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Image:War of the Pacific LOCK map.png The region ocupied by chileans in Tacna is incorrect. The limit was Sama river.
Image:Gdp.ops.en.400.png This map is incorrect. Arica, Iquique and Pisagua were peruvian towns until 1884. -- Arafael ( talk) 13:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Arafael ( talk) 17:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I do not quite understand what you mean but let’s see.
1) I don’t know what you mean so please elaborate on that.
2)If there’s different estimates for the strength of each army, then, we should reference and include all approximations. And no, it’s not better without the figures. It’s better to have discrepancies and approximates (with references) than nothing at all. This is common practice in all war-related articles.
3) There’s no such a thing as coast of Bolivia. South pacific coast of South America or Coast of South America is more generic and remains unchanged despite the outcome of the war.
4) As far as I know, The Chilean army occupied Peru way past Tacna for several years. But I’ll be more than happy to help with the correction, as long as you can present a source for that.
5)Incorrect. The Treaty of Treaty of Ancón was signed on October 1883, by which Peru's Tarapacá province was ceded to the victor; on its part, Bolivia was forced to cede Antofagasta.
Likeminas ( talk) 18:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
1)Yes, as per the Bolivian claim, the contract was not valid since it had not been approved by the Bolivian congress. If you want, you can add that line. But please avoid using weasel wording.
2)Again. All figures need to be included despite discrepancies, as long as they’re referenced.
3)Adding “Bolivian Coast” is not only inaccurate but also somewhat weasel.
I doubt anybody would think we’re referring to the coast of Santiago (by the way there’s no sea there) when they have a huge picture depicting the geographical location.
4)What do understand by “occupied territories”? -Is Lima north of Tacna? Was Lima, thus, Tacna occupied for more than 3 yrs by the Chilean army?
5)The map is clearly showing the present-day borders. But that's not the purpose of the map. That map is intented to present a rough illustration of major military developments.
Again, is not intended to show any border shifts.
Likeminas (
talk) 20:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
2)Most war-related articles (if not all) have the army strength figures right there in the box. This is standard practice. I suggest we leave them in the box and if you like we could add a small mention of them within the article.
3) If we were to say Coast of Bolivia or Coast of Chile; we would arbitrarily have to choose between a point in time of what used to be Bolivian territory and what it is now Chilean. So you say, we should call it what it used to be before the war. But why not after????? Being this a rather touchy and delicate subject, I personally believe we should use a more generic name that doesn’t necessarily gives any undue weight to either side. Here I suggest we used something generic such as the Geographic parallels.
4)Fine. We could use that map.
5) Are you looking at the same map I’m looking? [11]
Likeminas ( talk) 16:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
3)Let’s just leave that as it is. It’s very unlikely that somebody will confuse that region, especially, when the names of the countries involved are right there in the map.
Likeminas ( talk) 18:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I’m inclined for a location name that was not affected by the territorial changes of the war. Geographical coordinates is definitely one.
But once again, I would just leave it as it is. It’s very self-explanatory for anyone with basic geographical knowledge. Now if you insist on giving it a name, at least, use the names of the regions, Tarapaca and Antofagasta, repesctively. Likeminas ( talk) 21:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
6) Got it. it's good that you noticed and fixed it.
3)Ok I did check several war-related articles and most name just the countries. You want to add more to the obvious? Go ahead and put the names of Peru and Bolivia. I have no intention of keep arguing about a minor thing over and over, but what's wrong with naming the location Tarapaca and Antofagasta Regions?
Likeminas ( talk) 15:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
3) Agree. Antofagasta is the current name. In 1879 it was "Litoral Department" with three towns: Antofagasta, Cobija and Mejillones. The war was not only in Tarapaca and Antofagasta. The list could be long.
7) Please review dates. Your change is incorrect.
Arafael ( talk) 17:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
3)Here we go again. Yes the list could be long, but the main battle fields were those two regions. As I said, if you want to add more to something already pretty evident then do so.
7) Technically is not incorrect. But I do see where one might get confused. I will fix it.
Likeminas ( talk) 18:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The dry climate of the area... wich area? Arafael ( talk) 21:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Please read http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaraci%C3%B3n_de_ruptura_de_comunicaciones_con_Chile_y_embargo_de_propiedades_de_s%C3%BAbditos_chilenos where the document says that Bolivia declares war to Chile?
Arafael ( talk) 18:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Did you happen to notice that big and well-marked reference that I added after that phrase? Or you just ignored it?
This is a Fact: Bolivia declared war on Chile on March 1 of 1879. Chile followed suit and declared war on both Peru and Bolivia on April of the same year. Here's another source stating the same thing.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/war-of-the-pacific.htm
Likeminas ( talk) 20:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Please read
http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaraci%C3%B3n_de_ruptura_de_comunicaciones_con_Chile_y_embargo_de_propiedades_de_s%C3%BAbditos_chilenos where the document says that Bolivia declares war to Chile?
Please read
http://www.correodelsur.net/2004/0214/opinion2.shtml.
Your "fact" is not neutral.
The map is repetead three times.
Huascar did not surrendered.
Arafael (
talk) 18:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm not too keen to repeat myself, especially when I think I'm being crystal clear. But let me say this one more time. Hopefully this time it sinks in.
Who says that I'm using (
http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaraci%C3%) to claim that Bolivia declared war on Chile? Where do I say that?
Please understand, that the source(s) I'm using
[19]
[20] is not the one you're talking about.
I tried to open the link you posted but to no available. Please post a working link from a realible website if you're going to dispute the neutrality of my sources.
Likeminas (
talk) 20:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
May 1st 1879 decret:
[25] where the May 1st 1879 decret says that Bolivia declares war on Chile?
This is just silly. I said several times I'm not using that reference. Why do you keep repeating yourself?
For Bolivia declaring war on Chile please read:
[26] (Chilean source) and international, thus, neutral sources [
[27],
[28],
[29] and
[30].
From another online encyclopedia: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761565235/war_of_the_pacific.html
And that was just a quick search, there's plenty more sources corroborating this information.
As per the Huascar surrendering or not here's a source stating just that
[34] and here's a book stating the same
[35]
but I guess can work out other type of wording such as: The Huascar was, then, taken over or something of that kind.
With respect to the maps. I will restore it, as it a different map. And I will revert your edit in regards to the occupation of Lima, since, that's only a city of the many occupied. Peru as whole is more accurate.
Likeminas ( talk) 16:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
As it seems to me, this is the most correct information that I have found regarding this matter:
[40]. In summary, it basically states that (in order):
However, from Arafael's perspective, his statement can indeed be correct. Bolivian decrees by no means actually declare a war on Chile, at least not the ones that Arafael has shown. Additionally, why would Peru attempt to "mediate" a conflict if war had already been declared? It seems to me that there is something more to this story than what "neutral" sources that do not understand the subject might say. I think that Arafael might really be on to something when he states that Chile might have misunderstood Bolivia's decree as a declaration of war, even though it really was not. However, these are just ideas that could and should be considered personal research since the "neutral" sources claim otherwise. Let me end this small statement of mine by pointing out that all three sides of the conflict are generally taught incorrect information regarding the true events that took place prior to the War of the Pacific. One of the most clear examples that comes to my mind is that in Chile people are generally taught that Peru's and Bolivia's alliance was aggressive and directed towards Chile; when the case comes to show that in fact it was a defensive alliance that was not aimed at Chile but rather at all the neighbors of both nations (such as Ecuador for Peru).-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 05:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
The brief summary from your first comment seems to be on the right track.
Now let’s examine that second statement. I think at this point we can safely agree that the decree Arafael keeps posting is not a declaration of war. In any case, let me reiterate that I’m using that document to backup any claim.
Arafael, I believe, (please correct me if I’m wrong) is of the idea that a source to back up the claim that Bolivia declared war on Chile must be in the form of a decree.
You ask why Peru would attempt to "mediate" a conflict if war had already been declared.?
If we consider the Bolivian tax hike(1878) and the Chilean occupation of Antogafasta (Feb. 1879) as turning points of the conflict while keeping in mind that Bolivia declared war on Chile on March 1st of 1879, we're still left with an open window (of a couple of months) for the mediation scenario, before the war was officially declared.
That the Chilean government misunderstood the rupture of relations with Bolivia, for a declaration of war, is a statement that I’m sure can be sourced as the history written by individuals in the countries involved tend to give different perspectives of how things happened.
So being faced with the issue of neutrality...Should we use a Peruvian, Bolivian or Chilean source to settle this issue, despite justifiable concerns of POV for each country? or should we go with a neutral publication such as MSN
Encarta or
globalsecurity.org?
So far, I've listed at least 3 books, another online encyclopedia and 5 websites. Most (if not all) reliable, easily veriafiable in English (for the English Wikipedia).
Whether these sources know or understand in great depth the subject at hand, I don’t know. See, I’m not a historian. And even I was, my opinions on how well these sources understand the subject is as you correctly put it Original Reserach What we should be worrying about, is whether the sources are WP:NPOV and WP:V.
Likeminas ( talk) 16:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
There are two ways to solve this, I think. The first is to include both ideas into the article somehow. For example, Although it is generally understood that Bolivia declared war on May 1st of YEAR, according to decrees and analysis regarding the Bolivian governmental actions of that time it is possible that Chile might have misunderstood aggresive Bolivian diplomacy as a declaration of war even though no formal war was actually declared at that time. OR Bolivian decrees and historical analysis of the governmental actions taken by Bolivia on May 1st point towards Bolivia declaring no war at all, but rather simply show that Bolivia made a series of aggressive diplomatic actions, such as the expulsion of Chileans and the taking of Chilean private property. Although it is a possiblity that Chile might have misunderstood these aggressive actions as a declaration of war, due to the aggressiveness of the Bolivian governmental decrees it is generally agreed that Bolivia declared war on May 1st. I like the second one better, but consensus would be needed. HOWEVER, I would enjoy it even more if the truth was actually uncovered! I really want to know which side is right and which is wrong, because as I stated before: Only one can be right.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 23:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Please ask yourselves these questions:
1. Is the statement Bolivia (regardless of date) declared war on Chile verifiable? 2. Are Encarta and Globalsecurity.org reliable sources of information? 3. Are they written in a neutral language? 4. Are these sources in English as Wikipedia prefers them to be for its English version?
If your answer to all these questions is yes, then, I believe we have settled this issue, unless, another set of equally reliable sources arise.
So the Spanish Wiki-sources Arafael incessantly keeps posting says Bolivia did take action against the company and Chilean interests in the region? Does that automatically contradicts the statement Bolivia declares war on Chile? If so, how exactly? Yes, you can connect certain dots such as In Bolivia only the congress declares war by law but unfortunaly, Wikipedia doesn’t work or rely on deductions. It relies on sources, simple as that.
Yes. Arafael has posted 3 links (in Spanish) of mainly Peruvian and Bolivian historians stating that Bolivia did not declare war on Chile. Well. I have also posted some links to books and websites (in English) not from Chilean, Bolivian or Peruvian historians but from rather neutral people. Which ones do you think we should decide for?
PS: To have a huge template on the article just because one sentence is being disputed makes no sense to me, when we could easily tag just that one line.
So, Arafael, please explain where you see non-neutral statements, and why you believe them to be so.
PSS: Sorry for not tabularizing my text. Likeminas ( talk) 20:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
1. Is the statement Bolivia (regardless of date) declared war on Chile verifiable?
2. Are Encarta and Globalsecurity.org reliable sources of information?
3. Are they written in a neutral language?
4. Are these sources in English as Wikipedia prefers them to be for its English version?
Both of you are obviously at a stalemate, arguing from the same valid points throughout the discussion. Noting the website "GlobalSecurity.org," it states: The turning point of the war was the occupation of Lima on January 17, 1881, a humiliation the Peruvians never forgave. I would like to use this for a small example. Although the source is reliably neutral, the statements it holds are too broad on certain areas. I've studied on the matter of the occupation of Lima by Chilean forces and, according to both what I already knew and to information provided in the WP article, the situation is not as simple as "GlobalSecurity.org" makes it sound. Peru holds a deep sense of anger over the verified destruction that Chile caused to Lima and other cities/towns/villages of Peru. By not mentioning these things, it makes the website seems to make the situation appear as if Peru was just angry that Chile invaded Lima, which is indeed an insult but not one that will keep such a long-standing feud as the one that both countries have had ever since the war.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 00:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC) Basically, the point I'm trying to get to is that while Global Security is reliable, it lacks the specific details that would make it a much more effective/stronger source.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 00:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
By this point and time, I still preffer the idea of introducing both ideas into the article in a peaceful and politically correct manner. I would recommend the two of you to back out a little bit from the argument: The argument is stuck at a stalemate, like I already mentioned. What we currently need are more neutral editors to discuss the subject at hand, which I know that Likeminas has been attempting to get but has received no current reply from them other than me. The problem is that since I'm from Peru, my input into the discussion might be challenged as POV, which I hope the two of you can notice that I'm trying to avoid.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 00:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
MarshalN20, being from Peru doesn’t make your contributions to this article automatically POV. I think you’ve been trying to mediate on this issue from a neutral stance and your input is definitely appreciated it.
It seems to me, though, that Arafael is hardening his position and is unwilling to compromise.
I should also say that whether Arafel likes it or not.
A declaration of war of document is not needed to verify that Bolivia declared war on Chile.
It seems to me that Arafael is not well aware of Wikipedia’s policies. Therefore it’s highly advisable that he familiarizes himself with
WP:V in order to have a well-rounded discussion here.
In any case, let me quote just quickly cite the relevant paragraph from WP:V.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.
See. If Arafael was familiar with policies WP:V and WP:OR he would also know that sources such as Britannica, Encarta and several other online encyclopedias are, in fact, authoritative references thus reliable.
Lastly, I would like to inform anyone interested in this discussion that I'm requesing comments from third parties, in addition to a mediation request I just filed here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2009-04-30/War_of_the_Pacific
And I have posted a message requesting input on the reliability of my sources here:
I have also asked whether the line The turning point of the war was the occupation of Lima on January 17, 1881, a humiliation the Peruvians never forgave compromises the neutrality of the source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#is_Globalsecurity.org_a_Neutral_source.3F
Please notice that other reliable sources such as the New York Times also talk about humiliation [59] in their reports. So that statement can easily be sourced as well, even though, that's not my intention.
Likeminas ( talk) 17:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Here's what people had to say about the ongoing discussion;
There’s an ongoing disagreement on the article War of the Pacific as to whether Bolivia declared war on Chile. Several sources actually state that Bolivia did declare war on Chile. One of them is Globalsecurity.org http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/war-of-the-pacific.htm
One user claims this source is not neutral since within the article there’s the following mention: The turning point of the war was the occupation of Lima on January 17, 1881, a humiliation the Peruvians never forgave, Daza...as brutal and incompetent as his predecessors
Yet, given the context of the war several sources talk about humiliation. See for example the headline of the NY times in 1879. The humiliation of Peru; The battles which preceded the occupation of Lima. [66]
I must also add, that the source is not being used to claim that Chile humiliated Peru during the war, but rather to verify that Bolivia (another country involved) declared war first. Please advice is this a neutral source?
Likeminas ( talk) 16:32, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
There’s an ongoing disagreement on the article War of the Pacific as to whether Bolivia declared war on Chile. Several sources actually state that Bolivia did declare war on Chile. Among those are; Encarta http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761565235/war_of_the_pacific.html ; Onwar.com http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/papa/pacific1879.htm and Globalsecurity.org http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/war-of-the-pacific.htm One user claims these sources are not reliable since they don’t list any references. Is this the case? I read somewhere that Encarta, Britannica and other online encyclopedias are authoritative. Please advice.
Likeminas ( talk) 16:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
There are sources that claim that Bolivia declared war on March 1st, March 8th, and March 14th; along with the sources that claim Bolivia declared no war prior to Chile's declaration of war. Like I pointed out in the article's talk page, I think that it would be best if the information was presented in a neutral point of view where it is noted that it is unknown if Bolivia truly declared war at that particular date.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 22:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
"On March 1st, Bolivia passed an internal decree against Chilean interests, which in turn, were interpreted by the Chilean government as a declaration of war"
Arafael ( talk) 14:39, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Likeminas ( talk) 16:56, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
You should all receive a big thank you for coming to a neutral and peaceful conclusion to this discussion.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 23:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
The above goes without mentioning the rest of what the Bolivian decree states which in turn was interpreted by the Chilean government as a declaration of war.
How about this for statement: "After the Chilean invasion of Antofagasta, Hilarión Daza made a presidential decree which demanded the expulsion of Chileans and the nationalizing of Chilean private property. Due to its aggressiveness, the Chilean government understood the decree as a declaration of war. However, although both nations had already taken aggressive actions, in reality no war had yet been formally declared from either side of the conflict."-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 00:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Image:War of the Pacific LOCK map.png The region ocupied by chileans in Tacna is incorrect. The limit was Sama river.
Image:Gdp.ops.en.400.png This map is incorrect. Arica, Iquique and Pisagua were peruvian towns until 1884. -- Arafael ( talk) 13:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Arafael ( talk) 17:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I do not quite understand what you mean but let’s see.
1) I don’t know what you mean so please elaborate on that.
2)If there’s different estimates for the strength of each army, then, we should reference and include all approximations. And no, it’s not better without the figures. It’s better to have discrepancies and approximates (with references) than nothing at all. This is common practice in all war-related articles.
3) There’s no such a thing as coast of Bolivia. South pacific coast of South America or Coast of South America is more generic and remains unchanged despite the outcome of the war.
4) As far as I know, The Chilean army occupied Peru way past Tacna for several years. But I’ll be more than happy to help with the correction, as long as you can present a source for that.
5)Incorrect. The Treaty of Treaty of Ancón was signed on October 1883, by which Peru's Tarapacá province was ceded to the victor; on its part, Bolivia was forced to cede Antofagasta.
Likeminas ( talk) 18:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
1)Yes, as per the Bolivian claim, the contract was not valid since it had not been approved by the Bolivian congress. If you want, you can add that line. But please avoid using weasel wording.
2)Again. All figures need to be included despite discrepancies, as long as they’re referenced.
3)Adding “Bolivian Coast” is not only inaccurate but also somewhat weasel.
I doubt anybody would think we’re referring to the coast of Santiago (by the way there’s no sea there) when they have a huge picture depicting the geographical location.
4)What do understand by “occupied territories”? -Is Lima north of Tacna? Was Lima, thus, Tacna occupied for more than 3 yrs by the Chilean army?
5)The map is clearly showing the present-day borders. But that's not the purpose of the map. That map is intented to present a rough illustration of major military developments.
Again, is not intended to show any border shifts.
Likeminas (
talk) 20:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
2)Most war-related articles (if not all) have the army strength figures right there in the box. This is standard practice. I suggest we leave them in the box and if you like we could add a small mention of them within the article.
3) If we were to say Coast of Bolivia or Coast of Chile; we would arbitrarily have to choose between a point in time of what used to be Bolivian territory and what it is now Chilean. So you say, we should call it what it used to be before the war. But why not after????? Being this a rather touchy and delicate subject, I personally believe we should use a more generic name that doesn’t necessarily gives any undue weight to either side. Here I suggest we used something generic such as the Geographic parallels.
4)Fine. We could use that map.
5) Are you looking at the same map I’m looking? [11]
Likeminas ( talk) 16:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
3)Let’s just leave that as it is. It’s very unlikely that somebody will confuse that region, especially, when the names of the countries involved are right there in the map.
Likeminas ( talk) 18:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I’m inclined for a location name that was not affected by the territorial changes of the war. Geographical coordinates is definitely one.
But once again, I would just leave it as it is. It’s very self-explanatory for anyone with basic geographical knowledge. Now if you insist on giving it a name, at least, use the names of the regions, Tarapaca and Antofagasta, repesctively. Likeminas ( talk) 21:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
6) Got it. it's good that you noticed and fixed it.
3)Ok I did check several war-related articles and most name just the countries. You want to add more to the obvious? Go ahead and put the names of Peru and Bolivia. I have no intention of keep arguing about a minor thing over and over, but what's wrong with naming the location Tarapaca and Antofagasta Regions?
Likeminas ( talk) 15:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
3) Agree. Antofagasta is the current name. In 1879 it was "Litoral Department" with three towns: Antofagasta, Cobija and Mejillones. The war was not only in Tarapaca and Antofagasta. The list could be long.
7) Please review dates. Your change is incorrect.
Arafael ( talk) 17:40, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
3)Here we go again. Yes the list could be long, but the main battle fields were those two regions. As I said, if you want to add more to something already pretty evident then do so.
7) Technically is not incorrect. But I do see where one might get confused. I will fix it.
Likeminas ( talk) 18:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The dry climate of the area... wich area? Arafael ( talk) 21:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Please read http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaraci%C3%B3n_de_ruptura_de_comunicaciones_con_Chile_y_embargo_de_propiedades_de_s%C3%BAbditos_chilenos where the document says that Bolivia declares war to Chile?
Arafael ( talk) 18:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Did you happen to notice that big and well-marked reference that I added after that phrase? Or you just ignored it?
This is a Fact: Bolivia declared war on Chile on March 1 of 1879. Chile followed suit and declared war on both Peru and Bolivia on April of the same year. Here's another source stating the same thing.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/war-of-the-pacific.htm
Likeminas ( talk) 20:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Please read
http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaraci%C3%B3n_de_ruptura_de_comunicaciones_con_Chile_y_embargo_de_propiedades_de_s%C3%BAbditos_chilenos where the document says that Bolivia declares war to Chile?
Please read
http://www.correodelsur.net/2004/0214/opinion2.shtml.
Your "fact" is not neutral.
The map is repetead three times.
Huascar did not surrendered.
Arafael (
talk) 18:55, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm not too keen to repeat myself, especially when I think I'm being crystal clear. But let me say this one more time. Hopefully this time it sinks in.
Who says that I'm using (
http://es.wikisource.org/wiki/Declaraci%C3%) to claim that Bolivia declared war on Chile? Where do I say that?
Please understand, that the source(s) I'm using
[19]
[20] is not the one you're talking about.
I tried to open the link you posted but to no available. Please post a working link from a realible website if you're going to dispute the neutrality of my sources.
Likeminas (
talk) 20:11, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
May 1st 1879 decret:
[25] where the May 1st 1879 decret says that Bolivia declares war on Chile?
This is just silly. I said several times I'm not using that reference. Why do you keep repeating yourself?
For Bolivia declaring war on Chile please read:
[26] (Chilean source) and international, thus, neutral sources [
[27],
[28],
[29] and
[30].
From another online encyclopedia: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761565235/war_of_the_pacific.html
And that was just a quick search, there's plenty more sources corroborating this information.
As per the Huascar surrendering or not here's a source stating just that
[34] and here's a book stating the same
[35]
but I guess can work out other type of wording such as: The Huascar was, then, taken over or something of that kind.
With respect to the maps. I will restore it, as it a different map. And I will revert your edit in regards to the occupation of Lima, since, that's only a city of the many occupied. Peru as whole is more accurate.
Likeminas ( talk) 16:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
As it seems to me, this is the most correct information that I have found regarding this matter:
[40]. In summary, it basically states that (in order):
However, from Arafael's perspective, his statement can indeed be correct. Bolivian decrees by no means actually declare a war on Chile, at least not the ones that Arafael has shown. Additionally, why would Peru attempt to "mediate" a conflict if war had already been declared? It seems to me that there is something more to this story than what "neutral" sources that do not understand the subject might say. I think that Arafael might really be on to something when he states that Chile might have misunderstood Bolivia's decree as a declaration of war, even though it really was not. However, these are just ideas that could and should be considered personal research since the "neutral" sources claim otherwise. Let me end this small statement of mine by pointing out that all three sides of the conflict are generally taught incorrect information regarding the true events that took place prior to the War of the Pacific. One of the most clear examples that comes to my mind is that in Chile people are generally taught that Peru's and Bolivia's alliance was aggressive and directed towards Chile; when the case comes to show that in fact it was a defensive alliance that was not aimed at Chile but rather at all the neighbors of both nations (such as Ecuador for Peru).-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 05:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
The brief summary from your first comment seems to be on the right track.
Now let’s examine that second statement. I think at this point we can safely agree that the decree Arafael keeps posting is not a declaration of war. In any case, let me reiterate that I’m using that document to backup any claim.
Arafael, I believe, (please correct me if I’m wrong) is of the idea that a source to back up the claim that Bolivia declared war on Chile must be in the form of a decree.
You ask why Peru would attempt to "mediate" a conflict if war had already been declared.?
If we consider the Bolivian tax hike(1878) and the Chilean occupation of Antogafasta (Feb. 1879) as turning points of the conflict while keeping in mind that Bolivia declared war on Chile on March 1st of 1879, we're still left with an open window (of a couple of months) for the mediation scenario, before the war was officially declared.
That the Chilean government misunderstood the rupture of relations with Bolivia, for a declaration of war, is a statement that I’m sure can be sourced as the history written by individuals in the countries involved tend to give different perspectives of how things happened.
So being faced with the issue of neutrality...Should we use a Peruvian, Bolivian or Chilean source to settle this issue, despite justifiable concerns of POV for each country? or should we go with a neutral publication such as MSN
Encarta or
globalsecurity.org?
So far, I've listed at least 3 books, another online encyclopedia and 5 websites. Most (if not all) reliable, easily veriafiable in English (for the English Wikipedia).
Whether these sources know or understand in great depth the subject at hand, I don’t know. See, I’m not a historian. And even I was, my opinions on how well these sources understand the subject is as you correctly put it Original Reserach What we should be worrying about, is whether the sources are WP:NPOV and WP:V.
Likeminas ( talk) 16:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
There are two ways to solve this, I think. The first is to include both ideas into the article somehow. For example, Although it is generally understood that Bolivia declared war on May 1st of YEAR, according to decrees and analysis regarding the Bolivian governmental actions of that time it is possible that Chile might have misunderstood aggresive Bolivian diplomacy as a declaration of war even though no formal war was actually declared at that time. OR Bolivian decrees and historical analysis of the governmental actions taken by Bolivia on May 1st point towards Bolivia declaring no war at all, but rather simply show that Bolivia made a series of aggressive diplomatic actions, such as the expulsion of Chileans and the taking of Chilean private property. Although it is a possiblity that Chile might have misunderstood these aggressive actions as a declaration of war, due to the aggressiveness of the Bolivian governmental decrees it is generally agreed that Bolivia declared war on May 1st. I like the second one better, but consensus would be needed. HOWEVER, I would enjoy it even more if the truth was actually uncovered! I really want to know which side is right and which is wrong, because as I stated before: Only one can be right.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 23:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Please ask yourselves these questions:
1. Is the statement Bolivia (regardless of date) declared war on Chile verifiable? 2. Are Encarta and Globalsecurity.org reliable sources of information? 3. Are they written in a neutral language? 4. Are these sources in English as Wikipedia prefers them to be for its English version?
If your answer to all these questions is yes, then, I believe we have settled this issue, unless, another set of equally reliable sources arise.
So the Spanish Wiki-sources Arafael incessantly keeps posting says Bolivia did take action against the company and Chilean interests in the region? Does that automatically contradicts the statement Bolivia declares war on Chile? If so, how exactly? Yes, you can connect certain dots such as In Bolivia only the congress declares war by law but unfortunaly, Wikipedia doesn’t work or rely on deductions. It relies on sources, simple as that.
Yes. Arafael has posted 3 links (in Spanish) of mainly Peruvian and Bolivian historians stating that Bolivia did not declare war on Chile. Well. I have also posted some links to books and websites (in English) not from Chilean, Bolivian or Peruvian historians but from rather neutral people. Which ones do you think we should decide for?
PS: To have a huge template on the article just because one sentence is being disputed makes no sense to me, when we could easily tag just that one line.
So, Arafael, please explain where you see non-neutral statements, and why you believe them to be so.
PSS: Sorry for not tabularizing my text. Likeminas ( talk) 20:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
1. Is the statement Bolivia (regardless of date) declared war on Chile verifiable?
2. Are Encarta and Globalsecurity.org reliable sources of information?
3. Are they written in a neutral language?
4. Are these sources in English as Wikipedia prefers them to be for its English version?
Both of you are obviously at a stalemate, arguing from the same valid points throughout the discussion. Noting the website "GlobalSecurity.org," it states: The turning point of the war was the occupation of Lima on January 17, 1881, a humiliation the Peruvians never forgave. I would like to use this for a small example. Although the source is reliably neutral, the statements it holds are too broad on certain areas. I've studied on the matter of the occupation of Lima by Chilean forces and, according to both what I already knew and to information provided in the WP article, the situation is not as simple as "GlobalSecurity.org" makes it sound. Peru holds a deep sense of anger over the verified destruction that Chile caused to Lima and other cities/towns/villages of Peru. By not mentioning these things, it makes the website seems to make the situation appear as if Peru was just angry that Chile invaded Lima, which is indeed an insult but not one that will keep such a long-standing feud as the one that both countries have had ever since the war.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 00:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC) Basically, the point I'm trying to get to is that while Global Security is reliable, it lacks the specific details that would make it a much more effective/stronger source.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 00:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
By this point and time, I still preffer the idea of introducing both ideas into the article in a peaceful and politically correct manner. I would recommend the two of you to back out a little bit from the argument: The argument is stuck at a stalemate, like I already mentioned. What we currently need are more neutral editors to discuss the subject at hand, which I know that Likeminas has been attempting to get but has received no current reply from them other than me. The problem is that since I'm from Peru, my input into the discussion might be challenged as POV, which I hope the two of you can notice that I'm trying to avoid.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 00:53, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
MarshalN20, being from Peru doesn’t make your contributions to this article automatically POV. I think you’ve been trying to mediate on this issue from a neutral stance and your input is definitely appreciated it.
It seems to me, though, that Arafael is hardening his position and is unwilling to compromise.
I should also say that whether Arafel likes it or not.
A declaration of war of document is not needed to verify that Bolivia declared war on Chile.
It seems to me that Arafael is not well aware of Wikipedia’s policies. Therefore it’s highly advisable that he familiarizes himself with
WP:V in order to have a well-rounded discussion here.
In any case, let me quote just quickly cite the relevant paragraph from WP:V.
The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true.
See. If Arafael was familiar with policies WP:V and WP:OR he would also know that sources such as Britannica, Encarta and several other online encyclopedias are, in fact, authoritative references thus reliable.
Lastly, I would like to inform anyone interested in this discussion that I'm requesing comments from third parties, in addition to a mediation request I just filed here;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2009-04-30/War_of_the_Pacific
And I have posted a message requesting input on the reliability of my sources here:
I have also asked whether the line The turning point of the war was the occupation of Lima on January 17, 1881, a humiliation the Peruvians never forgave compromises the neutrality of the source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#is_Globalsecurity.org_a_Neutral_source.3F
Please notice that other reliable sources such as the New York Times also talk about humiliation [59] in their reports. So that statement can easily be sourced as well, even though, that's not my intention.
Likeminas ( talk) 17:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Here's what people had to say about the ongoing discussion;
There’s an ongoing disagreement on the article War of the Pacific as to whether Bolivia declared war on Chile. Several sources actually state that Bolivia did declare war on Chile. One of them is Globalsecurity.org http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/war-of-the-pacific.htm
One user claims this source is not neutral since within the article there’s the following mention: The turning point of the war was the occupation of Lima on January 17, 1881, a humiliation the Peruvians never forgave, Daza...as brutal and incompetent as his predecessors
Yet, given the context of the war several sources talk about humiliation. See for example the headline of the NY times in 1879. The humiliation of Peru; The battles which preceded the occupation of Lima. [66]
I must also add, that the source is not being used to claim that Chile humiliated Peru during the war, but rather to verify that Bolivia (another country involved) declared war first. Please advice is this a neutral source?
Likeminas ( talk) 16:32, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
There’s an ongoing disagreement on the article War of the Pacific as to whether Bolivia declared war on Chile. Several sources actually state that Bolivia did declare war on Chile. Among those are; Encarta http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761565235/war_of_the_pacific.html ; Onwar.com http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/papa/pacific1879.htm and Globalsecurity.org http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/war-of-the-pacific.htm One user claims these sources are not reliable since they don’t list any references. Is this the case? I read somewhere that Encarta, Britannica and other online encyclopedias are authoritative. Please advice.
Likeminas ( talk) 16:15, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
There are sources that claim that Bolivia declared war on March 1st, March 8th, and March 14th; along with the sources that claim Bolivia declared no war prior to Chile's declaration of war. Like I pointed out in the article's talk page, I think that it would be best if the information was presented in a neutral point of view where it is noted that it is unknown if Bolivia truly declared war at that particular date.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 22:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
"On March 1st, Bolivia passed an internal decree against Chilean interests, which in turn, were interpreted by the Chilean government as a declaration of war"
Arafael ( talk) 14:39, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Likeminas ( talk) 16:56, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
You should all receive a big thank you for coming to a neutral and peaceful conclusion to this discussion.-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 23:39, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
The above goes without mentioning the rest of what the Bolivian decree states which in turn was interpreted by the Chilean government as a declaration of war.
How about this for statement: "After the Chilean invasion of Antofagasta, Hilarión Daza made a presidential decree which demanded the expulsion of Chileans and the nationalizing of Chilean private property. Due to its aggressiveness, the Chilean government understood the decree as a declaration of war. However, although both nations had already taken aggressive actions, in reality no war had yet been formally declared from either side of the conflict."-- [|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] ( talk) 00:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC)