}} function
This is due to one of the conversion templates that produces the vcard coordinates in dec notation, is not checking wether or not a value that is used in the calculation is present at all. I think we should fix that, because as far as I know, we don't require equal granularity for coordinates do we ? -- TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 13:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
{{coord|37|48||N|113|55|29|W}}
should be a valid input. -- User:DocuI propose adding {{#ifexpr:({{{2|yes}} = "yes") or ({{{3|yes}} = "yes") or ({{{6|yes}} = "yes") or ({{{7|yes}}} = "yes")|[[Category:Coord template needing repair|e{{PAGENAME}}]]|}} to {{ coord/input/dms}}. I think that should detect this case. A similar check can be added for dm. What do you think ? (untested btw) -- TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 19:14, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
I've come across several pages that use form {{coord|37|12.345|N|119|12.345|W|format=dms}} and the result is 37°12.345′N 119°12.345′W / 37.205750°N 119.205750°W. I don't think that is quite in the spirit of things. This is a popular format in the Geocaching community but I don't know how broadly it is used elsewhere.
Anyway I've been thinking about the problem with a page like User:EncMstr/test1/coord. It seems to me that page is a rare and special case and the aim should be to code for the general case. Another solution would be to have a stupid version of Coord that could be used on the few pages like EncMstr's page. It would do no format or error checking and maybe not even display the globe. It might have fewer parameters than the smart version. In the documentation for the stupid Coord it would state that the user is responsible for double checking there data and warn that it is not for general use. Seems like most errors could still be trapped down the road by something like Dispenser's tool. I'd like to try to code it if there is any agreement. -- droll [chat] 04:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
So I wrote a very simple version of Coord and tested EncMstr's page. The results were dramatic. Not only did the test page in my work space complete but for EncMstr's page using Coord:
and for a simple version of the tempate:
That is very dramatic. So I'd say there should be heavy error checking in Coord and have a special version for special cases. -- droll [chat] 05:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
Another advantage (or maybe disadvantage) is that no hcards are produced. On a page like the test page that might be a good thing especially since no name parameter is given and all those coordinates become associated with the page name which is meaningless.
A side effect of the simple version is that the external link icon is displayed. If I remember correctly there is a way of not displaying that but it might serve as an indicator that Coord was not used. For now the simple template can be found here and the test page here. -- droll [chat] 06:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
I've analyzed Wikipedia's HTML code for representing geographical coordinates. The current code is verbose and does not support the Geo microformat correctly. Three alternatives, differing on functionality and code size, are suggested as replacements.
-- Howcome ( talk) 21:34, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
59°56′N 10°41′E
Thanks for some great feedback. I have chosen to analyze what come out from Wikipedia's servers, not what goes on inside – technically or organizationally. It's good to see that people know where changes must be made, even if it's impossible to make the changes outright. Looking at the code, I also understand that people may be afraid to break stuff. Most "breaks" would be stylistic though, they wouldn't prevent people from getting the content. And, I do believe features like generated content can be added to enhance the experience without breaking anything. Be bold! (but don't use the <b> tag :-)
-- Howcome ( talk) 07:48, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Incredible! We are close to perfection! -- User:Docu
I was looking at the most transcluded pages, and noted that there are 100000 more usages of {{ Coor URL}} (on a total of 370000) then that there are of {{ Coord}}. In that respect, it might be that there is a set of templates that really ought to be updated somewhat or at least evaluated if their reason for not using coord is a good reason. I think that list comes down to this. What do you guys think ? -- TheDJ ( talk • contribs) 14:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello! Is it possible to somehow easy transfer coord template to another language Wikipedia? Or do I really need to copy coord template and all its countless subtemplate pages separately? By the way, this coord subtemplate system seems somewhat huge, clumsy mechanism if we look at the small output it generates for the user (a link to the appropriate Geo Hack website)… -- Knakts ( talk) 12:42, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Why is it "region:US-WI_type:landmark" instead of "region=US-WI|type=landmark" like other templates? -- Apoc2400 ( talk) 19:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
I want to mark up coordinates that appear within a quotation. The format of the coordinates in the quotation is "lat. 31°59'S, long. 117°30'E". This template doesn't use that format, and it wouldn't be proper for me to change the format inside a quote. Any ideas?
Hesperian 14:02, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that if I put a punctuation mark after this template the result looks ugly because of space before the mark, like this:
50°5′17″N 14°24′12″E / 50.08806°N 14.40333°E.
I think the reason for this is in the {{
Coord/link}} template. The part "<span class="geo-multi-punct"> / </span>
" shouldn't do anything because that class has style set to display: none
, but wikipedia somehow translates it into " <span class="geo-multi-punct">/</span>
" (note the spaces before <span>
and after </span>
) in HTML, so the spaces are visible.
I know this is a very minor issue, but I don't know how can this be fixed, so can somebody help? Svick ( talk) 14:10, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
This extra space problem is still with us. I would like to encourage the folks who understand this template to get it fixed as soon as possible. It is very noticeable in all the articles where the coordinates are included in the text of the article. I hope this can be resolved. -- droll [chat] 08:14, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
display:none
spans. If they are written correctly, tidy recognizes them and pulls them out of the spans, so I've undone the change. I can't really offer an alternative though. :\
Amalthea 10:32, 15 May 2009 (UTC)As an alternative to removing the space completely, we can use an (] [), (] [), or a (] [). All are breaking spaces, and really aren't recognized by Tidy. I'd suggest using an both here and at Template:sort, unless anyone knows of display issues with them. Amalthea 11:23, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Is there a way to do this without ? If people re-use the coordinates, it's likely to create problems elsewhere (templates don't process them). -- User:Docu
X<span><i/> foo <i/></span>X
" → "X<i/> foo <i/>X
" (the underlined part is the span).Just tried converting
List of artificial objects on the Moon to use marked up {{
coord|29.1|N|0|W|globe:Moon}}
instead of bare coordinates (currently displayed as
29°06′N 0°00′E / 29.1°N -0°E). Is the "globe:XYZ" stuff supposed to work and, if not, what needs fixing (eg. to make it point correctly at
moon.google.com)? —
Sladen (
talk) 13:01, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
globe:moon
, but often these
coordinate parameters come together with other parameters, and Wikipedia doesn't have string functions to use just one. Best solution is probably to have GeoHack redirect requests with globe:moon
to the moon page. --
Para (
talk) 15:32, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
globe:moon
documentation that would be an ideal solution. Is it not possible to just grep for the string ".*global:moon.*" within the macro parameter (I thought Mediawiki template language was supposed to be Turing complete). ..and it it is not possible, who would need contacting to get GeoHack fixed externally? —
Sladen (
talk) 17:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
globe:
subpages into GeoHack with the layout update today. —
Dispenser 19:57, 24 April 2009 (UTC)What source, if any, should I use if I find coords with Google Maps or Google Earth? Jason Quinn ( talk) 16:23, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
{{
coord|12.345|-67.89|type:landmark_source:googlemaps}}
... or {{
coord|12.345|-67.89|type:landmark_source:googleearth}}
.... —
EncMstr (
talk) 16:32, 10 June 2009 (UTC)Per this FAC discussion, some editors, including myself, are finding that the globe graphic that appears in the coord template is distracting, especially in articles, such as the Battle of the Coral Sea, where the template is used frequently throughout the text. Also, the graphic, in large numbers, appears to slow the loading of the article. Is there an alternative, such as removing the graphic? Cla68 ( talk) 06:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
var wma_settings = {onlyTitle:true};
to your monobook.js. —
Dispenser 18:35, 13 June 2009 (UTC)Does anyone know what happened to the coordinates in the article Mont Blanc? They are given as
which seems correct, but is translated by the template to 45°1′1″N 6°51′54″E.
This makes Mont Blanc appear way too much south, both in the infobox and also in Google Maps. -- Momotaro ( talk) 12:59, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I noticed today that this template is outputting the coordinates in the middle of the horizontal line underscoring the title of the article - instead of being above the article. This is happening with Chrome - and was not happening last week - though I'm not sure of the exact day when the behavior changed. -- Trödel 05:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Coord is down. That is, if you click 10°12′N 20°18′W / 10.2°N 20.3°W, or the upper right corner coordinate link of pages like Athens, the page is not found. Happens on both Microsoft Explorer and Flock (browser). Art LaPella ( talk) 23:34, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
I note than in many cases this template is used in its degree minute second (dms) form rather than either decimal degrees or degrees and decimal minutes. A second of latitude (and of longitude at the equator) is approximately 31 meters or 100 feet. In an urban setting that will often not be precise enough to specify which of several buildings is of interest. Since a degree of latitude is about 111,120 meters, four places of decimal degrees is enough to specify position to 11 meters, while five places will often be more precise than the accuracy of the underlying data.
Is it possible to generally encourage the use of decimal degrees? If so, what is the procedure? Or is this a fool's errand? Jameslwoodward ( talk) 12:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Mount Whitney | |
---|---|
Highest point | |
Elevation | 14,505 feet (4,421 m) |
Coordinates | 36°34′42.89″N 118°17′31.18″W |
Mount Whitney | |
---|---|
Highest point | |
Elevation | 14,505 feet (4,421 m) |
Coordinates | 36.5785806°N 118.2919944°W |
I have always had a problem with how line wrapped coordinates appear in infoboxes. I just looks typographically clumsy. I'd like it to look like in this example but I have no idea how it could be done. – droll [chat] 18:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Mount Whitney | |
---|---|
Elevation | 14,505 feet (4,421 m) |
Coordinates | 36°34′42.89″N 118°17′31.18″W / 36.5785806°N 118.2919944°W |
table.infobox td span.coord { padding-left:2.2em;text-indent:-20px; }
. I'm not so sure how many people would welcome this however. —
TheDJ (
talk •
contribs) 21:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)"You have chosen to download geohack.php, which is a PHP file." Have you checked your server today? -- SEWilco ( talk) 00:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Just as a reminder, the dim: parameter needs to be explained in the documentation. thanks -- Tagishsimon (talk) 15:46, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The template breaks if the article heading begins with an *. Eg. *scape Youth Space. Is anyone able to fix this? - oahiyeel talk 07:54, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
*
, it is treated as a list item (like the *
would be on a beginning of a line). I don't know how to fix this.
Svick (
talk) 09:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
I discovered that {{
Coord}} doesn't take undefined parameters. Meaning that something like {{Coord|34||N|55||E}}
will return an error (two actually).
Can something be done to change this? I may add that this would be an important and possibly necessary improvement if we ever want to call the Coord template with variables (which is where I am coming from). Debresser ( talk) 12:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
{{
coord|34|N|55|E}}
which gives
34°N 55°E / 34°N 55°E? —
EncMstr (
talk) 19:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)if lat_s then coord|d|m|s|NS|d|m|s|EW else if lat_m then coord|d|m|NS|d|m|EW else coord|d|NS|d|EW
. --
Para (
talk) 19:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC){{#expr:0{{{2|}}} }}
. Of course the solution implemented is probably the worse as it break the meaning of an empty minutes or seconds being (that we don't know the value) and instead it will tell every tool we know the value to be (very precisely) zero.