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This is a pov branch and should be merged into Unionism in Ireland. Snappy ( talk) 14:57, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
This should be done, its a POV piece with, " About 2% of Ulster Protestants reside in the rump of Ulster in the Republic of Ireland", the only ref I can see that uses Ulster Protestants is a blog, and that in itself is not a reliable source. However As Gob Lofa started the article, we should let him explain first. Murry1975 ( talk) 19:05, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
"Aligned with McAdam's Protestant faith is a sense of Britishness. "I may have been born in Ireland, but I feel British," he says. "I'm speaking on a personal level, not on behalf of other Protestants in the area, many of whom obviously feel Irish. I feel I have a number of identities. I'm a Cavan man, I'm an Ulster man and I'm also a British man. I just happened to be born in Ireland. Despite this sense of Britishness, McAdam is not eligible for a UK passport. He has considered moving with his wife and young children to Scotland, but has contented himself with the quiet life of rural Cavan."(from 2008)
And
"Yet 26pc of respondents did not believe they had equal access to jobs in the State sector (some said they would feel more comfortable joining the PSNI than the Garda Siochana) and 57pc felt the Protestant community was not fairly or adequately represented by the political system. The latter sentiment suggests there was some truth in David Trimble's controversial criticism of the Republic as a mono-ethnic and mono-cultural entity....One of the strongest impressions conveyed by the report is of a people loathe to rock the boat with overt displays of a different identity but who fear nonetheless that their identity is being eroded. For instance, 32pc said they would have reservations about their son or daughter marrying a Roman Catholic and 22pc said they would not approve of such a marriage; and while 21pc said they were members of organisations such as the Orange Order, the Royal Black Preceptory, the Masonic Lodge and the Apprentice Boys, 41pc disagreed that Protestant cultural activities had been "demonised". However, 46pc agreed."(2005 on a report by Border Protestant Perspectives)
Neither show support for this statement. I may have missed British identity in the second one, but I dont think so. Murry1975 ( talk) 11:48, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
This would need sourced with something carrying good weight such as along academic lines or what not. I agree that the majority of Protestants, and indeed people in Ulster, are descended from Scots and thus are technically "Ulster-Scots", but in the meaning of the term Ulster-Scots as it is used today and on its article, this would not be a good term to use. It would be better to state "of Scottish origin".
Ulster-Scots according to modern-day myth are Scots speakers from the Scottish Lowlands. In reality, up to 50% of the Scots who came to Ulster in the early and mid 17th century spoke Scotch-Gaelic. Add in the fact that the Protestant Scots that Randal McDonnell planted onto his lands throughout County Antrim before the Plantation of Ulster itself largely came from the Scotch-Gaelic Western Isles.
Mabuska (talk) 21:11, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm not calling for a formal merge request at this time however I feel that this article would be better suited being merged and made a section within Protestantism in Ireland. As they are both heavily interrelated, it would help beef the article up. Mabuska (talk) 11:07, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I realise ethnoreligious group is not in the source Mabuska, but as it was a compromise proposed by Snappy, don't you think you're being a little aggressive in getting rid of it? After all, it's not such a leap of faith to consider Protestants as a religious group. Gob Lofa ( talk) 00:44, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
We don't always have to follow the source religiously; after all, that's a point on which we agreed at Talk:RUC Special Branch. What do you think? Gob Lofa ( talk) 21:35, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
There are any number of reliable sources describing Ulster Protestants as an ethnic group. Since the word "Protestant" doesn't have a meaning distinct from the Protestant religion, it follows that they fit the definition of ethnoreligious group. Seeing as the whole thrust of the article is the ethnic identification of Ulster Protestants, it makes no sense not to state that in the first sentence. Scolaire ( talk) 11:02, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Once I get more work done on Protestantism in Ireland, which will no doubt need to see Protestantism in Northern Ireland turned into an article instead of being a redirect, most of this article would be redundant. Until then it does have a place at present even if I myself don't agree fully with it. Mabuska (talk) 15:01, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Instances of use
Apollo The Logician ( talk) 11:20, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
You are the one opposing this.There is a clear con. Follow WP:CON Apollo The Logician ( talk) 07:15, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
It appears that the Scots form "Ulstèr Prodysans" is unsupported. The source used does not make use of the term, only using Prodysans, with Ulstèr being used solely in the Scots form of Mid-Ulster District. Thus it is WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:OR and not suitable for inclusion. I have asked Jon C. to detail whether the source they found the Irish form is likewise being used to do the same. Mabuska (talk) 11:36, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Lord banished from his estate Clanricarde local Catholics and Protestants gave Ulster into their place. I would say that the first half of that statement should be
The lord banished from his Clanricarde estate, the second half is debatable, which leads us to the important question... is "Protastúnaigh Ultacha" being used to refer specifically to a group of people called Ulster Protestants or is it part of a statement about Catholics and Protestants and one of those groups heading to Ulster after being banished from Clanricarde's estate? If the latter then the source is not valid for use as it does refer to a group of people. I will ping a couple of editors who I believe can provide a better translation: @ Scolaire: @ Fergananim: Mabuska (talk) 15:02, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Lord Clanricarde banished local Catholics from his estate and in their place settled Protestants from Ulster.. Hows that? Mabuska (talk) 15:06, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm finding Protastúnaigh Uladh more frequently than Protastúnaigh Ultacha. So far I've found:
Hope this helps. Scolaire ( talk) 12:32, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Is there any reason why this and Ulster-Scots people need to be separate articles? Especially now that belief in Bloke-on-a-Stick-stianity in general is in rapid decline and many of the 1,000,000 cited here will be agnostic/atheist/non-religious? Claíomh Solais ( talk) 21:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Snowded: Historian Jay Dolan on usage of "Scotch-Irish": "The term [Scotch-Irish] had been in use during the eighteenth century to designate Ulster Presbyterians who had emigrated to the United States. From the mid-1700s through the early 1800s, however, the term Irish was more widely used to identify both Catholic and Protestant Irish. As long as the Protestants comprised the majority of the emigrants, as they did until the 1830s, they were happy to be known simply as Irish. But as political and religious conflict between Catholics and Protestants both in Ireland and the United States became more frequent, and as Catholic emigrants began to outnumber Protestants, the term Irish became synonymous with Irish Catholics. As a result, Scotch-Irish became the customary term to describe Protestants of Irish descent. By adopting this new identity, Irish Protestants in America dissociated themselves from Irish Catholics... The famine migration of the 1840s and '50s that sent waves of poor Irish Catholics to the United States together with the rise in anti-Catholicism intensified this attitude. In no way did Irish Protestants want to be identified with these ragged newcomers." (Dolan 2008 p. x)
Former U.S. Senator and author Jim Webb on U.S. Census Bureau Irish and Scotch-Irish ancestry self-identification estimates: "...there is a tendency in many academic and literary quarters to lump the Scots-Irish in with the Irish themselves. More than 40 million Americans claim Irish descent, exclusive of those Scots-Irish who have self-identified themselves on census reports under other categories such as Scottish or 'native American.' Interestingly, more than half of these are of Scots-Irish ancestry." (Webb p. 15)
Historian James G. Leyburn on usage of "Scotch-Irish": "From the time of the Revolutionary War onward for a good part of a century the appellation 'Scotch-Irish' simply disappears from the record. It is one of the principal contentions of the American Irish that the term was revived and then enthusiastically adopted after 1850 solely because of prejudice. The point seems well taken... The fact remains, however, that it is a useful term. Despite its hybrid nature, with one term biological and cultural and the other geographical, it expresses a historical reality: the Scots who lived in Ulster before they came to America simply were not, in background, religion, and many other aspects of culture, identical with the Irish of the southern provinces of Leinster, Munster, and Connaught; neither were they, after many decades, any longer identical with the people of Scotland. A century of use has established the double name, and no substitute is accurate." (Leyburn pp. 331–333)
Historians H. Tyler Blethen and Curtis W. Wood on demographics indicating not all Irish Protestant migrants to the United States during the 18th century were Ulster Scots: "...250,000 people left for America between 1717 and 1800...20,000 were Anglo-Irish, 20,000 were Gaelic Irish, and the remainder Ulster-Scots..." (Blethen & Wood p. 22)
Historian Philip S. Robinson on intermarriage between Ulster Scots and Anglo-Irish as well as Welsh and Manx migration to Ulster: "...many English did not conform to the Established Church, and there has been relatively less social resistance to intermarriage between Protestants of differing denominations than between Protestants and Roman Catholics... Areas of English settlement in County Londonderry, north Armagh, south-west Antrim and Fermanagh support the assumption that most non-Presbyterian British were of English stock. In places these 'English' settlers included Welsh and Manx men." (Robinson pp. 111–113)
Leyburn on intermarriage between Ulster Scots and Huguenots: "In 1685 France revoked the Edict of Nantes, which for many years had assured religious liberty to the Huguenots. Historians estimate that some half-million of these Protestants left France as a result of the revocation of the Edict... Many of them... came to Ulster, and since they, too, were Calvinists, for the most part they joined the Presbyterian Church and soon became a part of the Scottish communities." (Leyburn p. 128)
Historian David Hackett Fischer on intermarriage in Ulster: "In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, it was observed that 'the Ulster settlers mingled freely with the English Puritans and Huguenots,' but married very rarely with the Gaelic-speaking people of Ireland and Scotland." (Fischer p. 620)
Historian Sean Duffy on conversion by Irish Catholics during the Reformation: "...the Irish saw the Protestant Reformation as just an instrument of military conquest and forced Anglicisation... [because of this] the numbers of Roman Catholics remained high [during Queen Elizabeth's reign] and they were zealously ministered to by a plentiful supply of Continentally-trained priests, among whom the Jesuits were predominant: the latter were so successful in performing their task that by the end of Elizabeth's reign they had won the hearts-and-minds battle among the populace, as regards the choice between Catholicism and Protestantism... [By] 1603... it was too late and the Protestant Reformation had failed in Ireland." (Duffy p. 100–107)
Dolan also noted in 1987 that intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics in the United States was also historically uncommon. (Dolan 1987 p. 228) In 2015, three Irish historians studied intermarriage using Irish census records from 1911 and found that intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics was less than one percent of all marriages. (Fernihough, O'Grada & Walsh 2015) -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 22:18, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Snowded: Now that I have provided most of the content that indicates that my edits were neither inaccurate nor a synthesis, I would like to know what your objections are to not self-reverting. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 22:56, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't think you did - per my statement above you are moving from common use in the literature to describe ethnic groups to an assumption about use in a census (and in a different country)to cover religious affiliation. I don't think that works but let's see what others think. Thanks for getting the indents sorted out ----- Snowded TALK 10:25, 13 June 2019 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Troubles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is a pov branch and should be merged into Unionism in Ireland. Snappy ( talk) 14:57, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
This should be done, its a POV piece with, " About 2% of Ulster Protestants reside in the rump of Ulster in the Republic of Ireland", the only ref I can see that uses Ulster Protestants is a blog, and that in itself is not a reliable source. However As Gob Lofa started the article, we should let him explain first. Murry1975 ( talk) 19:05, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
"Aligned with McAdam's Protestant faith is a sense of Britishness. "I may have been born in Ireland, but I feel British," he says. "I'm speaking on a personal level, not on behalf of other Protestants in the area, many of whom obviously feel Irish. I feel I have a number of identities. I'm a Cavan man, I'm an Ulster man and I'm also a British man. I just happened to be born in Ireland. Despite this sense of Britishness, McAdam is not eligible for a UK passport. He has considered moving with his wife and young children to Scotland, but has contented himself with the quiet life of rural Cavan."(from 2008)
And
"Yet 26pc of respondents did not believe they had equal access to jobs in the State sector (some said they would feel more comfortable joining the PSNI than the Garda Siochana) and 57pc felt the Protestant community was not fairly or adequately represented by the political system. The latter sentiment suggests there was some truth in David Trimble's controversial criticism of the Republic as a mono-ethnic and mono-cultural entity....One of the strongest impressions conveyed by the report is of a people loathe to rock the boat with overt displays of a different identity but who fear nonetheless that their identity is being eroded. For instance, 32pc said they would have reservations about their son or daughter marrying a Roman Catholic and 22pc said they would not approve of such a marriage; and while 21pc said they were members of organisations such as the Orange Order, the Royal Black Preceptory, the Masonic Lodge and the Apprentice Boys, 41pc disagreed that Protestant cultural activities had been "demonised". However, 46pc agreed."(2005 on a report by Border Protestant Perspectives)
Neither show support for this statement. I may have missed British identity in the second one, but I dont think so. Murry1975 ( talk) 11:48, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
This would need sourced with something carrying good weight such as along academic lines or what not. I agree that the majority of Protestants, and indeed people in Ulster, are descended from Scots and thus are technically "Ulster-Scots", but in the meaning of the term Ulster-Scots as it is used today and on its article, this would not be a good term to use. It would be better to state "of Scottish origin".
Ulster-Scots according to modern-day myth are Scots speakers from the Scottish Lowlands. In reality, up to 50% of the Scots who came to Ulster in the early and mid 17th century spoke Scotch-Gaelic. Add in the fact that the Protestant Scots that Randal McDonnell planted onto his lands throughout County Antrim before the Plantation of Ulster itself largely came from the Scotch-Gaelic Western Isles.
Mabuska (talk) 21:11, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm not calling for a formal merge request at this time however I feel that this article would be better suited being merged and made a section within Protestantism in Ireland. As they are both heavily interrelated, it would help beef the article up. Mabuska (talk) 11:07, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I realise ethnoreligious group is not in the source Mabuska, but as it was a compromise proposed by Snappy, don't you think you're being a little aggressive in getting rid of it? After all, it's not such a leap of faith to consider Protestants as a religious group. Gob Lofa ( talk) 00:44, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
We don't always have to follow the source religiously; after all, that's a point on which we agreed at Talk:RUC Special Branch. What do you think? Gob Lofa ( talk) 21:35, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
There are any number of reliable sources describing Ulster Protestants as an ethnic group. Since the word "Protestant" doesn't have a meaning distinct from the Protestant religion, it follows that they fit the definition of ethnoreligious group. Seeing as the whole thrust of the article is the ethnic identification of Ulster Protestants, it makes no sense not to state that in the first sentence. Scolaire ( talk) 11:02, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Once I get more work done on Protestantism in Ireland, which will no doubt need to see Protestantism in Northern Ireland turned into an article instead of being a redirect, most of this article would be redundant. Until then it does have a place at present even if I myself don't agree fully with it. Mabuska (talk) 15:01, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
Instances of use
Apollo The Logician ( talk) 11:20, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
You are the one opposing this.There is a clear con. Follow WP:CON Apollo The Logician ( talk) 07:15, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
It appears that the Scots form "Ulstèr Prodysans" is unsupported. The source used does not make use of the term, only using Prodysans, with Ulstèr being used solely in the Scots form of Mid-Ulster District. Thus it is WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:OR and not suitable for inclusion. I have asked Jon C. to detail whether the source they found the Irish form is likewise being used to do the same. Mabuska (talk) 11:36, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Lord banished from his estate Clanricarde local Catholics and Protestants gave Ulster into their place. I would say that the first half of that statement should be
The lord banished from his Clanricarde estate, the second half is debatable, which leads us to the important question... is "Protastúnaigh Ultacha" being used to refer specifically to a group of people called Ulster Protestants or is it part of a statement about Catholics and Protestants and one of those groups heading to Ulster after being banished from Clanricarde's estate? If the latter then the source is not valid for use as it does refer to a group of people. I will ping a couple of editors who I believe can provide a better translation: @ Scolaire: @ Fergananim: Mabuska (talk) 15:02, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
Lord Clanricarde banished local Catholics from his estate and in their place settled Protestants from Ulster.. Hows that? Mabuska (talk) 15:06, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm finding Protastúnaigh Uladh more frequently than Protastúnaigh Ultacha. So far I've found:
Hope this helps. Scolaire ( talk) 12:32, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
Is there any reason why this and Ulster-Scots people need to be separate articles? Especially now that belief in Bloke-on-a-Stick-stianity in general is in rapid decline and many of the 1,000,000 cited here will be agnostic/atheist/non-religious? Claíomh Solais ( talk) 21:26, 17 May 2017 (UTC)
@ Snowded: Historian Jay Dolan on usage of "Scotch-Irish": "The term [Scotch-Irish] had been in use during the eighteenth century to designate Ulster Presbyterians who had emigrated to the United States. From the mid-1700s through the early 1800s, however, the term Irish was more widely used to identify both Catholic and Protestant Irish. As long as the Protestants comprised the majority of the emigrants, as they did until the 1830s, they were happy to be known simply as Irish. But as political and religious conflict between Catholics and Protestants both in Ireland and the United States became more frequent, and as Catholic emigrants began to outnumber Protestants, the term Irish became synonymous with Irish Catholics. As a result, Scotch-Irish became the customary term to describe Protestants of Irish descent. By adopting this new identity, Irish Protestants in America dissociated themselves from Irish Catholics... The famine migration of the 1840s and '50s that sent waves of poor Irish Catholics to the United States together with the rise in anti-Catholicism intensified this attitude. In no way did Irish Protestants want to be identified with these ragged newcomers." (Dolan 2008 p. x)
Former U.S. Senator and author Jim Webb on U.S. Census Bureau Irish and Scotch-Irish ancestry self-identification estimates: "...there is a tendency in many academic and literary quarters to lump the Scots-Irish in with the Irish themselves. More than 40 million Americans claim Irish descent, exclusive of those Scots-Irish who have self-identified themselves on census reports under other categories such as Scottish or 'native American.' Interestingly, more than half of these are of Scots-Irish ancestry." (Webb p. 15)
Historian James G. Leyburn on usage of "Scotch-Irish": "From the time of the Revolutionary War onward for a good part of a century the appellation 'Scotch-Irish' simply disappears from the record. It is one of the principal contentions of the American Irish that the term was revived and then enthusiastically adopted after 1850 solely because of prejudice. The point seems well taken... The fact remains, however, that it is a useful term. Despite its hybrid nature, with one term biological and cultural and the other geographical, it expresses a historical reality: the Scots who lived in Ulster before they came to America simply were not, in background, religion, and many other aspects of culture, identical with the Irish of the southern provinces of Leinster, Munster, and Connaught; neither were they, after many decades, any longer identical with the people of Scotland. A century of use has established the double name, and no substitute is accurate." (Leyburn pp. 331–333)
Historians H. Tyler Blethen and Curtis W. Wood on demographics indicating not all Irish Protestant migrants to the United States during the 18th century were Ulster Scots: "...250,000 people left for America between 1717 and 1800...20,000 were Anglo-Irish, 20,000 were Gaelic Irish, and the remainder Ulster-Scots..." (Blethen & Wood p. 22)
Historian Philip S. Robinson on intermarriage between Ulster Scots and Anglo-Irish as well as Welsh and Manx migration to Ulster: "...many English did not conform to the Established Church, and there has been relatively less social resistance to intermarriage between Protestants of differing denominations than between Protestants and Roman Catholics... Areas of English settlement in County Londonderry, north Armagh, south-west Antrim and Fermanagh support the assumption that most non-Presbyterian British were of English stock. In places these 'English' settlers included Welsh and Manx men." (Robinson pp. 111–113)
Leyburn on intermarriage between Ulster Scots and Huguenots: "In 1685 France revoked the Edict of Nantes, which for many years had assured religious liberty to the Huguenots. Historians estimate that some half-million of these Protestants left France as a result of the revocation of the Edict... Many of them... came to Ulster, and since they, too, were Calvinists, for the most part they joined the Presbyterian Church and soon became a part of the Scottish communities." (Leyburn p. 128)
Historian David Hackett Fischer on intermarriage in Ulster: "In the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, it was observed that 'the Ulster settlers mingled freely with the English Puritans and Huguenots,' but married very rarely with the Gaelic-speaking people of Ireland and Scotland." (Fischer p. 620)
Historian Sean Duffy on conversion by Irish Catholics during the Reformation: "...the Irish saw the Protestant Reformation as just an instrument of military conquest and forced Anglicisation... [because of this] the numbers of Roman Catholics remained high [during Queen Elizabeth's reign] and they were zealously ministered to by a plentiful supply of Continentally-trained priests, among whom the Jesuits were predominant: the latter were so successful in performing their task that by the end of Elizabeth's reign they had won the hearts-and-minds battle among the populace, as regards the choice between Catholicism and Protestantism... [By] 1603... it was too late and the Protestant Reformation had failed in Ireland." (Duffy p. 100–107)
Dolan also noted in 1987 that intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics in the United States was also historically uncommon. (Dolan 1987 p. 228) In 2015, three Irish historians studied intermarriage using Irish census records from 1911 and found that intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics was less than one percent of all marriages. (Fernihough, O'Grada & Walsh 2015) -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 22:18, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
@ Snowded: Now that I have provided most of the content that indicates that my edits were neither inaccurate nor a synthesis, I would like to know what your objections are to not self-reverting. -- CommonKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 22:56, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't think you did - per my statement above you are moving from common use in the literature to describe ethnic groups to an assumption about use in a census (and in a different country)to cover religious affiliation. I don't think that works but let's see what others think. Thanks for getting the indents sorted out ----- Snowded TALK 10:25, 13 June 2019 (UTC)