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This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, John McCain, due to size or style considerations. |
I'm just wondering why this page is a separate page than the main John McCain page. Not only is this about a secondary career of his, but it doesn't even go through the entirety of that career. I propose that this page be merged back into the main John McCain article. Dcs315 ( talk) 23:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The Iran-Iraq Non-Proliferation Act did become law as an amendment to Emergency Powers Act U.S. Code Title 50 Section 1701 [1]. The Missile Technology Control Act of 1990 become law as U.S. Code Title 22 Chapter 39 Subchapter 7. These laws have been repeatedly applied in the past fifteen years, the former referred to commonly as the Gore-McCain Act. As far as I can tell, the MTCA was passed as an amendment to the Senate version of the appropriations bill on August 3, 1990, eventually being incorporated as part of the final defense appropriations bill H.R. 4739 on November 5, 1990. WastedTime_R, thank you for pointing out that the provided references were inadequate; I'll improve them when I find the proper pages in Thomas that follow the bill's development from start to finish. JoeyCG ( talk) 17:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=m000303
He didn't serve in Congress until 1983, not 1982. Need to fix the title. Help!
903M (
talk) 00:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Some politicians begin their campaign much earlier. So including the date of the start of campaigning is a very imprecise date. Some informally campaign years ahead of time. So the encyclopedic date should be when the term starts, which is 1983.
903M (
talk) 01:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
This is a common editorial question in WP political articles: whether to group elections together with the subsequent service or not. There's arguments to be made both ways. But since this is greatly bothering 903M, I have restructured the article's sections as such:
1 Entry into politics and 1982 House campaign 2 U.S. Congressman * 2.1 House years * 2.2 More children * 2.3 1986 Senate campaign 3 U.S. Senator * 3.1 Senate career starts * 3.2 Keating Five Scandal * 3.3 Vietnam redux * 3.4 A "maverick" senator
Breaking 1981-1982 material into its own top-level section is actually an improvement, since we (and all of McCain's biographers and journalists) spend a lot of time on this campaign, as it was close and made his political career possible. Putting the 1986 senate campaign into the Congressman section is a bit counter-intuitive, but at least it gets the chronology right regarding elections vs. service. Wasted Time R ( talk) 14:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
[...] That leaves the question of what this article's title should be. In reality, Early life and military career of John McCain contains all aspects of his life from birth to April 1981, when he retired from the Navy. John McCain presidential campaign, 2000 contains all aspects of his life from about March 1999 to the end of 2000. Senate career of John McCain, 2001–present covers his life from the start of 2001 up to his current presidential campaign, where John McCain presidential campaign, 2008 takes over.
So this article is intended to cover all aspects of his life from April 1981, when he moved to Phoenix and began working for his father-in-law and preparing his political career, to March/April 1999, when he began running for president. So the best title might be something like Political career of John McCain, 1981–1999. This includes the Arizona political prep work, the 1982 campaign, the House years and the Senate years. On the other hand, it leaves out 'House' and 'Senate' from the article title, which is kind of unfortunate. Wasted Time R ( talk) 15:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
How about Political and congressional career of John McCain, 1981–1999? Wasted Time R ( talk) 15:05, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm still puzzling on this, and will return to it after the election, when we know more about the future structure of McCain articles. Another possibility is House and early Senate career of John McCain, and leave off the troublesome dates. Wasted Time R ( talk) 12:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I've decided that House and Senate career of John McCain until 2000 is the best title. It omits a start date, which is beneficial because it then clearly allows us to include the 1981 and 1982 material. It omits the dash, which is hard to enter directly into a browser URL box. And the "until 2000" phrase gets across the idea that it runs up until the 2000 presidential campaign article and doesn't leave a Senate 'gap', without being explicit about whether it ends in 1999 or 2000. Wasted Time R ( talk) 00:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Now done, but to House and Senate career of John McCain, until 2000, since the comma form seems to be standard in these types of article names. Wasted Time R ( talk) 01:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
The material is notable and should not be deleted. A summary needs to go into the main article as pr WP:SUMMARY. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
(undent)I'm not sure the following material is really notable, but here's a draft paragraph:
In December 1985, McCain visited Chilean government officials such as dictator Augusto Pinochet and Admiral José Toribio Merino, and later recounted to the U.S. Embassy what they said.[1] The media reported at the time that Merino told McCain he opposed Pinochet’s continuance in office.[2] During this period, the Reagan Administration supported restoration of democracy in Chile, and U.S. Ambassador Harry Barnes was reaching out to the opposition.[3] McCain’s meeting with Pinochet was not publicized at the time, nor did McCain reportedly visit with opposition leaders. Both Pinochet and his ministers refused to meet in January 1986 with another U.S. Senator who visited with opposition leaders.[3]
In 2008, a McCain spokesperson stated: "There is a huge difference between a junior Congressman meeting a dictator and a President holding unconditional summit meetings with dictators. As the cable describing the meeting recounts, Congressman McCain said meeting with Pinochet was like talking to the head of the John Birch Society. John McCain was a key Republican supporter of Chile's transition to democracy and led on numerous legislative initiatives, including securing U.S. funding for the plebiscite which ended Pinochet's rule."[4]
[1] Cable from U.S. Embassy in Santiago to the U.S. Secretary of State, via Huffington Post (January 1986)
[2] “Chile Officers Said to Favor Ending Pinochet Rule in 1989”, Miami Herald ( 1986-01-23)
[3] de Onis, Juan. “Chile Military Regime Begins 13th Year in Confrontational Mood”, Los Angeles Times ( 1986-02-07).
[4] Reinhard, Beth. "Blog: McCain met with Pinochet", Naked Politics, Miami Herald ( 2008-10-24).
Ferrylodge ( talk) 01:48, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The draft I have in mind would go something like this (not fully polished):
Again, stick with what happened then, forgot about 2008-level issues. This whole article only describes what happened in 1981-1999, never later. Wasted Time R ( talk) 04:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I still insist that this is not at all notable, and shouldn't be in the article at all. And no, I don't care how interesting the South American press in 2008 find it; I don't know how much they know about US congressmen's function, and what is or isn't normal for one to have done, especially 23 years ago.
Jossi, consensus is needed to insert material, not to remove it. Especially if it's new material, for which there has never been a consensus in the first place. -- Zsero ( talk) 06:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I've started looking at this, and made a couple of edits on it, but am scrunched on time again. On problem is that it's a bit too long, for the weighting it deserves. Another is, I don't understand why you don't say that McCain publicized Merino's statement. That's what the Herald is saying, per your quote from it ("During a visit this month, Rep. John McCain, R-Ariz., met with navy commander Adm. Jose Toribio Merino and quoted him as saying that he would vote against Pinochet's nomination to continue as president. The air force and national police commanders share that position, according to several Chilean political leaders who have spoken with them.") and it speaks to McCain's credit (by publicizing it, he holds Merino's feet to the fire). Another is the notion that you can't meet with both the junta and with opposition leaders. Well, the Ambasssador could do both a number of times, and Kennedy couldn't. That gives us only two data points, not enough to establish this inference here. More later. Wasted Time R ( talk) 12:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The summary looks is looking good, but for some reason the material about he reception of the declassification of these documents in the Latin American press were deleted. I have restored these. I would welcome tweaks to the sentence, but not its outright deletion.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk) 18:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
(undent)Thanks for the translator. The material that I have recently inserted into the article was intended to summarize the sentence you added. As I said, the "warm and friendly" and the "secret" stuff is already summarized in the present article. I think that the news sources currently cited in the article cover everything that you want. Here is what the article currently says:
In December 1985, McCain visited Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet and junta member Admiral José Toribio Merino.[42][43] McCain told the U.S. Embassy in Santiago that both meetings were friendly and warm, but described Pinochet as obsessed about the dangers of communism and likened him to the John Birch Society.[44] Merino's statement to McCain that the junta would not support a Pinochet bid to remain president was made publicly known,[45] but McCain’s meeting with Pinochet was not declassified until 2008.[42][46] During that period when McCain visited Chile, the Reagan Administration was supporting restoration of democracy in Chile, for example by trying to persuade Pinochet to step aside.[47] McCain later called upon the Chilean government to respect the upcoming Chilean national plebiscite of 1988.[48]
The current footnotes include "CIPER Chile » Blog Archive » La desconocida cita entre John McCain y Pinochet" (in Spanish). Centro de Investigación e Información Periodística" and also include "Revelan inédita cita entre McCain y Pinochet en 1985, Los Tiempos". Ferrylodge ( talk) 19:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I have re-read the paragraph and still feel that it does not present the controversial meeting in the proper way. It needs work, and I will attempt to add some more text for NPOV later on. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, I renew my objection to any mention of this at all, but the consensus is clearly against me. I still don't see, though, why the mere fact that it was widely reported in the South American press 23 years later is at all relevant to this article. As FL says, the purpose of footnotes is so readers can verify that the article's claims are true, not to list every source that has the same information. -- Zsero ( talk) 00:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:United States Senate career of Huey Long which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 05:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
US House and Senate career of John McCain (until 2000) has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
|
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This subarticle is kept separate from the main article, John McCain, due to size or style considerations. |
I'm just wondering why this page is a separate page than the main John McCain page. Not only is this about a secondary career of his, but it doesn't even go through the entirety of that career. I propose that this page be merged back into the main John McCain article. Dcs315 ( talk) 23:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The Iran-Iraq Non-Proliferation Act did become law as an amendment to Emergency Powers Act U.S. Code Title 50 Section 1701 [1]. The Missile Technology Control Act of 1990 become law as U.S. Code Title 22 Chapter 39 Subchapter 7. These laws have been repeatedly applied in the past fifteen years, the former referred to commonly as the Gore-McCain Act. As far as I can tell, the MTCA was passed as an amendment to the Senate version of the appropriations bill on August 3, 1990, eventually being incorporated as part of the final defense appropriations bill H.R. 4739 on November 5, 1990. WastedTime_R, thank you for pointing out that the provided references were inadequate; I'll improve them when I find the proper pages in Thomas that follow the bill's development from start to finish. JoeyCG ( talk) 17:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
http://bioguide.congress.gov/scripts/biodisplay.pl?index=m000303
He didn't serve in Congress until 1983, not 1982. Need to fix the title. Help!
903M (
talk) 00:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
Some politicians begin their campaign much earlier. So including the date of the start of campaigning is a very imprecise date. Some informally campaign years ahead of time. So the encyclopedic date should be when the term starts, which is 1983.
903M (
talk) 01:53, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
This is a common editorial question in WP political articles: whether to group elections together with the subsequent service or not. There's arguments to be made both ways. But since this is greatly bothering 903M, I have restructured the article's sections as such:
1 Entry into politics and 1982 House campaign 2 U.S. Congressman * 2.1 House years * 2.2 More children * 2.3 1986 Senate campaign 3 U.S. Senator * 3.1 Senate career starts * 3.2 Keating Five Scandal * 3.3 Vietnam redux * 3.4 A "maverick" senator
Breaking 1981-1982 material into its own top-level section is actually an improvement, since we (and all of McCain's biographers and journalists) spend a lot of time on this campaign, as it was close and made his political career possible. Putting the 1986 senate campaign into the Congressman section is a bit counter-intuitive, but at least it gets the chronology right regarding elections vs. service. Wasted Time R ( talk) 14:35, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
[...] That leaves the question of what this article's title should be. In reality, Early life and military career of John McCain contains all aspects of his life from birth to April 1981, when he retired from the Navy. John McCain presidential campaign, 2000 contains all aspects of his life from about March 1999 to the end of 2000. Senate career of John McCain, 2001–present covers his life from the start of 2001 up to his current presidential campaign, where John McCain presidential campaign, 2008 takes over.
So this article is intended to cover all aspects of his life from April 1981, when he moved to Phoenix and began working for his father-in-law and preparing his political career, to March/April 1999, when he began running for president. So the best title might be something like Political career of John McCain, 1981–1999. This includes the Arizona political prep work, the 1982 campaign, the House years and the Senate years. On the other hand, it leaves out 'House' and 'Senate' from the article title, which is kind of unfortunate. Wasted Time R ( talk) 15:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
How about Political and congressional career of John McCain, 1981–1999? Wasted Time R ( talk) 15:05, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm still puzzling on this, and will return to it after the election, when we know more about the future structure of McCain articles. Another possibility is House and early Senate career of John McCain, and leave off the troublesome dates. Wasted Time R ( talk) 12:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I've decided that House and Senate career of John McCain until 2000 is the best title. It omits a start date, which is beneficial because it then clearly allows us to include the 1981 and 1982 material. It omits the dash, which is hard to enter directly into a browser URL box. And the "until 2000" phrase gets across the idea that it runs up until the 2000 presidential campaign article and doesn't leave a Senate 'gap', without being explicit about whether it ends in 1999 or 2000. Wasted Time R ( talk) 00:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Now done, but to House and Senate career of John McCain, until 2000, since the comma form seems to be standard in these types of article names. Wasted Time R ( talk) 01:02, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
The material is notable and should not be deleted. A summary needs to go into the main article as pr WP:SUMMARY. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
(undent)I'm not sure the following material is really notable, but here's a draft paragraph:
In December 1985, McCain visited Chilean government officials such as dictator Augusto Pinochet and Admiral José Toribio Merino, and later recounted to the U.S. Embassy what they said.[1] The media reported at the time that Merino told McCain he opposed Pinochet’s continuance in office.[2] During this period, the Reagan Administration supported restoration of democracy in Chile, and U.S. Ambassador Harry Barnes was reaching out to the opposition.[3] McCain’s meeting with Pinochet was not publicized at the time, nor did McCain reportedly visit with opposition leaders. Both Pinochet and his ministers refused to meet in January 1986 with another U.S. Senator who visited with opposition leaders.[3]
In 2008, a McCain spokesperson stated: "There is a huge difference between a junior Congressman meeting a dictator and a President holding unconditional summit meetings with dictators. As the cable describing the meeting recounts, Congressman McCain said meeting with Pinochet was like talking to the head of the John Birch Society. John McCain was a key Republican supporter of Chile's transition to democracy and led on numerous legislative initiatives, including securing U.S. funding for the plebiscite which ended Pinochet's rule."[4]
[1] Cable from U.S. Embassy in Santiago to the U.S. Secretary of State, via Huffington Post (January 1986)
[2] “Chile Officers Said to Favor Ending Pinochet Rule in 1989”, Miami Herald ( 1986-01-23)
[3] de Onis, Juan. “Chile Military Regime Begins 13th Year in Confrontational Mood”, Los Angeles Times ( 1986-02-07).
[4] Reinhard, Beth. "Blog: McCain met with Pinochet", Naked Politics, Miami Herald ( 2008-10-24).
Ferrylodge ( talk) 01:48, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The draft I have in mind would go something like this (not fully polished):
Again, stick with what happened then, forgot about 2008-level issues. This whole article only describes what happened in 1981-1999, never later. Wasted Time R ( talk) 04:27, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I still insist that this is not at all notable, and shouldn't be in the article at all. And no, I don't care how interesting the South American press in 2008 find it; I don't know how much they know about US congressmen's function, and what is or isn't normal for one to have done, especially 23 years ago.
Jossi, consensus is needed to insert material, not to remove it. Especially if it's new material, for which there has never been a consensus in the first place. -- Zsero ( talk) 06:34, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I've started looking at this, and made a couple of edits on it, but am scrunched on time again. On problem is that it's a bit too long, for the weighting it deserves. Another is, I don't understand why you don't say that McCain publicized Merino's statement. That's what the Herald is saying, per your quote from it ("During a visit this month, Rep. John McCain, R-Ariz., met with navy commander Adm. Jose Toribio Merino and quoted him as saying that he would vote against Pinochet's nomination to continue as president. The air force and national police commanders share that position, according to several Chilean political leaders who have spoken with them.") and it speaks to McCain's credit (by publicizing it, he holds Merino's feet to the fire). Another is the notion that you can't meet with both the junta and with opposition leaders. Well, the Ambasssador could do both a number of times, and Kennedy couldn't. That gives us only two data points, not enough to establish this inference here. More later. Wasted Time R ( talk) 12:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
The summary looks is looking good, but for some reason the material about he reception of the declassification of these documents in the Latin American press were deleted. I have restored these. I would welcome tweaks to the sentence, but not its outright deletion.
≈ jossi ≈
(talk) 18:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
(undent)Thanks for the translator. The material that I have recently inserted into the article was intended to summarize the sentence you added. As I said, the "warm and friendly" and the "secret" stuff is already summarized in the present article. I think that the news sources currently cited in the article cover everything that you want. Here is what the article currently says:
In December 1985, McCain visited Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet and junta member Admiral José Toribio Merino.[42][43] McCain told the U.S. Embassy in Santiago that both meetings were friendly and warm, but described Pinochet as obsessed about the dangers of communism and likened him to the John Birch Society.[44] Merino's statement to McCain that the junta would not support a Pinochet bid to remain president was made publicly known,[45] but McCain’s meeting with Pinochet was not declassified until 2008.[42][46] During that period when McCain visited Chile, the Reagan Administration was supporting restoration of democracy in Chile, for example by trying to persuade Pinochet to step aside.[47] McCain later called upon the Chilean government to respect the upcoming Chilean national plebiscite of 1988.[48]
The current footnotes include "CIPER Chile » Blog Archive » La desconocida cita entre John McCain y Pinochet" (in Spanish). Centro de Investigación e Información Periodística" and also include "Revelan inédita cita entre McCain y Pinochet en 1985, Los Tiempos". Ferrylodge ( talk) 19:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I have re-read the paragraph and still feel that it does not present the controversial meeting in the proper way. It needs work, and I will attempt to add some more text for NPOV later on. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, I renew my objection to any mention of this at all, but the consensus is clearly against me. I still don't see, though, why the mere fact that it was widely reported in the South American press 23 years later is at all relevant to this article. As FL says, the purpose of footnotes is so readers can verify that the article's claims are true, not to list every source that has the same information. -- Zsero ( talk) 00:54, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:United States Senate career of Huey Long which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 05:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)