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removing false information until it is verified by the UN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.158.225.9 ( talk) 14:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
There is no report of systematic use of children by Palestinian resistance groups. RoisínDubh20 ( talk) 15:00, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
plz discuss changes in here before you rv my work. More edits are coming to clean the propaganda from this article.-- Thameen 20:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Although there are rare cases of the use of minors in the Palestine/Israeli conflict. And I'm against that of course.
But this article was written in its totality in a zionist propaganda tone to emphasize the zionist myth the Palestinians send their kids to death (and hense no problem the the Israeli ocuupation army killed around 4000 kids in Palestine).
1. The article was written with a pre-assumed notion that the use of kids by Palestinians is a fact and is wide spead.
2. The article stated what the IDF (the Israeli Army) claimed as a fact. Ignoring the fact that some of the IDF reports are fabrications or exageration as part of it propaganda war against the Palestinians.
3. There is lack of reference in many paragraphs.
4. The article failed to illustrate the miserable life the kids live due to occupation.
5. The article failed to mention the targetting of kids by the IDF and the hundreds of kids who were killed by the IDF.
Yes, fake news. RoisínDubh20 ( talk) 15:02, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
I am aware that sending children over minefields was a common tactic used by the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war (and I added that to the article), but I do not recall ever hearing of this tactic being employed by the Iraqi side. Can someone provide a cite or at least vouch for the authenticity of this claim? Perhaps some of this stuff would be best moved to Military use of children, anyway. Everyking 19:58, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
All links to statements from IDF website are currently broken since the website moved to a new server.
"The IDF does not, however, point out that since the beginning of the conflict:
Rei: This information may be true...i am not commenting on its truth. Where does this paragraph contain any information regarding child suicide bomber the subject of our article? it appears to be here for the purpose of "we said one thing that appears 'complimentary' to Israel, we must say something that does not appear so". that is not informative. this tit-for-tat behavior. 550 vs 106 dead? that is 656 too many. this is is keeping score in dead children. The desire to engage in these two behaviors are two of the reasons that I am so reluctant to engage in dialogue with others at wikipedia. 209.135.35.83 19:11, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Similarly: "* In memory of the 106 Israeli children and 550 Palestinian children killed in the Intifada
As Everyking "said" (only about one, but the prinicple applies to both) above these dont belong here either....different subject matter:
During the Iraq-Iran War ( 1980 - 1988), Iran was accused of using children to clear minefields by having them run in front of the soldiers.
-- Thameen 14:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The use of children as warriors in civil wars and tribal conflicts is vast and common.
I would question the need for this article. Might it not be better to put its content in the Suicide Bomber article or, if it's only going to be about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, under that? That way, the context is already there. Skittle, 2 November
Apart from the general problem of suicide bombing, many consider the exploition of children by brainwashing for fataly dangerous activitie as a form of child abuse. MathKnight 13:35, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Viajero, don't you consider exploitation as some sort of abuse? A specially when the result of the exploitation can be a dead child? Secondly, as you can see - there are indeed people who consider the exploitation of kids for suicide bombings as a form of abuse. Thirdly, I think it well help to clear issues if you say what "abuse" include according to your views. MathKnight 10:56, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Reference from the Shin Bet report:
בלילה שבין ה – 23 ל- 24 אפריל 2002 ניסו שלושה ילדים פלסטינים, תלמידי בית ספר מעזה, לחדור לישוב נצרים על מנת לבצע פיגוע התאבדות בישוב. השלושה הם אסמעיל צבח אברהים אבו נדא בן 12, איל עאזי מצטפא חמארנה בן 13 ויוסף באסם יוסף זקות בן 14. השלושה נורו על ידי כוח צה"ל בשעה שניסו לחדור לישוב. באתר האינטרנט של תנועת החמאס פורסם ב – 24 אפריל 2002 כי השלושה אשר נשלחו על ידי החמא"ס, השתייכו למסגד בשכונת שיח' רדואן בעזה, וכי באמצעות פעילויותיהם המיוחדות הצליחו להרכיב מקרבם חולייה והחליטו לנהל ג'האד נגד היהודים. הנערים השאירו למשפחותיהם צוואות בהן הדגישו את רצונם במות קדושים והוציאו לפועל את החלטתם. על אחת הגופות נמצאו גרזן ומגזרי תיל לחיתוך הגדר.
Translation:
In the night between the 23rd and 24th of April 2002, three Palestinian childrem, Gaza school pupils, to infilitrate to Netzarim settlement in order to commit suicide attack. The three were: Ibrahim Abu Nada (12), Ill Azi Mustafa Hamarna (13) and Yosef Basem Yosef Zakut (14). The three were shot by IDF force while attempting to infilitrate the settlement. The Hamas website published on April 24, 2004, that the three - which were sent by Hamas - were belonged to a mosque in Sheikh Raduan neigbourhood in Gaza, and via their special activities they succeeded in composing a cell among them and decided to wage a Jihad against the Jews. The children left the families last wills in whom they emphasysed their will in "Shuada" (martyrdom's death) and executed their decision. An axe and wire-cutters were found over one of the bodies.
If someone claim otherwise, please provide proper citation. MathKnight 22:04, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Reading the report, no. In the begining, the report devided the terrorist attacks into 3 types: suicide bombing, shooting attacks and Qassam rocket attacks. Since the phenomana of stone throwing is vast and under reported by most media - about 300 kids who throwed stone is very very very low number, far beyond reason and amount of pictures depicting childrem throwing stones. Therefore, the commant: However Shabak include rock-throwing as a form of terrorism was removed. MathKnight
Hey guys! I have noted and removed the word terrorism several times here, as it carries heavy connotations and undermines NPOV in this case. I am sure that this conversation has happened many times before, and there is an unresolved wiki policy being formulated on the matter.. For here and now, could we use alternate language that conveys the disgusting practices of targeting civilians? Otherwise, I hope that those who use the term are sufficiently clear-minded to define Israeli war crimes against the Palestinian civilian population (e.g., Collective punishment) as terrorism. Tarek 21:38, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
then there should be no POV problem, such the definition regarding the tactics and not the motives. MathKnight 22:22, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)a deliberate targeting of civilians (i.e. intensionaly trying to kill civilians) in pursuit of a religious\national\political goal
Tag removed.
MathKnight 17:30, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why would failed suicide bombers not be suicide bombers? Is there something that supports your contention? Jayjg (talk) 22:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Another factual error - On June 15, The Israeli Shin Bet (SHABAK) arrested a Palestinian terrorist cell in Nablus. The cell included eight members, four of them were child suicide bombers. The cell was directed and funded by the Fatah's Tanzim branch and Lebanese group Hizbullah. It was involved in May child terrorists attacks. [43] [1]) -- Irishpunktom\ talk 11:15, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of becoming the resident "links pain in the butt" - the links on this page are really poor. Geocities pages, links to a blog, pictures claiming to be kids dressed as suicide bombers that aren't - just poor quality.
I've deleted some - and will try to pick up the rest. I'm not even claiming POV here - they're just crappy links.
I'm not against goecities or blogs per se but I think they need to be treated a lot more carefully than more extablished journalistic (or even pressure group) sites, and those which are not single issue. I'd way rather see a link to the BBC (or better yest Reuters) than to www.geocities.com/StopTheChildmurdering. I hope we all agree on this.
My guess is that will start a storm from the usual suspects - so can we discuss here before starting a "revert war". My line is that I've tried to take out the weakest links <G> and if they need reinstated then we could try to justify why they are relevant to the atrticle rather than assuming that anything vaguely on topic should be there and justifying it being removed (ie a link earns it place because it's a high quality link - irrespective of POV?) - does this sound reasonable?
62.253.64.15 18:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Anyone object to BBC link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm ? 62.253.64.15 20:03, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Adding http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3899015.stm revealing interview with a (failed) suicide bomber. 62.253.64.15 20:24, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15979 - is a long but thought provoking piece from the NY review of books. Notable for a section at the end talking about Hamas being heavily criticised by ordinary Palestinians. Not so sympathetic to either the Israeli or the suicide bombers positions - my guess is that the author broadly supports the Palestinian Cause - but does cite AI that Suicide Bombing is a "crime against humanity". 62.253.64.15 20:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone has decided to almost completly rewrite the article to make it more pov. I'm sorry but the previous version was infinitely more acceptable. A revert is in order.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I have provided samples of your pov and irrelavant additions, there is not reason to go over every single one, since that is the only thing you are adding. I would be one thing if you were actually adding anything the least bit positive to the article, but since you aren't, a reversion is clearly the prudent thing to do.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I have read the above discussion and I found that at many points some editors has suggested that the background on which these rare incidents happened be explain. This request was denied and removed from the article on the grounds that it is irrelevant, which is the same reason why Moshe has been aggresively RV my edits.
I think it is of paramount importance that we put a section on the background of these children and the situations, bot social and psychologically, in which they have got involved as alleged by the occupation army (i e the IDF)
In this section we need to mention
-- Thameen 14:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a background section. Now this article is coming close to being NPOV and not a zionist propaganda. Plz your edits.
-- Thameen 15:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Your edits are approaching disruption, please desist.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 15:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Describing the "atmospshere" is usually just a way to justify the attacks. It is irrelevant to the subject of the article and would be considered a red herring.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 17:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem regarding reference and citation in this article. Many reference links do not work. Some link to Hebrew language sites.
Plz who ever added these links to repair them and replace the Hebrew links with English ones.
If these links are not repaired, I suggest we remove them.
-- Thameen 14:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Links to other language websites are actually allowed.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 15:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
-- Thameen 15:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Sami Hamdan is not a minor. He was 21 years old when he carried his attack. [2]. The IDF made a mistake by identifying him as 17. I'm going to remove this incident.-- Thameen 15:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you think the article needs clean up?
I do. I think it looks like an unorganised list in much of its content. I feel we need to organize it.
The overview is fine. I think this is the part that recieved much atention.
But the yearly incidents are wrote in a monotone and are thus long and tiring to read.
What are your suggestions?
I suggest we make short lists. Like a list for the documented suicide attacks, with name, age, and place and so on. a concise list.
And a list of the anual incidents. But written in a concise manner.-- Thameen 16:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
From the Jewish Virtual Library [3]
That source is not up to date.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 16:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
In some places in the lists, it was mentioned that minors were arrested at check points carring IED or pipe bombs. It is known that the minors were more involved as carriers than as bombers due to the general Palestinian resentment of using minors as bombers.
We need to define well this issue. when an arrested minor carrying explosives can be defined as a suicide bomber?
For example in a 2005 incidents the article write
The reference, which is Yidioot ahranoot English Version, reports;
The newspaper does not mention suicide attack. Nor there is any evidence which may make the wiki editor who wrote this think it was a suicide attack.
how can we handle sections? ideas plz.
-- Thameen 17:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the "Incidents in 2006" section. (Note, in the interests of full disclosure: Thameen left a note to me on my talk page asking me to look at the article. My decision to remove, however, is based on my own judgement.) The contents of the removed section are below:
On 17 April, 2006, Sami Hammad, a 21-year-old Palestinian carried out suicide attack in Tel Aviv killing 10 and wounding 70 people. There have been unconfirmed reports (and as of April 17, the Israeli Broadcasting Authority has been stating) that Hammad was only sixteen-years-old. [5]
The link given for reference is a deadlink, and while I find a number of mentions of Sami Hammad online, none of them refer to him as anything other than unambiguously 21 years of age--even googling 'Sami Hammad 16' produces nothing. Unless someone can find a current source making the claim that he was 16 (the "as of April 17" makes it seem like this might have been a preliminary report based on incomplete information), I believe this section should stay out of the article. -- Robth Talk Cleanup? 03:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Until I can fund the original haaretz article I am okay with you solution.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Considering this articles opening paragraph maintains the article relates to "minors who commit or try to commit suicide attacks.", the moving of the page is a logical one. -- Irishpunktom\ talk 16:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following passage as original research.
Cherry picking the worst statements out of the textbooks is original research; presenting them as typical is a lie and so is misrepresenting them by taking them out of context. The second quote is from a poem and is not meant to be taken literally! This is a big fat lie.
I read the source myself and it does not say this at all. This section is also a lie. Deuterium 10:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, the source itself is not a WP:RS; the whole section should be removed. Deuterium 10:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
There's a recent movie called Suicide Killers on this subject. We already have an article on The Making of A Martyr. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 22:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
This article falsely claims that researchers find no incitement to palestinian textbooks. yes, they do.The maps of Palesitne ther eshow no Israel but just occasionally the Green line. None of the maps show Israel. the Palestinian textbooks do incite violence. The proof that supports my claim is endless.-Dendoi Monday, May 7, 2007
Or "Minors as Suicide Bombers" or something to that effect. When I went to this article I was expecting to see small children (like the little girl in the photo), but the youngest bomber was 16. I'm not a terrorist sympathizer trying to whitewash the situation, by the way, I just think the title is misleading and possibly POV-pushing. Childe Roland of Gilead 10:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with User:El C in principal about his objection to including that are not broadly relevant to the topic, although I don't know wheter the link in question is objectionable. Otherwise we risk having editors add every link under the sun pertaining to the subject of the article.
The title of this article makes its content an indictment against the use of children in suicide bombing. I find the practice as reprehensible as anyone could, but this article is a misuse of Wikipedia. Is there an article "Adult suicide bombers in the..." or "Child victims of Israeli military strikes"? Xiao t 19:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia,
I feel it is not quite accurate to refer to these suicide bombers as 'Child'.
A child is a person between birth and puberty.
The average age of these bombers seems to be approximately 15 years, an age at which a large majority of 'children' have achieved puberty.
I feel that these adolescents have beeen re-labelled as 'children' for propaganda purposes.
While I do not approve of suicide bombing, especially by adolescents, neither do I approve of propaganda or sensationalism. The latter is stock in trade for the newspaper industry.
I think you should re-think the title of this article. The word 'child' in this context conjures up a picture of a 10 year old. Clearly this is not the case with young suicide bombers. Wikipedia is by no means a newspaper and should avoid falling into the trap of sensationalism.
Yours sincerely
Mutandis —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Mutandis ( talk • contribs)
I replaced the book cover image with an image of 16-year-old suicide bomber Aamer Alfar.
For one thing, the use of a book cover to illustrate a subject other than the book itself appears to violate WP:NFC ("uses that would almost certainly not be fair use ... 2. An image of a rose, cropped from an image of a record album jacket, used to illustrate an article on roses.", etc)
For another, the image showed a very young girl while all of the actual child suicide bombers have been young adults, "children" in a legal and possibly moral sense but not nearly as young as this child. The image I posted gives a better idea of your typical child suicide bomber.
Eleland 12:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
An article about child suicide bombers does not need a section about television programs, especially when the term "suicide bomber" or a variant doesn't appear anywhere in it. The implicit justification for this section's inclusion would seem to be the idea that any talk of "resistance", "jihad", or "martyrdom" equates to "suicide bombing", but this claim is not even made by the biased and discredited source available. In other words, it's WP:OR#SYN. Furthermore, the only specific claims about the content of this program come from one highly partisan source which has been caught promulgating misleading or outright fabricated "translations" of Arabic sources, and in fact has already been exposed completely reversing the meaning of some of the quotations we're using! In other words, it totally fails WP:RS.
Very similar issues apply to the section on textbooks. The one specific reference to suicide bombing in this section does not actually appear in the cited source (which is another far-right Israeli propaganda shop anyway). This source seems to make the duplicitous and equivocating implication that "shahada", or "martyrdom", equals "suicide bombing", when in fact Palestinians apply the term to all persons on their side who are killed by Israel, even foreign peace activists or sympathetic journalists. We might just as well claim that American children are being taught to shoot bombs and rockets when they learn "The Star-Spangled Banner". These wild claims of MEMRI and PMW are amplified and then passed on as if they are credible, when the very next paragraphs cite studies by genuine media study groups which completely demolish them. In other words, it's WP:UNDUE weight and WP:OR#SYN.
Eleland 01:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone going to discuss this? I've been told that the antidote to a revert war is to seek consensus on the talk page, but, there doesn't seem to be any substantive discussion by those favoring keeping the TV and textbooks sections. Some of the recently added material on psychology is a lot more relevant, although I think the excerpts and summary are a little selectively slanted. If y'all think it's a good idea, I'll work on a "Recruitment and indoctrination" section to replace the current "indoctrinating children" section; there is now at least some relevant material amid all the unreliable / irrelevant stuff. Eleland 16:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Stop inserting the cover scan of "Dying to Kill". This image violates WP:NONFREE as I have already explained. Its inclusion is disallowed by policy. (I have issues with the relevance and implications, but that's not necessary to discuss, since WP:NONFREE already demolishes it.) Since it's used nowhere else I'm going to try and have it deleted entirely. Eleland 12:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
According to Vamik Volkan, an American psychiatrist who has studied the issue, "Most suicide bombers in the Middle East are chosen as teenagers, 'educated,' and then sent off to perform their duty when they are in their late teens or early to mid-twenties." Volkan finds "little difficulty in finding young men interested in becoming suicide bombers in Gaza and the West Bank. Repeated actual and expected events humiliate youngsters and interfere with their adaptive identifications with their parents because their parents are humiliated as well." Volkan gives the examples of beatings, torture, or the loss of a parent as typical humiliating events which might make a young person more susceptible to recruitment for suicide terrorism.
Once recruited, children and teenagers are encouraged to cut off contact with "real world" affairs and subjected to an intense program of memorization and repetition of the Qur'an. According to Volkan, "their readings are carefully selected. The 'teachers' also supply sacred sounding, but meaningless, phrases to be repeated over and over in chant ... These kinds of mystical sayings combined with selected verses from the Quran help to create a 'different internal world' for the 'students.'"
The practice of recruiting minors for suicide bombings is generally not supported by Palestinian society, citation needed however, some individuals have spoken out in favor of it. Umm Nidal, who sent three of her sons, including one 17 year old, on suicide attacks, said "I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest." She was later elected to the Palestinian legislature on the Hamas ticket. [2] According to Human Rights Watch, "Major Palestinian armed groups, including Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Islamic Jihad, and Hamas, have publicly disavowed the use of children in military operations, but those stated policies have not always been implemented. Some leaders, including representatives of Islamic Jihad and Hamas, have said that they consider children of 16 to be adults. International law defines a child as any person under the age of eighteen ... Israeli government policy in the Occupied Territories defines Palestinians under the age of 16 as minors." [3]
Said the mother of 16-year-old Aamer Alfar, the youngest Palestinian to commit a suicide bombing, "God will curse those who recruited Amar. I had heard the stories about recruiting children in Nablus but I didn't think they were true... Yes, it is difficult here for everyone because of the occupation, and life in Nablus is intolerable, but children should not be exploited in this way."
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The TV section claims that Farfur (the terror mouse) "calls for Muslim world domination, encouraging children to say that they will "shoot", "annihilate the Jews", and "commit martyrdom."". It's sourced to a translation from MEMRI.
The translation has been exposed as fraudulent. MEMRI translated "excellence in the world" to "mastery of the world", put "I will shoot" in the kid's mouth when the mouse said it, translated "the Jews are (killing/shooting) us" as "we will annihilate the Jews", and "i will be martyred" as "i will commit martyrdom". This comes
It's very sad that Hamas TV created a childrens' show which appeared to encourage hard-line attitudes towards armed struggle among young children, but it has nothing to do with child suicide bombers. The whole section should be removed. Failing that, it should simply say there was a Hamas TV show through which children were encouraged to approve of fighting Israel, and that somebody accused it of promoting child suicide bombers -- and that's ONLY if you can actually find a reference where somebody accuses it of promoting child suicide bombers!
The textbooks section has now been systematically altered to remove the numerous credible academic sources which found no incitement to violence in P.A. textbooks. Even in its highly biased, propagandistic state, it makes no mention of child suicide bombing. The one statement that comes closest is "Palestinian textbooks have been accused of inciting Palestinian children to commit violence or terrorism," but this isn't even sourced. If a source can be found which specifically accuses the Palestinian education system of promoting child suicide bombers (and it doesn't violate WP:UNDUE, so I'm not talking about somebody's tiny blog site), then this one line could be kept. The rest should go.
Eleland 15:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I strongly suggest that the editors who keep reinserting this image spend some time over at Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Images and see why the image cannot be used in this manner, specifically the "Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)" line It may be used in an article on the book, but not in an article about child suicide bombers. I'm not a big fan of these new image restrictions either, as I personally prefer to see album covers in music discographies. But if they're going to insist on applying this policy, the I will insist that it is applied uniformly across the Wikipedia. Tarc 13:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Fine. Zeq 19:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
"It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of book covers to illustrate an article discussing the book in question qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Other use of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, might be copyright infringement."
However if you read the cited source, Volkan talks about the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the resultant atmosphere of fear, insecurity, and humiliation, creating "identity cracks" and also about Nazi child-rearing practices, denying normal affection, and says these could create cracks as well. He actually compares the sum-total of the situation (Israeli occupation, radical Palestinian indoctrination) to the Nazi environment. Currently the phrasing seems to equate Palestinian terrorism to the Holocaust.
In addition, Volkan begins the article by talking about psychological trauma he observed in victims of Israeli-enabled massacres of Palestinians, and how this led him to some of his current theories. Why has this comparison, which is actually more prominent in the text, been overlooked, while the Nazi comparison is kept? Is it part of a systematic effort to make this article as damning of Palestinians as possible?
Eleland 19:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Zeq 19:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
That "martyr" photo does not belong in the intro. Please move it where it was in the text describing his "heroism" and in the future try to resist urges to turn a WP article into a Hamas poster. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Child suicide bombers are more global than just Israel/Palestine. They're also in Afghanistan ( [11], [12]) and Pakistan ( [13] [14]) This article should be moved to a more general "Child suicide bombers". Any good reasons to oppose this move? If not, I'll make a request to move the page. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 16:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
As all article, this should require some secondary sources analyses to be neutral. With only primary sources, it is factual but looks like a little bit non neutral because orientated. Good history and good journalism requires comments. Comments require secondary sources. Alithien 10:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
As I have said repeatedly: neither section has anything to do with child suicide bombings. Furthermore, the TV section relies on a bogus translation from a shady Israeli group, and the textbooks section has been systematically altered, censoring the repeated findings of credible academics that PA textbooks do not contain incitement. (Replacing it with some garbage from Hillary Clinton, who has less than zero credibility on this issue.)
I'm removing the sections again. I don't want to see anything added unless reliable sources actually link the content to child suicide bombing. Eleland 14:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The Volkan article is about all suicide bombers,not child suicide bombers, and should be quoted, if at all, in the parent article. Incidentally, the Nazi reference is gratuitous, and detracts heavily from the article. As it usually does. Hornplease 19:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Based on policy, virtually the entire "indoctrination" section should be expunged; it is a highly POV summary of discredited information which does not relate to the subject, and it is written in the most prejudicial, misleading, and disingenuous fashion imaginable. This being said, the information from "Palestine Media Watch" (a Zionist astroturf organization designed to make Palestinians look evil) and Hillary f'ing Clinton of all people is especially undesirable. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the woman has any standing on this issue or that she knows anything about the issues; clearly her statements are for political reasons which are too obvious and unfortunate to discuss. The removal of this information was absolutely correct and the subsequent reversions were totally unjustified. Eleland 01:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm actually not sure why this is being removed. We have good refs: two articles from major media sources and a report from a media watch organization. Also, in proportion to the whole article it is a small section. Bigglove 01:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the cites that is repeatedly being removed is from the Jerusalem Post. Are you saying it is ok to remove that cite? Bigglove 02:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I see no justification for removing the Palestinian Media Watch report. It seems to be well-researched. If there are other reports that reach different conclusions, that's fine, mention all the reports. If there are reliable sources that critique specific facts or citations in the PMW report, that's fine, cite those too. As for Hillary Clinton, she is prominent enough to warrant a mention of her views. She is not the focus of the article. 6SJ7 04:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
PMW mostly collects Arab press publication so they are not a source by themself. It is well researched. It is scholarly. It is indeed not fully NPOV (i.e. it collects mostly what fit their agenda) but this is where wikipedia can do better: Include materail from many sources - each is somewhat POV but brought together this become NPOV. So do your homework and find sources instead of just removing sources found by other people. Zeq 09:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The current argument over PMW is leaving out a highly salient fact - that an earlier version made it clear that the textbook accusations were partisan nonsense, by actually reporting what neutral academics said, rather than just reporting that they said something. For example:
Ruth Firer of the Harry S. Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Sami Adwan, a professor of education at Bethlehem University in Bethlehem compared Palestinian and Israeli textbooks in 2002. Of the Palestinian textbooks they found that "The books portray Jews throughout history in a positive manner and avoid negative stereotypes. However, according to the everyday experience of Palestinians, modern-day Israelis are presented as occupiers. The texts include examples of Israelis killing and imprisoning Palestinians, demolishing their homes, uprooting fruit trees, and confiscating their lands and building settlements on them. The texts also talk about the right of return for the 1948 Palestinian refugees when describing how those refugees live in camps." The Israeli textbooks, on the other hand don't even mention Palestinians "The Palestinians, as such, are not found in any of the three types of primary-level textbooks." Disputed territory is presented as being part of Israel: "Many of the chapters describe "the good land," sometimes called "our birthplace" or "homeland" ("moledet" in Hebrew), and include photos of places that are in the PNA or are in dispute between the two nations (i.e., East Jerusalem). They are presented without the national-political debate, and as naturally belonging to the Israeli state."[14]
This is just a sample; the other studied came up with much the same. Denial indeed. Eleland 16:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//547015
-- Jaakobou Chalk Talk 03:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Per the discussion at the AfD, I would like to formally propose that we rename this article to Suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and write a good, reliably source, not WP:OR article on the subject that includes some of the information already in this article. Any takers? Tiamut 02:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
What the hey it's been almost a year since this thing was basically abandoned. I've gone ahead and made various proposed changes in line with relevant sources and core content policies. If you have any objections I'd appreciate discussion. If you must revert me please consider reverting only those specific edits you disagree with rather than a wholesale rollback. Cheers, < eleland/ talk edits> 07:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
This article lists Ayat al-Akhras as a child suicide bomber. She was eighteen, an adult. While she was technically still a "teenager", I don't think she should be considered a child suicide bomber. -- 2602:304:6F76:2CB9:68C4:F7F5:A290:5A96 ( talk) 20:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
In the last line of the baby suicide bomber section; the following line can be found: "Other photos of children dressed up as terrorists have been published since then".
So what is "dressed up like terrorists"? You are not considering the Palestinians' Freedom Fighting RIGHT!!!
This is very POV and completely Israeli side story telling. Even wikipedia is completely taking israeli side. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.129.60.214 ( talk) 23:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
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82.14.99.113 ( talk) 07:37, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
This page must be removed, it is completely false and is clearly promoting terrorist activities which have no reliable sources to confirm it.
Would something like Child suicide bombing in Palestine be an improvement or cause too large a drop in precision? I feel the detail can be elaborated in-text. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:30, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
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Please remove the following paragraph:
"At the height of the phenomenon, Avraham Burg, former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel, speaker of Israel's Knesset and interim President of Israel, stated his view that, given Israeli indifference to the tortured lives of Palestinian children under occupation, suicide bombings come as no surprise. [4]"
The paragraph gives undue weight to an opinion that practically justifies Palestinian suicide bombers. The opinion does not represent the majority Israeli opinion, but an opinion of a politician who is considered a radical leftist. The paragraph gives undue weight to a fringe opinion. 2A0D:6FC0:6E5:2F00:354E:3006:9087:2E1D ( talk) 15:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
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Proposed changes:
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removing false information until it is verified by the UN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.158.225.9 ( talk) 14:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
There is no report of systematic use of children by Palestinian resistance groups. RoisínDubh20 ( talk) 15:00, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
plz discuss changes in here before you rv my work. More edits are coming to clean the propaganda from this article.-- Thameen 20:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Although there are rare cases of the use of minors in the Palestine/Israeli conflict. And I'm against that of course.
But this article was written in its totality in a zionist propaganda tone to emphasize the zionist myth the Palestinians send their kids to death (and hense no problem the the Israeli ocuupation army killed around 4000 kids in Palestine).
1. The article was written with a pre-assumed notion that the use of kids by Palestinians is a fact and is wide spead.
2. The article stated what the IDF (the Israeli Army) claimed as a fact. Ignoring the fact that some of the IDF reports are fabrications or exageration as part of it propaganda war against the Palestinians.
3. There is lack of reference in many paragraphs.
4. The article failed to illustrate the miserable life the kids live due to occupation.
5. The article failed to mention the targetting of kids by the IDF and the hundreds of kids who were killed by the IDF.
Yes, fake news. RoisínDubh20 ( talk) 15:02, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
I am aware that sending children over minefields was a common tactic used by the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war (and I added that to the article), but I do not recall ever hearing of this tactic being employed by the Iraqi side. Can someone provide a cite or at least vouch for the authenticity of this claim? Perhaps some of this stuff would be best moved to Military use of children, anyway. Everyking 19:58, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)
All links to statements from IDF website are currently broken since the website moved to a new server.
"The IDF does not, however, point out that since the beginning of the conflict:
Rei: This information may be true...i am not commenting on its truth. Where does this paragraph contain any information regarding child suicide bomber the subject of our article? it appears to be here for the purpose of "we said one thing that appears 'complimentary' to Israel, we must say something that does not appear so". that is not informative. this tit-for-tat behavior. 550 vs 106 dead? that is 656 too many. this is is keeping score in dead children. The desire to engage in these two behaviors are two of the reasons that I am so reluctant to engage in dialogue with others at wikipedia. 209.135.35.83 19:11, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Similarly: "* In memory of the 106 Israeli children and 550 Palestinian children killed in the Intifada
As Everyking "said" (only about one, but the prinicple applies to both) above these dont belong here either....different subject matter:
During the Iraq-Iran War ( 1980 - 1988), Iran was accused of using children to clear minefields by having them run in front of the soldiers.
-- Thameen 14:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
The use of children as warriors in civil wars and tribal conflicts is vast and common.
I would question the need for this article. Might it not be better to put its content in the Suicide Bomber article or, if it's only going to be about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, under that? That way, the context is already there. Skittle, 2 November
Apart from the general problem of suicide bombing, many consider the exploition of children by brainwashing for fataly dangerous activitie as a form of child abuse. MathKnight 13:35, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Viajero, don't you consider exploitation as some sort of abuse? A specially when the result of the exploitation can be a dead child? Secondly, as you can see - there are indeed people who consider the exploitation of kids for suicide bombings as a form of abuse. Thirdly, I think it well help to clear issues if you say what "abuse" include according to your views. MathKnight 10:56, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Reference from the Shin Bet report:
בלילה שבין ה – 23 ל- 24 אפריל 2002 ניסו שלושה ילדים פלסטינים, תלמידי בית ספר מעזה, לחדור לישוב נצרים על מנת לבצע פיגוע התאבדות בישוב. השלושה הם אסמעיל צבח אברהים אבו נדא בן 12, איל עאזי מצטפא חמארנה בן 13 ויוסף באסם יוסף זקות בן 14. השלושה נורו על ידי כוח צה"ל בשעה שניסו לחדור לישוב. באתר האינטרנט של תנועת החמאס פורסם ב – 24 אפריל 2002 כי השלושה אשר נשלחו על ידי החמא"ס, השתייכו למסגד בשכונת שיח' רדואן בעזה, וכי באמצעות פעילויותיהם המיוחדות הצליחו להרכיב מקרבם חולייה והחליטו לנהל ג'האד נגד היהודים. הנערים השאירו למשפחותיהם צוואות בהן הדגישו את רצונם במות קדושים והוציאו לפועל את החלטתם. על אחת הגופות נמצאו גרזן ומגזרי תיל לחיתוך הגדר.
Translation:
In the night between the 23rd and 24th of April 2002, three Palestinian childrem, Gaza school pupils, to infilitrate to Netzarim settlement in order to commit suicide attack. The three were: Ibrahim Abu Nada (12), Ill Azi Mustafa Hamarna (13) and Yosef Basem Yosef Zakut (14). The three were shot by IDF force while attempting to infilitrate the settlement. The Hamas website published on April 24, 2004, that the three - which were sent by Hamas - were belonged to a mosque in Sheikh Raduan neigbourhood in Gaza, and via their special activities they succeeded in composing a cell among them and decided to wage a Jihad against the Jews. The children left the families last wills in whom they emphasysed their will in "Shuada" (martyrdom's death) and executed their decision. An axe and wire-cutters were found over one of the bodies.
If someone claim otherwise, please provide proper citation. MathKnight 22:04, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Reading the report, no. In the begining, the report devided the terrorist attacks into 3 types: suicide bombing, shooting attacks and Qassam rocket attacks. Since the phenomana of stone throwing is vast and under reported by most media - about 300 kids who throwed stone is very very very low number, far beyond reason and amount of pictures depicting childrem throwing stones. Therefore, the commant: However Shabak include rock-throwing as a form of terrorism was removed. MathKnight
Hey guys! I have noted and removed the word terrorism several times here, as it carries heavy connotations and undermines NPOV in this case. I am sure that this conversation has happened many times before, and there is an unresolved wiki policy being formulated on the matter.. For here and now, could we use alternate language that conveys the disgusting practices of targeting civilians? Otherwise, I hope that those who use the term are sufficiently clear-minded to define Israeli war crimes against the Palestinian civilian population (e.g., Collective punishment) as terrorism. Tarek 21:38, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
then there should be no POV problem, such the definition regarding the tactics and not the motives. MathKnight 22:22, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)a deliberate targeting of civilians (i.e. intensionaly trying to kill civilians) in pursuit of a religious\national\political goal
Tag removed.
MathKnight 17:30, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why would failed suicide bombers not be suicide bombers? Is there something that supports your contention? Jayjg (talk) 22:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Another factual error - On June 15, The Israeli Shin Bet (SHABAK) arrested a Palestinian terrorist cell in Nablus. The cell included eight members, four of them were child suicide bombers. The cell was directed and funded by the Fatah's Tanzim branch and Lebanese group Hizbullah. It was involved in May child terrorists attacks. [43] [1]) -- Irishpunktom\ talk 11:15, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
At the risk of becoming the resident "links pain in the butt" - the links on this page are really poor. Geocities pages, links to a blog, pictures claiming to be kids dressed as suicide bombers that aren't - just poor quality.
I've deleted some - and will try to pick up the rest. I'm not even claiming POV here - they're just crappy links.
I'm not against goecities or blogs per se but I think they need to be treated a lot more carefully than more extablished journalistic (or even pressure group) sites, and those which are not single issue. I'd way rather see a link to the BBC (or better yest Reuters) than to www.geocities.com/StopTheChildmurdering. I hope we all agree on this.
My guess is that will start a storm from the usual suspects - so can we discuss here before starting a "revert war". My line is that I've tried to take out the weakest links <G> and if they need reinstated then we could try to justify why they are relevant to the atrticle rather than assuming that anything vaguely on topic should be there and justifying it being removed (ie a link earns it place because it's a high quality link - irrespective of POV?) - does this sound reasonable?
62.253.64.15 18:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Anyone object to BBC link http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm ? 62.253.64.15 20:03, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Adding http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3899015.stm revealing interview with a (failed) suicide bomber. 62.253.64.15 20:24, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/15979 - is a long but thought provoking piece from the NY review of books. Notable for a section at the end talking about Hamas being heavily criticised by ordinary Palestinians. Not so sympathetic to either the Israeli or the suicide bombers positions - my guess is that the author broadly supports the Palestinian Cause - but does cite AI that Suicide Bombing is a "crime against humanity". 62.253.64.15 20:36, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
Someone has decided to almost completly rewrite the article to make it more pov. I'm sorry but the previous version was infinitely more acceptable. A revert is in order.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:54, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I have provided samples of your pov and irrelavant additions, there is not reason to go over every single one, since that is the only thing you are adding. I would be one thing if you were actually adding anything the least bit positive to the article, but since you aren't, a reversion is clearly the prudent thing to do.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 18:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I have read the above discussion and I found that at many points some editors has suggested that the background on which these rare incidents happened be explain. This request was denied and removed from the article on the grounds that it is irrelevant, which is the same reason why Moshe has been aggresively RV my edits.
I think it is of paramount importance that we put a section on the background of these children and the situations, bot social and psychologically, in which they have got involved as alleged by the occupation army (i e the IDF)
In this section we need to mention
-- Thameen 14:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I added a background section. Now this article is coming close to being NPOV and not a zionist propaganda. Plz your edits.
-- Thameen 15:48, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Your edits are approaching disruption, please desist.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 15:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Describing the "atmospshere" is usually just a way to justify the attacks. It is irrelevant to the subject of the article and would be considered a red herring.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 17:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem regarding reference and citation in this article. Many reference links do not work. Some link to Hebrew language sites.
Plz who ever added these links to repair them and replace the Hebrew links with English ones.
If these links are not repaired, I suggest we remove them.
-- Thameen 14:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Links to other language websites are actually allowed.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 15:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
-- Thameen 15:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Sami Hamdan is not a minor. He was 21 years old when he carried his attack. [2]. The IDF made a mistake by identifying him as 17. I'm going to remove this incident.-- Thameen 15:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Do you think the article needs clean up?
I do. I think it looks like an unorganised list in much of its content. I feel we need to organize it.
The overview is fine. I think this is the part that recieved much atention.
But the yearly incidents are wrote in a monotone and are thus long and tiring to read.
What are your suggestions?
I suggest we make short lists. Like a list for the documented suicide attacks, with name, age, and place and so on. a concise list.
And a list of the anual incidents. But written in a concise manner.-- Thameen 16:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
From the Jewish Virtual Library [3]
That source is not up to date.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 16:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
In some places in the lists, it was mentioned that minors were arrested at check points carring IED or pipe bombs. It is known that the minors were more involved as carriers than as bombers due to the general Palestinian resentment of using minors as bombers.
We need to define well this issue. when an arrested minor carrying explosives can be defined as a suicide bomber?
For example in a 2005 incidents the article write
The reference, which is Yidioot ahranoot English Version, reports;
The newspaper does not mention suicide attack. Nor there is any evidence which may make the wiki editor who wrote this think it was a suicide attack.
how can we handle sections? ideas plz.
-- Thameen 17:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the "Incidents in 2006" section. (Note, in the interests of full disclosure: Thameen left a note to me on my talk page asking me to look at the article. My decision to remove, however, is based on my own judgement.) The contents of the removed section are below:
On 17 April, 2006, Sami Hammad, a 21-year-old Palestinian carried out suicide attack in Tel Aviv killing 10 and wounding 70 people. There have been unconfirmed reports (and as of April 17, the Israeli Broadcasting Authority has been stating) that Hammad was only sixteen-years-old. [5]
The link given for reference is a deadlink, and while I find a number of mentions of Sami Hammad online, none of them refer to him as anything other than unambiguously 21 years of age--even googling 'Sami Hammad 16' produces nothing. Unless someone can find a current source making the claim that he was 16 (the "as of April 17" makes it seem like this might have been a preliminary report based on incomplete information), I believe this section should stay out of the article. -- Robth Talk Cleanup? 03:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Until I can fund the original haaretz article I am okay with you solution.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:37, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Considering this articles opening paragraph maintains the article relates to "minors who commit or try to commit suicide attacks.", the moving of the page is a logical one. -- Irishpunktom\ talk 16:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the following passage as original research.
Cherry picking the worst statements out of the textbooks is original research; presenting them as typical is a lie and so is misrepresenting them by taking them out of context. The second quote is from a poem and is not meant to be taken literally! This is a big fat lie.
I read the source myself and it does not say this at all. This section is also a lie. Deuterium 10:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, the source itself is not a WP:RS; the whole section should be removed. Deuterium 10:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
There's a recent movie called Suicide Killers on this subject. We already have an article on The Making of A Martyr. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 22:08, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
This article falsely claims that researchers find no incitement to palestinian textbooks. yes, they do.The maps of Palesitne ther eshow no Israel but just occasionally the Green line. None of the maps show Israel. the Palestinian textbooks do incite violence. The proof that supports my claim is endless.-Dendoi Monday, May 7, 2007
Or "Minors as Suicide Bombers" or something to that effect. When I went to this article I was expecting to see small children (like the little girl in the photo), but the youngest bomber was 16. I'm not a terrorist sympathizer trying to whitewash the situation, by the way, I just think the title is misleading and possibly POV-pushing. Childe Roland of Gilead 10:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with User:El C in principal about his objection to including that are not broadly relevant to the topic, although I don't know wheter the link in question is objectionable. Otherwise we risk having editors add every link under the sun pertaining to the subject of the article.
The title of this article makes its content an indictment against the use of children in suicide bombing. I find the practice as reprehensible as anyone could, but this article is a misuse of Wikipedia. Is there an article "Adult suicide bombers in the..." or "Child victims of Israeli military strikes"? Xiao t 19:22, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Dear Wikipedia,
I feel it is not quite accurate to refer to these suicide bombers as 'Child'.
A child is a person between birth and puberty.
The average age of these bombers seems to be approximately 15 years, an age at which a large majority of 'children' have achieved puberty.
I feel that these adolescents have beeen re-labelled as 'children' for propaganda purposes.
While I do not approve of suicide bombing, especially by adolescents, neither do I approve of propaganda or sensationalism. The latter is stock in trade for the newspaper industry.
I think you should re-think the title of this article. The word 'child' in this context conjures up a picture of a 10 year old. Clearly this is not the case with young suicide bombers. Wikipedia is by no means a newspaper and should avoid falling into the trap of sensationalism.
Yours sincerely
Mutandis —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Mutandis ( talk • contribs)
I replaced the book cover image with an image of 16-year-old suicide bomber Aamer Alfar.
For one thing, the use of a book cover to illustrate a subject other than the book itself appears to violate WP:NFC ("uses that would almost certainly not be fair use ... 2. An image of a rose, cropped from an image of a record album jacket, used to illustrate an article on roses.", etc)
For another, the image showed a very young girl while all of the actual child suicide bombers have been young adults, "children" in a legal and possibly moral sense but not nearly as young as this child. The image I posted gives a better idea of your typical child suicide bomber.
Eleland 12:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
An article about child suicide bombers does not need a section about television programs, especially when the term "suicide bomber" or a variant doesn't appear anywhere in it. The implicit justification for this section's inclusion would seem to be the idea that any talk of "resistance", "jihad", or "martyrdom" equates to "suicide bombing", but this claim is not even made by the biased and discredited source available. In other words, it's WP:OR#SYN. Furthermore, the only specific claims about the content of this program come from one highly partisan source which has been caught promulgating misleading or outright fabricated "translations" of Arabic sources, and in fact has already been exposed completely reversing the meaning of some of the quotations we're using! In other words, it totally fails WP:RS.
Very similar issues apply to the section on textbooks. The one specific reference to suicide bombing in this section does not actually appear in the cited source (which is another far-right Israeli propaganda shop anyway). This source seems to make the duplicitous and equivocating implication that "shahada", or "martyrdom", equals "suicide bombing", when in fact Palestinians apply the term to all persons on their side who are killed by Israel, even foreign peace activists or sympathetic journalists. We might just as well claim that American children are being taught to shoot bombs and rockets when they learn "The Star-Spangled Banner". These wild claims of MEMRI and PMW are amplified and then passed on as if they are credible, when the very next paragraphs cite studies by genuine media study groups which completely demolish them. In other words, it's WP:UNDUE weight and WP:OR#SYN.
Eleland 01:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Is anyone going to discuss this? I've been told that the antidote to a revert war is to seek consensus on the talk page, but, there doesn't seem to be any substantive discussion by those favoring keeping the TV and textbooks sections. Some of the recently added material on psychology is a lot more relevant, although I think the excerpts and summary are a little selectively slanted. If y'all think it's a good idea, I'll work on a "Recruitment and indoctrination" section to replace the current "indoctrinating children" section; there is now at least some relevant material amid all the unreliable / irrelevant stuff. Eleland 16:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Stop inserting the cover scan of "Dying to Kill". This image violates WP:NONFREE as I have already explained. Its inclusion is disallowed by policy. (I have issues with the relevance and implications, but that's not necessary to discuss, since WP:NONFREE already demolishes it.) Since it's used nowhere else I'm going to try and have it deleted entirely. Eleland 12:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
According to Vamik Volkan, an American psychiatrist who has studied the issue, "Most suicide bombers in the Middle East are chosen as teenagers, 'educated,' and then sent off to perform their duty when they are in their late teens or early to mid-twenties." Volkan finds "little difficulty in finding young men interested in becoming suicide bombers in Gaza and the West Bank. Repeated actual and expected events humiliate youngsters and interfere with their adaptive identifications with their parents because their parents are humiliated as well." Volkan gives the examples of beatings, torture, or the loss of a parent as typical humiliating events which might make a young person more susceptible to recruitment for suicide terrorism.
Once recruited, children and teenagers are encouraged to cut off contact with "real world" affairs and subjected to an intense program of memorization and repetition of the Qur'an. According to Volkan, "their readings are carefully selected. The 'teachers' also supply sacred sounding, but meaningless, phrases to be repeated over and over in chant ... These kinds of mystical sayings combined with selected verses from the Quran help to create a 'different internal world' for the 'students.'"
The practice of recruiting minors for suicide bombings is generally not supported by Palestinian society, citation needed however, some individuals have spoken out in favor of it. Umm Nidal, who sent three of her sons, including one 17 year old, on suicide attacks, said "I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest." She was later elected to the Palestinian legislature on the Hamas ticket. [2] According to Human Rights Watch, "Major Palestinian armed groups, including Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Islamic Jihad, and Hamas, have publicly disavowed the use of children in military operations, but those stated policies have not always been implemented. Some leaders, including representatives of Islamic Jihad and Hamas, have said that they consider children of 16 to be adults. International law defines a child as any person under the age of eighteen ... Israeli government policy in the Occupied Territories defines Palestinians under the age of 16 as minors." [3]
Said the mother of 16-year-old Aamer Alfar, the youngest Palestinian to commit a suicide bombing, "God will curse those who recruited Amar. I had heard the stories about recruiting children in Nablus but I didn't think they were true... Yes, it is difficult here for everyone because of the occupation, and life in Nablus is intolerable, but children should not be exploited in this way."
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The TV section claims that Farfur (the terror mouse) "calls for Muslim world domination, encouraging children to say that they will "shoot", "annihilate the Jews", and "commit martyrdom."". It's sourced to a translation from MEMRI.
The translation has been exposed as fraudulent. MEMRI translated "excellence in the world" to "mastery of the world", put "I will shoot" in the kid's mouth when the mouse said it, translated "the Jews are (killing/shooting) us" as "we will annihilate the Jews", and "i will be martyred" as "i will commit martyrdom". This comes
It's very sad that Hamas TV created a childrens' show which appeared to encourage hard-line attitudes towards armed struggle among young children, but it has nothing to do with child suicide bombers. The whole section should be removed. Failing that, it should simply say there was a Hamas TV show through which children were encouraged to approve of fighting Israel, and that somebody accused it of promoting child suicide bombers -- and that's ONLY if you can actually find a reference where somebody accuses it of promoting child suicide bombers!
The textbooks section has now been systematically altered to remove the numerous credible academic sources which found no incitement to violence in P.A. textbooks. Even in its highly biased, propagandistic state, it makes no mention of child suicide bombing. The one statement that comes closest is "Palestinian textbooks have been accused of inciting Palestinian children to commit violence or terrorism," but this isn't even sourced. If a source can be found which specifically accuses the Palestinian education system of promoting child suicide bombers (and it doesn't violate WP:UNDUE, so I'm not talking about somebody's tiny blog site), then this one line could be kept. The rest should go.
Eleland 15:32, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
I strongly suggest that the editors who keep reinserting this image spend some time over at Wikipedia:Non-free_content#Images and see why the image cannot be used in this manner, specifically the "Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)" line It may be used in an article on the book, but not in an article about child suicide bombers. I'm not a big fan of these new image restrictions either, as I personally prefer to see album covers in music discographies. But if they're going to insist on applying this policy, the I will insist that it is applied uniformly across the Wikipedia. Tarc 13:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Fine. Zeq 19:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
"It is believed that the use of low-resolution images of book covers to illustrate an article discussing the book in question qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law. Other use of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, might be copyright infringement."
However if you read the cited source, Volkan talks about the Israeli occupation of Palestine and the resultant atmosphere of fear, insecurity, and humiliation, creating "identity cracks" and also about Nazi child-rearing practices, denying normal affection, and says these could create cracks as well. He actually compares the sum-total of the situation (Israeli occupation, radical Palestinian indoctrination) to the Nazi environment. Currently the phrasing seems to equate Palestinian terrorism to the Holocaust.
In addition, Volkan begins the article by talking about psychological trauma he observed in victims of Israeli-enabled massacres of Palestinians, and how this led him to some of his current theories. Why has this comparison, which is actually more prominent in the text, been overlooked, while the Nazi comparison is kept? Is it part of a systematic effort to make this article as damning of Palestinians as possible?
Eleland 19:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Zeq 19:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
That "martyr" photo does not belong in the intro. Please move it where it was in the text describing his "heroism" and in the future try to resist urges to turn a WP article into a Hamas poster. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 10:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Child suicide bombers are more global than just Israel/Palestine. They're also in Afghanistan ( [11], [12]) and Pakistan ( [13] [14]) This article should be moved to a more general "Child suicide bombers". Any good reasons to oppose this move? If not, I'll make a request to move the page. -- Matt57 ( talk• contribs) 16:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
As all article, this should require some secondary sources analyses to be neutral. With only primary sources, it is factual but looks like a little bit non neutral because orientated. Good history and good journalism requires comments. Comments require secondary sources. Alithien 10:26, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
As I have said repeatedly: neither section has anything to do with child suicide bombings. Furthermore, the TV section relies on a bogus translation from a shady Israeli group, and the textbooks section has been systematically altered, censoring the repeated findings of credible academics that PA textbooks do not contain incitement. (Replacing it with some garbage from Hillary Clinton, who has less than zero credibility on this issue.)
I'm removing the sections again. I don't want to see anything added unless reliable sources actually link the content to child suicide bombing. Eleland 14:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
The Volkan article is about all suicide bombers,not child suicide bombers, and should be quoted, if at all, in the parent article. Incidentally, the Nazi reference is gratuitous, and detracts heavily from the article. As it usually does. Hornplease 19:42, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Based on policy, virtually the entire "indoctrination" section should be expunged; it is a highly POV summary of discredited information which does not relate to the subject, and it is written in the most prejudicial, misleading, and disingenuous fashion imaginable. This being said, the information from "Palestine Media Watch" (a Zionist astroturf organization designed to make Palestinians look evil) and Hillary f'ing Clinton of all people is especially undesirable. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the woman has any standing on this issue or that she knows anything about the issues; clearly her statements are for political reasons which are too obvious and unfortunate to discuss. The removal of this information was absolutely correct and the subsequent reversions were totally unjustified. Eleland 01:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm actually not sure why this is being removed. We have good refs: two articles from major media sources and a report from a media watch organization. Also, in proportion to the whole article it is a small section. Bigglove 01:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
One of the cites that is repeatedly being removed is from the Jerusalem Post. Are you saying it is ok to remove that cite? Bigglove 02:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I see no justification for removing the Palestinian Media Watch report. It seems to be well-researched. If there are other reports that reach different conclusions, that's fine, mention all the reports. If there are reliable sources that critique specific facts or citations in the PMW report, that's fine, cite those too. As for Hillary Clinton, she is prominent enough to warrant a mention of her views. She is not the focus of the article. 6SJ7 04:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
PMW mostly collects Arab press publication so they are not a source by themself. It is well researched. It is scholarly. It is indeed not fully NPOV (i.e. it collects mostly what fit their agenda) but this is where wikipedia can do better: Include materail from many sources - each is somewhat POV but brought together this become NPOV. So do your homework and find sources instead of just removing sources found by other people. Zeq 09:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The current argument over PMW is leaving out a highly salient fact - that an earlier version made it clear that the textbook accusations were partisan nonsense, by actually reporting what neutral academics said, rather than just reporting that they said something. For example:
Ruth Firer of the Harry S. Truman Institute for the Advancement of Peace at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and Sami Adwan, a professor of education at Bethlehem University in Bethlehem compared Palestinian and Israeli textbooks in 2002. Of the Palestinian textbooks they found that "The books portray Jews throughout history in a positive manner and avoid negative stereotypes. However, according to the everyday experience of Palestinians, modern-day Israelis are presented as occupiers. The texts include examples of Israelis killing and imprisoning Palestinians, demolishing their homes, uprooting fruit trees, and confiscating their lands and building settlements on them. The texts also talk about the right of return for the 1948 Palestinian refugees when describing how those refugees live in camps." The Israeli textbooks, on the other hand don't even mention Palestinians "The Palestinians, as such, are not found in any of the three types of primary-level textbooks." Disputed territory is presented as being part of Israel: "Many of the chapters describe "the good land," sometimes called "our birthplace" or "homeland" ("moledet" in Hebrew), and include photos of places that are in the PNA or are in dispute between the two nations (i.e., East Jerusalem). They are presented without the national-political debate, and as naturally belonging to the Israeli state."[14]
This is just a sample; the other studied came up with much the same. Denial indeed. Eleland 16:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//547015
-- Jaakobou Chalk Talk 03:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Per the discussion at the AfD, I would like to formally propose that we rename this article to Suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and write a good, reliably source, not WP:OR article on the subject that includes some of the information already in this article. Any takers? Tiamut 02:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
What the hey it's been almost a year since this thing was basically abandoned. I've gone ahead and made various proposed changes in line with relevant sources and core content policies. If you have any objections I'd appreciate discussion. If you must revert me please consider reverting only those specific edits you disagree with rather than a wholesale rollback. Cheers, < eleland/ talk edits> 07:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
This article lists Ayat al-Akhras as a child suicide bomber. She was eighteen, an adult. While she was technically still a "teenager", I don't think she should be considered a child suicide bomber. -- 2602:304:6F76:2CB9:68C4:F7F5:A290:5A96 ( talk) 20:13, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
In the last line of the baby suicide bomber section; the following line can be found: "Other photos of children dressed up as terrorists have been published since then".
So what is "dressed up like terrorists"? You are not considering the Palestinians' Freedom Fighting RIGHT!!!
This is very POV and completely Israeli side story telling. Even wikipedia is completely taking israeli side. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.129.60.214 ( talk) 23:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
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82.14.99.113 ( talk) 07:37, 19 May 2021 (UTC)
This page must be removed, it is completely false and is clearly promoting terrorist activities which have no reliable sources to confirm it.
Would something like Child suicide bombing in Palestine be an improvement or cause too large a drop in precision? I feel the detail can be elaborated in-text. Iskandar323 ( talk) 18:30, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
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Please remove the following paragraph:
"At the height of the phenomenon, Avraham Burg, former chairman of the Jewish Agency for Israel, speaker of Israel's Knesset and interim President of Israel, stated his view that, given Israeli indifference to the tortured lives of Palestinian children under occupation, suicide bombings come as no surprise. [4]"
The paragraph gives undue weight to an opinion that practically justifies Palestinian suicide bombers. The opinion does not represent the majority Israeli opinion, but an opinion of a politician who is considered a radical leftist. The paragraph gives undue weight to a fringe opinion. 2A0D:6FC0:6E5:2F00:354E:3006:9087:2E1D ( talk) 15:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)