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I could use help with demographics. I found a good careful study and just added that information. However in another source, I was not able to confirm it, and it was indirect (not on the website of the organization whic found the statistic) so I did not add from this second source. The second source is: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3289/is_4_175/ai_n16128605/pg_2/ which asserts, "According to the Vegetarian Resource Group, more than 10% of females under 25 now claim to occasionally practice vegan eating." If true this would be remarkable, since the general population in the US has been reported to be between 0.2% to 0.5% in more recent (the 2008 study I just added) and thus 10%, even if restricted to under-25 females doing so "occasionally" would be very significant: between 20 to 50 times the general population rate. Unforutnately I see no contact information for the author ( J. Hugh McEvoy) nor could I find a page right on the vegetarian resource group's page to confirm this statistic. If you can find it, that would be great (if you can, go ahead and add it to the demographics section, I don't need to be the one doing it :-) -- Harel ( talk) 01:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
"Although some vegans attempt to avoid all these ingredients, Vegan Outreach argues that "it can be prohibitively expensive and time-consuming to shun every minor or hidden animal-derived ingredient," and therefore that doing what is "best for preventing suffering" is more important than identifying and excluding every animal ingredient.[28][29]"
This is badly worded, first the 'some' vegans is a weasel word, suggesting a minority. Secondly the 'Vegan Outreach argues that' part seems to suggest that the opinion of the aforementioned vegans is wrong. Vegan Outreach are not 'arguing', it is their opinion. Other vegan organisations support the avoidance of such products yet this is not mentioned. Muleattack ( talk) 01:56, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
"Poorly planned vegan diets can be low in levels of calcium, iodine, vitamin B12, iron and vitamin D."
Obviously poorly planned vegan diets (and any other diet for that matter) can be low in anything and everything so why are these mentioned in particular? The sentence has no citation.
Muleattack ( talk) 14:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
This dose not have anything to do with the cow picture your talking about but another cow picture on the page. Im not an expert but Im just throwing this out there as some food for thought. The caption reads something to the effect of how cows produce large amount of green house gases, there for supporting the idea that a reason to not eat meat is to be more environmentally friendly. Im going to assume the green house gases being refered to are methane. How ever this leads to a some what of a conundrum, every vegetarian and vegan I have met eats rice. Rice is grown in swamps and because it is the staple diet of the most populous countries on earth. Is on of the highest methane and green house gas producing factors on the planet. So I don't really think its fare to condemn cow eating because it produces methane unless you also say the same for rice. 131.230.146.135 ( talk) 01:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I recommend that this section of the article be removed, as it has nothing to do with the actual vegan diet, nor does it have to do with vegan lifestyle. I would even go so far as to contend that this section poisons the neutrality of this article, in so far as it introduces a link between eating disorders and vegetarianism wherein the vegan diet and lifestyle is not the cause of said eating disorder. It certainly does not belong under the heading "health concerns," since the concern is eating disorders and not the vegan diet and lifestyle itself. If this information belongs in any article, it should go in eating disorders, not veganism. Nic01445 ( talk) 02:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I did read the section, and I stand by my previous claims. Cited or not, eating disorders are in no way relevant to nutritional concerns of the vegan diet. I'm not claiming that there is no link, I'm claiming that the link is irrelevant to the article, in the sense that it does not describe veganism, but rather it describes eating disorders. Nic01445 ( talk) 20:09, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph that Veganmer added on the possibility of B12 from bacteria in the soil on unwashed vegetables conflicts with a claim made in the next paragraph that "organic produce, soil on unwashed vegetables" cannot be relied on for B12. How should we deal with this inconsistency? -- N-k ( talk) 13:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
So much for Kellen adhering to policies about politeness while avoiding personal attacks....... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.107.38 ( talk) 03:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
If Kellen considers him/herself the barometer of what is/is not relevant to veganism, gosh, I will surely notify all the vegans of the world. I don't think they got that memo. Kellen's opinion may be "bullshit" (that's not a personal attack, in your words), but he/she is entitled to it. Actually, anyone who obsesses over something like a wiki page like Kellen does has misplaced priorities. That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veganmer ( talk • contribs) 00:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
The sentence "Abortion is a topic vegans avoid but are avidly criticized for because some fetuses experience pain, but they aren't used for food" is floating around on its own without any citation. Because I am a vegan I am totally opposed to abortion, so that disproves the sweeping universal statement immediately. It's reasonable to have a section on abortion but this isn't a good start. Salopian ( talk) 00:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I removed that sentence less than an hour ago. I apologize for not checking here first; I'm not completely accustomed to Wikipedia etiquette, although I'm learning. I, too, thought that the statement was inaccurate due to the sweeping claim it made. Also, the grammar was confusing and, like you mentioned, it was not supported with any further argument or citation. Advocateofveganism ( talk) 04:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Not exist vegan diet for health reasons. Exist the 100% vegetarian diet for health reasons. Veganism is not a diet. Veganism is a philosophy and a lifestyle based on respect for sentient animals that includes a 100% vegetarian diet. Xxxzenicxxx ( talk) 02:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Based on what you say above, it would be wrong for someone who follows a vegan diet, yet wears fur, to call himself a veganist (or a follower of veganism). However, that person can certainly refer to himself as a vegan, meaning a dietary vegan. While it is important to state and reference the expert definition, it is silly to deny the reality of how people self-identify; just as I said about semi-vegetarian - which I'm sure you'll agree is inconsistent, yet part of the vegetarianism article. If a Christian kills someone, however justified, he has violated a basic tenet of that religion, so is he no longer Christian? I'll agree with you that veganism is a philosophy (or an ideology) but vegan also describes anyone who follows a diet that fits within the definition of veganism. This could be explained within the article rather than dismissed as inconsistent which makes the article less inclusive. Bob98133 ( talk) 13:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
What do vegans have against using animal products like milk and eggs? You don't have to kill a cow or chicken for those things. Milk is there as natural food/drink. Emperor001 ( talk) 23:20, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Throughout the article, there seems to be a recurrent assumption that animals experiencing pain is the basis for veganism. This may be the case for many vegans, but the problem is that there is then a kind of scornful tone to comments about how honey can be non-vegan or vegans can be in favour of abortion. All of these issues depend upon why/whether someone is a vegan in the first place. (Using insect products is a consistent position that can be argued validly, but that doesn't amount to it being a type of veganism.) Salopian ( talk) 00:53, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Hey, RTG, I think you're getting a little free and loose with definitions and what content should be in this article. I am unaware or any restriction against veganism in Judaism. I do not think that food and diet is the primary feature of veganism, although that point is confusing. The Society for Krishna Consciousness (Hare Krishnas - which is probably a derogatory term) are not vegan. No problem discussing what should or shouldn't be in the article, but let's at least start with things that can be referenced. Bob98133 ( talk) 12:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
RTG - since you are unwilling or unable to concisely state what you think is missing or should be changed in this article, I am not longer participating in this discussion. Bob98133 ( talk) 15:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
By the way, my last comment wasn't meant to discourage you. If you can find any reliable, clear sources about pre-Watson vegans, that information would be worth adding. -- N-k ( talk) 15:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
The section I have made is very reasonable. You have already put a warning on it saying you think it's a "synthesis". So whatever bad you think might come of it is protected against. Why don't you let it stay there and get people's reactions to it, see if THEY think it's a synthesis?
Wikipedia's guidelines advise against casually reverting other people's edits.
I took out the Steven Zeisel quote, that's unnecessary if there is the list of the choline contents and calories of foods. I think it is a very good section and it should be left in peace for a while. Puffysphere ( talk)
User Uncle Dick or Puffysphere or whoever you are - Please discuss, as asked, why you believe the inclusion of recent material about choline and vegan diets is not WP:OR and WP:UNDUE in reference to your recent edits. Bob98133 ( talk) 15:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
All the calculations in of the choline content of foods are from reputable sources, and I gave solid references for the data they use.
The reason I included those lists of choline content is that I wanted to give vegans a good perspective of how much choline their diet is likely to include.
I've seen many websites where plant foods are listed as good choline sources, when they aren't. For example, many websites list nuts or peanuts as good choline sources. They aren't, for the reason I gave, that nuts and peanuts don't have enough choline for the calories. I'm trying to correct a misconception people might have from websites online.
Also, that choline is an essential nutrient is not a minority viewpoint! The Adequate Intake was set by the Institute of Medicine. There's no RDA yet defined for choline, but I've read that the Institute of Medicine recommends that USDA set an RDA for choline the next time it reviews the RDA's.
I undid the deletion of the material I included, since I think it's helpful and objective.
Puffysphere (
talk) 17:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
ps If you think it's a minority view, can anyone show me published scientific research contradicting my statements? I'm trying to be objective, but I haven't seen any such research. Puffysphere ( talk) 17:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
No, I'm not saying that nuts have too much fat for the choline. What I said is that you would have to consume a huge amount of calories of nuts to get a significant amount of choline from them. That is a simple calculation from the published data.
Why do you think that the article shouldn't correct common misconceptions - or give people an impression of how much choline is available from different styles of vegan diets? I think both of those things are legitimate things to do.
Yes, the article is long already. I'd be willing to create a separate article if people think that is appropriate. Maybe it would be a good idea to move the entire section on "nutritional concerns about vegan diets" to a separate article.
Choline is a rather obscure nutrient. It was only declared an essential nutrient in 1998. Vegans are just as unaware of it as other people, and I think it's important to include a good deal of info about it, because vegans are especially at risk for choline deficiency.
Puffysphere (
talk) 18:57, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
The reason for the common misconception about nuts being a good plant source of choline, is that there's an easily accessible database showing the amount of choline per 100 grams of a food, ranked by the amount. Nuts are high on that list. But 100 grams of nuts is a heck of a lot of nuts! It would be useful if there were a database showing amount of choline for a standard serving of a food, but there isn't any that I know of.
Puffysphere (
talk) 19:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
There are three basic reasons that people adopt a vegan diet, that I know of: health, concern for animals and concern for the environment. Perhaps those should be three separate articles. The health article could include both the nutritional advantages and the risks of deficiency in a vegan diet. That would give it a more balanced feel than an article just about deficiency risks
Puffysphere (
talk) 23:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Bob - It isn't original research, it is referenced a LOT. I cited the Dietary Reference Intakes, the Linus Pauling Institute, and several published scientific papers.
One can do basic arithmetical calculations in Wikipedia. I can put the exact calculations into footnotes if you like, and anyone can check them.
The choline to calories ratio is also not a concept that's new with me. Dr. Steven Zeisel used it in one of his papers. That's basically what I used in this section.
I suggested splitting the article on veganism into several sections, because people brought up "the article is too long already" as a reason to delete information I wrote. Yes, it's long and maybe it would work better, split up.
I edited my choline section, to try to avoid giving the impression that I'm "telling vegans what to eat"; and to give more information on what the Adequate Intake means.
One caveat to this whole choline thing is that many people will be fine even though they aren't getting the Adequate Intake.
But the problem with getting less than the AI is that there isn't yet a test available to doctors to tell you if your body is choline deficient. So getting less than the AI is taking a risk.
Please stick with discussion and don't just delete what I wrote. It's important information, and it's very verifiable. I'm sticking strictly to the facts, and presenting a balanced view. I am responsive to people's feedback, I changed my section because of it.
Puffysphere (
talk) 15:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Bob, You haven't been answering the things I've said. It's OK to make "routine calculations", see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AOR#Routine_calculations
They are simple arithmetic. Anyone with a calculator can check them.
I have been presenting a neutral viewpoint. As I said earlier, if anyone can show me published research that contradicts what I said, do. If you can convince me that many scientists who know about choline disagree with what I said, do.
But I think when the
Institute of Medicine established an Adequate Intake for choline, they were looking at the research on it. They're a good objective source!
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Puffysphere (
talk •
contribs) 16:58, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I included that information on the calories of plant foods you have to eat to get the AI of choline, because there's a common misconception that "oh, leafy green vegetables, soy, beans have a lot of choline - so a vegan doesn't have to worry about it".
I went on a vegan forum a few months ago, talking about choline, and that was the sort of thing people said. It's important to be quantitative about it, to avoid that kind of rationalization. And I'm using this information to illustrate both sides of the issue: yes, you can get enough choline in a vegan diet, without taking supplements. But, it is a serious challenge since so many plant foods are low in choline. I calculated the choline content in some sample vegan diet plans - Mcdougall plan, with no empty calories - and it came out far below the Adequate Intake.
I'm not bashing veganism. I'm almost entirely vegan myself.
What I wrote is extensively referenced, and it shouldn't be deleted.
Puffysphere (
talk) 16:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
A lifestyle cannot seek anything. See lead section. Is that even a copyvio? ~ R. T. G 22:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The USDA uses amount of choline per 100 grams of food. [5]. They do this to avoid confusion and nonsensical comparisons, such as I've removed. Can the editor who placed this please provide a reference in which food quantities which provide a particular amount of choline are listed? I say we go with the USDA figures since they are a normal, widely accepted method of reporting choline content of foods. Bob98133 ( talk) 19:52, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Vegans may be at risk of choline deficiency and may benefit from choline supplements. [2] Choline has many functions in the body, and choline deficiency may cause a number of health concerns. [3] The Institute of Medicine has set the Adequate Intake of choline at 425 mg (milligrams) per day for women and 550 mg/day for men [4] [5], but the Estimated Average Requirement for choline has not yet been evaluated and dietary intake requirements of choline are not yet fully understood. [6] [7]
This reference [6] is used to support the need for choline. However, the source states "Choline or betaine supplementation in humans reduces concentration of total homocysteine (tHcy). It appears that this reference to betaine has been intentionally left out of the article to support the position that choline is essential for reducing homocysteines. It appears from a quick reading of the reference that the interaction of these two chemicals is more important than MDR of choline. Either this has to be corrected or removed. Bob98133 ( talk) 20:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
The reference used to support this [7] states that "Several nutritional factors have been implicated in the occurrence of neural tube defects (NTDs). Foremost among those factors has been the role of periconceptional intake of folic acid." Changing this to imply that choline alone may protect against this is misleading. The closest the ref says is that choline may be involved or may be a factor. This material should be removed or changed to reflect the actual content of the source. Bob98133 ( talk) 20:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Wikilinking to Adequate intake, then supplying a reference defining it is redundant and unnecessarily bloats the article. I suggest that this sentence and its reference be removed. Bob98133 ( talk) 20:12, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I have found editor Puffysphere's reversions of material that go contrary to the concensus of other editors to be obstructive to improving this article since he does not seem to stay on track and reverts material without concensus. In an effort to address problems with his edits, I have broken them down into my specific objections (aside from WP:OR and WP:UNDUE, both of which I still believe to be true. Perhaps Puffy can stay on one topic at a time and discuss each of these objections separately. Bob98133 ( talk) 20:18, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
You should give a basis for the allegations of OR and UNDUE. I'm not being biased. If you think I am, come up with research on Medline http://pubmed.com that disagrees with what I've said. You've been drastically editing what I wrote without consensus. That could be considered disruptive.
Puffysphere ( talk) 20:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
I changed the Choline section. It can be viewed at
user:Puffysphere.
Puffysphere (
talk) 22:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm a graduate student of Gary Varner's here at TAMU. He's not a vegan, but is a pesco-vegetarian. I've corrected it to reflect that fact. Everyone may now go about their business. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.21.177 ( talk) 02:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
It looks like the person who placed the mental health benefits section under nutritional concerns made a mistake. I'm not quite sure how to correct that.--Bloody Rose 02:59, 11 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BloodyRose ( talk • contribs)
Should the first paragraph of the article aknowledge that people may exlcude animal products from their diet without aligning themselves to a particular philosophy? 33gsd ( talk) 13:14, 26 August 2010 (UTC)33gsd
Why, if criticism of veganism must be locked away in its own section, is that section primarily given over (75%?) to criticism of those criticisms? That is, if the one can be mixed with the other, why can't the other be mixed with the one?
...what's good for the goose, etc...
Last time I checked, the actual guideline was to include criticisms throughout rather than devoting an entire section to them in order to afford those criticisms greater context and to contribute to an overall neutral point of view. Setting one against the other naturally encourages editors to take sides and necessarily disrupts the flow of ideas as readers are forced to transition through concepts repeatedly in order to understand both sides of any controversy.
J.M. Archer ( talk) 19:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Since there was no reply to my last post, I've moved the paragraphs here in order to discuss them:
Steven Davis, a professor of animal science at Oregon State University, argues that following Tom Regan's "least harm principle" may not necessarily require the adoption of a vegan diet because there are non-vegetarian diets which "may kill fewer animals" than are killed in the intensive crop production necessary to support vegetarian diets. In particular, Davis calculates that a diet partially based on large grass-fed ruminants like cows, would kill fewer animals than a vegan diet. [8]
Davis's analysis has itself been criticized, such as by Gaverick Matheny, a Ph.D. candidate in agricultural economics at the University of Maryland, College Park, and by Andy Lamey, a Ph.D. student at the University of Western Australia. Matheny argues that Davis miscalculates the number of animal deaths based on land area rather than per consumer, and incorrectly equates "the harm done to animals … to the number of animals killed." Matheny argues that per-consumer, a vegan diet would kill fewer wild animals than a diet adhering to Davis's model, and that vegetarianism "involves better treatment of animals, and likely allows a greater number of animals with lives worth living to exist." [9]
Lamey characterizes Davis's argument as "thought-provoking", but asserts that Davis's calculation of harvesting-related deaths is flawed because it is based upon two studies; one includes deaths from predation, which is "morally unobjectionable" for Regan, and the other examines production of a nonstandard crop, which Lamey argues has "little relevance" to the deaths associated with typical crop production. Lamey also argues, like Matheny, that accidental deaths are ethically distinct from intentional ones, and that if Davis includes accidental animal deaths in the moral cost of veganism he must also evaluate the increased human deaths associated with his proposed diet, which Lamey argues leaves "Davis, rather than Regan, with the less plausible argument." [10]
References
- ^ The Vegetarian Way: Total Health for You and Your Family (1996), Virginia Messina, MPH, RD, & Mark Messina, PhD p. 102
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
vegancholine
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ Cite error: The named reference
linuspauling
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ "Dietary Reference Intakes for ... Choline". Institute of Medicine.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
USDA-DRI-Choline
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ "Dietary Reference Intakes: Vitamins". Institute of Medicine. 2001.
- ^ "USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference". USDA. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
- ^ Davis, Steven L. (2003). "The Least Harm Principle May Require that Humans Consume a Diet Containing Large Herbivores, Not a Vegan Diet". Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics. 16 (4): 387–394.
the LHP may actually be better served using food production systems that include both plant-based agriculture and a forage-ruminant-based agriculture as compared to a strict plant-based (vegan) system.{{ cite journal}}
:|access-date=
requires|url=
( help)- ^ Gaverick Matheny (2003). "Least harm: a defense of vegetarianism from Steven Davis's omnivorous proposal". Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics. 16 (5): 505–511. doi: 10.1023/A:1026354906892.
While eating animals who are grazed rather than intensively confined would vastly improve the welfare of farmed animals given their current mistreatment, Davis does not succeed in showing this is preferable to vegetarianism. First, Davis makes a mathematical error in using total rather than per capita estimates of animals killed; second, he focuses on the number of animals killed in ruminant and crop production systems and ignores important considerations about the welfare of animals under both systems; and third, he does not consider the number of animals who are prevented from existing under the two systems. After correcting for these errors, Davis's argument makes a strong case for, rather than against, adopting a vegetarian diet.- ^ Lamey, Andy (2007). "Food Fight! Davis versus Regan on the Ethics of Eating Beef". Journal of Social Philosophy. 38 (2): 331–348. doi: 10.1111/j.1467-9833.2007.00382.x. Retrieved 2009-02-22.
To start with, the scientific studies on which Davis relies actually document two different forms of harm to field animals: there are those directly killed by harvesting equipment and those that become the prey of other animals. ... Davis also overlooks philosophically significant forms of harm to human beings that are present in beef production but not vegetable harvesting. Finally, he bases his argument on the implausible assumption that there is no difference between deliberate and accidental killing—either of an animal or a person.
Now, these three paragraphs are sourced and attributed, so they fulfill WP:A. But are they in line with WP:DUE? Obviously this article should include sourced criticism of Veganism, but in doing so it should stick to the most prominent and prevalent arguments brought forth. The above seems like a lengthy and detailed discussion of what seems to be a minor point. Any thoughts? Gabbe ( talk) 07:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Extended content
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Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Comments of Sikh Scholars," at The Sikhism Home Page Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi ISBN 9788173040580 Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments—on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating—as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste. Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar ISBN :8172050607 The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected. A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi ISBN 9788170231394 However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off. |
I restored some material on Steven Davis's critique of veganism due to animals being killed in the cultivation of vegan food. Davis's position is important, as evidence in the fact that his argument has been covered in cover stories in Time magazine and The New York Times Magazine. I've mentioned this fact to give a better sense of the importance of the debate Davis set off. Porphyry Jones ( talk) 15:17, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Keep in mind that Davis' argument is especially stupid seeing as how 60-70% of the corn, oats, and some other grains grown in the US are fed to livestock, not humans. So even if harvesting that grain kills animals, it is then fed to livestock, which, as you might imagine, leads to even more deaths. But this is only relevant if you entertain his grasping-at-straws argument. Also keep in mind that he is a professor of animal science... 128.192.20.135 ( talk) 13:27, 1 July 2010 (UTC)askantik
I would like to revert, to leave my quote in. (a) The China study is not mentioned below, but only Colin Campbell, with a reference to the China Study. So you'd have to be pretty determined and well informed to get at this clear, international scientific evidence off site. (b) I put it in the introduction, since the previous post had inserted 'may' have health benefits whereas I think a more positive, still neutral statement, is more informative for readers.
Comments welcome, otherwise I shall revert.
TonyClarke ( talk) 20:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
I am returning the "may." There is at present no consensus that the vegan diet is healthier than other diets, and the more cautious phrasing accurately reflects this uncertainty. The more recent of the two references given for the passage itself uses the qualifier "may." The China Study is only one of many studies that address this topic. As Wikipedia's own entry on the China Study shows, its conclusions are disputed by many. Citing only this one study gives it more weight than it merits.
The best solution would be to add a new section that discussed the evidence for and against a vegan diet providing protection from various diseases. Short of this, the statement that a vegan diet may provide such protection is an accurate and unbiased summary of current thinking. Struvite ( talk) 02:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
TonyClarke ( talk) 20:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
RyokoMocha ( talk) 07:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
here This was great. Pamela Anderson, for instance, turning "over a new leaf" is infinitely more representative of the "Philosophical foundations" of veganism than slaughtering cattle is. I've never heard of vegans who slaughtered cattle and in fact I would be comfortable with the idea that the cattle slaughter picture here was not associated with veganism in any way besides here on this Wikipedia page. Isnt it one of the more frequently used images on slaughter-related articles? I have seen it once or twice on articles that are nothing vegan whatsoever. A long time ago images of a slaughterhouse finally convinced me that something was a neccesity rather than an ideal but you can be sure that the almost cute picture here does not represent that even remotely save for the fact that I am led to believe it was a slaughterhouse. Bring back Pammie Anderson. Bar the slaughter house. There is no place for veganism in a slaughter house and no place for a slaughter house in veganism. ~ R. T. G 21:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed:
Because the phrasing seemed a bit suspect. I unfortunately can't access the full text of the article (Nirvana2013, maybe you can) in order to get a full view of its contents, but from the pubmed description, it seemed likely that Barnard personally showed nothing (that is, did no research) but instead published a synthesis of existing research. That's okay, it's what PCRM does, but the line here seems like a mischaracterization. Can someone cite the actual text of this article in order to confirm (or not) this? An additional issue is that there is already a section devoted to diabetes, and it seems likely that this addition would be redundant to that one. Kellen T 21:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
In the section titled Similar diets and lifestyles, I propose to delete the following sentence:
«Some small Sikh sects have lacto-vegetarian lifestyles.»
After all, this article is about veganism, not lacto-vegetarianism. Any objections? TheLastNinja ( talk) 18:58, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Much of the content of this article relies on the Vegan Society website and other sources that advocate for a vegan diet, and thus do not qualify as unbiased. For example, the claim that vitamin B12 deficiency is rare in vegans is supported solely by a reference to "What every vegan should know about vitamin B12," an article posted on the Vegan Society website. This claim is contradicted by several studies that have found widespread B12 deficiency in vegans, and even earlier in the article, where the higher rate of death from ischemic heart disease in fish eaters than in vegans is attributed to B12 deficiency in vegans. I probably will remove some the claims based solely on biased sources, but I want to give a heads up first to give people a chance to back them up with credible references. Struvite ( talk) 19:00, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
As choline is abundant in plant sources and as I've not once in my research encountered any other source that claims choline deficiency to be a problem for vegans, I suggest the removal of this section. In its place we should include a section on omega-3 deficiency, which is a problem for vegans who don't eat a balanced diet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.75.30 ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
It might be helpful to reorganize this article, too, so that we can highlight which nutrients beginner vegans need to pay attention to and ensure getting enough of VS. which nutrient deficiencies are of particular concern for vegans who don't eat balanced diets. Right now, these two things seem to be blended together, which gives the misleading impression that there exist nutritional concerns about planned vegan diets. I don't currently have time to reorganize the article better, but perhaps others do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.75.30 ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest the removal of references to the child deaths at the hands of parents who are vegan, which is overly-weighty for the length of the entry. Untold numbers of children die annually in the care of omnivorous parents from diabetes and other diseases, and these deaths are not mentioned, let alone listed and detailed in the article on human omnivorism. Nor should they be-they are not the result of omnivorism, but of parental neglect. Such is the case with veganism.
Different standards of relevance shouldn't be applied to veganism's entry simply because it's less popular. -- 64.130.148.99 ( talk) 06:10, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Please explain what is meant by "I understand where you're coming from"? Where exactly do I come from and why does it matter. Do I have to specifically come from somewhere? And where exactly do you come from? Its the genetic fallacy (logical fallacy). I find this conduct offensive, intimidating and hurting. WP:PERSONAL
Similarly, if ALL human lives are considered equal, it "can lead to absurdities such as allowing thieves to steal, or murderers to run loose on one's premises."
This is not a valid criticism. And I do not think that Wikipedia is a place to debate veganism. If this is debated in the actual article, then rebuttals should also be allowed. Otherwise, the readers will only get one side of the story and a biased view. This criticism itself is not an WP:NPOV. I propose the criticism to be either removed, or a fair ideological rebuttal allowed. Since the criticism is not of scientific (but ideological nature), no scientific sources can be sited and the rebuttal itself can only be of ideological character. Manujchandra ( talk) 09:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The criticism section needs to be cleaned. Known logical fallacies needs to be either addressed or the fallacy removed. The nutrition section is criticizing the vegan diet with the following line of reasoning: " IF a vegan diet is not properly planned...". Its a big hypothetical IF with no basis in modern scientific literature, and is applicable to an animal based diets too. For eg, both vegans and non-vegans will suffer the same consequences of vitamin B-12 deficiency. Yvonne Bishop-Weston a leading UK Nutritionist says, "In UK clinic I rarely find vegetarians with significant B12 and Iron deficiencies, they tend to be more aware of failings in our modern diets. More often than not meat eaters are lulled into a false sense of security that the Standard American Diet (SAD diet) of Meat, cheese and processed carbohydrates stripped of nutrients and fibre provides them with all the vitamins and minerals that they need". Manuj Chandra ( talk) 08:16, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
I made some changes in a sandboxed version of the article, and request that you go over it. See edit summaries for reasons. You're welcome to edit that page. I hope we can gain a consensus for a better version of the article it and then insert it. BE——Critical__ Talk 01:33, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The statement that there are many vegans in India is incorrect. Veganism in India is virtually unknown. http://business.in.com/article/recliner/being-vegan-in-india/4482/1
India are the largest consumers of animal milk in the world. The vegetarians in India follow a lacto vegetarian diet, which includes lots of dairy products. The word "vegan" is not common in India. A 'pure vegetarian' in India, means a person who consumes milk and milk products, but not meat and eggs. Kelly2357 ( talk) 22:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
A quick search turns up a few recent articles that suggest that this is likely an interesting topic to revisit at some point in the future - e.g., a a November 28, 2010 article states that "a growing number of middle-aged people in the city insist that sticking to a vegan diet is neither a fashion statement,nor a fad." "The Rise of the Vegans". The Times of India. It also notes that "Their clan (vegans) is growing in the city and so are the number of restaurants and shops that cater to their needs." (I had to click and hit escape and backspace carefully to be able to read the article without annoying sign-in requests, YMMV.) Unfortunately, the article has no quantitative numbers about the popularity of veganism in india. In support of the data from the business.in.com article above, the Times article also notes that "many vegans lament that sourcing organic food and eating out on a daily basis continues to be a challenge". Another recent (September 2010) article suggests a similar trend of "small but growing": http://www.sify.com/news/move-over-milk-silk-leather-the-indian-vegan-s-here-news-national-kjtlucdbief.html DavidAndersen ( talk) 03:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
The article says "Vegans endeavor to never consume or use any animal products of any type." But then goes on to say that insects are sometimes okay. Animals include insects, indeed any " multicellular, eukaryotic organism". The article needs to either exclude from the definition of veganism people who so much as eat bugs, or else stop defining veganism so strictly. It can't be both ways. It is obvious that the sources must mean "higher" forms of animal when they speak of "animal." But the article doesn't make that distinction clear. BE——Critical__ Talk 21:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
I noticed that the meta analysis concerning vegan mortality rates was removed by becritial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Veganism&action=historysubmit&diff=406563856&oldid=406389816
There may have been some other stuff missing but I was interested in this line but had to review history to get it:
A 1999 meta-study of five studies comparing vegetarian and non-vegetarian mortality rates in western countries found the mortality rate due to ischemic heart disease 26% lower among vegans compared to regular meat eaters, but 34% lower among ovolactovegetarians and among those who ate fish but no other meat — Preceding unsigned comment added by TimMony ( talk • contribs) 22:10, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
The article currently states that veganism is the most popular in Britain, but later says that it's even more popular in Sweden (0.25% versus at least 0.27%). What's the explanation?-- Bloody Rose ( talk) 02:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
From the article: "The population of Britain has the largest proportion of vegans, where 0.25% of the population self-identifies as vegan. In other countries the proportion ranges from 0.20% in the United States to between 0.27% and 1.6% in Sweden."
Both of these can't be right. If Sweden is 0.27% to 1.6%, then Sweden has the largest proportion of vegans. Bigpeteb ( talk) 15:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
In case anyone wants to check the cited reference for the Swedish figures, here's a translated excerpt from the book;
According to the Swedish Vegetarian Society, there are about 250 000 vegetarians in Sweden. Vegan Society in Sweden estimated that about 10 percent, thus 25 000, of them are vegans. Swedish Vegetarian Society relies primarily on two studies in his estimate of the number of vegetarians in Sweden. A study of Eureka Research, on behalf of Health Food Council, which, in June 1993 in which it appeared that 3 percent of those surveyed, about 225 000 people, said they eat vegetarian more or less regularly. The second source is a report published in Dagens Nyheter 96-04-01 where Research Group Social and Information Studies notes that 5 percent of Sweden's population said they were vegetarians. Some studies in the late 1990's, confirmed the figure of 250 000 vegetarians, and in the number of vegans has recent studies sometimes pointed to significantly higher numbers than the previous that estimate of 25 000. A study conducted by the telemarketing team on behalf of The union animal rights (former Nordic Society Against unfortunate Animal testing) showed that 1.6 percent of those polled were vegans and 3 percent are vegetarians. (15) The study had a large shortfall and is therefore subject to uncertainties. If this result is transmitted to the entire Sweden's population, it would mean that there are approximately 136 000 vegans and vegetarians around 255 000 in Sweden, measured at 8.5 million inhabitants. Another study from 1996 showed that 1 percent of the respondents were vegans. (16)
Translated Vegetarian Society website - http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.vegetarian.se/&ei=dTY4TbrCEcmDhQeP9vGKCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSvenska%2BVegetariska%2BF%25C3%25B6reningen%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26hs%3DRZa%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divns
Translated Vegan Society website - http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.vegan.se/&ei=4TY4TY_nKdCGhQeDnuiSCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVeganf%25C3%25B6reningen%2Bi%2BSverige%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26hs%3DBba%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divns
Muleattack ( talk) 13:25, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm trying a change to remove a statement about "the highest proportion" entirely and to just list the numbers - this seems more correct anyway, because, first of all, it's hard to directly compare all of the numbers (different years, different methods), and second, we don't know the numbers for every country in the world anyway. DavidAndersen ( talk) 14:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
There shouldn't be any statement about the "highest proportion" since there's not enough research anywhere in the world to make such a conclusion. Anything other that simply stating the numbers is wishful thinking. Kellen T 21:23, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Hate to bring this up, but the nutrition is horridly one sided, infants for example are not better off on vegan diets, or even vegetarian ones for that matter. Additionally, vegan diets are chronically low in absorbed iron; that is, the iron that is actually absorbed by the body. Plant source iron is not nearly as well absorbed as animal source iron, owing to factors of biochemical similarity (a human has much more in common with a cow than with a soya plant), and bioavalibility. In addition plant proteins are often upwards of 30 percent less bioavailable than animal ones (will post refs on request, I'd have to hunt them down), though egg whites are the best source of protein (which is why ovo vegetarians are often able to achieve adequate levels of protien intake) Furthermore, there are few reputable, uncontested studies that show that animal protien (in moderation, especially with red meat) is in any way harmful, again, with the notable exception of red meat (which is something I personally don't eat). Ronk01 talk 00:20, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Ron - I'd like to add some citation needed tags to your comment above to find a path to being able to present the issue more clearly - for studies about chronically low iron, etc. The article seems to be to be making the point that a "properly planned" vegan diet (emphasis on properly planned) can meet nutritional demands. Many of the cited articles make the point that this is the case despite reduced bioavailability from non-heme iron (eat more) and proteins (eat more). Perhaps what the article needs is more clarification on what it means for a vegan diet to be proper? I think this might make a great addition to the nutritional concerns section. But re the one-sidedness, right now the article has citations to several organizations that say that a vegan diet is acceptable and to the swiss and german organizations that caution against it for children. The "health" subsection says that a vegan diet is "appropriate", not that it is "better". Am I missing the part in the article you're referring to? There's an un-sourced sentence in there that says "Vegetarians avoid the negative health effects of animal protein including red meat" which would definitely benefit from a supporting citation or, additionally, a bit more wording to add nuance to the statement, since that's one of the first places where there's a claim in the article about negative health effects from animal protein. DavidAndersen ( talk) 02:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
To add to this, here are two other parts of the article's heading alone that violate NPOV and display a clearly subjective pro-Vegan prejudice:
Thanks for pointing that out. However, there's even more to this. Let's look a t this sentence a little closer: "Properly planned vegan diets are healthful and have been found to satisfy nutritional needs, and offer protection against obesity, heart and renal diseases, cancer and rheumatoid arthritis, but as with any diet, a poorly planned vegan diet can be deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,[11] iron,[12][13] vitamin D,[14] calcium,[14][15] iodine[16] and omega-3 fatty acids.[17].[18][19]" The part that claims health benefits, is very strong in its wording, using verbs have been found and are in them, as well as the vague and subjective word healthful. However, when it gets to other side of the argument, the claims are worded using the very weak verb can. And this is on top of the defensive and subjective disclaimer but as with any diet that I pointed out above.
I suggest changing the wording of this sentence to make it more factual and objective. Something like the following:
"Studies suggest that properly planned vegan diets might satisfy nutritional needs [provide ref], and offer protection against obesity [provide ref], heart and renal diseases [provide ref], cancer and rheumatoid arthritis [provide ref], while other studies suggest poorly planned vegan diets might be deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,[11] iron,[12][13] vitamin D,[14] calcium,[14][15] iodine[16] and omega-3 fatty acids.[17].[18][19]"
The following changes are made:
24.68.70.4 ( talk) 20:48, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Note that the papers themselves present those views as their positions. These are not facts, and the Wikipedia article should not be stating them as facts, and rather state that they are the ADA's position, just as the references do themselves.
Also, please address the inclusion "but as with any diet" in the sentence. I maintain that it is not providing anything factual is not found in any of the cited articles for that sentence. 24.68.70.4 ( talk) 21:53, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
The article references citation 89 a bunch, in many places to justify very very bold claims such as: "Nonetheless, well-balanced vegetarian and vegan diets can meet all these nutrient requirements and are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence."
However, the text under 89 is: "Cite error: Invalid ref tag; no text was provided for refs named ada; see Help:Cite errors/Cite error references no text"
This article can be used a perfect example of why Wikipedia is not a good source of objective information on controversial topics.
24.68.70.4 ( talk) 19:56, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
This article could use some work, and has deteriorated since I last saw it. It's overlinked, over-referenced, and repetitive. The references are not great, often primary sources. There's no need to add a ref for every point (such as a ref that soya milk is used instead of dairy, and another ref that almond milk is used, etc). The list-defined references make it hard to combine references, which contributes to the abundance of footnotes.
We should try to focus on secondary sources, and academic sources wherever possible. I've started removing some links and unnecessary references, and I've tried to re-arrange a little, but it needs more. Above all, we should try to lose the advocacy tone, whether for and against. I know it's hard with an article like this, but a disinterested description of what it is, plus the benefits and disadvantages, would be much easier to read. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 11:31, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm having trouble confirming what we say about the DRI for choline:
The American Institute of Medicine has set the Dietary Reference Intake (DRI) of choline at 425 mg (milligrams) per day for women and 550 mg/day for men. [2]
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Can anyone see those figures in the sources we cite? SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 12:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
It says in the article "Well-planned vegan diets have been found to offer protection against obesity, heart and renal diseases, cancer, and rheumatoid arthritis." However, in one of the sources it says: "Studies of cancer have not shown clear differences in cancer rates between vegetarians and non-vegetarians." I know that one of the other sources say that there are indeed a difference, but given these contradictions and uncertainties, I think it would be appropriate to exclude cancer from the list mentioned in the article. I would also like to note that the sources commenting about the nutrition, are talking about vegetarians, which means that their conclusions may not apply to veganism. Not directly related, but I think the article should be more neutral, it feels like a one-sided promotional article. Benjaminsf ( talk) 19:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
It looks to me that the prominent people are only prominent in part of the english speaking world(and latin america), although i'm not really that well informed. 190.51.139.145 ( talk) 17:01, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Wikiman, what is your point here? [9] Are you arguing that vegans would oppose the drinking of human milk by human babies too? Or something else? (Also note, we don't do dictionary definitions; we use reliable sources who have written about issues.) SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 21:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
This is a term coined by those who are ex- or as they see it, 'recovered' vegans. Some members of this small, but increasingly large group describe themselves as orthorexic, or having an unhealthy obsession with the purity or righteousness of their diet. Chief among their concerns is that those who insist on dietary purity or ultra restrictuve healthfood diets, develop feelings of disgust or contempt towards those who do not follow such a dietary regime. This is a syndrome similar to those who become members of extreme religious or New Age cults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.189.111 ( talk) 15:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
If this was a legitimate psychological disorder, it would be mentioned in the literature or diagnostic manuals of that field.
If it described a passionate belief opposing strict dietary purity or superiority complexes developed from such, it wouldn't indict veganism specifically.
If it described the state of being non-vegan in contrast to a vegan past, the term "ex-vegan" is more than sufficient.
The term doesn't meet Wiki's standards of legitimacy. -- 74.142.207.144 ( talk) 01:37, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm encountering the problem again that has plagued this article for years, namely editors wanting to impose their personal opinion about what veganism really is. Kelly2357, strongly anti-veganism/animal welfare/rights, wants to remove that Clinton is a dietary vegan because he occasionally eats fish, even though the sources are calling the diet vegan, and the diet he's following, T. Colin Campbell's, is clearly vegan. On the other side, Xxxzenicxxx (I suspect strongly pro-vegan) has been arguing that dietary veganism isn't real veganism, and has been editing the lead to remove it from the second sentence.
Wikipedians can't add their own opinions; we just follow what the sources say. They say that there is such a thing as dietary veganism. The sources call those diets vegan even if people break them from time to time by eating something non-vegan. The situation is not black and white. Some people want it to be, but desire is not reality. All we do here is follow the sources, and use common sense. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 22:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Is the current picture for the vegan info box really the best we can do? It just looks like someone showing off some fancy vegan dish they made. I feel like something akin to vegetarianism (minus the dairy products) would be much better. I seem to recall a similar picture on this page a while back. -- MosheA ( talk) 00:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Hello. This article's introduction, splitting veganism into "ethical" and "dietary" veganism is bunkum. I'm a vegan, and lead a vegan group, but have never heard it being split out in this way. All vegans I know (and I know many) avoid the use of animal products in any way, shape or form, whether that's food, clothing, or anything else. I wouldn't expect anything else.
I suggest you take the definition from the Vegan Society in the UK: "Promoting ways of living free from animal products for the benefit of people, animals and the environment." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.174.214 ( talk) 12:42, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Just a point to note on the ethical versus health motives. Dietary veganism may entail more than just still using animal products in clothing. For example, T. Colin Campbell has followed mostly a vegan diet since the early 1990s and done much work encouraging people onto a plant-based diet. However, he does not identify himself as a vegetarian or vegan as this infers something that he does not espouse, such as anti- vivisection. [10] There are however medical professionals, such as Neal D. Barnard, Michael Greger and Michael Klaper, who do class themselves as vegans and embrace both the health and ethical sides. Nirvana2013 ( talk) 08:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I'm the guy who posted the note above about there being no such thing as "ethical veganism".
There's clearly been a lot of discussion above about this, and the article has been reverted to stating that all vegans split into two camps: ethical and dietary.
This simply does not reflect the reality out here in the real world. I know nobody at all who calls themselves an 'ethical vegan', and I run one of the largest vegan groups in the UK. I'm really sorry if this clashes with your views, and I realise you can provide lots of sources to prove me wrong, but I'm basing my views on reality.
This article is clearly trying to set an agenda. Somebody coming to it to learn about veganism will not learn the truth, but a distorted, constructed version of the truth.
To make this clear:
Veganism: Rejecting all animal products for any purpose (from food to leather seating) Strict vegetarian: Somebody who doesn't eat meat or consume any other animal product, but sees no issue using animal products elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.3.72.70 ( talk) 12:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Why is there a photograph of "Lard from pigs" on a plate in this article? How is it relevant? It seems like it was posted just to be provocative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.238.171.49 ( talk • contribs)
I changed the content of the article to correct the common mistake that veganism is a diet, when it is in fact a philosophy, and that the word "dietary veganism" is nonsensical use of vocabulary, and that "strict vegetarianism" fills that role quite fittingly.
From the wiki on Donald Watson, "founder of the Vegan Society and inventor of the word vegan." [1]:
"From his early conversion to vegetarianism, he later came to view the abstention from the use of all animal products as the logical extension of this philosophy. A committed pacifist throughout his life, he registered as a conscientious objector in the war, and faced the harshest challenges to his ethical position[5]. It was at this time that the need for a word to describe his way of life, and a society to promote its ideals, became apparent; together with his wife, Dorothy, they decided on the word ‘vegan’ by taking the first three and last two letters of "vegetarian," - "because veganism starts with vegetarianism and carries it through to its logical conclusion," and the Society was founded in 1944[2]." [2]
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_Society >
"The Vegan Society defines veganism as "...a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose." [3]
In other words the term was precisely coined to distinguish between a vegetarian diet to a philosophy including a strict vegetarian diet, with an implicit ethical stance, seeking to exclude the use of all animal products.
Interstates ( talk) 23:28, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
I recently learned that there are people that include vegans in an eating disorder called orthorexia nervosa (those obsessed with eating healthy food). Since veganism is a philosophy - not a diet - I am hopeful that this term never ends up on Wikipedia’s veganism page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GlassLadyBug ( talk • contribs) 1 April 2011
The term "vegan" was coined in England by Donald Watson, who founded the British Vegan Society in 1944, motivation was ethical to sentient animals:
"We can see quite plainly that our present civilisation is built on the exploitation of animals, just as past civilisations were built on the exploitation of slaves, and we believe the spiritual destiny of man is such that in time he will view with abhorrence the idea that men once fed on the products of animals' bodies". ( http://ukveggie.com/vegan_news/ )
— Donald Watson, Vegan News, nº1, November 1944.
Xxxzenicxxx ( talk) 02:56, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Images: It does not seem right the first image, it gives the false idea that veganism is just one type of food. Would be more appropriate image of a human petting a non-human animal in a sanctuary. Xxxzenicxxx ( talk) 21:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Nirvana, I'm going to restore H.Jay Dinshah to the lead and how he linked veganism to the concept of ahimsa, as that seems quite important and central to the movement, and it's what the source says. [16] SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 13:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Nirvana, can you say what you're looking to achieve with the edits? For example, I can't see the point of pointing out that vegan is the first few and last few letters of vegetarian, because it's obvious. Ethical veganism isn't just about animal products but about animal use. The vitamins subsections are part of the "vegan diet" section. Dietary veganism is about eating a plant-based diet; how strict it needs to be is an open question, as the article explains. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 18:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
So is honey vegan? Our best answer is 'We don’t know.' If one is concerned about doing harm to insects, it’s not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables or alternative sweeteners, since the harvesting and transportation of all crops involves some insect deaths. ... Saying that honey is a significant ethical issue brings in a range of other issues that people can easily dismiss veganism, reducto ad absurdum. Can't eat honey? Can't kill cockroaches? Can't swat mosquitoes? Squashing flies with your car is the same as eating veal? ...
And this brings us back to the original question of what is a 'vegan'? Perhaps instead of defining a vegan as 'someone who does not use animal products,' we should define a vegan as 'someone who reasonably avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans.' [19]
The original
Vegan Society defined veganism very early on as “the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals”, and now defines it as “a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose.” So it’s clear from just about the beginning, that veganism differentiates itself from vegetarianism in that it’s about avoiding exploiting animals, as opposed to just avoiding killing them.
Honey is made from human exploitation of bees. It should be as clear to anybody that honey is not vegan, as it is that eggs, milk and wool aren’t. (All four of these involve human exploitation of animal biology and behaviour without killing the animal.)
Here is the Vegan Society’s current position on honey:
http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/animals/bees-and-honey.aspx
That some vegans eat honey does not mean that honey is vegan, it means that some vegans are more lax than others in the practical application of their vegan philosophy, or that they are simply ignorant of the fact that honey is not vegan.
Enjoying honey is different from enjoying plant products whose “harvesting and transportation involves some insect deaths” in that it’s possible to raise plants without intentionally killing insects, whereas honey production intentionally exploits insects.
Taking the same logic about as far but with a little left turn, to say that using bees as pollinators in plant agriculture isn’t necessarily nonvegan, would be wrong – farmers are typically agnostic about what bees are pollinating their crop; their relationship with the bees is a kind of symbiosis rather than exploitation. —
TheHerbalGerbil(
TALK|
STALK), 13:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
I am not sure what is happening here, but from Archive 7 to Archive 15 is blank. It seems the archive system, automatic or otherwise, is not working. Nirvana2013 ( talk) 18:19, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I've just noticed SlimVirgin has already taken this up (see here). Nirvana2013 ( talk) 18:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Why was my edit reverted? [20] The references say it. Nirvana2013 ( talk) 08:19, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
The way this reads is that veganism involves stopping others from using animal products rather than it being a personal endeavour. Muleattack ( talk) 01:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello. Me again. I'm the person who says that this article is incorrect in splitting out veganism into dietary and ethical distinctions. Well, I spent a few minutes searching Google Books for definitions of veganism, and have pasted them below. NONE OF THEM define "ethical veganism". NONE OF THEM define dietary veganism as something separate from the philosophical belief of veganism.
To be honest, I could keep searching forever and find hundreds of similar examples. But these will do for now.
Will somebody please edit this article? I would do so, but it would get reverted by the individual who believes they own this article, and who I believe is trying to set an agenda.
Here are the definitions:
"Veganism is a practical philosophy oriented toward living without directly or indirectly harming or exploiting animals and actively seeking to end that harm and exploitation where it exists."
- Cultural Encyclopedia of Vegetarianism
- Margaret Puskar-Pasewicz
"Veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle whose adherents seek to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose."
- Veganism: The History, the Ethics, Nutrition, Cuisine, and Groups
- Emeline Fort
"Someone who follows a vegan diet avoids eating, drinking, wearing, using, or otherwise consuming anything that contains animal ingredients or that was tested on animals."
- Living Vegan for Dummies
- Alexandra Jamieson
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.174.214 ( talk) 12:36, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Yes I have read your text from the sources above. The other sources which seem to mention both terms are Vegetarian Times, 1989 and Sheri Lucas in Hypatia: A Journal of Feminist Philosophy. On another point and not actually my position on this matter, but perhaps this source supports the issue that other editors are having with the terms dietary/ethical veganism: Being vegan: living with conscience, conviction, and compassion (2000) by Joanne Stepaniak (page 9 and 10). Stepaniak would not like to see the meaning of the term veganism diluted in the same way as vegetarianism (i.e. the public now believe it is normal for a vegetarian to eat fish and chicken). She believes that veganism should be kept for those who follow the full philosophy. Those who only follow the diet should use the terms "total vegetarian", "pure vegetarian", "strict vegetarian" or "transitioning to veganism". Since 2000 there is a further term which has come into use which is "plant-based diet". Nirvana2013 ( talk) 08:05, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
As I wrote earlier, this article has been plagued for a long time—more than most—with the problem of editors adding their own opinions, and removing material they personally disagree with, no matter how well-sourced it is. To do that is to misunderstand what Wikipedia does. Our articles are simply supposed to document what reliable sources who have written about veganism have said, preferably secondary sources. That is, we offer an overview of the relevant literature. See our three core content policies: WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV.
We must, per WP:NPOV, offer a neutral overview of this, which means we include views that we agree and disagree with, the majority- and significant-minority views of the reliable sources. It's a violation of the neutrality and sourcing policies to remove views simply because we don't like them, or because they don't fit what we personally believe "veganism" is or ought to be. For Wikipedia, veganism is defined by the reliable sources who write about it, and we simply tell our readers what those sources have said.
As for the issue of "dietary veganism" and whether it exists, of course it does, and always has. There are committed animal rights advocates who self-identify as dietary vegans (e.g. Robert Garner, source, plus he avoids leather). To deny this is to fly in the face of significant evidence. I understand that some vegans feel dietary restrictions aren't extensive enough to earn the label "vegan," and I respect the reasoning behind that. But it's personal opinion, and it simply isn't borne out by the sources, so it's not a view Wikipedia can adopt.
We can, of course, include reliable sources who say dietary veganism isn't really veganism, if such sources exist. But that would involve the addition of a view, not the removal of the view that dietary veganism is real. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 01:46, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I could use help with demographics. I found a good careful study and just added that information. However in another source, I was not able to confirm it, and it was indirect (not on the website of the organization whic found the statistic) so I did not add from this second source. The second source is: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3289/is_4_175/ai_n16128605/pg_2/ which asserts, "According to the Vegetarian Resource Group, more than 10% of females under 25 now claim to occasionally practice vegan eating." If true this would be remarkable, since the general population in the US has been reported to be between 0.2% to 0.5% in more recent (the 2008 study I just added) and thus 10%, even if restricted to under-25 females doing so "occasionally" would be very significant: between 20 to 50 times the general population rate. Unforutnately I see no contact information for the author ( J. Hugh McEvoy) nor could I find a page right on the vegetarian resource group's page to confirm this statistic. If you can find it, that would be great (if you can, go ahead and add it to the demographics section, I don't need to be the one doing it :-) -- Harel ( talk) 01:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
"Although some vegans attempt to avoid all these ingredients, Vegan Outreach argues that "it can be prohibitively expensive and time-consuming to shun every minor or hidden animal-derived ingredient," and therefore that doing what is "best for preventing suffering" is more important than identifying and excluding every animal ingredient.[28][29]"
This is badly worded, first the 'some' vegans is a weasel word, suggesting a minority. Secondly the 'Vegan Outreach argues that' part seems to suggest that the opinion of the aforementioned vegans is wrong. Vegan Outreach are not 'arguing', it is their opinion. Other vegan organisations support the avoidance of such products yet this is not mentioned. Muleattack ( talk) 01:56, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
"Poorly planned vegan diets can be low in levels of calcium, iodine, vitamin B12, iron and vitamin D."
Obviously poorly planned vegan diets (and any other diet for that matter) can be low in anything and everything so why are these mentioned in particular? The sentence has no citation.
Muleattack ( talk) 14:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
This dose not have anything to do with the cow picture your talking about but another cow picture on the page. Im not an expert but Im just throwing this out there as some food for thought. The caption reads something to the effect of how cows produce large amount of green house gases, there for supporting the idea that a reason to not eat meat is to be more environmentally friendly. Im going to assume the green house gases being refered to are methane. How ever this leads to a some what of a conundrum, every vegetarian and vegan I have met eats rice. Rice is grown in swamps and because it is the staple diet of the most populous countries on earth. Is on of the highest methane and green house gas producing factors on the planet. So I don't really think its fare to condemn cow eating because it produces methane unless you also say the same for rice. 131.230.146.135 ( talk) 01:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I recommend that this section of the article be removed, as it has nothing to do with the actual vegan diet, nor does it have to do with vegan lifestyle. I would even go so far as to contend that this section poisons the neutrality of this article, in so far as it introduces a link between eating disorders and vegetarianism wherein the vegan diet and lifestyle is not the cause of said eating disorder. It certainly does not belong under the heading "health concerns," since the concern is eating disorders and not the vegan diet and lifestyle itself. If this information belongs in any article, it should go in eating disorders, not veganism. Nic01445 ( talk) 02:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
I did read the section, and I stand by my previous claims. Cited or not, eating disorders are in no way relevant to nutritional concerns of the vegan diet. I'm not claiming that there is no link, I'm claiming that the link is irrelevant to the article, in the sense that it does not describe veganism, but rather it describes eating disorders. Nic01445 ( talk) 20:09, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
The paragraph that Veganmer added on the possibility of B12 from bacteria in the soil on unwashed vegetables conflicts with a claim made in the next paragraph that "organic produce, soil on unwashed vegetables" cannot be relied on for B12. How should we deal with this inconsistency? -- N-k ( talk) 13:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
So much for Kellen adhering to policies about politeness while avoiding personal attacks....... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.107.38 ( talk) 03:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
If Kellen considers him/herself the barometer of what is/is not relevant to veganism, gosh, I will surely notify all the vegans of the world. I don't think they got that memo. Kellen's opinion may be "bullshit" (that's not a personal attack, in your words), but he/she is entitled to it. Actually, anyone who obsesses over something like a wiki page like Kellen does has misplaced priorities. That's my opinion, and I'm entitled to that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veganmer ( talk • contribs) 00:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
The sentence "Abortion is a topic vegans avoid but are avidly criticized for because some fetuses experience pain, but they aren't used for food" is floating around on its own without any citation. Because I am a vegan I am totally opposed to abortion, so that disproves the sweeping universal statement immediately. It's reasonable to have a section on abortion but this isn't a good start. Salopian ( talk) 00:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I removed that sentence less than an hour ago. I apologize for not checking here first; I'm not completely accustomed to Wikipedia etiquette, although I'm learning. I, too, thought that the statement was inaccurate due to the sweeping claim it made. Also, the grammar was confusing and, like you mentioned, it was not supported with any further argument or citation. Advocateofveganism ( talk) 04:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Not exist vegan diet for health reasons. Exist the 100% vegetarian diet for health reasons. Veganism is not a diet. Veganism is a philosophy and a lifestyle based on respect for sentient animals that includes a 100% vegetarian diet. Xxxzenicxxx ( talk) 02:16, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Based on what you say above, it would be wrong for someone who follows a vegan diet, yet wears fur, to call himself a veganist (or a follower of veganism). However, that person can certainly refer to himself as a vegan, meaning a dietary vegan. While it is important to state and reference the expert definition, it is silly to deny the reality of how people self-identify; just as I said about semi-vegetarian - which I'm sure you'll agree is inconsistent, yet part of the vegetarianism article. If a Christian kills someone, however justified, he has violated a basic tenet of that religion, so is he no longer Christian? I'll agree with you that veganism is a philosophy (or an ideology) but vegan also describes anyone who follows a diet that fits within the definition of veganism. This could be explained within the article rather than dismissed as inconsistent which makes the article less inclusive. Bob98133 ( talk) 13:49, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
What do vegans have against using animal products like milk and eggs? You don't have to kill a cow or chicken for those things. Milk is there as natural food/drink. Emperor001 ( talk) 23:20, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Throughout the article, there seems to be a recurrent assumption that animals experiencing pain is the basis for veganism. This may be the case for many vegans, but the problem is that there is then a kind of scornful tone to comments about how honey can be non-vegan or vegans can be in favour of abortion. All of these issues depend upon why/whether someone is a vegan in the first place. (Using insect products is a consistent position that can be argued validly, but that doesn't amount to it being a type of veganism.) Salopian ( talk) 00:53, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Hey, RTG, I think you're getting a little free and loose with definitions and what content should be in this article. I am unaware or any restriction against veganism in Judaism. I do not think that food and diet is the primary feature of veganism, although that point is confusing. The Society for Krishna Consciousness (Hare Krishnas - which is probably a derogatory term) are not vegan. No problem discussing what should or shouldn't be in the article, but let's at least start with things that can be referenced. Bob98133 ( talk) 12:33, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
RTG - since you are unwilling or unable to concisely state what you think is missing or should be changed in this article, I am not longer participating in this discussion. Bob98133 ( talk) 15:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
By the way, my last comment wasn't meant to discourage you. If you can find any reliable, clear sources about pre-Watson vegans, that information would be worth adding. -- N-k ( talk) 15:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
The section I have made is very reasonable. You have already put a warning on it saying you think it's a "synthesis". So whatever bad you think might come of it is protected against. Why don't you let it stay there and get people's reactions to it, see if THEY think it's a synthesis?
Wikipedia's guidelines advise against casually reverting other people's edits.
I took out the Steven Zeisel quote, that's unnecessary if there is the list of the choline contents and calories of foods. I think it is a very good section and it should be left in peace for a while. Puffysphere ( talk)
User Uncle Dick or Puffysphere or whoever you are - Please discuss, as asked, why you believe the inclusion of recent material about choline and vegan diets is not WP:OR and WP:UNDUE in reference to your recent edits. Bob98133 ( talk) 15:53, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
All the calculations in of the choline content of foods are from reputable sources, and I gave solid references for the data they use.
The reason I included those lists of choline content is that I wanted to give vegans a good perspective of how much choline their diet is likely to include.
I've seen many websites where plant foods are listed as good choline sources, when they aren't. For example, many websites list nuts or peanuts as good choline sources. They aren't, for the reason I gave, that nuts and peanuts don't have enough choline for the calories. I'm trying to correct a misconception people might have from websites online.
Also, that choline is an essential nutrient is not a minority viewpoint! The Adequate Intake was set by the Institute of Medicine. There's no RDA yet defined for choline, but I've read that the Institute of Medicine recommends that USDA set an RDA for choline the next time it reviews the RDA's.
I undid the deletion of the material I included, since I think it's helpful and objective.
Puffysphere (
talk) 17:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
ps If you think it's a minority view, can anyone show me published scientific research contradicting my statements? I'm trying to be objective, but I haven't seen any such research. Puffysphere ( talk) 17:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
No, I'm not saying that nuts have too much fat for the choline. What I said is that you would have to consume a huge amount of calories of nuts to get a significant amount of choline from them. That is a simple calculation from the published data.
Why do you think that the article shouldn't correct common misconceptions - or give people an impression of how much choline is available from different styles of vegan diets? I think both of those things are legitimate things to do.
Yes, the article is long already. I'd be willing to create a separate article if people think that is appropriate. Maybe it would be a good idea to move the entire section on "nutritional concerns about vegan diets" to a separate article.
Choline is a rather obscure nutrient. It was only declared an essential nutrient in 1998. Vegans are just as unaware of it as other people, and I think it's important to include a good deal of info about it, because vegans are especially at risk for choline deficiency.
Puffysphere (
talk) 18:57, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
The reason for the common misconception about nuts being a good plant source of choline, is that there's an easily accessible database showing the amount of choline per 100 grams of a food, ranked by the amount. Nuts are high on that list. But 100 grams of nuts is a heck of a lot of nuts! It would be useful if there were a database showing amount of choline for a standard serving of a food, but there isn't any that I know of.
Puffysphere (
talk) 19:23, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
There are three basic reasons that people adopt a vegan diet, that I know of: health, concern for animals and concern for the environment. Perhaps those should be three separate articles. The health article could include both the nutritional advantages and the risks of deficiency in a vegan diet. That would give it a more balanced feel than an article just about deficiency risks
Puffysphere (
talk) 23:20, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
Bob - It isn't original research, it is referenced a LOT. I cited the Dietary Reference Intakes, the Linus Pauling Institute, and several published scientific papers.
One can do basic arithmetical calculations in Wikipedia. I can put the exact calculations into footnotes if you like, and anyone can check them.
The choline to calories ratio is also not a concept that's new with me. Dr. Steven Zeisel used it in one of his papers. That's basically what I used in this section.
I suggested splitting the article on veganism into several sections, because people brought up "the article is too long already" as a reason to delete information I wrote. Yes, it's long and maybe it would work better, split up.
I edited my choline section, to try to avoid giving the impression that I'm "telling vegans what to eat"; and to give more information on what the Adequate Intake means.
One caveat to this whole choline thing is that many people will be fine even though they aren't getting the Adequate Intake.
But the problem with getting less than the AI is that there isn't yet a test available to doctors to tell you if your body is choline deficient. So getting less than the AI is taking a risk.
Please stick with discussion and don't just delete what I wrote. It's important information, and it's very verifiable. I'm sticking strictly to the facts, and presenting a balanced view. I am responsive to people's feedback, I changed my section because of it.
Puffysphere (
talk) 15:40, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Bob, You haven't been answering the things I've said. It's OK to make "routine calculations", see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3AOR#Routine_calculations
They are simple arithmetic. Anyone with a calculator can check them.
I have been presenting a neutral viewpoint. As I said earlier, if anyone can show me published research that contradicts what I said, do. If you can convince me that many scientists who know about choline disagree with what I said, do.
But I think when the
Institute of Medicine established an Adequate Intake for choline, they were looking at the research on it. They're a good objective source!
—Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Puffysphere (
talk •
contribs) 16:58, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I included that information on the calories of plant foods you have to eat to get the AI of choline, because there's a common misconception that "oh, leafy green vegetables, soy, beans have a lot of choline - so a vegan doesn't have to worry about it".
I went on a vegan forum a few months ago, talking about choline, and that was the sort of thing people said. It's important to be quantitative about it, to avoid that kind of rationalization. And I'm using this information to illustrate both sides of the issue: yes, you can get enough choline in a vegan diet, without taking supplements. But, it is a serious challenge since so many plant foods are low in choline. I calculated the choline content in some sample vegan diet plans - Mcdougall plan, with no empty calories - and it came out far below the Adequate Intake.
I'm not bashing veganism. I'm almost entirely vegan myself.
What I wrote is extensively referenced, and it shouldn't be deleted.
Puffysphere (
talk) 16:53, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
A lifestyle cannot seek anything. See lead section. Is that even a copyvio? ~ R. T. G 22:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
The USDA uses amount of choline per 100 grams of food. [5]. They do this to avoid confusion and nonsensical comparisons, such as I've removed. Can the editor who placed this please provide a reference in which food quantities which provide a particular amount of choline are listed? I say we go with the USDA figures since they are a normal, widely accepted method of reporting choline content of foods. Bob98133 ( talk) 19:52, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Vegans may be at risk of choline deficiency and may benefit from choline supplements. [2] Choline has many functions in the body, and choline deficiency may cause a number of health concerns. [3] The Institute of Medicine has set the Adequate Intake of choline at 425 mg (milligrams) per day for women and 550 mg/day for men [4] [5], but the Estimated Average Requirement for choline has not yet been evaluated and dietary intake requirements of choline are not yet fully understood. [6] [7]
This reference [6] is used to support the need for choline. However, the source states "Choline or betaine supplementation in humans reduces concentration of total homocysteine (tHcy). It appears that this reference to betaine has been intentionally left out of the article to support the position that choline is essential for reducing homocysteines. It appears from a quick reading of the reference that the interaction of these two chemicals is more important than MDR of choline. Either this has to be corrected or removed. Bob98133 ( talk) 20:02, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
The reference used to support this [7] states that "Several nutritional factors have been implicated in the occurrence of neural tube defects (NTDs). Foremost among those factors has been the role of periconceptional intake of folic acid." Changing this to imply that choline alone may protect against this is misleading. The closest the ref says is that choline may be involved or may be a factor. This material should be removed or changed to reflect the actual content of the source. Bob98133 ( talk) 20:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
Wikilinking to Adequate intake, then supplying a reference defining it is redundant and unnecessarily bloats the article. I suggest that this sentence and its reference be removed. Bob98133 ( talk) 20:12, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
I have found editor Puffysphere's reversions of material that go contrary to the concensus of other editors to be obstructive to improving this article since he does not seem to stay on track and reverts material without concensus. In an effort to address problems with his edits, I have broken them down into my specific objections (aside from WP:OR and WP:UNDUE, both of which I still believe to be true. Perhaps Puffy can stay on one topic at a time and discuss each of these objections separately. Bob98133 ( talk) 20:18, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
You should give a basis for the allegations of OR and UNDUE. I'm not being biased. If you think I am, come up with research on Medline http://pubmed.com that disagrees with what I've said. You've been drastically editing what I wrote without consensus. That could be considered disruptive.
Puffysphere ( talk) 20:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
I changed the Choline section. It can be viewed at
user:Puffysphere.
Puffysphere (
talk) 22:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm a graduate student of Gary Varner's here at TAMU. He's not a vegan, but is a pesco-vegetarian. I've corrected it to reflect that fact. Everyone may now go about their business. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.21.177 ( talk) 02:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
It looks like the person who placed the mental health benefits section under nutritional concerns made a mistake. I'm not quite sure how to correct that.--Bloody Rose 02:59, 11 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by BloodyRose ( talk • contribs)
Should the first paragraph of the article aknowledge that people may exlcude animal products from their diet without aligning themselves to a particular philosophy? 33gsd ( talk) 13:14, 26 August 2010 (UTC)33gsd
Why, if criticism of veganism must be locked away in its own section, is that section primarily given over (75%?) to criticism of those criticisms? That is, if the one can be mixed with the other, why can't the other be mixed with the one?
...what's good for the goose, etc...
Last time I checked, the actual guideline was to include criticisms throughout rather than devoting an entire section to them in order to afford those criticisms greater context and to contribute to an overall neutral point of view. Setting one against the other naturally encourages editors to take sides and necessarily disrupts the flow of ideas as readers are forced to transition through concepts repeatedly in order to understand both sides of any controversy.
J.M. Archer ( talk) 19:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
Since there was no reply to my last post, I've moved the paragraphs here in order to discuss them:
Steven Davis, a professor of animal science at Oregon State University, argues that following Tom Regan's "least harm principle" may not necessarily require the adoption of a vegan diet because there are non-vegetarian diets which "may kill fewer animals" than are killed in the intensive crop production necessary to support vegetarian diets. In particular, Davis calculates that a diet partially based on large grass-fed ruminants like cows, would kill fewer animals than a vegan diet. [8]
Davis's analysis has itself been criticized, such as by Gaverick Matheny, a Ph.D. candidate in agricultural economics at the University of Maryland, College Park, and by Andy Lamey, a Ph.D. student at the University of Western Australia. Matheny argues that Davis miscalculates the number of animal deaths based on land area rather than per consumer, and incorrectly equates "the harm done to animals … to the number of animals killed." Matheny argues that per-consumer, a vegan diet would kill fewer wild animals than a diet adhering to Davis's model, and that vegetarianism "involves better treatment of animals, and likely allows a greater number of animals with lives worth living to exist." [9]
Lamey characterizes Davis's argument as "thought-provoking", but asserts that Davis's calculation of harvesting-related deaths is flawed because it is based upon two studies; one includes deaths from predation, which is "morally unobjectionable" for Regan, and the other examines production of a nonstandard crop, which Lamey argues has "little relevance" to the deaths associated with typical crop production. Lamey also argues, like Matheny, that accidental deaths are ethically distinct from intentional ones, and that if Davis includes accidental animal deaths in the moral cost of veganism he must also evaluate the increased human deaths associated with his proposed diet, which Lamey argues leaves "Davis, rather than Regan, with the less plausible argument." [10]
References
- ^ The Vegetarian Way: Total Health for You and Your Family (1996), Virginia Messina, MPH, RD, & Mark Messina, PhD p. 102
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
vegancholine
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ Cite error: The named reference
linuspauling
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ "Dietary Reference Intakes for ... Choline". Institute of Medicine.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
USDA-DRI-Choline
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).- ^ "Dietary Reference Intakes: Vitamins". Institute of Medicine. 2001.
- ^ "USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference". USDA. Retrieved 2010-05-20.
- ^ Davis, Steven L. (2003). "The Least Harm Principle May Require that Humans Consume a Diet Containing Large Herbivores, Not a Vegan Diet". Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics. 16 (4): 387–394.
the LHP may actually be better served using food production systems that include both plant-based agriculture and a forage-ruminant-based agriculture as compared to a strict plant-based (vegan) system.{{ cite journal}}
:|access-date=
requires|url=
( help)- ^ Gaverick Matheny (2003). "Least harm: a defense of vegetarianism from Steven Davis's omnivorous proposal". Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics. 16 (5): 505–511. doi: 10.1023/A:1026354906892.
While eating animals who are grazed rather than intensively confined would vastly improve the welfare of farmed animals given their current mistreatment, Davis does not succeed in showing this is preferable to vegetarianism. First, Davis makes a mathematical error in using total rather than per capita estimates of animals killed; second, he focuses on the number of animals killed in ruminant and crop production systems and ignores important considerations about the welfare of animals under both systems; and third, he does not consider the number of animals who are prevented from existing under the two systems. After correcting for these errors, Davis's argument makes a strong case for, rather than against, adopting a vegetarian diet.- ^ Lamey, Andy (2007). "Food Fight! Davis versus Regan on the Ethics of Eating Beef". Journal of Social Philosophy. 38 (2): 331–348. doi: 10.1111/j.1467-9833.2007.00382.x. Retrieved 2009-02-22.
To start with, the scientific studies on which Davis relies actually document two different forms of harm to field animals: there are those directly killed by harvesting equipment and those that become the prey of other animals. ... Davis also overlooks philosophically significant forms of harm to human beings that are present in beef production but not vegetable harvesting. Finally, he bases his argument on the implausible assumption that there is no difference between deliberate and accidental killing—either of an animal or a person.
Now, these three paragraphs are sourced and attributed, so they fulfill WP:A. But are they in line with WP:DUE? Obviously this article should include sourced criticism of Veganism, but in doing so it should stick to the most prominent and prevalent arguments brought forth. The above seems like a lengthy and detailed discussion of what seems to be a minor point. Any thoughts? Gabbe ( talk) 07:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Extended content
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Misconceptions About Eating Meat - Comments of Sikh Scholars," at The Sikhism Home Page Sikhs and Sikhism by I.J. Singh, Manohar, Delhi ISBN 9788173040580 Throughout Sikh history, there have been movements or subsects of Sikhism which have espoused vegetarianism. I think there is no basis for such dogma or practice in Sikhism. Certainly Sikhs do not think that a vegetarian's achievements in spirituality are easier or higher. It is surprising to see that vegetarianism is such an important facet of Hindu practice in light of the fact that animal sacrifice was a significant and much valued Hindu Vedic ritual for ages. Guru Nanak in his writings clearly rejected both sides of the arguments—on the virtues of vegetarianism or meat eating—as banal and so much nonsense, nor did he accept the idea that a cow was somehow more sacred than a horse or a chicken. He also refused to be drawn into a contention on the differences between flesh and greens, for instance. History tells us that to impart this message, Nanak cooked meat at an important Hindu festival in Kurukshetra. Having cooked it he certainly did not waste it, but probably served it to his followers and ate himself. History is quite clear that Guru Hargobind and Guru Gobind Singh were accomplished and avid hunters. The game was cooked and put to good use, to throw it away would have been an awful waste. Guru Granth Sahib, An Analytical Study by Surindar Singh Kohli, Singh Bros. Amritsar ISBN :8172050607 The ideas of devotion and service in Vaishnavism have been accepted by Adi Granth, but the insistence of Vaishnavas on vegetarian diet has been rejected. A History of the Sikh People by Dr. Gopal Singh, World Sikh University Press, Delhi ISBN 9788170231394 However, it is strange that now-a-days in the Community-Kitchen attached to the Sikh temples, and called the Guru's Kitchen (or, Guru-ka-langar) meat-dishes are not served at all. May be, it is on account of its being, perhaps, expensive, or not easy to keep for long. Or, perhaps the Vaishnava tradition is too strong to be shaken off. |
I restored some material on Steven Davis's critique of veganism due to animals being killed in the cultivation of vegan food. Davis's position is important, as evidence in the fact that his argument has been covered in cover stories in Time magazine and The New York Times Magazine. I've mentioned this fact to give a better sense of the importance of the debate Davis set off. Porphyry Jones ( talk) 15:17, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Keep in mind that Davis' argument is especially stupid seeing as how 60-70% of the corn, oats, and some other grains grown in the US are fed to livestock, not humans. So even if harvesting that grain kills animals, it is then fed to livestock, which, as you might imagine, leads to even more deaths. But this is only relevant if you entertain his grasping-at-straws argument. Also keep in mind that he is a professor of animal science... 128.192.20.135 ( talk) 13:27, 1 July 2010 (UTC)askantik
I would like to revert, to leave my quote in. (a) The China study is not mentioned below, but only Colin Campbell, with a reference to the China Study. So you'd have to be pretty determined and well informed to get at this clear, international scientific evidence off site. (b) I put it in the introduction, since the previous post had inserted 'may' have health benefits whereas I think a more positive, still neutral statement, is more informative for readers.
Comments welcome, otherwise I shall revert.
TonyClarke ( talk) 20:37, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
I am returning the "may." There is at present no consensus that the vegan diet is healthier than other diets, and the more cautious phrasing accurately reflects this uncertainty. The more recent of the two references given for the passage itself uses the qualifier "may." The China Study is only one of many studies that address this topic. As Wikipedia's own entry on the China Study shows, its conclusions are disputed by many. Citing only this one study gives it more weight than it merits.
The best solution would be to add a new section that discussed the evidence for and against a vegan diet providing protection from various diseases. Short of this, the statement that a vegan diet may provide such protection is an accurate and unbiased summary of current thinking. Struvite ( talk) 02:47, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
TonyClarke ( talk) 20:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
RyokoMocha ( talk) 07:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
here This was great. Pamela Anderson, for instance, turning "over a new leaf" is infinitely more representative of the "Philosophical foundations" of veganism than slaughtering cattle is. I've never heard of vegans who slaughtered cattle and in fact I would be comfortable with the idea that the cattle slaughter picture here was not associated with veganism in any way besides here on this Wikipedia page. Isnt it one of the more frequently used images on slaughter-related articles? I have seen it once or twice on articles that are nothing vegan whatsoever. A long time ago images of a slaughterhouse finally convinced me that something was a neccesity rather than an ideal but you can be sure that the almost cute picture here does not represent that even remotely save for the fact that I am led to believe it was a slaughterhouse. Bring back Pammie Anderson. Bar the slaughter house. There is no place for veganism in a slaughter house and no place for a slaughter house in veganism. ~ R. T. G 21:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
I removed:
Because the phrasing seemed a bit suspect. I unfortunately can't access the full text of the article (Nirvana2013, maybe you can) in order to get a full view of its contents, but from the pubmed description, it seemed likely that Barnard personally showed nothing (that is, did no research) but instead published a synthesis of existing research. That's okay, it's what PCRM does, but the line here seems like a mischaracterization. Can someone cite the actual text of this article in order to confirm (or not) this? An additional issue is that there is already a section devoted to diabetes, and it seems likely that this addition would be redundant to that one. Kellen T 21:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
In the section titled Similar diets and lifestyles, I propose to delete the following sentence:
«Some small Sikh sects have lacto-vegetarian lifestyles.»
After all, this article is about veganism, not lacto-vegetarianism. Any objections? TheLastNinja ( talk) 18:58, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Much of the content of this article relies on the Vegan Society website and other sources that advocate for a vegan diet, and thus do not qualify as unbiased. For example, the claim that vitamin B12 deficiency is rare in vegans is supported solely by a reference to "What every vegan should know about vitamin B12," an article posted on the Vegan Society website. This claim is contradicted by several studies that have found widespread B12 deficiency in vegans, and even earlier in the article, where the higher rate of death from ischemic heart disease in fish eaters than in vegans is attributed to B12 deficiency in vegans. I probably will remove some the claims based solely on biased sources, but I want to give a heads up first to give people a chance to back them up with credible references. Struvite ( talk) 19:00, 14 November 2010 (UTC)
As choline is abundant in plant sources and as I've not once in my research encountered any other source that claims choline deficiency to be a problem for vegans, I suggest the removal of this section. In its place we should include a section on omega-3 deficiency, which is a problem for vegans who don't eat a balanced diet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.75.30 ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
It might be helpful to reorganize this article, too, so that we can highlight which nutrients beginner vegans need to pay attention to and ensure getting enough of VS. which nutrient deficiencies are of particular concern for vegans who don't eat balanced diets. Right now, these two things seem to be blended together, which gives the misleading impression that there exist nutritional concerns about planned vegan diets. I don't currently have time to reorganize the article better, but perhaps others do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.75.30 ( talk • contribs) 17:51, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest the removal of references to the child deaths at the hands of parents who are vegan, which is overly-weighty for the length of the entry. Untold numbers of children die annually in the care of omnivorous parents from diabetes and other diseases, and these deaths are not mentioned, let alone listed and detailed in the article on human omnivorism. Nor should they be-they are not the result of omnivorism, but of parental neglect. Such is the case with veganism.
Different standards of relevance shouldn't be applied to veganism's entry simply because it's less popular. -- 64.130.148.99 ( talk) 06:10, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
Please explain what is meant by "I understand where you're coming from"? Where exactly do I come from and why does it matter. Do I have to specifically come from somewhere? And where exactly do you come from? Its the genetic fallacy (logical fallacy). I find this conduct offensive, intimidating and hurting. WP:PERSONAL
Similarly, if ALL human lives are considered equal, it "can lead to absurdities such as allowing thieves to steal, or murderers to run loose on one's premises."
This is not a valid criticism. And I do not think that Wikipedia is a place to debate veganism. If this is debated in the actual article, then rebuttals should also be allowed. Otherwise, the readers will only get one side of the story and a biased view. This criticism itself is not an WP:NPOV. I propose the criticism to be either removed, or a fair ideological rebuttal allowed. Since the criticism is not of scientific (but ideological nature), no scientific sources can be sited and the rebuttal itself can only be of ideological character. Manujchandra ( talk) 09:07, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The criticism section needs to be cleaned. Known logical fallacies needs to be either addressed or the fallacy removed. The nutrition section is criticizing the vegan diet with the following line of reasoning: " IF a vegan diet is not properly planned...". Its a big hypothetical IF with no basis in modern scientific literature, and is applicable to an animal based diets too. For eg, both vegans and non-vegans will suffer the same consequences of vitamin B-12 deficiency. Yvonne Bishop-Weston a leading UK Nutritionist says, "In UK clinic I rarely find vegetarians with significant B12 and Iron deficiencies, they tend to be more aware of failings in our modern diets. More often than not meat eaters are lulled into a false sense of security that the Standard American Diet (SAD diet) of Meat, cheese and processed carbohydrates stripped of nutrients and fibre provides them with all the vitamins and minerals that they need". Manuj Chandra ( talk) 08:16, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
I made some changes in a sandboxed version of the article, and request that you go over it. See edit summaries for reasons. You're welcome to edit that page. I hope we can gain a consensus for a better version of the article it and then insert it. BE——Critical__ Talk 01:33, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
The statement that there are many vegans in India is incorrect. Veganism in India is virtually unknown. http://business.in.com/article/recliner/being-vegan-in-india/4482/1
India are the largest consumers of animal milk in the world. The vegetarians in India follow a lacto vegetarian diet, which includes lots of dairy products. The word "vegan" is not common in India. A 'pure vegetarian' in India, means a person who consumes milk and milk products, but not meat and eggs. Kelly2357 ( talk) 22:59, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
A quick search turns up a few recent articles that suggest that this is likely an interesting topic to revisit at some point in the future - e.g., a a November 28, 2010 article states that "a growing number of middle-aged people in the city insist that sticking to a vegan diet is neither a fashion statement,nor a fad." "The Rise of the Vegans". The Times of India. It also notes that "Their clan (vegans) is growing in the city and so are the number of restaurants and shops that cater to their needs." (I had to click and hit escape and backspace carefully to be able to read the article without annoying sign-in requests, YMMV.) Unfortunately, the article has no quantitative numbers about the popularity of veganism in india. In support of the data from the business.in.com article above, the Times article also notes that "many vegans lament that sourcing organic food and eating out on a daily basis continues to be a challenge". Another recent (September 2010) article suggests a similar trend of "small but growing": http://www.sify.com/news/move-over-milk-silk-leather-the-indian-vegan-s-here-news-national-kjtlucdbief.html DavidAndersen ( talk) 03:07, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
The article says "Vegans endeavor to never consume or use any animal products of any type." But then goes on to say that insects are sometimes okay. Animals include insects, indeed any " multicellular, eukaryotic organism". The article needs to either exclude from the definition of veganism people who so much as eat bugs, or else stop defining veganism so strictly. It can't be both ways. It is obvious that the sources must mean "higher" forms of animal when they speak of "animal." But the article doesn't make that distinction clear. BE——Critical__ Talk 21:03, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
I noticed that the meta analysis concerning vegan mortality rates was removed by becritial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Veganism&action=historysubmit&diff=406563856&oldid=406389816
There may have been some other stuff missing but I was interested in this line but had to review history to get it:
A 1999 meta-study of five studies comparing vegetarian and non-vegetarian mortality rates in western countries found the mortality rate due to ischemic heart disease 26% lower among vegans compared to regular meat eaters, but 34% lower among ovolactovegetarians and among those who ate fish but no other meat — Preceding unsigned comment added by TimMony ( talk • contribs) 22:10, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
The article currently states that veganism is the most popular in Britain, but later says that it's even more popular in Sweden (0.25% versus at least 0.27%). What's the explanation?-- Bloody Rose ( talk) 02:08, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
From the article: "The population of Britain has the largest proportion of vegans, where 0.25% of the population self-identifies as vegan. In other countries the proportion ranges from 0.20% in the United States to between 0.27% and 1.6% in Sweden."
Both of these can't be right. If Sweden is 0.27% to 1.6%, then Sweden has the largest proportion of vegans. Bigpeteb ( talk) 15:35, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
In case anyone wants to check the cited reference for the Swedish figures, here's a translated excerpt from the book;
According to the Swedish Vegetarian Society, there are about 250 000 vegetarians in Sweden. Vegan Society in Sweden estimated that about 10 percent, thus 25 000, of them are vegans. Swedish Vegetarian Society relies primarily on two studies in his estimate of the number of vegetarians in Sweden. A study of Eureka Research, on behalf of Health Food Council, which, in June 1993 in which it appeared that 3 percent of those surveyed, about 225 000 people, said they eat vegetarian more or less regularly. The second source is a report published in Dagens Nyheter 96-04-01 where Research Group Social and Information Studies notes that 5 percent of Sweden's population said they were vegetarians. Some studies in the late 1990's, confirmed the figure of 250 000 vegetarians, and in the number of vegans has recent studies sometimes pointed to significantly higher numbers than the previous that estimate of 25 000. A study conducted by the telemarketing team on behalf of The union animal rights (former Nordic Society Against unfortunate Animal testing) showed that 1.6 percent of those polled were vegans and 3 percent are vegetarians. (15) The study had a large shortfall and is therefore subject to uncertainties. If this result is transmitted to the entire Sweden's population, it would mean that there are approximately 136 000 vegans and vegetarians around 255 000 in Sweden, measured at 8.5 million inhabitants. Another study from 1996 showed that 1 percent of the respondents were vegans. (16)
Translated Vegetarian Society website - http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.vegetarian.se/&ei=dTY4TbrCEcmDhQeP9vGKCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DSvenska%2BVegetariska%2BF%25C3%25B6reningen%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26hs%3DRZa%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divns
Translated Vegan Society website - http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=sv&u=http://www.vegan.se/&ei=4TY4TY_nKdCGhQeDnuiSCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3DVeganf%25C3%25B6reningen%2Bi%2BSverige%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dopera%26hs%3DBba%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divns
Muleattack ( talk) 13:25, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm trying a change to remove a statement about "the highest proportion" entirely and to just list the numbers - this seems more correct anyway, because, first of all, it's hard to directly compare all of the numbers (different years, different methods), and second, we don't know the numbers for every country in the world anyway. DavidAndersen ( talk) 14:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
There shouldn't be any statement about the "highest proportion" since there's not enough research anywhere in the world to make such a conclusion. Anything other that simply stating the numbers is wishful thinking. Kellen T 21:23, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Hate to bring this up, but the nutrition is horridly one sided, infants for example are not better off on vegan diets, or even vegetarian ones for that matter. Additionally, vegan diets are chronically low in absorbed iron; that is, the iron that is actually absorbed by the body. Plant source iron is not nearly as well absorbed as animal source iron, owing to factors of biochemical similarity (a human has much more in common with a cow than with a soya plant), and bioavalibility. In addition plant proteins are often upwards of 30 percent less bioavailable than animal ones (will post refs on request, I'd have to hunt them down), though egg whites are the best source of protein (which is why ovo vegetarians are often able to achieve adequate levels of protien intake) Furthermore, there are few reputable, uncontested studies that show that animal protien (in moderation, especially with red meat) is in any way harmful, again, with the notable exception of red meat (which is something I personally don't eat). Ronk01 talk 00:20, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi, Ron - I'd like to add some citation needed tags to your comment above to find a path to being able to present the issue more clearly - for studies about chronically low iron, etc. The article seems to be to be making the point that a "properly planned" vegan diet (emphasis on properly planned) can meet nutritional demands. Many of the cited articles make the point that this is the case despite reduced bioavailability from non-heme iron (eat more) and proteins (eat more). Perhaps what the article needs is more clarification on what it means for a vegan diet to be proper? I think this might make a great addition to the nutritional concerns section. But re the one-sidedness, right now the article has citations to several organizations that say that a vegan diet is acceptable and to the swiss and german organizations that caution against it for children. The "health" subsection says that a vegan diet is "appropriate", not that it is "better". Am I missing the part in the article you're referring to? There's an un-sourced sentence in there that says "Vegetarians avoid the negative health effects of animal protein including red meat" which would definitely benefit from a supporting citation or, additionally, a bit more wording to add nuance to the statement, since that's one of the first places where there's a claim in the article about negative health effects from animal protein. DavidAndersen ( talk) 02:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
To add to this, here are two other parts of the article's heading alone that violate NPOV and display a clearly subjective pro-Vegan prejudice:
Thanks for pointing that out. However, there's even more to this. Let's look a t this sentence a little closer: "Properly planned vegan diets are healthful and have been found to satisfy nutritional needs, and offer protection against obesity, heart and renal diseases, cancer and rheumatoid arthritis, but as with any diet, a poorly planned vegan diet can be deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,[11] iron,[12][13] vitamin D,[14] calcium,[14][15] iodine[16] and omega-3 fatty acids.[17].[18][19]" The part that claims health benefits, is very strong in its wording, using verbs have been found and are in them, as well as the vague and subjective word healthful. However, when it gets to other side of the argument, the claims are worded using the very weak verb can. And this is on top of the defensive and subjective disclaimer but as with any diet that I pointed out above.
I suggest changing the wording of this sentence to make it more factual and objective. Something like the following:
"Studies suggest that properly planned vegan diets might satisfy nutritional needs [provide ref], and offer protection against obesity [provide ref], heart and renal diseases [provide ref], cancer and rheumatoid arthritis [provide ref], while other studies suggest poorly planned vegan diets might be deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,[11] iron,[12][13] vitamin D,[14] calcium,[14][15] iodine[16] and omega-3 fatty acids.[17].[18][19]"
The following changes are made:
24.68.70.4 ( talk) 20:48, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Note that the papers themselves present those views as their positions. These are not facts, and the Wikipedia article should not be stating them as facts, and rather state that they are the ADA's position, just as the references do themselves.
Also, please address the inclusion "but as with any diet" in the sentence. I maintain that it is not providing anything factual is not found in any of the cited articles for that sentence. 24.68.70.4 ( talk) 21:53, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
The article references citation 89 a bunch, in many places to justify very very bold claims such as: "Nonetheless, well-balanced vegetarian and vegan diets can meet all these nutrient requirements and are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence."
However, the text under 89 is: "Cite error: Invalid ref tag; no text was provided for refs named ada; see Help:Cite errors/Cite error references no text"
This article can be used a perfect example of why Wikipedia is not a good source of objective information on controversial topics.
24.68.70.4 ( talk) 19:56, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
This article could use some work, and has deteriorated since I last saw it. It's overlinked, over-referenced, and repetitive. The references are not great, often primary sources. There's no need to add a ref for every point (such as a ref that soya milk is used instead of dairy, and another ref that almond milk is used, etc). The list-defined references make it hard to combine references, which contributes to the abundance of footnotes.
We should try to focus on secondary sources, and academic sources wherever possible. I've started removing some links and unnecessary references, and I've tried to re-arrange a little, but it needs more. Above all, we should try to lose the advocacy tone, whether for and against. I know it's hard with an article like this, but a disinterested description of what it is, plus the benefits and disadvantages, would be much easier to read. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 11:31, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
I'm having trouble confirming what we say about the DRI for choline:
The American Institute of Medicine has set the Dietary Reference Intake (DRI) of choline at 425 mg (milligrams) per day for women and 550 mg/day for men. [2]
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Can anyone see those figures in the sources we cite? SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 12:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
It says in the article "Well-planned vegan diets have been found to offer protection against obesity, heart and renal diseases, cancer, and rheumatoid arthritis." However, in one of the sources it says: "Studies of cancer have not shown clear differences in cancer rates between vegetarians and non-vegetarians." I know that one of the other sources say that there are indeed a difference, but given these contradictions and uncertainties, I think it would be appropriate to exclude cancer from the list mentioned in the article. I would also like to note that the sources commenting about the nutrition, are talking about vegetarians, which means that their conclusions may not apply to veganism. Not directly related, but I think the article should be more neutral, it feels like a one-sided promotional article. Benjaminsf ( talk) 19:36, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
It looks to me that the prominent people are only prominent in part of the english speaking world(and latin america), although i'm not really that well informed. 190.51.139.145 ( talk) 17:01, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Wikiman, what is your point here? [9] Are you arguing that vegans would oppose the drinking of human milk by human babies too? Or something else? (Also note, we don't do dictionary definitions; we use reliable sources who have written about issues.) SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 21:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
This is a term coined by those who are ex- or as they see it, 'recovered' vegans. Some members of this small, but increasingly large group describe themselves as orthorexic, or having an unhealthy obsession with the purity or righteousness of their diet. Chief among their concerns is that those who insist on dietary purity or ultra restrictuve healthfood diets, develop feelings of disgust or contempt towards those who do not follow such a dietary regime. This is a syndrome similar to those who become members of extreme religious or New Age cults. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.158.189.111 ( talk) 15:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
If this was a legitimate psychological disorder, it would be mentioned in the literature or diagnostic manuals of that field.
If it described a passionate belief opposing strict dietary purity or superiority complexes developed from such, it wouldn't indict veganism specifically.
If it described the state of being non-vegan in contrast to a vegan past, the term "ex-vegan" is more than sufficient.
The term doesn't meet Wiki's standards of legitimacy. -- 74.142.207.144 ( talk) 01:37, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
I'm encountering the problem again that has plagued this article for years, namely editors wanting to impose their personal opinion about what veganism really is. Kelly2357, strongly anti-veganism/animal welfare/rights, wants to remove that Clinton is a dietary vegan because he occasionally eats fish, even though the sources are calling the diet vegan, and the diet he's following, T. Colin Campbell's, is clearly vegan. On the other side, Xxxzenicxxx (I suspect strongly pro-vegan) has been arguing that dietary veganism isn't real veganism, and has been editing the lead to remove it from the second sentence.
Wikipedians can't add their own opinions; we just follow what the sources say. They say that there is such a thing as dietary veganism. The sources call those diets vegan even if people break them from time to time by eating something non-vegan. The situation is not black and white. Some people want it to be, but desire is not reality. All we do here is follow the sources, and use common sense. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 22:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Is the current picture for the vegan info box really the best we can do? It just looks like someone showing off some fancy vegan dish they made. I feel like something akin to vegetarianism (minus the dairy products) would be much better. I seem to recall a similar picture on this page a while back. -- MosheA ( talk) 00:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
Hello. This article's introduction, splitting veganism into "ethical" and "dietary" veganism is bunkum. I'm a vegan, and lead a vegan group, but have never heard it being split out in this way. All vegans I know (and I know many) avoid the use of animal products in any way, shape or form, whether that's food, clothing, or anything else. I wouldn't expect anything else.
I suggest you take the definition from the Vegan Society in the UK: "Promoting ways of living free from animal products for the benefit of people, animals and the environment." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.174.214 ( talk) 12:42, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Just a point to note on the ethical versus health motives. Dietary veganism may entail more than just still using animal products in clothing. For example, T. Colin Campbell has followed mostly a vegan diet since the early 1990s and done much work encouraging people onto a plant-based diet. However, he does not identify himself as a vegetarian or vegan as this infers something that he does not espouse, such as anti- vivisection. [10] There are however medical professionals, such as Neal D. Barnard, Michael Greger and Michael Klaper, who do class themselves as vegans and embrace both the health and ethical sides. Nirvana2013 ( talk) 08:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Hello. I'm the guy who posted the note above about there being no such thing as "ethical veganism".
There's clearly been a lot of discussion above about this, and the article has been reverted to stating that all vegans split into two camps: ethical and dietary.
This simply does not reflect the reality out here in the real world. I know nobody at all who calls themselves an 'ethical vegan', and I run one of the largest vegan groups in the UK. I'm really sorry if this clashes with your views, and I realise you can provide lots of sources to prove me wrong, but I'm basing my views on reality.
This article is clearly trying to set an agenda. Somebody coming to it to learn about veganism will not learn the truth, but a distorted, constructed version of the truth.
To make this clear:
Veganism: Rejecting all animal products for any purpose (from food to leather seating) Strict vegetarian: Somebody who doesn't eat meat or consume any other animal product, but sees no issue using animal products elsewhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.3.72.70 ( talk) 12:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Why is there a photograph of "Lard from pigs" on a plate in this article? How is it relevant? It seems like it was posted just to be provocative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.238.171.49 ( talk • contribs)
I changed the content of the article to correct the common mistake that veganism is a diet, when it is in fact a philosophy, and that the word "dietary veganism" is nonsensical use of vocabulary, and that "strict vegetarianism" fills that role quite fittingly.
From the wiki on Donald Watson, "founder of the Vegan Society and inventor of the word vegan." [1]:
"From his early conversion to vegetarianism, he later came to view the abstention from the use of all animal products as the logical extension of this philosophy. A committed pacifist throughout his life, he registered as a conscientious objector in the war, and faced the harshest challenges to his ethical position[5]. It was at this time that the need for a word to describe his way of life, and a society to promote its ideals, became apparent; together with his wife, Dorothy, they decided on the word ‘vegan’ by taking the first three and last two letters of "vegetarian," - "because veganism starts with vegetarianism and carries it through to its logical conclusion," and the Society was founded in 1944[2]." [2]
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan_Society >
"The Vegan Society defines veganism as "...a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose." [3]
In other words the term was precisely coined to distinguish between a vegetarian diet to a philosophy including a strict vegetarian diet, with an implicit ethical stance, seeking to exclude the use of all animal products.
Interstates ( talk) 23:28, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
I recently learned that there are people that include vegans in an eating disorder called orthorexia nervosa (those obsessed with eating healthy food). Since veganism is a philosophy - not a diet - I am hopeful that this term never ends up on Wikipedia’s veganism page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GlassLadyBug ( talk • contribs) 1 April 2011
The term "vegan" was coined in England by Donald Watson, who founded the British Vegan Society in 1944, motivation was ethical to sentient animals:
"We can see quite plainly that our present civilisation is built on the exploitation of animals, just as past civilisations were built on the exploitation of slaves, and we believe the spiritual destiny of man is such that in time he will view with abhorrence the idea that men once fed on the products of animals' bodies". ( http://ukveggie.com/vegan_news/ )
— Donald Watson, Vegan News, nº1, November 1944.
Xxxzenicxxx ( talk) 02:56, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
Images: It does not seem right the first image, it gives the false idea that veganism is just one type of food. Would be more appropriate image of a human petting a non-human animal in a sanctuary. Xxxzenicxxx ( talk) 21:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Nirvana, I'm going to restore H.Jay Dinshah to the lead and how he linked veganism to the concept of ahimsa, as that seems quite important and central to the movement, and it's what the source says. [16] SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 13:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Nirvana, can you say what you're looking to achieve with the edits? For example, I can't see the point of pointing out that vegan is the first few and last few letters of vegetarian, because it's obvious. Ethical veganism isn't just about animal products but about animal use. The vitamins subsections are part of the "vegan diet" section. Dietary veganism is about eating a plant-based diet; how strict it needs to be is an open question, as the article explains. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 18:42, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
So is honey vegan? Our best answer is 'We don’t know.' If one is concerned about doing harm to insects, it’s not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables or alternative sweeteners, since the harvesting and transportation of all crops involves some insect deaths. ... Saying that honey is a significant ethical issue brings in a range of other issues that people can easily dismiss veganism, reducto ad absurdum. Can't eat honey? Can't kill cockroaches? Can't swat mosquitoes? Squashing flies with your car is the same as eating veal? ...
And this brings us back to the original question of what is a 'vegan'? Perhaps instead of defining a vegan as 'someone who does not use animal products,' we should define a vegan as 'someone who reasonably avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans.' [19]
The original
Vegan Society defined veganism very early on as “the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals”, and now defines it as “a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose.” So it’s clear from just about the beginning, that veganism differentiates itself from vegetarianism in that it’s about avoiding exploiting animals, as opposed to just avoiding killing them.
Honey is made from human exploitation of bees. It should be as clear to anybody that honey is not vegan, as it is that eggs, milk and wool aren’t. (All four of these involve human exploitation of animal biology and behaviour without killing the animal.)
Here is the Vegan Society’s current position on honey:
http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/animals/bees-and-honey.aspx
That some vegans eat honey does not mean that honey is vegan, it means that some vegans are more lax than others in the practical application of their vegan philosophy, or that they are simply ignorant of the fact that honey is not vegan.
Enjoying honey is different from enjoying plant products whose “harvesting and transportation involves some insect deaths” in that it’s possible to raise plants without intentionally killing insects, whereas honey production intentionally exploits insects.
Taking the same logic about as far but with a little left turn, to say that using bees as pollinators in plant agriculture isn’t necessarily nonvegan, would be wrong – farmers are typically agnostic about what bees are pollinating their crop; their relationship with the bees is a kind of symbiosis rather than exploitation. —
TheHerbalGerbil(
TALK|
STALK), 13:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
I am not sure what is happening here, but from Archive 7 to Archive 15 is blank. It seems the archive system, automatic or otherwise, is not working. Nirvana2013 ( talk) 18:19, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
I've just noticed SlimVirgin has already taken this up (see here). Nirvana2013 ( talk) 18:28, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Why was my edit reverted? [20] The references say it. Nirvana2013 ( talk) 08:19, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
The way this reads is that veganism involves stopping others from using animal products rather than it being a personal endeavour. Muleattack ( talk) 01:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Hello. Me again. I'm the person who says that this article is incorrect in splitting out veganism into dietary and ethical distinctions. Well, I spent a few minutes searching Google Books for definitions of veganism, and have pasted them below. NONE OF THEM define "ethical veganism". NONE OF THEM define dietary veganism as something separate from the philosophical belief of veganism.
To be honest, I could keep searching forever and find hundreds of similar examples. But these will do for now.
Will somebody please edit this article? I would do so, but it would get reverted by the individual who believes they own this article, and who I believe is trying to set an agenda.
Here are the definitions:
"Veganism is a practical philosophy oriented toward living without directly or indirectly harming or exploiting animals and actively seeking to end that harm and exploitation where it exists."
- Cultural Encyclopedia of Vegetarianism
- Margaret Puskar-Pasewicz
"Veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle whose adherents seek to exclude the use of animals for food, clothing, or any other purpose."
- Veganism: The History, the Ethics, Nutrition, Cuisine, and Groups
- Emeline Fort
"Someone who follows a vegan diet avoids eating, drinking, wearing, using, or otherwise consuming anything that contains animal ingredients or that was tested on animals."
- Living Vegan for Dummies
- Alexandra Jamieson
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.174.214 ( talk) 12:36, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Yes I have read your text from the sources above. The other sources which seem to mention both terms are Vegetarian Times, 1989 and Sheri Lucas in Hypatia: A Journal of Feminist Philosophy. On another point and not actually my position on this matter, but perhaps this source supports the issue that other editors are having with the terms dietary/ethical veganism: Being vegan: living with conscience, conviction, and compassion (2000) by Joanne Stepaniak (page 9 and 10). Stepaniak would not like to see the meaning of the term veganism diluted in the same way as vegetarianism (i.e. the public now believe it is normal for a vegetarian to eat fish and chicken). She believes that veganism should be kept for those who follow the full philosophy. Those who only follow the diet should use the terms "total vegetarian", "pure vegetarian", "strict vegetarian" or "transitioning to veganism". Since 2000 there is a further term which has come into use which is "plant-based diet". Nirvana2013 ( talk) 08:05, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
As I wrote earlier, this article has been plagued for a long time—more than most—with the problem of editors adding their own opinions, and removing material they personally disagree with, no matter how well-sourced it is. To do that is to misunderstand what Wikipedia does. Our articles are simply supposed to document what reliable sources who have written about veganism have said, preferably secondary sources. That is, we offer an overview of the relevant literature. See our three core content policies: WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV.
We must, per WP:NPOV, offer a neutral overview of this, which means we include views that we agree and disagree with, the majority- and significant-minority views of the reliable sources. It's a violation of the neutrality and sourcing policies to remove views simply because we don't like them, or because they don't fit what we personally believe "veganism" is or ought to be. For Wikipedia, veganism is defined by the reliable sources who write about it, and we simply tell our readers what those sources have said.
As for the issue of "dietary veganism" and whether it exists, of course it does, and always has. There are committed animal rights advocates who self-identify as dietary vegans (e.g. Robert Garner, source, plus he avoids leather). To deny this is to fly in the face of significant evidence. I understand that some vegans feel dietary restrictions aren't extensive enough to earn the label "vegan," and I respect the reasoning behind that. But it's personal opinion, and it simply isn't borne out by the sources, so it's not a view Wikipedia can adopt.
We can, of course, include reliable sources who say dietary veganism isn't really veganism, if such sources exist. But that would involve the addition of a view, not the removal of the view that dietary veganism is real. SlimVirgin TALK| CONTRIBS 01:46, 11 May 2011 (UTC)