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https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/presidents/franklin-pierce-1391121.html?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&&usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fpresidents%2Ffranklin-pierce-1391121.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:9A37:77C8:4DBA:35D6:191E:412F ( talk) 06:28, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
He was arrested, but released when his identity became known.Doesn't explicitly state that this happened during his time in office, I am checking for more sources ATM. Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:25, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
The story of his arrest — confirmed a few years ago by Cathy L. Lanier, who was then the District’s police chief(my emphasis). That sentence in paragraph 8 links to a WTOP article quotes the police chief as saying
“The metropolitan police department actually stopped and cited Ulysses S. Grant three times for speeding,” she says.. I don't understand why a police chief would state something as if it were a fact if they didn't have some method to prove, which was why I was musing about FOIAs in the below subsection. TBH I have no idea if any police department kept extensive arrest record in the 1870s, and if they would have been preserved. But I reasoned that if the Dutch can remember to pay on a bond for 300 years it might be within the realm of possibility that original proof exits for Grant's arrest at the hands of West. Other than the sources mentioned in the article, I know of no other ones, a query put out on Twitter has received only likes, no actual material or pointers on where to find this. Thanks for your time, Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 03:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't understand why a police chief would state something as if it were a fact if they didn't have some method to prove– Police chiefs tell loose, entertaining stories about long ago just like everyone else. Because of the special nature of this assertion I'm willing to go to some lengths to smoke it out if it exists somewhere, but I'm not hopeful. Once you start checking you see this story has been kicking around a long time, and some people have put substantial effort into it, with no indication at all of solid sourcing, just 20th-c stories apparently coming from West. The ghostofdc link I'm adding to the bulletlist below is especially good, and makes it even more likely there's no primary source to be found. In particular, ghostofdc seems to have already done one of the things I was going to do (and will do anyway nonetheless), which is to search historical newspapers for stories about West or about West + Grant. That does offer one glimmer of hope: one of the images (on the right, near the bottom) is "NEGRO POLICEMAN SUSPENDED -- Man Who Arrested President Grant a Disorderly Conduct Prisoner", dated 1901. That's the first thing I've found earlier than the 1908 Evening Star spread. Just to be clear, I'm not saying I disbelieve the truth of the Grant story (I'm 50-50 at this point), rather I'm just not sanguine about finding sourcing we can use. E Eng 05:03, 19 December 2018 (UTC) P.S. see "On the trail" below.
If we don't come up with better sourcing, I think we're in trouble. Given the sources we have now, at best we can only report this as a story West told. E Eng 23:19, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Multiple article about West’s career after the Grant arrest are a silver via Chronicling America. An additional section of this Wikipedia article would be helpful. The articles show greater scrutiny of West by supervisors and even a hostile workplace atmosphere is this post Reconstruction/Jim Crow period after 1876. Articles appear in both white and black newspapers. Thus article needs to be centered on West not Grant. Also additional details of West’s civil war service shoulf be added. JTaylorF ( talk) 17:37, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
...at [2], but I don't see where it comes from and I worry a bit about authenticity. E Eng 18:21, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Three decades later someone tells a story and there are no records. The wording, flow, and fable like lesson in the story all point to apocryphal origin. This should be clearly addressed in the article. It is very unlikely a real event. I posted the same concern on the Ulysses S. Grant talk page, but mentioned that the apacryphal story should be mentioned, like how the Washington Cherry Tree story should be mentioned too on George Washington. 76.178.169.118 ( talk) 19:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
This person is only notable in the context of the Grant arrest, what mention there is of him there should be enough. Should this be made into a redirect? ValarianB ( talk) 15:08, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 5 April 2023. The result of the discussion was merge. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
https://www-independent-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/presidents/franklin-pierce-1391121.html?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&&usqp=mq331AQECAFYAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fpresidents%2Ffranklin-pierce-1391121.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1:9A37:77C8:4DBA:35D6:191E:412F ( talk) 06:28, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
He was arrested, but released when his identity became known.Doesn't explicitly state that this happened during his time in office, I am checking for more sources ATM. Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 16:25, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
The story of his arrest — confirmed a few years ago by Cathy L. Lanier, who was then the District’s police chief(my emphasis). That sentence in paragraph 8 links to a WTOP article quotes the police chief as saying
“The metropolitan police department actually stopped and cited Ulysses S. Grant three times for speeding,” she says.. I don't understand why a police chief would state something as if it were a fact if they didn't have some method to prove, which was why I was musing about FOIAs in the below subsection. TBH I have no idea if any police department kept extensive arrest record in the 1870s, and if they would have been preserved. But I reasoned that if the Dutch can remember to pay on a bond for 300 years it might be within the realm of possibility that original proof exits for Grant's arrest at the hands of West. Other than the sources mentioned in the article, I know of no other ones, a query put out on Twitter has received only likes, no actual material or pointers on where to find this. Thanks for your time, Thanks, L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 03:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
I don't understand why a police chief would state something as if it were a fact if they didn't have some method to prove– Police chiefs tell loose, entertaining stories about long ago just like everyone else. Because of the special nature of this assertion I'm willing to go to some lengths to smoke it out if it exists somewhere, but I'm not hopeful. Once you start checking you see this story has been kicking around a long time, and some people have put substantial effort into it, with no indication at all of solid sourcing, just 20th-c stories apparently coming from West. The ghostofdc link I'm adding to the bulletlist below is especially good, and makes it even more likely there's no primary source to be found. In particular, ghostofdc seems to have already done one of the things I was going to do (and will do anyway nonetheless), which is to search historical newspapers for stories about West or about West + Grant. That does offer one glimmer of hope: one of the images (on the right, near the bottom) is "NEGRO POLICEMAN SUSPENDED -- Man Who Arrested President Grant a Disorderly Conduct Prisoner", dated 1901. That's the first thing I've found earlier than the 1908 Evening Star spread. Just to be clear, I'm not saying I disbelieve the truth of the Grant story (I'm 50-50 at this point), rather I'm just not sanguine about finding sourcing we can use. E Eng 05:03, 19 December 2018 (UTC) P.S. see "On the trail" below.
If we don't come up with better sourcing, I think we're in trouble. Given the sources we have now, at best we can only report this as a story West told. E Eng 23:19, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Multiple article about West’s career after the Grant arrest are a silver via Chronicling America. An additional section of this Wikipedia article would be helpful. The articles show greater scrutiny of West by supervisors and even a hostile workplace atmosphere is this post Reconstruction/Jim Crow period after 1876. Articles appear in both white and black newspapers. Thus article needs to be centered on West not Grant. Also additional details of West’s civil war service shoulf be added. JTaylorF ( talk) 17:37, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
...at [2], but I don't see where it comes from and I worry a bit about authenticity. E Eng 18:21, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Three decades later someone tells a story and there are no records. The wording, flow, and fable like lesson in the story all point to apocryphal origin. This should be clearly addressed in the article. It is very unlikely a real event. I posted the same concern on the Ulysses S. Grant talk page, but mentioned that the apacryphal story should be mentioned, like how the Washington Cherry Tree story should be mentioned too on George Washington. 76.178.169.118 ( talk) 19:27, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
This person is only notable in the context of the Grant arrest, what mention there is of him there should be enough. Should this be made into a redirect? ValarianB ( talk) 15:08, 4 April 2023 (UTC)