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That all sounds good. On the template, coitus interruptus is considered a form of masturbation by the Catholic Church, and is not part of NFP. Everything else I really like. Lyrl 00:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The 'Natural' heading seems to work. There is even an article natural birth control if you wanted to link to that. Lyrl 01:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there some significance to the fact that some have () and some have {}? — Omegatron 02:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Separately I think any method undergoing research and not yet on open market in places this English Wikipedia likely to be read (US UK, Ireland, Australia, NZ etc etc) should not be added to this template that in essence is a summary of common & established methods. David Ruben Talk 02:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Fertility Awareness does not belong under Natural Family Planning. NFP is a religious form of FA. Both methods use several different fertility indicators together to determine fertile/infertile times of a woman's cycle. The only difference is that NFP requires abstinence during fertile times when used for birth control, and FA allows for barrier methods during those times. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib) 12:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I played around with the organization some more. Feel free to tinker and talk. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib)
I removed Natural Family Planning from the list of Natural methods, as Natural Family Planning is not a specific method of birth control. All forms of Natural Family Planning are already listed under Natural. Joie de Vivre 21:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Because Wikipedia has only one sterilization article, the template now has three links to the same article (vasectomy and tubal ligation are just redirects). Is this to avoid confusion by users (they can click on whatever they want to)? Lyrl 22:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib) 12:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I know this is a controversial topic, which is why I'm opening the discussion on the talk page, not by changing the template!
From the infanticide article:
As this clearly shows, although infanticide should not be used as birth control, it sometimes is, and definitely has been. I therefore suggest that infanticide be listed in the template. Comments? -- Slashme 08:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The "Hormonal" line is now so long it wraps around to a partial second line on my monitor. The line spacing is different with the wraparound vs. a formal break, and it looks a little odd.
I'm not sure how to rearrange to make it look better, though. I've played around with it a little bit and haven't come up with anything satisfactory. Lyrl Talk Contribs 21:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
In response to the recent edit attempting to make Essure its own listing: I, personally, think of "tubal ligation" as physically disconnecting the tubes, whether through cutting or cauterizing or clamping. Blocking of the tubes, as with Essure or with quinacrine, I think of as alternate methods of female sterilization. I gather that the recent editor shared my view.
Perhaps we could rename the links "Female" and "Male" instead of "tubal ligation" and "vasectomy"? Lyrl Talk Contribs 22:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the other entries under Drug navigational boxes, I discovered several formats that are easier to edit, as well as being visually clearer. I chose a simple format and applied it here. I think it will clear up many of the spacing problems that people have been discussing. Joie de Vivre 21:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I like DavidRuben's ordering. My problems with the previous formatting had actually all been resolved, but I like that this new format is more flexible with regard to future additions.
On the sterilization - should we really includ hysterectomy and castration as birth control options? I know they result in sterility, but does anyone (human) actually go through those procedures for the primary purpose of preventing pregnancy? Similarly with oophorectomy and penectomy - those procedures result in sterility, but are not used for the primary purpose of birth control, and so in my opinion should also not be in this list. Lyrl Talk Contribs 03:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The logic used in removing hysterectomy and castration from the list was that birth control is a side effect of these operations. In accordance with this logic, I have removed Celibacy from this list, leaving Sexual abstinence. Certainly, some people might maintain sexual abstinence primarily for birth control. However, if you look at the Celibacy main article, birth control is not listed as one of the primary reasons for maintaining celibacy. The state of celibacy is associated with deep religious, social, or personal convictions which are unrelated to birth control. As in the case of hysterectomy or castration, birth control seems to be a side effect of celibacy. Sexual abstinence is a more accurate description of the behavior of those who abstain from sex primarily for birth control, and it remains in the list. Joie de Vivre 19:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I see there being a major distinction between physical and behavioral methods of birth control, a distinction supported in the listing of methods in the Birth Control main article. Physical birth control methods work to physically interfere with fertility, fertilization or conception. Behavioral (including "natural") birth control methods make no change to fertility, but require users to manage or halt their sexual behavior in order to avoid conception. This distinction is currently reflected by placing the Behavioral methods at bottom. Joie de Vivre 18:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I have no opinion on them behavoiral methods being set apart. I don't see any benefit to isolating them further than just on their own line, but don't see any harm in it, either. I also have no opinion on whether they are on top or bottom of the infobox. But if the rest of the list is ordered with respect to physical invasiveness and reversibility, putting behavoiral methods next to sterilization looks odd and is something I oppose. If the rest of the list is ordered in a different way (alphabetically?) then my opinion might be different.
Psychological "invasiveness", a.k.a. acceptability of a method to a particular couple, varies widely - and this is not only true of behavoiral methods, but of physical methods as well. But physical invasiveness is easy to measure. While many couples may find sterilization, for example, less invasive to their sex life than barrier methods, we seem to have agreed that, physically, surgery is more invasive than barriers, and ordered the list appropriately. Behavoiral methods are most similar to barriers with respect to reversibility - every sex act has the choice of whether to use the method or not. Unlike systemic methods, and to a greater extent IUDs, and ultimately sterilization. Because they are most similar to barriers both in terms of reversibility and physical invasiveness, behavoiral methods should be placed next to barriers, not sterilization, in the list. Lyrl Talk Contribs 00:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Faithfully sic] following the Neutral point of view (NPOV) official Wikipedia policy, this template highlights Natural Family Planning as "Natural" (even if a digital basal body temperature thermometer, a commercial ovulation predictor kit, and a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet or PDA program is used to intentionally plan to have non-procreative sex).
As clearly explained by The Couple to Couple League:
Contraception is " unnatural by definition in that the sexual act is inherently procreative, or at least should not be altered in such a way as to prevent the natural consequence of possible pregnancy." [2]
Following the official Church teaching of its celibate Latin Rite Popes, this template should note that coitus interruptus/ Onanism is contraception, unnatural, and a mortal sin.
This (NPOV) template should not merely highlight that ONLY abstinence (or periodic abstinence provided it does not lower "the number of births in their family below the morally correct level") and lactational amenorrhea are Natural, it should also explicitly highlight ALL contraception as Unnatural. 68.255.17.155 21:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with your labeling. It is superfluous and WP:POV to label only behavioral methods as "Natural", thereby implying other methods are " Unnatural". 68.255.17.155 22:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't find the link to "natural birth control" useful. I also see how labeling some methods natural (which, although intended to be neutral, does have a positive connotation) will be seen by some people as implying other methods are unnatural. Considering the non-utility of the "natural" wikilink, I support removing this minor POV from the list. Lyrl Talk Contribs 00:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed these specific types of FA because Fertility Awareness is the term used to describe these methods, and a link is provided to this article. I agree that these methods should be given attention, but I feel that the Fertility Awareness main page is a better place to do so. I have requested, on that Talk page, that Lyrl or other knowledgeable users will help to make the FA article a centralized location where the various FA methods are compared and contrasted. Joie de Vivre 14:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Is desire to avoid pregnancy a primary motivation for anal sex, oral sex, or masturbation? Also, these methods may also be included within the topic of outercourse, as Planned Parenthood does. Lyrl Talk Contribs 01:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
That all sounds good. On the template, coitus interruptus is considered a form of masturbation by the Catholic Church, and is not part of NFP. Everything else I really like. Lyrl 00:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
The 'Natural' heading seems to work. There is even an article natural birth control if you wanted to link to that. Lyrl 01:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Is there some significance to the fact that some have () and some have {}? — Omegatron 02:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Separately I think any method undergoing research and not yet on open market in places this English Wikipedia likely to be read (US UK, Ireland, Australia, NZ etc etc) should not be added to this template that in essence is a summary of common & established methods. David Ruben Talk 02:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Fertility Awareness does not belong under Natural Family Planning. NFP is a religious form of FA. Both methods use several different fertility indicators together to determine fertile/infertile times of a woman's cycle. The only difference is that NFP requires abstinence during fertile times when used for birth control, and FA allows for barrier methods during those times. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib) 12:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I played around with the organization some more. Feel free to tinker and talk. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib)
I removed Natural Family Planning from the list of Natural methods, as Natural Family Planning is not a specific method of birth control. All forms of Natural Family Planning are already listed under Natural. Joie de Vivre 21:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Because Wikipedia has only one sterilization article, the template now has three links to the same article (vasectomy and tubal ligation are just redirects). Is this to avoid confusion by users (they can click on whatever they want to)? Lyrl 22:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek ( Talk/ Contrib) 12:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I know this is a controversial topic, which is why I'm opening the discussion on the talk page, not by changing the template!
From the infanticide article:
As this clearly shows, although infanticide should not be used as birth control, it sometimes is, and definitely has been. I therefore suggest that infanticide be listed in the template. Comments? -- Slashme 08:34, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The "Hormonal" line is now so long it wraps around to a partial second line on my monitor. The line spacing is different with the wraparound vs. a formal break, and it looks a little odd.
I'm not sure how to rearrange to make it look better, though. I've played around with it a little bit and haven't come up with anything satisfactory. Lyrl Talk Contribs 21:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
In response to the recent edit attempting to make Essure its own listing: I, personally, think of "tubal ligation" as physically disconnecting the tubes, whether through cutting or cauterizing or clamping. Blocking of the tubes, as with Essure or with quinacrine, I think of as alternate methods of female sterilization. I gather that the recent editor shared my view.
Perhaps we could rename the links "Female" and "Male" instead of "tubal ligation" and "vasectomy"? Lyrl Talk Contribs 22:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the other entries under Drug navigational boxes, I discovered several formats that are easier to edit, as well as being visually clearer. I chose a simple format and applied it here. I think it will clear up many of the spacing problems that people have been discussing. Joie de Vivre 21:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I like DavidRuben's ordering. My problems with the previous formatting had actually all been resolved, but I like that this new format is more flexible with regard to future additions.
On the sterilization - should we really includ hysterectomy and castration as birth control options? I know they result in sterility, but does anyone (human) actually go through those procedures for the primary purpose of preventing pregnancy? Similarly with oophorectomy and penectomy - those procedures result in sterility, but are not used for the primary purpose of birth control, and so in my opinion should also not be in this list. Lyrl Talk Contribs 03:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The logic used in removing hysterectomy and castration from the list was that birth control is a side effect of these operations. In accordance with this logic, I have removed Celibacy from this list, leaving Sexual abstinence. Certainly, some people might maintain sexual abstinence primarily for birth control. However, if you look at the Celibacy main article, birth control is not listed as one of the primary reasons for maintaining celibacy. The state of celibacy is associated with deep religious, social, or personal convictions which are unrelated to birth control. As in the case of hysterectomy or castration, birth control seems to be a side effect of celibacy. Sexual abstinence is a more accurate description of the behavior of those who abstain from sex primarily for birth control, and it remains in the list. Joie de Vivre 19:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I see there being a major distinction between physical and behavioral methods of birth control, a distinction supported in the listing of methods in the Birth Control main article. Physical birth control methods work to physically interfere with fertility, fertilization or conception. Behavioral (including "natural") birth control methods make no change to fertility, but require users to manage or halt their sexual behavior in order to avoid conception. This distinction is currently reflected by placing the Behavioral methods at bottom. Joie de Vivre 18:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I have no opinion on them behavoiral methods being set apart. I don't see any benefit to isolating them further than just on their own line, but don't see any harm in it, either. I also have no opinion on whether they are on top or bottom of the infobox. But if the rest of the list is ordered with respect to physical invasiveness and reversibility, putting behavoiral methods next to sterilization looks odd and is something I oppose. If the rest of the list is ordered in a different way (alphabetically?) then my opinion might be different.
Psychological "invasiveness", a.k.a. acceptability of a method to a particular couple, varies widely - and this is not only true of behavoiral methods, but of physical methods as well. But physical invasiveness is easy to measure. While many couples may find sterilization, for example, less invasive to their sex life than barrier methods, we seem to have agreed that, physically, surgery is more invasive than barriers, and ordered the list appropriately. Behavoiral methods are most similar to barriers with respect to reversibility - every sex act has the choice of whether to use the method or not. Unlike systemic methods, and to a greater extent IUDs, and ultimately sterilization. Because they are most similar to barriers both in terms of reversibility and physical invasiveness, behavoiral methods should be placed next to barriers, not sterilization, in the list. Lyrl Talk Contribs 00:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Faithfully sic] following the Neutral point of view (NPOV) official Wikipedia policy, this template highlights Natural Family Planning as "Natural" (even if a digital basal body temperature thermometer, a commercial ovulation predictor kit, and a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet or PDA program is used to intentionally plan to have non-procreative sex).
As clearly explained by The Couple to Couple League:
Contraception is " unnatural by definition in that the sexual act is inherently procreative, or at least should not be altered in such a way as to prevent the natural consequence of possible pregnancy." [2]
Following the official Church teaching of its celibate Latin Rite Popes, this template should note that coitus interruptus/ Onanism is contraception, unnatural, and a mortal sin.
This (NPOV) template should not merely highlight that ONLY abstinence (or periodic abstinence provided it does not lower "the number of births in their family below the morally correct level") and lactational amenorrhea are Natural, it should also explicitly highlight ALL contraception as Unnatural. 68.255.17.155 21:23, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with your labeling. It is superfluous and WP:POV to label only behavioral methods as "Natural", thereby implying other methods are " Unnatural". 68.255.17.155 22:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't find the link to "natural birth control" useful. I also see how labeling some methods natural (which, although intended to be neutral, does have a positive connotation) will be seen by some people as implying other methods are unnatural. Considering the non-utility of the "natural" wikilink, I support removing this minor POV from the list. Lyrl Talk Contribs 00:41, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed these specific types of FA because Fertility Awareness is the term used to describe these methods, and a link is provided to this article. I agree that these methods should be given attention, but I feel that the Fertility Awareness main page is a better place to do so. I have requested, on that Talk page, that Lyrl or other knowledgeable users will help to make the FA article a centralized location where the various FA methods are compared and contrasted. Joie de Vivre 14:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
Is desire to avoid pregnancy a primary motivation for anal sex, oral sex, or masturbation? Also, these methods may also be included within the topic of outercourse, as Planned Parenthood does. Lyrl Talk Contribs 01:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |