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The article incorrectly states the city of Astorga to be in Galicia. It is in fact, in Leon. -- Bistor92 03:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I see this fact now corrected as stated above, but it still deserves some discussion:
Actually, Astorga (then "Asturica" or "Asturica Augusta") was probably the largest city in the province of Gallaecia, created in the Diocletian's Reorganization of 298 AD. A division which was still regarded at the time of the Kingdom of Toledo, while León (then "Legio") was only a walled city and the former seat of the Legio VII.
It was only after the Muslim conquest of the Peninsula, and the subsequent creation of the Christian Kingdoms, that León rose as one of them, when the Kingdom of Asturias marched southward and stablished its capital city in the ancient Legio.
The current province of Leon, which includes Astorga in its territory, dates back to the Administrative Division of 1833. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.33.185.26 ( talk) 16:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
(removed from article page) Did they conquer North Africa, or is that the Vandals I am thinking of?
Actually, they did not take Spain until later... the peace settlement placed them in Aquitania.
"After peace was secured a few years later, Honorius granted the Visigoths lands in the Aquitaine area of modern France,"
They were in the Roman province of Aquitaine, not the French province of Aquitaine. Toulouse was in Aquitania.
What are the origins of the visigoths? I remember reading the original theory was southern Sweden (goths from Germany but the group itself from southern Sweden and moved south)...
Where were the visigoths from?
Caroline296 —Preceding undated comment added 17:23, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Anonymous User:68.49.159.131 has ranged through many of the Gothic kings, changing dozens of names and dates. See User history. These changes need to be vetted for accuracy. Such wholesale changes are frequently agenda-driven, with no base in documented history. -- Wetman 01:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Are there any references to the Visigoths (not to the Thervingi) before A.D. 390? The Hun War, Roman War, and settlement all divide the earlier (Therving) history from the later (Visigothic history) and there is no reason to assume that the older Therving identity corresponds with the later Visigothic identity. Heather 1996 pp. 111ff observes that the later Visigoths included some non-Therving and excluded some Therving groups. Jacob Haller 07:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Ghepeu added the History of Spain template. I've just added the History of Portugal template. Iberia pr Hispania, covers not only the modern country of Spain, but Portugal also. The word "Spain" in modern English (and its counterparts in other languages) means the country of Spain, not all of the Iberian peninsula (as the respective articles show). The fact is that Castillian expansionism over the centuries (ask not only the Portuguese, but also the Galicians, the Basques or the Catalans...) tried to monopolize the definition of Iberia in a way that satisfied its imperial interests. In fact, even if Spain was used in ancient times to refer to the whole of Iberia, today it is not. In this sense, given that the Kingdom of Spain only emerges with the union of Castille and Aragon in 1492 (and this is disputed since Navarre was only incoporated in 1512), one can almost say that there was never a Spain before that! It was Iberia that was conquered by the Romans, who called it Hispania. The country of Spain didn't exist then. It was Hispania that was conquered by Suevi, Vandals, Alans and Visigoths. The country of Spain didn't exist then. It was Visigothic Hispania that was conquered by the Moors. The country of Spain didn't exist then. The Moorish conquest was of Iberia or Hispania (that should not be confused with Spain, even if the term Hispanic is used to denote Spanish speaking peoples). This conquest and subsequent occupation led to a Christian reaction know as the Reconquista from which several Christian kingdoms emerged (such as Asturias, León, Castille, Portugal, Navarre, etc.). Over time Castille came to dominate most of Iberia (but not Portugal, except for a small period between 1580 and 1640) and the use of the castillian word "España" (which is the castillian version of latin Hispania) started as a political strategy to curb autonomy or independence from centralist Madrid (for the same reason Castillian language started to be known as Spanish, implying the irrelevance of other Iberian languages - this was still a problem in the Spain of the 20th century, with the active repression of languages other than Castillian). Furthermore, if you call Spain to the Iberian peninsula, this not only is simply not true, but is felt as profoundly offensive at least by the Portuguese. For all these reasons and more, if this article has the History of Spain template, it must also have the History of Portugal template. The Ogre 16:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Surely this article is about the collective people, not just one individual. Appears to be inconsistent to have an article named Visigoth, and then start off the article with the sentence: "The Visigoths were one of two main branches of... " Downwards 07:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The offered definition does not describe Wulfilan theology as attested by the letter of Auxentius or the later Gothic theology of the Skeireins. Jacob Haller 07:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I have a Spanish book published by Juan Antonio Cebrian about the Visigoths in Spain starting with Alaric I. The chapters are organized by each succeeding King with a portrait of each King. Would it be alright to scan and add the pictures of each King at the top of their respective articles, to add a face to what many might consider a "dry" period of history? Also what kind of file type would be advisable?
I created a seperate page for the Thervings editing the relevent sections from this article to create the stub. Jacob Haller 05:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone add a little about what happens to the Visigoths after the Moors take over Spain? 24.240.36.221 04:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Some elite Visgoths even converted to Islam and married into Moorish families, or so I've read. Purely political alliances, most likely. Some powerful Visigothic or Ibero-Roman families remained prominent in Islamic Iberia, at least for a few centuries. Of course this varied with place, there were also poor Visigoths, and anyway the evidence is scarce, etc... FilipeS 19:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Corrected the starting year to 376 (see Talk:Gothic War (377-382) and the text here. More than two leaders (Fritigern, Alaviv (if another person), Alatheus, Saphrax, Farnobius, Athanaric, Munderic, Lagariman, Odotheus (attested 380s), (bishop) Wulfila, Gaaththa (attested 380s), Arimer...). Not known who did the ferrying. Rome unwilling (not unable) to feed or settle refugees (see Ammianus book 31 chapter 5). No evidence of false message or unreliable intelligence (check Ammianus book 31 chapter 12 and Delbrück's study of the campaign). Jacob Haller 13:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, for the Alaric section, there is nothing to suggest the Romans negotiated with Fritigern in particular. Peter Heather discusses this in some of his works. Jacob Haller 13:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
It's extremely difficult to understand the history of this article if the sections cant flow chronologically. Kendirangu 11:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
he was on the othere said of the romen empaire. in the artikel about attila they said he invayeded the visigoth. had the vusigoth had a former empaire ?
𐌷𐌴𐌹𐌻𐍃! The section is intriguing, but written like a scientific article, not an encyclopedic one. It reasons to much and it weights the sides and arguments too much. The section name should be Thervingi or Thervingi Connection. Double blipps " are ugly in a section title, and Visigoths are already the topic of the article. The two or three last paragraphs in that section belongs to some other section. The reference should also be shorter, such as (Eutr. Brev. 8, 2, 2) [1], moved to the <ref>-part. Rursus 11:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Disputes: Paragraphs 3 and 4 assume that the Thervingi and Vesi are one people, that the Greutungi and Ostrogothi are one people, and that the Thervingi and Greutungi were the branches of the Goths in the fourth century. Also, does the term Ostrogothi appear by the fifth century (before the end of the fourth century) or only in the (late) fifth century? Jacob Haller 19:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
"The Battle of Adrianople in 378 was the decisive moment of the war. The Roman forces were slaughtered; the Emperor Valens was killed during the fighting, shocking the Roman world and eventually forcing the Romans to negotiate with and settle the Barbarians on Roman land, a new trend with far reaching consequences for the eventual fall of the Roman Empire"
For One thing, Peter Heather, in his Book, "The Fall of the Roman Empire" adds an 'H' on to Adrianople, so check the correct spelling on this. Further, you might want to reconsider the claim that this battle was the decisive moment, seeing as how it occurred only a third of the way into the War. If it was truly forced the Romans to negotiate then why did it take four additional years to end the conflict?? And how seeing how this was the only significant Gothic Victory in the war.
"The Battle of Adrianople in 378 was the decisive moment of the war. The Roman forces were slaughtered; the Emperor Valens was killed during the fighting, shocking the Roman world and eventually forcing the Romans to negotiate with and settle the Barbarians on Roman land, a new trend with far reaching consequences for the eventual fall of the Roman Empire"
For One thing, Peter Heather, in his Book, "The Fall of the Roman Empire" adds an 'H' on to Adrianople, so check the correct spelling on this. Further, you might want to reconsider the claim that this battle was the decisive moment, seeing as how it occurred only a third of the way into the War. If it was truly forced the Romans to negotiate then why did it take four additional years to end the conflict?? And how seeing how this was the only significant Gothic Victory in the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.8.193.37 ( talk) 15:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I have suggested that Visigothic Kingdom, a rather disjointed article I suspect was created by babel-fish from a foreign source, be merged into this one. I don't know enough about it to do it myself though. MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 14:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, the spam filter prevented me from adding this af:Wesgote interwiki link, can someone please assist. laurens ( talk) 18:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
This is one of the poorer history articles I've seen in WP. It seems to be a collection of facts glued together without any interest. After reading it, I know little about the Visigoths, as a people, as a culture, as a force in the world. There isn't a drop of life in the whole thing. These people *must* be interesting, wherever they came from. They must have been pretty good warriors, because they did some nasty to the Romans and the Greeks. There must have been some drama around their defeat by the Muslims. But none of that human drama comes through in this arid survey. No worries for Cliff's Notes *here*. Twang ( talk) 02:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
This date is in the arian page and if correct it should be on this one. Also the religion section should start with pre-christian beliefs if anything is know about them. Or say we know nothing about their religion prior to their conversion to Christianity. Nitpyck ( talk) 17:35, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
The Tervingi and Greuthingi of the 3rh century were different political entities to the Ostro and Visi-goths of the 5th, which cannot be equated straightforwardly. Eg the ostrogoths were a union of two or three different Balkan Gothic groups (predominantly the Amal led Goths in Pannonia and the Thracian Gothic foederati formerly led by Theodoric Strabo). This need to be highlighted, and the verbose and confusing paragraph about Tervingi- Visigothi as it stands need serious work Hxseek ( talk) 05:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyone know where I can find information on clothing and armor and such? Needed for an indie film I'd like to be as accurate as possible. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.237.95.62 ( talk) 22:22, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
The Vesi seem to have emerged out of the events of 376-383. and the Visogoths proper out of the events of 395-418. I think it's anachronistic and misleading to backdate the Visigoths to include earlier groups, or to claim Visigoths during the conversion period, the Battle of Adrianople, etc. 71.191.228.6 ( talk) 18:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Unless this is the German Wikipedia because we're writing in German. We're writing in English, which we tend to consider a distinct language. English and German are more closely related to each other than Gothic is to English or German. Goths share some of the origins of the other Germanic people, but that doesn't mean Goths are Germans, or Swedes, or what-have-you. 71.191.228.6 ( talk) 18:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I had read elsewhere that the earlier Voisigoths had been relatively tolerant, while the later Catholic Visigoths launched large-scale persecutions. I don't have a source handy, but the current text implies the opposite. 71.191.233.216 ( talk) 01:12, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
This culture was warlike enough that the article needs at least a section and bare discussion of the army and fighting techniques. (Be sure to include a link to the otherwise orphaned article on Thiufa and Thiufadus.) I don't know enough about the subject to do this, however. Anyone? Molly-in-md ( talk) 12:38, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
There are some connections regarding the Visigoths that may deserve enlargement in the main article from somebody with a good knowledge of the subject. Goth sounds close to the old word that is in the root of the German and English word for God and Gott, meaning "The one who is invoked". Visigoths in Spain were also called and called themselves "Jetas", and as one of the name of the old Hittite culture was "Khetta", it points to some cultural bonds between the Visigoths and the Hittites, however, genetic data tell that Hittites were not an homogeneous group, but there can be suspects that the Visigoths that arrived to Iberia actually were quite close in appearance one to another. The period of the fading of Roman authority in Iberia was linked to anarchistic conditions, people unable to maintain the usual agriculture activities because of the lack of safety of the region were no effective protective authority existed ended starving, and there are written records of beasts feeding on dead and attacking those alive, this were the times of Swabians, Alans and Vandals, these last still remembered today in places such as Germany as a synonym of destructive and brutal behavior. The Visigoths' arrival started to establish a period of effective rule of law, and things improved fast. The religion of Visigoths before bishop Ulfilas taught them the Arian Christianity was a solar cult, similar to the old one in Greece that evolved into the Apollion cult, and as Ulfilas taught them their former Gothic deities were all devils, the names of the former Visigoth gods arrived to us as names of malignant beings, such as Alberic, an equivalent of Oberon and of Amalaric; this can be found in recent literary and musical works, but after some time in Iberia, Visigoths decided to switch from Arianism to Catholicism, just with the aim of avoiding a source of conflict with the peoples in Iberia, that all were catholic, as early as when saint Peter was still alive, records exist of a bishop erected in what is today Malaga, Visigoths became actual rules of the Peninsula because the Roman authority that had subdued by force the Iberians had faded, and Visigoths that had joined the Roman army but were allowed to preserve their own authorities and rules inside the Imperial army, found themselves as the sole organized and effective force. Among the peculiarities of the Roman invasion of Iberia, records exist about some villagers burning their homes and precipitating themselves into the fire to avoid being subdued by Romans. The Visigoths arriving to Iberia may have had a connection with the European peoples who came to India, one of the Iberian Gothic queens had the name "Goswintha", meaning "The path of the cows", that is obviously an equivalent to the names used today in India "Govinda" and "Govind"; also the name of the Buddha: "Gautama" has some phonetic similarities to surnames existing today in Iberia and other European places such as "Gaetan" and "Gaytan".-- Jgrosay ( talk) 16:13, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
The article says: "the Kingdom of Asturias, which had been founded by the Visigothic nobleman Pelagius". Can you give a rational explanation of the fact that this "Visigothic" nobleman has a Latin name Pelagius, some similar to "sailorman", from Greek Pelagos = sea. Can you also explain in wich manner is reasonable that one of the northern Hispanic peoples like Asturians, Cantabrians and Basques a day fight againsts Goths and the next one choose one of them as king? Please, actualise your bibliography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.32.194 ( talk) 21:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
i think they are cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.58.253.4 ( talk) 16:30, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
True. The name Pelagius was very common in the Late Romanity and Early Middle Age in the North Western area of Iberia. It seems to be an autochtonous Hispano-Roman personal name. Compare this name with all the known Gothic names, all of them Germanic names. Till, there are nont only the Christian sources that speak about the battle of Covadonga, but also the Moorish sources. They called Pelagius "Belay al Rumí" = Pelagius the Roman. Practically all the modern Spanish scholars affirm that Pelagius was Asturian, it is to say, an Hispano-Roman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.63.56 ( talk) 14:20, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I just split the following paragraph at the sentence beginning with "King Reccared":
"Catholic conversion across Visigothic society reduced much of the friction between their people and the native Spanish population.[86] One chief purpose of this conversion was to unify the realm under the Church, and one of the key complaints of the Church had long been that Jews had too much status, prosperity and influence. Local nobles relied on their Jewish and non-Jewish sectors of the population to enhance the local economy and the noble's independent power. Visigothic political structure had traditionally given extensive powers to local nobles (who even elected their kings), so the king was in many ways merely 'the first amongst equals,' and central authority was weak. The status of the Jews therefore impacted local aristocrats both symbolically and politically. King Reccared convened the Third Council of Toledo to settle religious disputations related to the religious conversion from Arianism to Catholicism. The discriminatory laws passed at this Council seem not to have been universally enforced, however, as indicated by several more Councils of Toledo that repeated these laws and extended their stringency. These entered canon law and became legal precedents in other parts of Europe as well. The culmination of this process occurred under King Sisibut, who decreed a forced Christian conversion upon all Jews in Spain. This mandate apparently achieved only partial success: similar decrees were repeated by later kings as central power was consolidated. These laws either prescribed forcible baptism of the Jews or forbade circumcision, Jewish rites, and the observance of the Sabbath and other festivals. Throughout the seventh century, Jews were flogged, executed, had their property confiscated, were subjected to ruinous taxes, forbidden to trade and, at times, dragged to the baptismal font. Many were obliged to accept Christianity but continued privately to observe the Jewish religion and practices.[89] The decree of 613 set off a century of torment for Spanish Jewry, which was only ended by the Muslim conquest."
However, I'm wondering if the sentence beginning with "[t]he culmination" wouldn't have been better. Could anyone please tell me which (if either) they think is best?-- Thylacine24 ( talk) 04:02, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Goths were from Sweden, Not Germany
I find this article is frequently referred to. For example both Heather and Halsall seem to see it positively.
I found it mentioned by Heather as a quite relevant looking (for us as editors) comment about the difficulty of using Wolfram as a source. See here.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:54, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
There is a Genetics section currently but it offers no information. Only links to other articles that also don't have information on Visigoth genetics.
The following 3 sources suggest Visigoths were associated with R1A and R1b-S21. https://indo-european.eu/2019/07/vikings-vikings-vikings-influx-of-eastern-ancestry-in-the-whole-baltic-iron-age/ http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/lineagesS21.html https://books.google.com/books?id=L57TDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT66&lpg=PT66&dq=R1a+visigoth&source=bl&ots=tXvQZFrx9R&sig=ACfU3U2if0KipXtCuN-k9CWxkaIhjo8zvg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXwOaXis3qAhVtHjQIHZmPDB0Q6AEwCnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=R1a%20visigoth&f=false
Note that does not mean these haplogroups were only associated with visigoths; but the explanation for their occurrence in Iberia is best explained by migrations during the fall of the Roman empire of Germanic peoples.
The following maps are for the distribution of general Germanic Y DNA Haplogroup I1, and the two more specifically associated with Visigoths, R1b-S21, and R1A.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml
(Especially for the last one you will need to scroll down to find the correct map that shows the distribution of R1b-S-21. I did not want to link these outside of the original sources they appear in)
Note how R1A, usually an east European Slavic marker, was likely present in East Germanic groups like the Goths who lived for some time in modern Ukraine. R1A was also spread by Vikings, note of the R1A corresponds to many of the Roman era invasions by East Germans and later Viking peoples or their Norman descendants. R1A peaks in Iberia around 8.5% in some parts of Cantabria. Also note the the concentration of R1A in the area of SE France that was settled by the Burgundians, another East Germanic group.
-- Avarserda ( talk) 15:56, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
The page: Muslim Conquest of the Iberian Peninsula should be added to the ‘related articles’ section. As I am a new editor I want to vet this plan first. Thanks, Tmarac ( talk) 18:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
New suggestion, what is the feedback?
There should be a link to the page "Barbarian kingdoms" because it provides a clearer overview. The sentence "The Visigoths (/ˈvɪzɪɡɒθs/; Latin: Visigothi, Wisigothi, Vesi, Visi, Wesi, Wisi) were a Germanic people united under the rule of a king and living within the Roman Empire during late antiquity." could be improved by including "Barbarian kingdoms" in the text. The highlighted "Germanic" people takes a reader only to that page, so the reader misses the more holistic review of who the 'barbarians' were.
Many historians have stopped using the term "Germanic".Please see the quote from Jamie Wood:
"In the past, the terms ‘German’ or ‘Germanic’ might have been adopted to describe the groups of the migration period, but because the idea of common German political identity is largely a construct of the early modern and modern periods these terms are less useful for our purposes than the term ‘barbarian' (footnote 15). At least ‘barbarian’ was a term that was used at the time of the migrations." (footnote 16) Wood, Jamie. The Politics of Identity in Visigothic Spain : Religion and Power in the Histories of Isidore of Seville, BRILL, 2012.
Thanks, Terry Tmarac ( talk) 13:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
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The article incorrectly states the city of Astorga to be in Galicia. It is in fact, in Leon. -- Bistor92 03:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
I see this fact now corrected as stated above, but it still deserves some discussion:
Actually, Astorga (then "Asturica" or "Asturica Augusta") was probably the largest city in the province of Gallaecia, created in the Diocletian's Reorganization of 298 AD. A division which was still regarded at the time of the Kingdom of Toledo, while León (then "Legio") was only a walled city and the former seat of the Legio VII.
It was only after the Muslim conquest of the Peninsula, and the subsequent creation of the Christian Kingdoms, that León rose as one of them, when the Kingdom of Asturias marched southward and stablished its capital city in the ancient Legio.
The current province of Leon, which includes Astorga in its territory, dates back to the Administrative Division of 1833. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.33.185.26 ( talk) 16:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
(removed from article page) Did they conquer North Africa, or is that the Vandals I am thinking of?
Actually, they did not take Spain until later... the peace settlement placed them in Aquitania.
"After peace was secured a few years later, Honorius granted the Visigoths lands in the Aquitaine area of modern France,"
They were in the Roman province of Aquitaine, not the French province of Aquitaine. Toulouse was in Aquitania.
What are the origins of the visigoths? I remember reading the original theory was southern Sweden (goths from Germany but the group itself from southern Sweden and moved south)...
Where were the visigoths from?
Caroline296 —Preceding undated comment added 17:23, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
Anonymous User:68.49.159.131 has ranged through many of the Gothic kings, changing dozens of names and dates. See User history. These changes need to be vetted for accuracy. Such wholesale changes are frequently agenda-driven, with no base in documented history. -- Wetman 01:40, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Are there any references to the Visigoths (not to the Thervingi) before A.D. 390? The Hun War, Roman War, and settlement all divide the earlier (Therving) history from the later (Visigothic history) and there is no reason to assume that the older Therving identity corresponds with the later Visigothic identity. Heather 1996 pp. 111ff observes that the later Visigoths included some non-Therving and excluded some Therving groups. Jacob Haller 07:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Ghepeu added the History of Spain template. I've just added the History of Portugal template. Iberia pr Hispania, covers not only the modern country of Spain, but Portugal also. The word "Spain" in modern English (and its counterparts in other languages) means the country of Spain, not all of the Iberian peninsula (as the respective articles show). The fact is that Castillian expansionism over the centuries (ask not only the Portuguese, but also the Galicians, the Basques or the Catalans...) tried to monopolize the definition of Iberia in a way that satisfied its imperial interests. In fact, even if Spain was used in ancient times to refer to the whole of Iberia, today it is not. In this sense, given that the Kingdom of Spain only emerges with the union of Castille and Aragon in 1492 (and this is disputed since Navarre was only incoporated in 1512), one can almost say that there was never a Spain before that! It was Iberia that was conquered by the Romans, who called it Hispania. The country of Spain didn't exist then. It was Hispania that was conquered by Suevi, Vandals, Alans and Visigoths. The country of Spain didn't exist then. It was Visigothic Hispania that was conquered by the Moors. The country of Spain didn't exist then. The Moorish conquest was of Iberia or Hispania (that should not be confused with Spain, even if the term Hispanic is used to denote Spanish speaking peoples). This conquest and subsequent occupation led to a Christian reaction know as the Reconquista from which several Christian kingdoms emerged (such as Asturias, León, Castille, Portugal, Navarre, etc.). Over time Castille came to dominate most of Iberia (but not Portugal, except for a small period between 1580 and 1640) and the use of the castillian word "España" (which is the castillian version of latin Hispania) started as a political strategy to curb autonomy or independence from centralist Madrid (for the same reason Castillian language started to be known as Spanish, implying the irrelevance of other Iberian languages - this was still a problem in the Spain of the 20th century, with the active repression of languages other than Castillian). Furthermore, if you call Spain to the Iberian peninsula, this not only is simply not true, but is felt as profoundly offensive at least by the Portuguese. For all these reasons and more, if this article has the History of Spain template, it must also have the History of Portugal template. The Ogre 16:55, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Surely this article is about the collective people, not just one individual. Appears to be inconsistent to have an article named Visigoth, and then start off the article with the sentence: "The Visigoths were one of two main branches of... " Downwards 07:00, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
The offered definition does not describe Wulfilan theology as attested by the letter of Auxentius or the later Gothic theology of the Skeireins. Jacob Haller 07:49, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I have a Spanish book published by Juan Antonio Cebrian about the Visigoths in Spain starting with Alaric I. The chapters are organized by each succeeding King with a portrait of each King. Would it be alright to scan and add the pictures of each King at the top of their respective articles, to add a face to what many might consider a "dry" period of history? Also what kind of file type would be advisable?
I created a seperate page for the Thervings editing the relevent sections from this article to create the stub. Jacob Haller 05:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone add a little about what happens to the Visigoths after the Moors take over Spain? 24.240.36.221 04:14, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Some elite Visgoths even converted to Islam and married into Moorish families, or so I've read. Purely political alliances, most likely. Some powerful Visigothic or Ibero-Roman families remained prominent in Islamic Iberia, at least for a few centuries. Of course this varied with place, there were also poor Visigoths, and anyway the evidence is scarce, etc... FilipeS 19:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Corrected the starting year to 376 (see Talk:Gothic War (377-382) and the text here. More than two leaders (Fritigern, Alaviv (if another person), Alatheus, Saphrax, Farnobius, Athanaric, Munderic, Lagariman, Odotheus (attested 380s), (bishop) Wulfila, Gaaththa (attested 380s), Arimer...). Not known who did the ferrying. Rome unwilling (not unable) to feed or settle refugees (see Ammianus book 31 chapter 5). No evidence of false message or unreliable intelligence (check Ammianus book 31 chapter 12 and Delbrück's study of the campaign). Jacob Haller 13:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Also, for the Alaric section, there is nothing to suggest the Romans negotiated with Fritigern in particular. Peter Heather discusses this in some of his works. Jacob Haller 13:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
It's extremely difficult to understand the history of this article if the sections cant flow chronologically. Kendirangu 11:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
he was on the othere said of the romen empaire. in the artikel about attila they said he invayeded the visigoth. had the vusigoth had a former empaire ?
𐌷𐌴𐌹𐌻𐍃! The section is intriguing, but written like a scientific article, not an encyclopedic one. It reasons to much and it weights the sides and arguments too much. The section name should be Thervingi or Thervingi Connection. Double blipps " are ugly in a section title, and Visigoths are already the topic of the article. The two or three last paragraphs in that section belongs to some other section. The reference should also be shorter, such as (Eutr. Brev. 8, 2, 2) [1], moved to the <ref>-part. Rursus 11:26, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Disputes: Paragraphs 3 and 4 assume that the Thervingi and Vesi are one people, that the Greutungi and Ostrogothi are one people, and that the Thervingi and Greutungi were the branches of the Goths in the fourth century. Also, does the term Ostrogothi appear by the fifth century (before the end of the fourth century) or only in the (late) fifth century? Jacob Haller 19:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
"The Battle of Adrianople in 378 was the decisive moment of the war. The Roman forces were slaughtered; the Emperor Valens was killed during the fighting, shocking the Roman world and eventually forcing the Romans to negotiate with and settle the Barbarians on Roman land, a new trend with far reaching consequences for the eventual fall of the Roman Empire"
For One thing, Peter Heather, in his Book, "The Fall of the Roman Empire" adds an 'H' on to Adrianople, so check the correct spelling on this. Further, you might want to reconsider the claim that this battle was the decisive moment, seeing as how it occurred only a third of the way into the War. If it was truly forced the Romans to negotiate then why did it take four additional years to end the conflict?? And how seeing how this was the only significant Gothic Victory in the war.
"The Battle of Adrianople in 378 was the decisive moment of the war. The Roman forces were slaughtered; the Emperor Valens was killed during the fighting, shocking the Roman world and eventually forcing the Romans to negotiate with and settle the Barbarians on Roman land, a new trend with far reaching consequences for the eventual fall of the Roman Empire"
For One thing, Peter Heather, in his Book, "The Fall of the Roman Empire" adds an 'H' on to Adrianople, so check the correct spelling on this. Further, you might want to reconsider the claim that this battle was the decisive moment, seeing as how it occurred only a third of the way into the War. If it was truly forced the Romans to negotiate then why did it take four additional years to end the conflict?? And how seeing how this was the only significant Gothic Victory in the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.8.193.37 ( talk) 15:28, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
I have suggested that Visigothic Kingdom, a rather disjointed article I suspect was created by babel-fish from a foreign source, be merged into this one. I don't know enough about it to do it myself though. MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 14:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Hi, the spam filter prevented me from adding this af:Wesgote interwiki link, can someone please assist. laurens ( talk) 18:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
This is one of the poorer history articles I've seen in WP. It seems to be a collection of facts glued together without any interest. After reading it, I know little about the Visigoths, as a people, as a culture, as a force in the world. There isn't a drop of life in the whole thing. These people *must* be interesting, wherever they came from. They must have been pretty good warriors, because they did some nasty to the Romans and the Greeks. There must have been some drama around their defeat by the Muslims. But none of that human drama comes through in this arid survey. No worries for Cliff's Notes *here*. Twang ( talk) 02:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
This date is in the arian page and if correct it should be on this one. Also the religion section should start with pre-christian beliefs if anything is know about them. Or say we know nothing about their religion prior to their conversion to Christianity. Nitpyck ( talk) 17:35, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
The Tervingi and Greuthingi of the 3rh century were different political entities to the Ostro and Visi-goths of the 5th, which cannot be equated straightforwardly. Eg the ostrogoths were a union of two or three different Balkan Gothic groups (predominantly the Amal led Goths in Pannonia and the Thracian Gothic foederati formerly led by Theodoric Strabo). This need to be highlighted, and the verbose and confusing paragraph about Tervingi- Visigothi as it stands need serious work Hxseek ( talk) 05:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyone know where I can find information on clothing and armor and such? Needed for an indie film I'd like to be as accurate as possible. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.237.95.62 ( talk) 22:22, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
The Vesi seem to have emerged out of the events of 376-383. and the Visogoths proper out of the events of 395-418. I think it's anachronistic and misleading to backdate the Visigoths to include earlier groups, or to claim Visigoths during the conversion period, the Battle of Adrianople, etc. 71.191.228.6 ( talk) 18:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
Unless this is the German Wikipedia because we're writing in German. We're writing in English, which we tend to consider a distinct language. English and German are more closely related to each other than Gothic is to English or German. Goths share some of the origins of the other Germanic people, but that doesn't mean Goths are Germans, or Swedes, or what-have-you. 71.191.228.6 ( talk) 18:38, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
I had read elsewhere that the earlier Voisigoths had been relatively tolerant, while the later Catholic Visigoths launched large-scale persecutions. I don't have a source handy, but the current text implies the opposite. 71.191.233.216 ( talk) 01:12, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
This culture was warlike enough that the article needs at least a section and bare discussion of the army and fighting techniques. (Be sure to include a link to the otherwise orphaned article on Thiufa and Thiufadus.) I don't know enough about the subject to do this, however. Anyone? Molly-in-md ( talk) 12:38, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
There are some connections regarding the Visigoths that may deserve enlargement in the main article from somebody with a good knowledge of the subject. Goth sounds close to the old word that is in the root of the German and English word for God and Gott, meaning "The one who is invoked". Visigoths in Spain were also called and called themselves "Jetas", and as one of the name of the old Hittite culture was "Khetta", it points to some cultural bonds between the Visigoths and the Hittites, however, genetic data tell that Hittites were not an homogeneous group, but there can be suspects that the Visigoths that arrived to Iberia actually were quite close in appearance one to another. The period of the fading of Roman authority in Iberia was linked to anarchistic conditions, people unable to maintain the usual agriculture activities because of the lack of safety of the region were no effective protective authority existed ended starving, and there are written records of beasts feeding on dead and attacking those alive, this were the times of Swabians, Alans and Vandals, these last still remembered today in places such as Germany as a synonym of destructive and brutal behavior. The Visigoths' arrival started to establish a period of effective rule of law, and things improved fast. The religion of Visigoths before bishop Ulfilas taught them the Arian Christianity was a solar cult, similar to the old one in Greece that evolved into the Apollion cult, and as Ulfilas taught them their former Gothic deities were all devils, the names of the former Visigoth gods arrived to us as names of malignant beings, such as Alberic, an equivalent of Oberon and of Amalaric; this can be found in recent literary and musical works, but after some time in Iberia, Visigoths decided to switch from Arianism to Catholicism, just with the aim of avoiding a source of conflict with the peoples in Iberia, that all were catholic, as early as when saint Peter was still alive, records exist of a bishop erected in what is today Malaga, Visigoths became actual rules of the Peninsula because the Roman authority that had subdued by force the Iberians had faded, and Visigoths that had joined the Roman army but were allowed to preserve their own authorities and rules inside the Imperial army, found themselves as the sole organized and effective force. Among the peculiarities of the Roman invasion of Iberia, records exist about some villagers burning their homes and precipitating themselves into the fire to avoid being subdued by Romans. The Visigoths arriving to Iberia may have had a connection with the European peoples who came to India, one of the Iberian Gothic queens had the name "Goswintha", meaning "The path of the cows", that is obviously an equivalent to the names used today in India "Govinda" and "Govind"; also the name of the Buddha: "Gautama" has some phonetic similarities to surnames existing today in Iberia and other European places such as "Gaetan" and "Gaytan".-- Jgrosay ( talk) 16:13, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
The article says: "the Kingdom of Asturias, which had been founded by the Visigothic nobleman Pelagius". Can you give a rational explanation of the fact that this "Visigothic" nobleman has a Latin name Pelagius, some similar to "sailorman", from Greek Pelagos = sea. Can you also explain in wich manner is reasonable that one of the northern Hispanic peoples like Asturians, Cantabrians and Basques a day fight againsts Goths and the next one choose one of them as king? Please, actualise your bibliography. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.32.194 ( talk) 21:42, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
i think they are cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.58.253.4 ( talk) 16:30, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
True. The name Pelagius was very common in the Late Romanity and Early Middle Age in the North Western area of Iberia. It seems to be an autochtonous Hispano-Roman personal name. Compare this name with all the known Gothic names, all of them Germanic names. Till, there are nont only the Christian sources that speak about the battle of Covadonga, but also the Moorish sources. They called Pelagius "Belay al Rumí" = Pelagius the Roman. Practically all the modern Spanish scholars affirm that Pelagius was Asturian, it is to say, an Hispano-Roman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.63.56 ( talk) 14:20, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I just split the following paragraph at the sentence beginning with "King Reccared":
"Catholic conversion across Visigothic society reduced much of the friction between their people and the native Spanish population.[86] One chief purpose of this conversion was to unify the realm under the Church, and one of the key complaints of the Church had long been that Jews had too much status, prosperity and influence. Local nobles relied on their Jewish and non-Jewish sectors of the population to enhance the local economy and the noble's independent power. Visigothic political structure had traditionally given extensive powers to local nobles (who even elected their kings), so the king was in many ways merely 'the first amongst equals,' and central authority was weak. The status of the Jews therefore impacted local aristocrats both symbolically and politically. King Reccared convened the Third Council of Toledo to settle religious disputations related to the religious conversion from Arianism to Catholicism. The discriminatory laws passed at this Council seem not to have been universally enforced, however, as indicated by several more Councils of Toledo that repeated these laws and extended their stringency. These entered canon law and became legal precedents in other parts of Europe as well. The culmination of this process occurred under King Sisibut, who decreed a forced Christian conversion upon all Jews in Spain. This mandate apparently achieved only partial success: similar decrees were repeated by later kings as central power was consolidated. These laws either prescribed forcible baptism of the Jews or forbade circumcision, Jewish rites, and the observance of the Sabbath and other festivals. Throughout the seventh century, Jews were flogged, executed, had their property confiscated, were subjected to ruinous taxes, forbidden to trade and, at times, dragged to the baptismal font. Many were obliged to accept Christianity but continued privately to observe the Jewish religion and practices.[89] The decree of 613 set off a century of torment for Spanish Jewry, which was only ended by the Muslim conquest."
However, I'm wondering if the sentence beginning with "[t]he culmination" wouldn't have been better. Could anyone please tell me which (if either) they think is best?-- Thylacine24 ( talk) 04:02, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Goths were from Sweden, Not Germany
I find this article is frequently referred to. For example both Heather and Halsall seem to see it positively.
I found it mentioned by Heather as a quite relevant looking (for us as editors) comment about the difficulty of using Wolfram as a source. See here.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 14:54, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
There is a Genetics section currently but it offers no information. Only links to other articles that also don't have information on Visigoth genetics.
The following 3 sources suggest Visigoths were associated with R1A and R1b-S21. https://indo-european.eu/2019/07/vikings-vikings-vikings-influx-of-eastern-ancestry-in-the-whole-baltic-iron-age/ http://www.stclairresearch.com/content/lineagesS21.html https://books.google.com/books?id=L57TDAAAQBAJ&pg=PT66&lpg=PT66&dq=R1a+visigoth&source=bl&ots=tXvQZFrx9R&sig=ACfU3U2if0KipXtCuN-k9CWxkaIhjo8zvg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjXwOaXis3qAhVtHjQIHZmPDB0Q6AEwCnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=R1a%20visigoth&f=false
Note that does not mean these haplogroups were only associated with visigoths; but the explanation for their occurrence in Iberia is best explained by migrations during the fall of the Roman empire of Germanic peoples.
The following maps are for the distribution of general Germanic Y DNA Haplogroup I1, and the two more specifically associated with Visigoths, R1b-S21, and R1A.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml
(Especially for the last one you will need to scroll down to find the correct map that shows the distribution of R1b-S-21. I did not want to link these outside of the original sources they appear in)
Note how R1A, usually an east European Slavic marker, was likely present in East Germanic groups like the Goths who lived for some time in modern Ukraine. R1A was also spread by Vikings, note of the R1A corresponds to many of the Roman era invasions by East Germans and later Viking peoples or their Norman descendants. R1A peaks in Iberia around 8.5% in some parts of Cantabria. Also note the the concentration of R1A in the area of SE France that was settled by the Burgundians, another East Germanic group.
-- Avarserda ( talk) 15:56, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
The page: Muslim Conquest of the Iberian Peninsula should be added to the ‘related articles’ section. As I am a new editor I want to vet this plan first. Thanks, Tmarac ( talk) 18:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
New suggestion, what is the feedback?
There should be a link to the page "Barbarian kingdoms" because it provides a clearer overview. The sentence "The Visigoths (/ˈvɪzɪɡɒθs/; Latin: Visigothi, Wisigothi, Vesi, Visi, Wesi, Wisi) were a Germanic people united under the rule of a king and living within the Roman Empire during late antiquity." could be improved by including "Barbarian kingdoms" in the text. The highlighted "Germanic" people takes a reader only to that page, so the reader misses the more holistic review of who the 'barbarians' were.
Many historians have stopped using the term "Germanic".Please see the quote from Jamie Wood:
"In the past, the terms ‘German’ or ‘Germanic’ might have been adopted to describe the groups of the migration period, but because the idea of common German political identity is largely a construct of the early modern and modern periods these terms are less useful for our purposes than the term ‘barbarian' (footnote 15). At least ‘barbarian’ was a term that was used at the time of the migrations." (footnote 16) Wood, Jamie. The Politics of Identity in Visigothic Spain : Religion and Power in the Histories of Isidore of Seville, BRILL, 2012.
Thanks, Terry Tmarac ( talk) 13:41, 20 February 2024 (UTC)