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Nardog: If I add relevant citations to this, would you be willing to restore the template to articles you deleted it from? Most of the information comes from the ANAE, with a map covering all of North America and giving a pretty comprehensive overview on p. 182. I can get into specifics, but it'll take some time to find all the precise page numbers. Is there anything else that you feel makes this "poorly sourced and all over the place"? I'm happy to also reduce the number of example words. Wolfdog ( talk) 00:33, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
p. 182 doesn't provide verification for what exactly each symbol indicates, neither really does the rest of the book. There are often descriptions of vowel qualities, but these can be fairly broad too, such as, for a New Yorker
The tense /æh/ tokens are concentrated in upper-mid position. Is "upper-mid" what we on Wikipedia call "close-mid" (i.e. [e]) or [ɪ] or something else? And the fact that there is an an in-glide to me means a diphthong should be represented, ending in a schwa. Anyway, these kinds of reasons are why I tried to keep to a simple system here of [eə] for extremely tense, [ɛə] for intermediately tense, and [æ] for lax. Any thoughts on transcription here? Wolfdog ( talk) 18:17, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm going to go back to the "free" and "checked" formatWhy? I haven't heard of this usage of "checked" and "free" and it's not even the sense described by our article, Wells (1982), or ANAE itself on p. 12. /æ/ is always "checked" in that sense, and even when it's applied to /æC/ it still doesn't mirror the usage of the earlier version of this template. Nardog ( talk) 10:49, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
/æ/ is always "checked" in that sense.
"tense" or "raised", "intermediate", etc.method, but then we don't get the phonetic qualities of the vowel, which can differ pretty substantially; for example, some allophones are merely raised, while others are raised plus diphthongized/lengthened. I'd be happy to go either way. There are of courses sources I could look into beyond ANAE that could provide more specific IPA transcriptions. (That's for example, where the odd-looking Southern transcription came from: a source by Erik Thomas.) I'd be happy to find a way to represent phonemic vs. not too. That Sandbox is where I'll continue to try out stuff. Thanks for the input; keep it coming. Wolfdog ( talk) 16:12, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Checked and free vowels seemed to be our closest equivalentNot remotely. If that dichotomy was applied to /æC/, /æC#/ would be considered a free environment, not checked. "Open" vs. "closed" isn't without problems either, as not only does it depend on the approach to syllabification (Merriam-Webster, CEPD, and LDP would all give you different answers), but also e.g. random is syllabified as /ˈræn.dəm/, i.e. with an open /æC/, according to MOP-based theories, but it seems to belong to the "closed" group. "Prevocalic" and "non-prevocalic" are what they truly mean by "open" and "closed" as far as I can tell.
My major edits and additions of citations are basically done. Feel free to discuss any other desired changes, suggestions, or lingering questions here. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
before voiced velars, /g/ and /N/, ha[s] up-glides, toward [j]. This glide reversal causes a change across subsystems, so that short /æg/ effectively becomes long, up-gliding /eyg/, merging with the /eyg/ of plague, vague. Specifically, though, the description seems to come from Labov 181 (sorry about that) for the haggle-Hegel merger: another variant of course. Wolfdog ( talk) 20:46, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
the description seems to come from Labov 181 (sorry about that)Why the apology? Actually, can we dispense with Boberg (2008) and cite the entire thing to ANAE? That would be simpler, as the articles where this template would be used most likely already cite ANAE, but not Boberg. Nardog ( talk) 02:49, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
we're still using [æ] and [eə] as shorthands, which columns concern you? Wolfdog ( talk) 13:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
I know you're not aesthetically pleased by the overstuffed GenAm columnI don't know where you got such an idea... I just followed ANAE p. 183: "The Inland North, the Midland, the South, the Mid-Atlantic States, and western Pennsylvania show that the vowels before the velar nasal are significantly lower than before the apical nasal" (which means I should have split Midland too). I don't think we need more than one example of words that don't differ after /æ/. Nardog ( talk) 07:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
rid of the lengthy note(I assume you mean the unwiedly section of notes about Philly, NYC, etc.)? Wolfdog ( talk) 15:19, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
the quality of /æ/ is... more mid before /b, d, ɡ, dʒ/, it's really "before /d/" that appears categorically as mid (that is: equal to or higher than all other non-prenasal phonetic environments) across all of ANAE's charts for regional speakers in this camp, including those from Columbus (Midland), Boston, and Pittsburgh, plus (in non-ANAE sources), New Jersey and Cooperstown, NY. Other than briefly noting this phenomenon with /d/, however, the ANAE doesn't dedicate a lot of writing to it. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:38, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
you feel unconvinced about exact phonetic notationIt's not a matter of being convinced, we just can't say anything the source doesn't. Again, is [ə] in [eə, ɛə] in each cell verified? Can it be? If not, we have no standing to keep it. Nardog ( talk) 15:01, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Can't we add it to the table, per Ae tensing#Australian English? Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) ( talk) 06:16, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Lembit Staan: Hi, can you name your exact problems please? You can see that Nardog and I have already had a long discussion about relevant sources above. Thanks. Wolfdog ( talk) 00:54, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
@ Nardog, would it be okay if the footnote said "Some New Yorkers may have [ɛə] instead of [æ] before /ŋ/ (...)", instead of what it said earlier? This is closer to the source; my writing "raised [ɛə]" was a mistake. Tyrui ( talk) 07:34, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
the Canadian column of the /æ/ raising chart seems incorrect to me, specifically the bag, dragon sets (pre-vocalic and non-prevocalic /g/). I read the source (Boberg 2008) and it seems to be to be showing a use of ɛ mainly in the prairies, not in "ontario, quebec, or the maritimes" which imo is specific enough to not be the best transcription for a broad general Canadian such as in this chart. I don't feel comfortable changing it because I know there are a lot of regional Canadian accents and I might stand to correction but anecdotally I've never heard this pronunciation in my life. (note this is distinction from leg, egg as /ejg/ which IS certainly common). Does anyone have any other sources on this? Phantasmofaman ( talk) 19:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)
This template does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||
|
Nardog: If I add relevant citations to this, would you be willing to restore the template to articles you deleted it from? Most of the information comes from the ANAE, with a map covering all of North America and giving a pretty comprehensive overview on p. 182. I can get into specifics, but it'll take some time to find all the precise page numbers. Is there anything else that you feel makes this "poorly sourced and all over the place"? I'm happy to also reduce the number of example words. Wolfdog ( talk) 00:33, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
p. 182 doesn't provide verification for what exactly each symbol indicates, neither really does the rest of the book. There are often descriptions of vowel qualities, but these can be fairly broad too, such as, for a New Yorker
The tense /æh/ tokens are concentrated in upper-mid position. Is "upper-mid" what we on Wikipedia call "close-mid" (i.e. [e]) or [ɪ] or something else? And the fact that there is an an in-glide to me means a diphthong should be represented, ending in a schwa. Anyway, these kinds of reasons are why I tried to keep to a simple system here of [eə] for extremely tense, [ɛə] for intermediately tense, and [æ] for lax. Any thoughts on transcription here? Wolfdog ( talk) 18:17, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
I'm going to go back to the "free" and "checked" formatWhy? I haven't heard of this usage of "checked" and "free" and it's not even the sense described by our article, Wells (1982), or ANAE itself on p. 12. /æ/ is always "checked" in that sense, and even when it's applied to /æC/ it still doesn't mirror the usage of the earlier version of this template. Nardog ( talk) 10:49, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
/æ/ is always "checked" in that sense.
"tense" or "raised", "intermediate", etc.method, but then we don't get the phonetic qualities of the vowel, which can differ pretty substantially; for example, some allophones are merely raised, while others are raised plus diphthongized/lengthened. I'd be happy to go either way. There are of courses sources I could look into beyond ANAE that could provide more specific IPA transcriptions. (That's for example, where the odd-looking Southern transcription came from: a source by Erik Thomas.) I'd be happy to find a way to represent phonemic vs. not too. That Sandbox is where I'll continue to try out stuff. Thanks for the input; keep it coming. Wolfdog ( talk) 16:12, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Checked and free vowels seemed to be our closest equivalentNot remotely. If that dichotomy was applied to /æC/, /æC#/ would be considered a free environment, not checked. "Open" vs. "closed" isn't without problems either, as not only does it depend on the approach to syllabification (Merriam-Webster, CEPD, and LDP would all give you different answers), but also e.g. random is syllabified as /ˈræn.dəm/, i.e. with an open /æC/, according to MOP-based theories, but it seems to belong to the "closed" group. "Prevocalic" and "non-prevocalic" are what they truly mean by "open" and "closed" as far as I can tell.
My major edits and additions of citations are basically done. Feel free to discuss any other desired changes, suggestions, or lingering questions here. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:44, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
before voiced velars, /g/ and /N/, ha[s] up-glides, toward [j]. This glide reversal causes a change across subsystems, so that short /æg/ effectively becomes long, up-gliding /eyg/, merging with the /eyg/ of plague, vague. Specifically, though, the description seems to come from Labov 181 (sorry about that) for the haggle-Hegel merger: another variant of course. Wolfdog ( talk) 20:46, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
the description seems to come from Labov 181 (sorry about that)Why the apology? Actually, can we dispense with Boberg (2008) and cite the entire thing to ANAE? That would be simpler, as the articles where this template would be used most likely already cite ANAE, but not Boberg. Nardog ( talk) 02:49, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
we're still using [æ] and [eə] as shorthands, which columns concern you? Wolfdog ( talk) 13:09, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
I know you're not aesthetically pleased by the overstuffed GenAm columnI don't know where you got such an idea... I just followed ANAE p. 183: "The Inland North, the Midland, the South, the Mid-Atlantic States, and western Pennsylvania show that the vowels before the velar nasal are significantly lower than before the apical nasal" (which means I should have split Midland too). I don't think we need more than one example of words that don't differ after /æ/. Nardog ( talk) 07:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
rid of the lengthy note(I assume you mean the unwiedly section of notes about Philly, NYC, etc.)? Wolfdog ( talk) 15:19, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
the quality of /æ/ is... more mid before /b, d, ɡ, dʒ/, it's really "before /d/" that appears categorically as mid (that is: equal to or higher than all other non-prenasal phonetic environments) across all of ANAE's charts for regional speakers in this camp, including those from Columbus (Midland), Boston, and Pittsburgh, plus (in non-ANAE sources), New Jersey and Cooperstown, NY. Other than briefly noting this phenomenon with /d/, however, the ANAE doesn't dedicate a lot of writing to it. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:38, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
you feel unconvinced about exact phonetic notationIt's not a matter of being convinced, we just can't say anything the source doesn't. Again, is [ə] in [eə, ɛə] in each cell verified? Can it be? If not, we have no standing to keep it. Nardog ( talk) 15:01, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Can't we add it to the table, per Ae tensing#Australian English? Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) ( talk) 06:16, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
Lembit Staan: Hi, can you name your exact problems please? You can see that Nardog and I have already had a long discussion about relevant sources above. Thanks. Wolfdog ( talk) 00:54, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
@ Nardog, would it be okay if the footnote said "Some New Yorkers may have [ɛə] instead of [æ] before /ŋ/ (...)", instead of what it said earlier? This is closer to the source; my writing "raised [ɛə]" was a mistake. Tyrui ( talk) 07:34, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
the Canadian column of the /æ/ raising chart seems incorrect to me, specifically the bag, dragon sets (pre-vocalic and non-prevocalic /g/). I read the source (Boberg 2008) and it seems to be to be showing a use of ɛ mainly in the prairies, not in "ontario, quebec, or the maritimes" which imo is specific enough to not be the best transcription for a broad general Canadian such as in this chart. I don't feel comfortable changing it because I know there are a lot of regional Canadian accents and I might stand to correction but anecdotally I've never heard this pronunciation in my life. (note this is distinction from leg, egg as /ejg/ which IS certainly common). Does anyone have any other sources on this? Phantasmofaman ( talk) 19:45, 9 May 2024 (UTC)