Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
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This article was nominated for deletion on 2 August 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Sources Page
Talk:Yoni_Jesner_and_Ahmed_Khatib/Sources |
A fact from Israeli–Arab organ donations appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 12 August 2010 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
Mila, please notice that this quote
Pete Tobias, rabbi of the Glasgow New (Reform) Synagogue says:
“ | The ramifications of this organ donation - something not supported by orthodox Jewish law - are extraordinary. A Palestinian girl will grow up in east Jerusalem, and the seat of her emotions will be governed by the kidney of a murdered Glaswegian Jew [1] | ” |
get the article into places it shouldn't go. Orthodox Judaism, and even large branches of the ultra orthodox one, do allow and encourage organ donations from dead or living person. I can easily source it, but I think better solution would be to replace this quote.
Sincerely -- Gilisa ( talk) 16:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
(copied from Mbz1's talk page):
I have pretty much finished my tweaks to the Yoni Jesner and Ahmed Khatib article now. If they meet with your approval, I think this one can be promoted now. Gatoclass ( talk) 11:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't see the inability to retain the 'better than blowing up children in busses' line as a good reason to remove all mention of his statements, such a quote by the leader of the Al-aqsa is noteworthy and gives depth to the article. Unomi ( talk) 16:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
(copied from Unomi's talk page):
The removal was done as a compromise for DYK promotion. Please see the discussion at Mbz's talk page. Gatoclass ( talk) 16:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Okay, on reflection I think Unomi has a point about quotes, without the Zubeidi quote there are two quotes from the Israeli side and none from the Palestinian, and I think it only fair there is a Palestinian voice in there as well.
I was going to make a couple of suggestions, the first was to add some material about Al-Aqsa's role in suicide bombings to the Zubeidi material to give it more balance, but it turns out the Al-Aqsa page is poorly sourced and I haven't the inclination to research the topic myself. So that leaves me with the second suggestion, which is a quote from the mother. I suggest the following:
While denouncing the Israelis who shot her son as "criminals", Ahmed's mother Abla explained why she agreed to the donations:
"We saw a lot of painful scenes in the hospital. I have seen children in deep need of organs, in deep pain. It doesn't matter who they are. We didn't specify that his organs would go to Arabs, Christians or Jews. I didn't want my son to suffer, I didn't want other children to suffer regardless of who they are".
Gatoclass ( talk) 05:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
here is wrong. This source says: "Ahmed's heart was transplanted into a 12-year-old Israeli Arab girl"-- Mbz1 ( talk) 06:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, quick question from the uninitiated, isn't "Arab Druze" redundant, or alternatively isn't it incorrect within the context of Israel as "Israeli Druze" is a listed as a ethnic group separate from Arab? If we describe her with the full description given by source she would be an Israeli Druze Arab, which seems pretty unwieldy, I propose simply: Israeli Druze. Unomi ( talk) 17:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm, well now the article has been AfD'ed, so it seems we are not as close to resolving outstanding disputes as I had hoped. Gatoclass ( talk) 07:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
The AfD resulted as no concensus. However, the concerns haven't been addressed. The least thing that can be done is splitting this page to two pages , Ahmed Khatib and Yoni Jesner. Maashatra11 ( talk) 18:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Going ahead and splitting the articles counter to local consensus here and any consensus at the AfD does seem like a pretty bad idea. How about slowing down and talking it out? Unomi ( talk) 19:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
For good reason. While Maas for some reason argues that the two people are not connected, that of course fails completely to recognize that The Guardian, ABC, The Sunday Times, the Telegraph, the Gulf Times, Dawn, the Church Times, and BBC World Service all focused on the two together. All of this is clear both in the article, and in the failed AfD.
Upon his AfD failing, he now both: a) seeks to split this article (his suggestion that was not accepted at the AfD), and b) starts a non-consensus, POINTy, forum-shopping creation of both of the articles he sought to create by split -- here and here. He also removes the A10 speedy delete tags (the reason for the tag being that all that information is already in this article, and that his creations did not "expand upon, detail or improve information within the existing article(s) on the subject").
The result of his redirects to the two pages that were created against consensus is that they of course do not direct to this page.
This pattern of disruptive editing is rising to a level that is of concern.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 19:04, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Can we add Mazen Joulani ( [2]) to the title ? Or shalln't we because he wasn't featured in the BBC documentary? Or because he wasn't young? Maashatra11 ( talk) 00:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Since the AfD was closed as no consensus, the article has been restored to DYK suggestions per Mbz's request. Gatoclass ( talk) 09:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
His quote is pure propaganda, and since it has no historic value it shouldn't be in the article. Because of the NPOV policy a balancing quote, and this is not good for a wikipedia article, but to quotes page on wikiquote. Broccoli ( talk) 14:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
The quote is a quote. Sources relay this quote to show the impact and response from the community ( which the sources indicate that Zubeidi was a prominent member of). When one of the notable terrorist / resistance groups go out of their way to endorse the donation of organs to Israelis that is certainly something which deserves mention in our article. Unomi ( talk) 15:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I am completely nonplussed at this "We've" stuff, the removal of the quote seemed intended on appeasing, superfluously, the misapprehensions of one editor regarding what constitutes NPOV. The discussion on this talkpage does not seem to indicate a wider consensus regarding supporting the censorship of notable commentary regarding the organ donations. This quote was relayed by multiple high quality sources, likely as they, as I, find it compelling and grants context. Unomi ( talk) 17:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Quite a few times the text "Yoni Jesner was killed in a Palestinian suicide bombing in 2002" or "Yoni Jesner was murdered in a Palestinian suicide bombing in 2002" was replaced by "Yoni Jesner died in a Palestinian suicide bombing in 2002". What he died from, a heart attack, stroke or what? People do no "died" in suicide bombings, they are getting killed or murdered. If "murdered" (that btw was used in the source) seems to be too strong, than "killed" should be used. There's no way around it.-- Mbz1 ( talk) 16:38, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Please see previous discussion in AfD here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Yoni_Jesner_and_Ahmed_Khatib. This article doesn't seem to meet the standards for a separate article, though it probably could be merged into an another one, like for example Children and minors in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict (in fact it's included there already!)
Please comment and give your opinion on whether you think it should be given a separate article or merged to Children and minors in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict or another article. Thank you! -- 85.250.163.152 ( talk) 13:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't support the merge, per WP:UNDUE. Just leave a link to this article from that one in the "See also" section. Gatoclass ( talk) 14:53, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Anybody objecting the splitting of this article to Yoni Jesner and Ahmed Khatib ? These two considerably notable boys deserve their own separate articles. Is there a possibility to make a vote or something? So It can be sure the split is agreed by the community. Lily232323 ( talk) 22:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 16:44, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
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Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
This article was nominated for deletion on 2 August 2010 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus. |
Sources Page
Talk:Yoni_Jesner_and_Ahmed_Khatib/Sources |
A fact from Israeli–Arab organ donations appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 12 August 2010 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
Mila, please notice that this quote
Pete Tobias, rabbi of the Glasgow New (Reform) Synagogue says:
“ | The ramifications of this organ donation - something not supported by orthodox Jewish law - are extraordinary. A Palestinian girl will grow up in east Jerusalem, and the seat of her emotions will be governed by the kidney of a murdered Glaswegian Jew [1] | ” |
get the article into places it shouldn't go. Orthodox Judaism, and even large branches of the ultra orthodox one, do allow and encourage organ donations from dead or living person. I can easily source it, but I think better solution would be to replace this quote.
Sincerely -- Gilisa ( talk) 16:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
(copied from Mbz1's talk page):
I have pretty much finished my tweaks to the Yoni Jesner and Ahmed Khatib article now. If they meet with your approval, I think this one can be promoted now. Gatoclass ( talk) 11:30, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I don't see the inability to retain the 'better than blowing up children in busses' line as a good reason to remove all mention of his statements, such a quote by the leader of the Al-aqsa is noteworthy and gives depth to the article. Unomi ( talk) 16:14, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
(copied from Unomi's talk page):
The removal was done as a compromise for DYK promotion. Please see the discussion at Mbz's talk page. Gatoclass ( talk) 16:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
Okay, on reflection I think Unomi has a point about quotes, without the Zubeidi quote there are two quotes from the Israeli side and none from the Palestinian, and I think it only fair there is a Palestinian voice in there as well.
I was going to make a couple of suggestions, the first was to add some material about Al-Aqsa's role in suicide bombings to the Zubeidi material to give it more balance, but it turns out the Al-Aqsa page is poorly sourced and I haven't the inclination to research the topic myself. So that leaves me with the second suggestion, which is a quote from the mother. I suggest the following:
While denouncing the Israelis who shot her son as "criminals", Ahmed's mother Abla explained why she agreed to the donations:
"We saw a lot of painful scenes in the hospital. I have seen children in deep need of organs, in deep pain. It doesn't matter who they are. We didn't specify that his organs would go to Arabs, Christians or Jews. I didn't want my son to suffer, I didn't want other children to suffer regardless of who they are".
Gatoclass ( talk) 05:17, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
here is wrong. This source says: "Ahmed's heart was transplanted into a 12-year-old Israeli Arab girl"-- Mbz1 ( talk) 06:09, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, quick question from the uninitiated, isn't "Arab Druze" redundant, or alternatively isn't it incorrect within the context of Israel as "Israeli Druze" is a listed as a ethnic group separate from Arab? If we describe her with the full description given by source she would be an Israeli Druze Arab, which seems pretty unwieldy, I propose simply: Israeli Druze. Unomi ( talk) 17:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm, well now the article has been AfD'ed, so it seems we are not as close to resolving outstanding disputes as I had hoped. Gatoclass ( talk) 07:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
The AfD resulted as no concensus. However, the concerns haven't been addressed. The least thing that can be done is splitting this page to two pages , Ahmed Khatib and Yoni Jesner. Maashatra11 ( talk) 18:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Going ahead and splitting the articles counter to local consensus here and any consensus at the AfD does seem like a pretty bad idea. How about slowing down and talking it out? Unomi ( talk) 19:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
For good reason. While Maas for some reason argues that the two people are not connected, that of course fails completely to recognize that The Guardian, ABC, The Sunday Times, the Telegraph, the Gulf Times, Dawn, the Church Times, and BBC World Service all focused on the two together. All of this is clear both in the article, and in the failed AfD.
Upon his AfD failing, he now both: a) seeks to split this article (his suggestion that was not accepted at the AfD), and b) starts a non-consensus, POINTy, forum-shopping creation of both of the articles he sought to create by split -- here and here. He also removes the A10 speedy delete tags (the reason for the tag being that all that information is already in this article, and that his creations did not "expand upon, detail or improve information within the existing article(s) on the subject").
The result of his redirects to the two pages that were created against consensus is that they of course do not direct to this page.
This pattern of disruptive editing is rising to a level that is of concern.-- Epeefleche ( talk) 19:04, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Can we add Mazen Joulani ( [2]) to the title ? Or shalln't we because he wasn't featured in the BBC documentary? Or because he wasn't young? Maashatra11 ( talk) 00:43, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
Since the AfD was closed as no consensus, the article has been restored to DYK suggestions per Mbz's request. Gatoclass ( talk) 09:37, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
His quote is pure propaganda, and since it has no historic value it shouldn't be in the article. Because of the NPOV policy a balancing quote, and this is not good for a wikipedia article, but to quotes page on wikiquote. Broccoli ( talk) 14:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
The quote is a quote. Sources relay this quote to show the impact and response from the community ( which the sources indicate that Zubeidi was a prominent member of). When one of the notable terrorist / resistance groups go out of their way to endorse the donation of organs to Israelis that is certainly something which deserves mention in our article. Unomi ( talk) 15:40, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
I am completely nonplussed at this "We've" stuff, the removal of the quote seemed intended on appeasing, superfluously, the misapprehensions of one editor regarding what constitutes NPOV. The discussion on this talkpage does not seem to indicate a wider consensus regarding supporting the censorship of notable commentary regarding the organ donations. This quote was relayed by multiple high quality sources, likely as they, as I, find it compelling and grants context. Unomi ( talk) 17:20, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Quite a few times the text "Yoni Jesner was killed in a Palestinian suicide bombing in 2002" or "Yoni Jesner was murdered in a Palestinian suicide bombing in 2002" was replaced by "Yoni Jesner died in a Palestinian suicide bombing in 2002". What he died from, a heart attack, stroke or what? People do no "died" in suicide bombings, they are getting killed or murdered. If "murdered" (that btw was used in the source) seems to be too strong, than "killed" should be used. There's no way around it.-- Mbz1 ( talk) 16:38, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
Please see previous discussion in AfD here: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Yoni_Jesner_and_Ahmed_Khatib. This article doesn't seem to meet the standards for a separate article, though it probably could be merged into an another one, like for example Children and minors in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict (in fact it's included there already!)
Please comment and give your opinion on whether you think it should be given a separate article or merged to Children and minors in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict or another article. Thank you! -- 85.250.163.152 ( talk) 13:23, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't support the merge, per WP:UNDUE. Just leave a link to this article from that one in the "See also" section. Gatoclass ( talk) 14:53, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
Anybody objecting the splitting of this article to Yoni Jesner and Ahmed Khatib ? These two considerably notable boys deserve their own separate articles. Is there a possibility to make a vote or something? So It can be sure the split is agreed by the community. Lily232323 ( talk) 22:35, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Diannaa ( talk) 16:44, 26 April 2015 (UTC)