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Clickpop and others, will you please stop editwarring? Whether you like it or not, Newspeak is generally considered a constructed language. For your information: a constructed language is not by definition a language with a fully invented grammar and/or a fully invented vocabulary. So indeed, Newspeak is a different beast from Ithkuil and Esperanto, but that doesn't change anything. There are different genres in conlanging, including the so-called subset languages and superset languages. An example of the former is Basic English: this language is entirely English, yet, it consists solely of a small part of the English language. Basic English has a list of allowed words, which is the work of one person, and as such it is a constructed language, a "controlled natural language" to be precise. Superset languages are usually a set of vocabulary embedded in an existing (natural) language. Well-known examples are Newspeak, Nadsat and Lingua Ignota. Again, the grammar and the base language in these cases are English (or in the case of Ignota, Latin), but the set of additional vocabulary is created by one person, and therefore "constructed". If you ask: How do I say "I love you"? in Basic English, Nadsat or Newspeak, you'd be asking the wrong question, because these are no languages that pretend to have an invented word for everything. We only meet Nadsat or Newspeak when we stumble upon a word from the list. The point is, however, this type of languages are generally considered types of conlangs. See for example constructed language, the list of constructed languages and the Portal. You may agree with that or not, but Wikipedia is not there to set a policy. Therefore, I ask you to provide evidence that Newspeak (and Nadsat, for that matter) are not counted among the constructed languages after all, instead of starting an edit war over it. — IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
The template says Mänti is one of the most notable conlangs. If that is so, why does it not have its own article, or even a well-written section in Daniel Tammet? Is it really that notable? 151.203.254.81 ( talk) 20:41, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Per http://www.suburbandestiny.com/?p=611 , there is no grammar yet available for Na'vi, only a limited word list built around the needs of a single film. Requires more evidence that it's listable under the criteria on Constructed language, far less a "notable" example of these. Regards, David. Harami2000 ( talk) 22:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Let's get this straight: a constructed language is any language that has not evolved naturally, but has its origins on the drawing board. It has nothing to do with questions like: where the vocabulary comes from (a priori/a posteriori and all that), how complete the language is, etc. Personally, I know nothing about Na'vi at all (hadn't even heard of it before this article came up), but from what I can see, it definitely qualifies as a conlang, and it definitely has some degree of notability.
However, here we have a problem. Wikipedia has certain criteria that decide whether a subject is notable enough be included or not. But in this template we are dealing with something extremely vague like "most notable conlangs". And that's what makes this a difficult discussion, because there are no criteria that decide what makes a notable subject more notable than another notable subject. All languages listed here are definitely notable enough for inclusion in the project as a whole, but if you ask me, the choice of what makes these languages more notable than the rest is completely arbitrary. Maybe we should simply list Esperanto, Interlingua, Ido, Volapük, Quenya and Sindarin only, and leave the rest to links to categories? Or work with templates dealing with subcategories of conlangs instead? Just a thought, of course. Maybe something to discuss with the Wikiproject Constructed Languages. —
IJzeren Jan
Uszkiełtu? 11:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Is Mirad notable (let alone "most notable")? The article is very thin and implies it is a work in progress. — Tamfang ( talk) 19:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Is there any sense in splitting the 'notable constructed languages' into two separate sublists, one for languages that have been constructed for use in fictional realms (Tolkein, Star Trek etc.) and others that were intended as a real-life exercise? It seems a pretty natural split: maybe something like Esperanto should be distinct from Klingon. I don't know. Does that skirt too close to WP:SYNTH? Just an idea. Opinions? — Tom Morris 12:35, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
There are a lot of completely unnotable languages on this infobox that have never been talked about outside of conlang mailing lists. Many of them were probably added to the infobox by their authors, while others are obscure curiosities that don't really belong in Wikipedia. There should not be this many articles about individual constructed languages: imo there should be Latin Without Inflections, Volapuk, Esperanto, Ido, Quenya/Sindarin, Interlingua, Klingon, Loglan, lojban, Dothraki and Na'vi. Throw *truly* up-and-coming languages like Láadan and Toki Pona in there too if you want. Why not start a conlang wiki that lists any and every conlang in existence? Kraŭs ( talk) 20:40, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Today I've removed two sections from the template: grammars of individual languages and language comparisons. This template is not meant to provide links to all conlang-related articles, it is not even meant to include every individual conlang. The links in question are in fact expanded subsections and can be find in the articles they belong to. Other templates for language groups don't include this kind of articles either. — IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:57, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Fushi conlang is created in 2 of july of 2024, 40 consonantes and 8 vowels 2800:A4:1546:5200:C48:62F9:A83:8612 ( talk) 01:47, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Constructed languages template. |
|
![]() | This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||
|
Clickpop and others, will you please stop editwarring? Whether you like it or not, Newspeak is generally considered a constructed language. For your information: a constructed language is not by definition a language with a fully invented grammar and/or a fully invented vocabulary. So indeed, Newspeak is a different beast from Ithkuil and Esperanto, but that doesn't change anything. There are different genres in conlanging, including the so-called subset languages and superset languages. An example of the former is Basic English: this language is entirely English, yet, it consists solely of a small part of the English language. Basic English has a list of allowed words, which is the work of one person, and as such it is a constructed language, a "controlled natural language" to be precise. Superset languages are usually a set of vocabulary embedded in an existing (natural) language. Well-known examples are Newspeak, Nadsat and Lingua Ignota. Again, the grammar and the base language in these cases are English (or in the case of Ignota, Latin), but the set of additional vocabulary is created by one person, and therefore "constructed". If you ask: How do I say "I love you"? in Basic English, Nadsat or Newspeak, you'd be asking the wrong question, because these are no languages that pretend to have an invented word for everything. We only meet Nadsat or Newspeak when we stumble upon a word from the list. The point is, however, this type of languages are generally considered types of conlangs. See for example constructed language, the list of constructed languages and the Portal. You may agree with that or not, but Wikipedia is not there to set a policy. Therefore, I ask you to provide evidence that Newspeak (and Nadsat, for that matter) are not counted among the constructed languages after all, instead of starting an edit war over it. — IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
The template says Mänti is one of the most notable conlangs. If that is so, why does it not have its own article, or even a well-written section in Daniel Tammet? Is it really that notable? 151.203.254.81 ( talk) 20:41, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
Per http://www.suburbandestiny.com/?p=611 , there is no grammar yet available for Na'vi, only a limited word list built around the needs of a single film. Requires more evidence that it's listable under the criteria on Constructed language, far less a "notable" example of these. Regards, David. Harami2000 ( talk) 22:07, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Let's get this straight: a constructed language is any language that has not evolved naturally, but has its origins on the drawing board. It has nothing to do with questions like: where the vocabulary comes from (a priori/a posteriori and all that), how complete the language is, etc. Personally, I know nothing about Na'vi at all (hadn't even heard of it before this article came up), but from what I can see, it definitely qualifies as a conlang, and it definitely has some degree of notability.
However, here we have a problem. Wikipedia has certain criteria that decide whether a subject is notable enough be included or not. But in this template we are dealing with something extremely vague like "most notable conlangs". And that's what makes this a difficult discussion, because there are no criteria that decide what makes a notable subject more notable than another notable subject. All languages listed here are definitely notable enough for inclusion in the project as a whole, but if you ask me, the choice of what makes these languages more notable than the rest is completely arbitrary. Maybe we should simply list Esperanto, Interlingua, Ido, Volapük, Quenya and Sindarin only, and leave the rest to links to categories? Or work with templates dealing with subcategories of conlangs instead? Just a thought, of course. Maybe something to discuss with the Wikiproject Constructed Languages. —
IJzeren Jan
Uszkiełtu? 11:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Is Mirad notable (let alone "most notable")? The article is very thin and implies it is a work in progress. — Tamfang ( talk) 19:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
Is there any sense in splitting the 'notable constructed languages' into two separate sublists, one for languages that have been constructed for use in fictional realms (Tolkein, Star Trek etc.) and others that were intended as a real-life exercise? It seems a pretty natural split: maybe something like Esperanto should be distinct from Klingon. I don't know. Does that skirt too close to WP:SYNTH? Just an idea. Opinions? — Tom Morris 12:35, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
There are a lot of completely unnotable languages on this infobox that have never been talked about outside of conlang mailing lists. Many of them were probably added to the infobox by their authors, while others are obscure curiosities that don't really belong in Wikipedia. There should not be this many articles about individual constructed languages: imo there should be Latin Without Inflections, Volapuk, Esperanto, Ido, Quenya/Sindarin, Interlingua, Klingon, Loglan, lojban, Dothraki and Na'vi. Throw *truly* up-and-coming languages like Láadan and Toki Pona in there too if you want. Why not start a conlang wiki that lists any and every conlang in existence? Kraŭs ( talk) 20:40, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Today I've removed two sections from the template: grammars of individual languages and language comparisons. This template is not meant to provide links to all conlang-related articles, it is not even meant to include every individual conlang. The links in question are in fact expanded subsections and can be find in the articles they belong to. Other templates for language groups don't include this kind of articles either. — IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 11:57, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
Fushi conlang is created in 2 of july of 2024, 40 consonantes and 8 vowels 2800:A4:1546:5200:C48:62F9:A83:8612 ( talk) 01:47, 24 January 2024 (UTC)