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The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:07, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Zakarid Armenia → Zakarids – per WP:COMMONNAME & WP:USEENGLISH
-- Takabeg ( talk) 08:11, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
First of all i don't understand why template history of Georgia shouldn't be here.. Zakarid Armenia was part of Georgian Kingdom and all it's history is directly related to the history of Georgia.. then as i see the biggest object of debate between us is the nationality of Zakarids. there are 4 or 5 links in references about that but in fact only one of them says the zakarids were armenians with kurdish origins, it's from geni.com. i can't see any sources under the text which proves that. There is a historical work of Georgian Historian Levan Sanikidze called "The Swords Without The Scabbards" in which the author says that the Mkhargrzeli family was in the beggining Gregorian, then diophisite christian.. their mother tongue was Georgian and their mentality was Georgian too. you can see that chapter from his book on this link https://burusi.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/%E1%83%9A%E1%83%94%E1%83%95%E1%83%90%E1%83%9C-%E1%83%A1%E1%83%90%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98%E1%83%99%E1%83%98%E1%83%AB%E1%83%94-%E1%83%AC%E1%83%98%E1%83%92%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98-%E1%83%97%E1%83%90%E1%83%9B/ .. it can be written in the references under article too.. also i have his first edition book in which all this info is written on the page 530. that's all what i wanted to say, SORRY FOR MY POOR ENGLISH IrakliGuna ( talk) 17:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 4 October 2018. The result of the move review was closure endorsed – page moved back to stable title. |
The result of the move request was: no consensus to do anything in particular at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 03:50, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Armenia within the Kingdom of Georgia → Zakarid Armenia – This article was named Zakarid Armenia until it was recently changed without discussion. Considering Zakarid Armenia was only in union with the Kingdom of Georgia for 25 years but Mongol vassals for over a century, the new title is very inaccurate. I added a academic source by Chahin confirming that Zakarid Armenia is the correct name. In addition, Zakarid Armenia is by far a much more WP:COMMONNAME
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 16:25, 14 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte ( work | talk) 11:18, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
The object historically have not existed at all, attested nowhere before 20th c. Both term and the object are established in modern times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abkhazian1 ( talk • contribs) 12:44, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Entirety of this article is biased and based on the modern studies which in no way are reliable. I also think this article should be deleted because "Zakarid Armenia" is not a real term, it is a term made up by modern scholars but the historical scholars never mention it as "Zakarid Armenia" I will get on saying the other errors of article right now.
1)According to author, Zakarid Armenia[2] (Armenian: Զաքարյան Հայաստան Zakaryan Hayastan), was an Armenian principality between 1201 and 1360, ruled by the Zakarid-Mkhargrzeli dynasty. The city of Ani was the capital of the princedom. The Zakarids were vassals to the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia, but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings
I see several errors here which I tried to fix but the main editor of page keeps deleting it and warning me, so:
2)- There is no source cited regarding the actual "capital" of so called "Zakarid Armenia" becuase there would be no such thing most likely.
3)- the following claim "but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings" is backed up only by a single source which says: The degree of Armenian dependence on Georgia during this period is still the subject of considerable controversy. The numerous Zak'arid inscriptions leave no doubt that they considered themselves Armenians, and they often acted independently. meaning, the only source that backs up claims of the person who claimed that Zakarids were "ruling independently" still considers the following subject a CONSIDERABLE CONTROVERSY not a confirmed thing. also, to get the better view about the history we need to show NOT part of it but ALL of it. This is EXACTLY what I tried to do when I added information about how Mongols conquered all of South Caucasus and called it "vilayet of Gurjistan" same as "vilayet of Georgia" due to the reason that conquered Armenian lands were conquered off GEORGIA. On which I cited a source on but on basis of nothing the author DELETED it.
4)Now, let's talk about the claim where it says that "Armenian generals Zakare and Ivane." which is backed up by 2 source of which one is not even possible to find, but the easily accessible one, which you can actually get a view on with clicking it says no such things about those people being Armenians, though quite the opposite, it does that these people were Kurdish in Origin who actually adopted Christianity and got Georgianized. this very source was cited by the person who changed the wikipedia into them being Armenian when they obviously were just Georgians of Kurdish origin.}
SonofJacob (
talk) 10:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Interesting. Though I do really know that Ivane changed his faith to Georgian Diaphysite Christianity. It is written in the "Kartlis tskhovreba" as well. So that may not be applied to Zakare, but for Ivane it can. SonofJacob ( talk) 13:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Both of the sources added in this edit mention as Armenian, there is no Georgian general. [1] [2] Quotes:
How does these make the general "Armenian-Georgian"? Sources repeatably Armenian house of Zacharids (which the general belongs to), and only mention Georgia when talking about the Georgian kings and conquest. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 20:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
@ LeontinaVarlamonva Please stop edit warring this article and moving it without discussion, per Wikipedia:Requested moves if you change an article title and it gets reverted back you MUST started a page move request and seek consensus for controversial moves. Your edits introduce poorly sourced original research that misinterprets the sources and goes against what the vast majority of sources on this topic says, you also deleted sourced content to fit your POV. This is unacceptable, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and revert your changes. TagaworShah (talk) 04:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on September 18, 2021. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Zakarid Armenia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 ( talk) 18:07, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Zakarid Armenia → Zakarids – per WP:COMMONNAME & WP:USEENGLISH
-- Takabeg ( talk) 08:11, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
First of all i don't understand why template history of Georgia shouldn't be here.. Zakarid Armenia was part of Georgian Kingdom and all it's history is directly related to the history of Georgia.. then as i see the biggest object of debate between us is the nationality of Zakarids. there are 4 or 5 links in references about that but in fact only one of them says the zakarids were armenians with kurdish origins, it's from geni.com. i can't see any sources under the text which proves that. There is a historical work of Georgian Historian Levan Sanikidze called "The Swords Without The Scabbards" in which the author says that the Mkhargrzeli family was in the beggining Gregorian, then diophisite christian.. their mother tongue was Georgian and their mentality was Georgian too. you can see that chapter from his book on this link https://burusi.wordpress.com/2009/08/08/%E1%83%9A%E1%83%94%E1%83%95%E1%83%90%E1%83%9C-%E1%83%A1%E1%83%90%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98%E1%83%99%E1%83%98%E1%83%AB%E1%83%94-%E1%83%AC%E1%83%98%E1%83%92%E1%83%9C%E1%83%98-%E1%83%97%E1%83%90%E1%83%9B/ .. it can be written in the references under article too.. also i have his first edition book in which all this info is written on the page 530. that's all what i wanted to say, SORRY FOR MY POOR ENGLISH IrakliGuna ( talk) 17:54, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 4 October 2018. The result of the move review was closure endorsed – page moved back to stable title. |
The result of the move request was: no consensus to do anything in particular at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 03:50, 3 August 2018 (UTC)
Armenia within the Kingdom of Georgia → Zakarid Armenia – This article was named Zakarid Armenia until it was recently changed without discussion. Considering Zakarid Armenia was only in union with the Kingdom of Georgia for 25 years but Mongol vassals for over a century, the new title is very inaccurate. I added a academic source by Chahin confirming that Zakarid Armenia is the correct name. In addition, Zakarid Armenia is by far a much more WP:COMMONNAME
Étienne Dolet ( talk) 16:25, 14 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Anarchyte ( work | talk) 11:18, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
The object historically have not existed at all, attested nowhere before 20th c. Both term and the object are established in modern times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abkhazian1 ( talk • contribs) 12:44, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
Entirety of this article is biased and based on the modern studies which in no way are reliable. I also think this article should be deleted because "Zakarid Armenia" is not a real term, it is a term made up by modern scholars but the historical scholars never mention it as "Zakarid Armenia" I will get on saying the other errors of article right now.
1)According to author, Zakarid Armenia[2] (Armenian: Զաքարյան Հայաստան Zakaryan Hayastan), was an Armenian principality between 1201 and 1360, ruled by the Zakarid-Mkhargrzeli dynasty. The city of Ani was the capital of the princedom. The Zakarids were vassals to the Bagrationi dynasty in Georgia, but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings
I see several errors here which I tried to fix but the main editor of page keeps deleting it and warning me, so:
2)- There is no source cited regarding the actual "capital" of so called "Zakarid Armenia" becuase there would be no such thing most likely.
3)- the following claim "but frequently acted independently and at times titled themselves as kings" is backed up only by a single source which says: The degree of Armenian dependence on Georgia during this period is still the subject of considerable controversy. The numerous Zak'arid inscriptions leave no doubt that they considered themselves Armenians, and they often acted independently. meaning, the only source that backs up claims of the person who claimed that Zakarids were "ruling independently" still considers the following subject a CONSIDERABLE CONTROVERSY not a confirmed thing. also, to get the better view about the history we need to show NOT part of it but ALL of it. This is EXACTLY what I tried to do when I added information about how Mongols conquered all of South Caucasus and called it "vilayet of Gurjistan" same as "vilayet of Georgia" due to the reason that conquered Armenian lands were conquered off GEORGIA. On which I cited a source on but on basis of nothing the author DELETED it.
4)Now, let's talk about the claim where it says that "Armenian generals Zakare and Ivane." which is backed up by 2 source of which one is not even possible to find, but the easily accessible one, which you can actually get a view on with clicking it says no such things about those people being Armenians, though quite the opposite, it does that these people were Kurdish in Origin who actually adopted Christianity and got Georgianized. this very source was cited by the person who changed the wikipedia into them being Armenian when they obviously were just Georgians of Kurdish origin.}
SonofJacob (
talk) 10:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
Interesting. Though I do really know that Ivane changed his faith to Georgian Diaphysite Christianity. It is written in the "Kartlis tskhovreba" as well. So that may not be applied to Zakare, but for Ivane it can. SonofJacob ( talk) 13:59, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Both of the sources added in this edit mention as Armenian, there is no Georgian general. [1] [2] Quotes:
How does these make the general "Armenian-Georgian"? Sources repeatably Armenian house of Zacharids (which the general belongs to), and only mention Georgia when talking about the Georgian kings and conquest. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 20:22, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
@ LeontinaVarlamonva Please stop edit warring this article and moving it without discussion, per Wikipedia:Requested moves if you change an article title and it gets reverted back you MUST started a page move request and seek consensus for controversial moves. Your edits introduce poorly sourced original research that misinterprets the sources and goes against what the vast majority of sources on this topic says, you also deleted sourced content to fit your POV. This is unacceptable, please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view and revert your changes. TagaworShah (talk) 04:56, 3 November 2023 (UTC)