This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Shouldn't we put these in italics? Callophylla 00:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Removed this. Daisy Bates is not a reliable source and she obviously wasn't award of old, large scale sites for high quality ochre, in non-Noongar country like Wilgie Mia (near Cue) and inbetween both Uluru and Perth (which has little, if any, ochre deposits at all). Grant | Talk 10:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Whadjuk. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Mitch Ames and I have a disagreement regarding whether or not the inclusion of Noongar names for some of the plants and animals in the subsection on seasons is appropriate/within scope.
Other opinions on this would be helpful to resolve the impasse.
The following is copy pasted from Mitch Ames talk page. It is the discussion I started after Mitch removed the Noongar names. Apologies about the terrible formatting.
~
Hey there, just wanted to discuss your removal of the Noongar names from the article on the Whadjuk people.
I think including them is quite relevant and of interest to any reader interested in the subject. I don't see why a reader wouldn't be curious about this info if they've gone through the effort of finding a particular article on one of the Noongar people.
Your comments about the section on the seasons including irrelevant information regarding plants and animals is not considering the fact that these things are inextricably linked. The Noongar seasons are not conceptualised the same way the winter, spring, summer, autumn system is; they are noticed to start and end when particular patterns are seen among the plants and animals.
Happy to raise this for discussion somewhere else if you feel just as strongly. FropFrop (talk) 22:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
"information regarding plants and animals ... these things are inextricably linked" — The seasons are characterised/determined by the behaviour of plants and animals, but not by what the Noongar call those plants and animals. Thus the Noongar names for the plants/animals are irrelevant to the definitions for the seasons - the English name will do just as well, and more meaningfully for the Anglophone reader. The purpose of the section is to explain the seasons, in English (the language that Enlish Wikipedia is written in), not to teach other Noongar words. If you are asserting that the name of a particular season is derived from the Noongar name of a plant/animal – eg (hypothetically) that the word Birak gets its name from the Noongar words Bir meaning fruit and ak meaning easterly wind – then you would have a case, provided that the article said so explicitly, with references. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
No sorry, one of my points was that the names are likely of interest to a reader. My second point was in response to your edit comment that the section is about seasons and not plants/animals, when the determination of when the seasons begin and end is done, in part, by observing plants and animals. Regardless, we disagree. I'll make a post asking for others' input. FropFrop (talk) 22:23, 21 February 2024 (UTC) FropFrop ( talk) 22:54, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
the names are likely of interest to a reader— Some Noongar words might be of interest to the reader, but that does not imply that they belong in this article. This article/section is not about those plants/animals, nor is it the place to teach Noongar words (with the common exception of the article's subject, or examples in an article about the language itself), nor an English/Noongar dictionary. We can describe the demarcation of the seasons in English and it will impart just as much information about the seasons as if we had done it in Noongar (or Latin). Mitch Ames ( talk) 12:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I still disagree with the inclusion as irrelevant to the English description of the seasons - and apparently unrelated to the etymology of the Noongar words for the seasons, or even the definition of the seasons - and cluttering the text and make it harder to read. I've posted requests at WP:AWNB and WT:WA for other editors' input. Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Lookming for sources of the use of Witjari I cannot find any significant reliable source that is not a circlular source from Wikipedia. I suggest it gets removed if sufficient reliable sources can't be established. Gnan garra 07:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Should Noongar (the language of the Whadjuk people) words be included in the description of seasonal activities? Mitch Ames ( talk) 03:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions:
Mitch Ames ( talk) 03:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
clarify what the exact words under consideration— Done.
we are talking about plant and animal names in running text, not the names of the seasons.— Correct.
Of the 15-30,000 people who self-identify with a Noongar background, less than 250 use some forms of the language(s)/dialects in their everyday lifeI'm not disputing that the language has been greatly impacted by colonisation, however that doesn't mean we can't know the word used to refer to specific things.
...making a selection from the surviving lexica to establish a new Noongar vernacular, a composite tongue,very much in the way modern Hebrew was invented.Yes, Neo-Noongar is a thing. However, that doesn't mean we can't know some of the words used to refer to specific things before colonisation, nor does it mean that the different dialects didn't share more commonalities than differences. Hence the Noongar Dictionary not including a lot of content.
...for the Whadjuk [the word for mother] was jukan...I'm not so sure about that. The only use of 'jukan' to mean that was in Edward M Curr's 'The Australian Race' which I'd argue is far less reliable than the modern efforts to reconstruct a (sadly shallow) Noongar by finding the commonalities of the dialects. Linguists who have gone over the material, and Noongar Elders who were 'lucky' enough to learn their language, don't seem to be in disagreement about this.
would commenting the Noongar terms be acceptable?— I don't see what the point of MOS:COMMENTing them would be. How will those comments help the editors? Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:11, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
the information is of interest and thus it should be included— The former does not imply the latter. Per WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:INDISCRIMINATE, information ought only be added if it adds value in that context. There is nothing to indicate that the reader would be any better informed about the Noongar seasons, or what the Whadjuk do in each season, by knowing the Noongar words for specific plants/animals etc. The seasonal characterisations and the activities therein - and the reader's understanding of those characterisations and activities - are exactly the same whether described in English, Noongar or Afrikaans (were someone to develop the af.wikipedia article). Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
..information ought only be added if it adds value in that context.While in general I agree, this is quite a niche subject area, where someone interested in the subject matter is likely going to be interested in also knowing the Noongar/Whadjuk terms. Someone reading the section on the seasons, is more than likely reading the article because they are interested in the broader subject matter, not because they specifically want to know the seasonal habits of the Whadjuk people before colonisation. By providing this information, it more than likely increases the value of the article for the reader. I think that this is a situation where the principle ' Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is for uncommon situations' is highly relevant, although I still disagree that WP:NOTADICTIONARY counts here.
...it should include those facts that are of historical, societal, scientific, intellectual or academic significance.., imo the terms meet this requirement. FropFrop ( talk) 03:53, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
historical, societal, scientific, intellectual or academic significanceif they aren't compatible with our purpose as an encyclopedia.
if footnoting them would be acceptable— Those examples may actually increase the amount of screen space taken! But even if if you limit the label to single letter [a] it is still distracting. In fact it introduces another problem - now I have to move the mouse to hover over the label to find out what it says, [b] to then discover that it does not explain anything. Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Gustav I of Sweden liked to breakfast on crispbread (knäckebröd) open sandwiches with toppings such as messmör (butter made from goat's milk), ham, and vegetables.- Would you argue for this style guide to be changed?
It is fine to include foreign terms as extra information
That is pure speculation on your part- Considering that this information was put in by an editor, and that myself and two others either want the information included or do not think that including it is an issue; no I don't think this is speculation but has been demonstrated to be true. FropFrop ( talk) 04:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Use other languages sparingly— that is only an essay, which refers to the guideline, Wikipedia:Manual of Style § Foreign terms, which says (with my emphasis here) "Non-English terms should be used sparingly ... words that are not current in English" - eg the names of the seasons, but not the words for animals/plants. Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Gustav I of Sweden liked to breakfast on crispbread (knäckebröd) open sandwiches with toppings such as messmör (butter made from goat's milk), ham, and vegetables.is an example in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Foreign terms.
Non-English vernacular names, when relevant to include, are handled like any other foreign-language terms: italicized as such, and capitalized only if the rules of the native language require it.in Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Animals, plants, and other organisms
Use foreign words sparingly; for more information, see Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Use other languages sparingly.in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Foreign terms
It is fine to include foreign terms as extra information, but avoid writing articles that can only be understood if the reader understands the foreign termsin Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Use other languages sparingly
I don't think this is speculation but has been demonstrated to be true— My assertion of "pure speculation" (13:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)) was in response to your assertion that "someone interested in the subject matter is likely going to be interested in also knowing the Noongar/Whadjuk terms" (10:05, 21 March 2024 (UTC)). The fact that you inserted the Noongar words and two other editors do not object does not demonstrate that "someone [else] ... is likely going to be interested". Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
someone interested in the subject matter is likely going to be interested in also knowing the Noongar/Whadjuk terms— That is pure speculation on your part. English Wikipedia has many articles about people and places for whom/which English is not the native language; is there any evidence to suggest that people who read about Paris or Napoleon want to learn some random French words (other than those directly related to the article subject)?
Someone reading the section on the seasons, is more than likely reading the article because they are interested in the broader subject matter— Again, speculation. But even so, this is why we have categories, "See also" sections, navigation boxes, wiki-links etc. Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
... extremely blurred ... is the line between English/Noongar and more words are being taken up by South-west Australian English every day— That may be true, but I do not think it is relevant here. We are not debating the use of boomerang vs throwing stick, or quokka vs giant rat. If the Noongar word would stand alone in the article (as boomerang or quokka would) without needing an English translation, you'd have a point, but djiriji, yongka, ngawoo etc would be meaningless without the English word to explain them. (In fact the current use of gilgies is a good example of a Noongar word that has been adopted into English and thus can be used without the need for a "translation".) Mitch Ames ( talk) 14:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
not a boomerang— OK, my mistake, but my point still stands; there's a big difference between using quokka or gilgie, vs using djiriji, yongka, ngawoo. Mitch Ames ( talk) 14:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Shouldn't we put these in italics? Callophylla 00:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Removed this. Daisy Bates is not a reliable source and she obviously wasn't award of old, large scale sites for high quality ochre, in non-Noongar country like Wilgie Mia (near Cue) and inbetween both Uluru and Perth (which has little, if any, ochre deposits at all). Grant | Talk 10:01, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Whadjuk. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:50, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
@ Mitch Ames and I have a disagreement regarding whether or not the inclusion of Noongar names for some of the plants and animals in the subsection on seasons is appropriate/within scope.
Other opinions on this would be helpful to resolve the impasse.
The following is copy pasted from Mitch Ames talk page. It is the discussion I started after Mitch removed the Noongar names. Apologies about the terrible formatting.
~
Hey there, just wanted to discuss your removal of the Noongar names from the article on the Whadjuk people.
I think including them is quite relevant and of interest to any reader interested in the subject. I don't see why a reader wouldn't be curious about this info if they've gone through the effort of finding a particular article on one of the Noongar people.
Your comments about the section on the seasons including irrelevant information regarding plants and animals is not considering the fact that these things are inextricably linked. The Noongar seasons are not conceptualised the same way the winter, spring, summer, autumn system is; they are noticed to start and end when particular patterns are seen among the plants and animals.
Happy to raise this for discussion somewhere else if you feel just as strongly. FropFrop (talk) 22:15, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
"information regarding plants and animals ... these things are inextricably linked" — The seasons are characterised/determined by the behaviour of plants and animals, but not by what the Noongar call those plants and animals. Thus the Noongar names for the plants/animals are irrelevant to the definitions for the seasons - the English name will do just as well, and more meaningfully for the Anglophone reader. The purpose of the section is to explain the seasons, in English (the language that Enlish Wikipedia is written in), not to teach other Noongar words. If you are asserting that the name of a particular season is derived from the Noongar name of a plant/animal – eg (hypothetically) that the word Birak gets its name from the Noongar words Bir meaning fruit and ak meaning easterly wind – then you would have a case, provided that the article said so explicitly, with references. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:59, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
No sorry, one of my points was that the names are likely of interest to a reader. My second point was in response to your edit comment that the section is about seasons and not plants/animals, when the determination of when the seasons begin and end is done, in part, by observing plants and animals. Regardless, we disagree. I'll make a post asking for others' input. FropFrop (talk) 22:23, 21 February 2024 (UTC) FropFrop ( talk) 22:54, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
the names are likely of interest to a reader— Some Noongar words might be of interest to the reader, but that does not imply that they belong in this article. This article/section is not about those plants/animals, nor is it the place to teach Noongar words (with the common exception of the article's subject, or examples in an article about the language itself), nor an English/Noongar dictionary. We can describe the demarcation of the seasons in English and it will impart just as much information about the seasons as if we had done it in Noongar (or Latin). Mitch Ames ( talk) 12:57, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
I still disagree with the inclusion as irrelevant to the English description of the seasons - and apparently unrelated to the etymology of the Noongar words for the seasons, or even the definition of the seasons - and cluttering the text and make it harder to read. I've posted requests at WP:AWNB and WT:WA for other editors' input. Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:23, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
Lookming for sources of the use of Witjari I cannot find any significant reliable source that is not a circlular source from Wikipedia. I suggest it gets removed if sufficient reliable sources can't be established. Gnan garra 07:36, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
Should Noongar (the language of the Whadjuk people) words be included in the description of seasonal activities? Mitch Ames ( talk) 03:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Previous discussions:
Mitch Ames ( talk) 03:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
clarify what the exact words under consideration— Done.
we are talking about plant and animal names in running text, not the names of the seasons.— Correct.
Of the 15-30,000 people who self-identify with a Noongar background, less than 250 use some forms of the language(s)/dialects in their everyday lifeI'm not disputing that the language has been greatly impacted by colonisation, however that doesn't mean we can't know the word used to refer to specific things.
...making a selection from the surviving lexica to establish a new Noongar vernacular, a composite tongue,very much in the way modern Hebrew was invented.Yes, Neo-Noongar is a thing. However, that doesn't mean we can't know some of the words used to refer to specific things before colonisation, nor does it mean that the different dialects didn't share more commonalities than differences. Hence the Noongar Dictionary not including a lot of content.
...for the Whadjuk [the word for mother] was jukan...I'm not so sure about that. The only use of 'jukan' to mean that was in Edward M Curr's 'The Australian Race' which I'd argue is far less reliable than the modern efforts to reconstruct a (sadly shallow) Noongar by finding the commonalities of the dialects. Linguists who have gone over the material, and Noongar Elders who were 'lucky' enough to learn their language, don't seem to be in disagreement about this.
would commenting the Noongar terms be acceptable?— I don't see what the point of MOS:COMMENTing them would be. How will those comments help the editors? Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:11, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
the information is of interest and thus it should be included— The former does not imply the latter. Per WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:INDISCRIMINATE, information ought only be added if it adds value in that context. There is nothing to indicate that the reader would be any better informed about the Noongar seasons, or what the Whadjuk do in each season, by knowing the Noongar words for specific plants/animals etc. The seasonal characterisations and the activities therein - and the reader's understanding of those characterisations and activities - are exactly the same whether described in English, Noongar or Afrikaans (were someone to develop the af.wikipedia article). Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
..information ought only be added if it adds value in that context.While in general I agree, this is quite a niche subject area, where someone interested in the subject matter is likely going to be interested in also knowing the Noongar/Whadjuk terms. Someone reading the section on the seasons, is more than likely reading the article because they are interested in the broader subject matter, not because they specifically want to know the seasonal habits of the Whadjuk people before colonisation. By providing this information, it more than likely increases the value of the article for the reader. I think that this is a situation where the principle ' Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is for uncommon situations' is highly relevant, although I still disagree that WP:NOTADICTIONARY counts here.
...it should include those facts that are of historical, societal, scientific, intellectual or academic significance.., imo the terms meet this requirement. FropFrop ( talk) 03:53, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
historical, societal, scientific, intellectual or academic significanceif they aren't compatible with our purpose as an encyclopedia.
if footnoting them would be acceptable— Those examples may actually increase the amount of screen space taken! But even if if you limit the label to single letter [a] it is still distracting. In fact it introduces another problem - now I have to move the mouse to hover over the label to find out what it says, [b] to then discover that it does not explain anything. Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:00, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Gustav I of Sweden liked to breakfast on crispbread (knäckebröd) open sandwiches with toppings such as messmör (butter made from goat's milk), ham, and vegetables.- Would you argue for this style guide to be changed?
It is fine to include foreign terms as extra information
That is pure speculation on your part- Considering that this information was put in by an editor, and that myself and two others either want the information included or do not think that including it is an issue; no I don't think this is speculation but has been demonstrated to be true. FropFrop ( talk) 04:06, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Use other languages sparingly— that is only an essay, which refers to the guideline, Wikipedia:Manual of Style § Foreign terms, which says (with my emphasis here) "Non-English terms should be used sparingly ... words that are not current in English" - eg the names of the seasons, but not the words for animals/plants. Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Gustav I of Sweden liked to breakfast on crispbread (knäckebröd) open sandwiches with toppings such as messmör (butter made from goat's milk), ham, and vegetables.is an example in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Foreign terms.
Non-English vernacular names, when relevant to include, are handled like any other foreign-language terms: italicized as such, and capitalized only if the rules of the native language require it.in Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Animals, plants, and other organisms
Use foreign words sparingly; for more information, see Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Use other languages sparingly.in Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Foreign terms
It is fine to include foreign terms as extra information, but avoid writing articles that can only be understood if the reader understands the foreign termsin Wikipedia:Writing better articles#Use other languages sparingly
I don't think this is speculation but has been demonstrated to be true— My assertion of "pure speculation" (13:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)) was in response to your assertion that "someone interested in the subject matter is likely going to be interested in also knowing the Noongar/Whadjuk terms" (10:05, 21 March 2024 (UTC)). The fact that you inserted the Noongar words and two other editors do not object does not demonstrate that "someone [else] ... is likely going to be interested". Mitch Ames ( talk) 05:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
someone interested in the subject matter is likely going to be interested in also knowing the Noongar/Whadjuk terms— That is pure speculation on your part. English Wikipedia has many articles about people and places for whom/which English is not the native language; is there any evidence to suggest that people who read about Paris or Napoleon want to learn some random French words (other than those directly related to the article subject)?
Someone reading the section on the seasons, is more than likely reading the article because they are interested in the broader subject matter— Again, speculation. But even so, this is why we have categories, "See also" sections, navigation boxes, wiki-links etc. Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:18, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
... extremely blurred ... is the line between English/Noongar and more words are being taken up by South-west Australian English every day— That may be true, but I do not think it is relevant here. We are not debating the use of boomerang vs throwing stick, or quokka vs giant rat. If the Noongar word would stand alone in the article (as boomerang or quokka would) without needing an English translation, you'd have a point, but djiriji, yongka, ngawoo etc would be meaningless without the English word to explain them. (In fact the current use of gilgies is a good example of a Noongar word that has been adopted into English and thus can be used without the need for a "translation".) Mitch Ames ( talk) 14:03, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
not a boomerang— OK, my mistake, but my point still stands; there's a big difference between using quokka or gilgie, vs using djiriji, yongka, ngawoo. Mitch Ames ( talk) 14:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)