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A classification from 1953 - predating The Languages of Africa, the discovery of Tetserret, or most published Berber dictionaries - by a person whose name is barely known in Berber studies; or a classification from 1999, by a person most of whose scholarly output is devoted to Berber and historical linguistics? The choice should be quite obvious. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 11:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
For the record, the Cline article that Omar-Toons cited for his preferred classification ( http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.soas.ac.uk/stable/3628698):
I do have sympathy with the idea that we should follow Kossmann more closely and split the misleading "Eastern Berber" heading currently used. Sending this template back to 1953 is not the way forward. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 08:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Lengthy further clarification, especially for those unfamiliar with historical linguistics: Kossmann (1999), Essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère, is a book entirely devoted to establishing sound correspondences in Berber and reconstructing proto-Berber phonology through the comparative method. All natural spoken languages derive from earlier languages through change. When one original language breaks up into several languages (or dialects) all descended from it, we say that they are members of the same subgroup. Of course, each of these languages can break up in turn, in which case you get subgroups within subgroups. The way you find out which members of a given set of languages share the most recent common ancestor - which ones are brothers vs which ones are cousins, so to speak - is to look for changes from the original that only some of them share: shared innovations. Ie, when two dialects have both changed the same original sound to the same new sound, this is reason to believe that they are more closely related than either is to a third dialect which has not done so. If a whole bunch of shared innovations identify the same set of languages, then you can identify them as a subgroup. Importantly, shared retentions (things that have not changed in either language) do not give you evidence for subgrouping.
Kossmann uses the comparative method, and takes advantage of the vast amount of material published on Berber since 1953. Cline gives us no reason to believe he (or his source) does the former, and certainly can't have done the latter. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 08:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
@Lameen: I have a no preference for neither of the versions (both are imperfect), I was pointing out some observations. I did not suggest that historical tribal categories should be the basis of classification but they are relevant at least to what you said; "He certainly does not subscribe to the idea that Masmouda and "Senhaja" belong together" whilst some historical Senhaja are grouped with Masmouda in both versions (
Central Atlas Tamazight and
Senhaja de Srair). Plus historically Senhaja were divided into other groups who lived in different geographical locations and they likely evolved separately so that doesn't contradict modern-day classifications anyway.
Yes only a part of Figuig is Zenaga (Senhaja) but this part happens to be 80% of the population, overall the inhabitants are a mix of Zenata and Senhaja. Kabyle and Tarifit are to a certain degree mutually intelligible, (this is not only my informed opinion but supported by Saddiqi (1998)
pp125) so it is legitimate to question their belonging to different categories. That being said, I think only sourced classifications should be used on wiki however imperfect they might be. So Kossman's is good for me.
Tachfin (
talk)
08:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Seriously, as specialists didn't find a consensual classification see p.8 for example (in French), I don't think that we (Wikipedians) will find it. I give up since we will obtain no result (that is sure) and that we can't find a classification that matches ethnic/historical facts by this way (otherwise it will be a PoV by taking a specified classification without taking another one in consideration or an OR).
Can't we, to make it neutral, list all Northern Berber languages in the same list?
Example:
Omar-Toons ( talk) 22:37, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
|
A classification from 1953 - predating The Languages of Africa, the discovery of Tetserret, or most published Berber dictionaries - by a person whose name is barely known in Berber studies; or a classification from 1999, by a person most of whose scholarly output is devoted to Berber and historical linguistics? The choice should be quite obvious. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 11:37, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
For the record, the Cline article that Omar-Toons cited for his preferred classification ( http://www.jstor.org.ezproxy.soas.ac.uk/stable/3628698):
I do have sympathy with the idea that we should follow Kossmann more closely and split the misleading "Eastern Berber" heading currently used. Sending this template back to 1953 is not the way forward. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 08:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Lengthy further clarification, especially for those unfamiliar with historical linguistics: Kossmann (1999), Essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère, is a book entirely devoted to establishing sound correspondences in Berber and reconstructing proto-Berber phonology through the comparative method. All natural spoken languages derive from earlier languages through change. When one original language breaks up into several languages (or dialects) all descended from it, we say that they are members of the same subgroup. Of course, each of these languages can break up in turn, in which case you get subgroups within subgroups. The way you find out which members of a given set of languages share the most recent common ancestor - which ones are brothers vs which ones are cousins, so to speak - is to look for changes from the original that only some of them share: shared innovations. Ie, when two dialects have both changed the same original sound to the same new sound, this is reason to believe that they are more closely related than either is to a third dialect which has not done so. If a whole bunch of shared innovations identify the same set of languages, then you can identify them as a subgroup. Importantly, shared retentions (things that have not changed in either language) do not give you evidence for subgrouping.
Kossmann uses the comparative method, and takes advantage of the vast amount of material published on Berber since 1953. Cline gives us no reason to believe he (or his source) does the former, and certainly can't have done the latter. - Lameen Souag ( talk) 08:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
@Lameen: I have a no preference for neither of the versions (both are imperfect), I was pointing out some observations. I did not suggest that historical tribal categories should be the basis of classification but they are relevant at least to what you said; "He certainly does not subscribe to the idea that Masmouda and "Senhaja" belong together" whilst some historical Senhaja are grouped with Masmouda in both versions (
Central Atlas Tamazight and
Senhaja de Srair). Plus historically Senhaja were divided into other groups who lived in different geographical locations and they likely evolved separately so that doesn't contradict modern-day classifications anyway.
Yes only a part of Figuig is Zenaga (Senhaja) but this part happens to be 80% of the population, overall the inhabitants are a mix of Zenata and Senhaja. Kabyle and Tarifit are to a certain degree mutually intelligible, (this is not only my informed opinion but supported by Saddiqi (1998)
pp125) so it is legitimate to question their belonging to different categories. That being said, I think only sourced classifications should be used on wiki however imperfect they might be. So Kossman's is good for me.
Tachfin (
talk)
08:19, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Seriously, as specialists didn't find a consensual classification see p.8 for example (in French), I don't think that we (Wikipedians) will find it. I give up since we will obtain no result (that is sure) and that we can't find a classification that matches ethnic/historical facts by this way (otherwise it will be a PoV by taking a specified classification without taking another one in consideration or an OR).
Can't we, to make it neutral, list all Northern Berber languages in the same list?
Example:
Omar-Toons ( talk) 22:37, 24 October 2011 (UTC)