This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.
Against such a change. Don't make the reader click twice for a collapsed template. Don't make the most commonly used names less accessible and less visible. --
Yellowdesk00:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I like this version. It is more consistent in that each party has a single line, rather than the Dem.'s and Rep.'s occupying multiple lines, while still being compliant with the
WP:UNDUE policy. Putting the info into "boxes" under the Dem. and Rep. headings is also less confusing, IMHO, than using seperate lines. It definitely has my vote.--
JayJasper13:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. The current template is both simple and clear already. Let's not go over-complicating things for the sake of unnecessary subcategories.
Chris Cunningham11:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Support, the clearest and most concise version thus far, IMHO. Don't forget to list the "Candidates" sub-heading after the Independents heading as well.--
JayJasper21:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment, an
older version of the template used the difference between bolding and plain text to show that the lines for "Candidates" and "Withdrawn" under "Democratic" and "Republican" were actually subgroups for the major party lines. The right-justification helped, too. Why can't we go back to that? It would eliminate the impression that each of the lines for Republican and Democratic are of equal importance, but would be minimally bulky.
PubliusFL22:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Redundantly having "Candidates" shown five plus times in row is needless, and amounts to clutter. They're obviously candidates, and the caption is not needed to distinguish something. the captions are needed for two major parties, which actually have different kinds of links to distinguish. --
Yellowdesk05:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Of course he does. That's why his article was created fourteen minutes before your comment here. See the comment above the article source.
Chris Cunningham21:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This candidate, Stephen Paul Adams,calling himself
Steve Adams is a case in point for establishing minimum standards for this template. The Federal Elections reporting shows zero contributions or expenditures in their database, see
http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/com_detail/C00438036. Another web page shows receipt of $115 as of August 2007. See
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/candidates.phtml?sort=a. It's true he has filed with the FEC, along with about 200 or more other people. I don't think it makes sense to bother putting this candidate, and anyone who cannot raise enought money to staff a campaign on this template. This is not an index to all candidates, but rather for candidates of some significance. --
Yellowdesk01:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Wrong, if you have a problem with the notability of this candidate, nominate it for deletion. For now it should remain because he is a candidate and he does have an article for now.--
SouthernTexas01:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
As I said, that standard is not sufficient for this template. The leading reason is that the person's page may exist for other notability reasons, unrelated to candidacy. I think it's time for a policy discussion here on minimum standards. --
Yellowdesk02:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
But what constitutes notability in a campaign is open for wide interpretation. If an individual is notable enough to have their own article regardless of their campaign they are a candidate and therefore shall be included on the template. Otherwise it will create edit wars over notability and will subtract from editors contributing constructively to the encyclopedia.--
SouthernTexas02:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
There are some notability standards that reflect public support and interest, and not really subject disputes of interpretation: the amount of donations received, and expenditures made, and these are quite nicely publicly available. A threshold like $50,000 would set a suitable standard that allows rather minor candidates, but excludes those that cannot figure out how to persuade 2,000 people to give $25 each to the campaign, for example. Recall that we're a nation of millions. This is the threshold where electonic filing is required, so the data is well organized and quickly available via the FEC's web site, here:
http://www.fec.gov/press/bkgnd/pres_cf/2008filings.html --
Yellowdesk04:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
That kind of information is constantly changing causing us to constantly have to change the template and complicates matters and is sure to cause more disputes. It is also not the best gauge or way to categorize a candidate since it only reflects monetary aspects. I really don't see the problem with my criteria because it simplifies matters. Its not the template's job to determine what is notable but to present and provide a link to candidates that have articles on wikipedia. Let AFD sort out notablity.--
SouthernTexas21:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I support SouthernTexas' reasoning on this subject. It was pointed out in an earlier discussion on this page that the navbox is intended to be an article map, plain and simple. Why make it more complicated than that?--
JayJasper13:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's the deletion history on that person's article
This is good because it shows the system is working, we don't sort out notability but the AFD will. We put articles on this template that pertain to the presidential election and that includes all candidates that have articles.--
SouthernTexas20:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I would call the "system" proposed a "cookoo-clock" listing. Whenever some also-ran candidate's volunteer puts up an article, it gets listed here for a few weeks until the article is expunged (and the bird goes back into the clock), until the next round of listing and delisting: a demonstration that the standard proposed by
Southern Texas is not up to the task at hand. --
Yellowdesk22:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't create controversy and it works, so if its called a "cookoo-clock" system I will support that nickname because it is one of efficiency. It supports the belief that templates are to serve as an article map, directing readers to all articles that exist on a topic. For "candidates" if an article exists then it should be mapped, otherwise the template is failing to meet its objective. Articles are created and deleted everyday, this is wikipedia and we must follow the flow of the encyclopedia on this template.--
SouthernTexas04:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the
current talk page.
Against such a change. Don't make the reader click twice for a collapsed template. Don't make the most commonly used names less accessible and less visible. --
Yellowdesk00:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I like this version. It is more consistent in that each party has a single line, rather than the Dem.'s and Rep.'s occupying multiple lines, while still being compliant with the
WP:UNDUE policy. Putting the info into "boxes" under the Dem. and Rep. headings is also less confusing, IMHO, than using seperate lines. It definitely has my vote.--
JayJasper13:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. The current template is both simple and clear already. Let's not go over-complicating things for the sake of unnecessary subcategories.
Chris Cunningham11:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Support, the clearest and most concise version thus far, IMHO. Don't forget to list the "Candidates" sub-heading after the Independents heading as well.--
JayJasper21:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment, an
older version of the template used the difference between bolding and plain text to show that the lines for "Candidates" and "Withdrawn" under "Democratic" and "Republican" were actually subgroups for the major party lines. The right-justification helped, too. Why can't we go back to that? It would eliminate the impression that each of the lines for Republican and Democratic are of equal importance, but would be minimally bulky.
PubliusFL22:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Redundantly having "Candidates" shown five plus times in row is needless, and amounts to clutter. They're obviously candidates, and the caption is not needed to distinguish something. the captions are needed for two major parties, which actually have different kinds of links to distinguish. --
Yellowdesk05:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Of course he does. That's why his article was created fourteen minutes before your comment here. See the comment above the article source.
Chris Cunningham21:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
This candidate, Stephen Paul Adams,calling himself
Steve Adams is a case in point for establishing minimum standards for this template. The Federal Elections reporting shows zero contributions or expenditures in their database, see
http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/com_detail/C00438036. Another web page shows receipt of $115 as of August 2007. See
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/P08/candidates.phtml?sort=a. It's true he has filed with the FEC, along with about 200 or more other people. I don't think it makes sense to bother putting this candidate, and anyone who cannot raise enought money to staff a campaign on this template. This is not an index to all candidates, but rather for candidates of some significance. --
Yellowdesk01:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Wrong, if you have a problem with the notability of this candidate, nominate it for deletion. For now it should remain because he is a candidate and he does have an article for now.--
SouthernTexas01:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
As I said, that standard is not sufficient for this template. The leading reason is that the person's page may exist for other notability reasons, unrelated to candidacy. I think it's time for a policy discussion here on minimum standards. --
Yellowdesk02:08, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
But what constitutes notability in a campaign is open for wide interpretation. If an individual is notable enough to have their own article regardless of their campaign they are a candidate and therefore shall be included on the template. Otherwise it will create edit wars over notability and will subtract from editors contributing constructively to the encyclopedia.--
SouthernTexas02:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
There are some notability standards that reflect public support and interest, and not really subject disputes of interpretation: the amount of donations received, and expenditures made, and these are quite nicely publicly available. A threshold like $50,000 would set a suitable standard that allows rather minor candidates, but excludes those that cannot figure out how to persuade 2,000 people to give $25 each to the campaign, for example. Recall that we're a nation of millions. This is the threshold where electonic filing is required, so the data is well organized and quickly available via the FEC's web site, here:
http://www.fec.gov/press/bkgnd/pres_cf/2008filings.html --
Yellowdesk04:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
That kind of information is constantly changing causing us to constantly have to change the template and complicates matters and is sure to cause more disputes. It is also not the best gauge or way to categorize a candidate since it only reflects monetary aspects. I really don't see the problem with my criteria because it simplifies matters. Its not the template's job to determine what is notable but to present and provide a link to candidates that have articles on wikipedia. Let AFD sort out notablity.--
SouthernTexas21:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
I support SouthernTexas' reasoning on this subject. It was pointed out in an earlier discussion on this page that the navbox is intended to be an article map, plain and simple. Why make it more complicated than that?--
JayJasper13:20, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Here's the deletion history on that person's article
This is good because it shows the system is working, we don't sort out notability but the AFD will. We put articles on this template that pertain to the presidential election and that includes all candidates that have articles.--
SouthernTexas20:33, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
I would call the "system" proposed a "cookoo-clock" listing. Whenever some also-ran candidate's volunteer puts up an article, it gets listed here for a few weeks until the article is expunged (and the bird goes back into the clock), until the next round of listing and delisting: a demonstration that the standard proposed by
Southern Texas is not up to the task at hand. --
Yellowdesk22:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't create controversy and it works, so if its called a "cookoo-clock" system I will support that nickname because it is one of efficiency. It supports the belief that templates are to serve as an article map, directing readers to all articles that exist on a topic. For "candidates" if an article exists then it should be mapped, otherwise the template is failing to meet its objective. Articles are created and deleted everyday, this is wikipedia and we must follow the flow of the encyclopedia on this template.--
SouthernTexas04:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)