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Why on earth is it relevant what a widely-despised fringe group says? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.214.132 ( talk) 09:10, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Per NY Times, 2008 Jan 8, she is 47, and they include a pic that makes her look more that age. She probably should have an updated pic.
--
Jerzy•
t 19:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible for some one to add her name's pronunciation in .ogg voice format? Just like ex-Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin were you could find an Icon before his name for pronunciation. I would like to know how her name is pronounced correctly. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.240.64 ( talk) 10:09, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
agreed. 98.196.78.26 ( talk) 00:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
That bottom section reads like a news bulletin - it definitely needs finessing. Biruitorul 21:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
It was quite pointed and moving. Some mention of it should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.248.11 ( talk • contribs)
Personally, I don't like Livni, but the new 'main picture' of her is horrendous, not just the way she looks, but also overexposed too. Does not do justice to WP. -- Shuki 23:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
please see hebrew profile here. Apparently, her grandmother on her father's side. -- Shuki 18:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I had to reverse an edit describing Livni as Acting Prime Minister. The last I checked Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was still in good health, performing his powers and duties. GoodDay 21:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Olmert is acting Prime Minister until she forms a government. She is not acting PM. (Sep 24, 2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Worldwright ( talk • contribs) 14:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- No, Olmert is the Interim Prime Minister. Livni remains the designated Acting Prime Minister in case Olmert is incapacitated. Try reading Deputy leaders of Israel. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 15:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
If you look up the Wikipedia entry on Israel's Acting Prime Minister ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deputy_leaders_of_Israel#Acting_Prime_Minister), it describes it as a post in which one would take power were the PM to be incapacitated. On the same page, it describes Vice Prime Minister as an entirely different post, currently held by one Haim Ramon. I have no knowledge myself, but if that page is accurate, you should undo your reverse and fix the references to Livni as Vice Prime Minister. -Rojo
- There is no vice prime minister in Israel. Leaders in a Number two position might be an acting prime minister (who will stand in for an incapacitated prime minister, in the event of illness, etc.) or a deputy prime minister (I'm not sure what that position entails, either - mainly, it's a title). -- Gilabrand ( talk) 08:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if that's true, than this page needs some fixing, as it still describes Livni as Vice Prime Minister of Israel. This strikes me as a problem, as Livni is a figure of no small import (which is not to say that I have anything but contempt for her politics). -Rojo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.173.216 ( talk) 09:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
She is NOT the acting prime minister of Israel! Even if Olmert will resign this Sunday, still he'll be the prime minister of an interim government. 20:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- The confusion is because Israel uses (or translates) the terms somewhat differently from other countries. In Israel the "Acting Prime Minister" is the person who designated as the one who will take over running the government if the Prime Minister is incapacitated - but this designation is used before then so they are sort of a "Stand-in Apparent". (Whereas in other countries the "Acting Prime Minister" only refers to them when they're actually minding the shop.) This is different from the posts of Deputy Prime Minister and Vice Prime Minister - see
Deputy leaders of Israel for the whole situation.
Timrollpickering (
talk) 13:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the translation problem is one that I have been calling attention to for awhile (see
Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) The literal translation of the phrase that describes Livni's position is something like "Prime Minister's place-filler." (Someone who knows Hebrew, please confirm if you can.) I see no reason why that should be translated into English as "Acting Prime Minister." It really is not proper English and is confusing (see above and the discussions at
Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) "Vice Prime Minister" would be a much more accurate translation. "Vice" is the term most often used in English to describe the person who will take over from another person if necessary (in fact "vice" came into use for this purpose because it was Latin for "in place of".) I do realize there is another Israeli government position that is translated into English as Vice Prime Minister (sometimes Vice Premier), namely the position recently held by Shimon Peres and then by Haim Ramon, but maybe that also should be translated as something else. Can any of the Hebrew-speakers tell us what that position's literal translation is? And what about what we call "Deputy Prime Minister" -- which seems to be yet another misnomer, because "deputy" also implies "second", which is not the case, as the "Deputy Prime Ministers" are really no higher than fourth in the hierarchy. I am not suggesting that Wikipedia adopt some rogue translation that nobody else uses, but it would be nice if someone got the translation right.
6SJ7 (
talk) 00:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's Acting Prime Minister - this is the term the Knesset, Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post use. The fact that it may confuse some people is not a reason to change - Wikipedia is not dumbed down. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 11:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the translation problem is one that I have been calling attention to for awhile (see
Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) The literal translation of the phrase that describes Livni's position is something like "Prime Minister's place-filler." (Someone who knows Hebrew, please confirm if you can.) I see no reason why that should be translated into English as "Acting Prime Minister." It really is not proper English and is confusing (see above and the discussions at
Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) "Vice Prime Minister" would be a much more accurate translation. "Vice" is the term most often used in English to describe the person who will take over from another person if necessary (in fact "vice" came into use for this purpose because it was Latin for "in place of".) I do realize there is another Israeli government position that is translated into English as Vice Prime Minister (sometimes Vice Premier), namely the position recently held by Shimon Peres and then by Haim Ramon, but maybe that also should be translated as something else. Can any of the Hebrew-speakers tell us what that position's literal translation is? And what about what we call "Deputy Prime Minister" -- which seems to be yet another misnomer, because "deputy" also implies "second", which is not the case, as the "Deputy Prime Ministers" are really no higher than fourth in the hierarchy. I am not suggesting that Wikipedia adopt some rogue translation that nobody else uses, but it would be nice if someone got the translation right.
6SJ7 (
talk) 00:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
it should be mentioned in the article that her father was an IZL member who was arrested and sentenced for his "activities". -- Severino ( talk) 16:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- The articles does say that her father was an Irgun member. Since he has his own article, mentioning his "activities" on his daughter's article would be undue. -- Nudve ( talk) 17:07, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
does one know if she has ever dissociated from her father? -- Severino ( talk) 19:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- No, on the contrary 20:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freearmy ( talk • contribs)
- Both of her parents were active members of Irgun, a terrorist organization known for mistreatment of Palestinians. Is there any evidence that her upbringing has adversely influenced her attitude towards Palestinians? Logicman1966 ( talk) 13:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- They were Jewish. There is no such thing as an "Palestinian" nationality, no mather what they tell you (and there will never be). ( SebastianGS ( talk) 22:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC))
- Palestinian Jew. -- Shuki ( talk) 08:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- Jews living in that area have never referred to themselves as "Palestinian Jews" though and neither has anyone else. That page is not good. As I said, the term is made up. Plus why wold she "love" all "Palestinians" just because her parents were "Palestinian" (which they were not)? That is like saying just because I am Swedish I love all Swedes, which I do not. ( SebastianGS ( talk) 17:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC))
- Without moving this discussion into what is a Palestinian, pre-48 did call themselves Palestinians, and there was even an English daily called the Palestine Post. I've seen some documentation in a museum where the Jews specifically used the term Palestinian with regards to residents of Hebron (Jews and Arabs) because it pissed off the Arabs who could not stand being called 'Palestinian'. FWIW dude, my original reply to POV-happy Logicman1966 and Severino was somewhat sarcastic. Sorry you did not get the attempted humour at their insistance to add some indirect info into a personal article/bio. -- Shuki ( talk) 21:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, prior to 1964 the Jews were the Palestinians. The KGB gave Arafat the idea to call 'his' Arabs Palestinians.
- Ahh, so you were sarcastic. Okay. ( SebastianGS ( talk) 09:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC))
- Shuki, your sarcasm towards fellow editors is inappropriate and rude. Also your "POV-happy" comment directed at me is incorrect; please read my original post. I'll re-state my argument so you can understand it - (1) Livni is a prominent figure in Israeli politics (2) an important issue in Israeli politics is resolving the conflict with the Palestinians (3) both of Livni's parents were active members of Irgun (4) Irgun was known for its mistreatment of Palestinians.
- Therefore, we have a situation where Livni will be in a position to take action on the Palestinians situation, having being brought up in an anti-Palestinian environment. My question was : is there any evidence either way (positive or negative) of her approach towards the Palestinians? Logicman1966 ( talk) 00:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
interesting when two like minded persons try to rewrite history and in doing so don't understand each other: one claims that israelis are the real palestinians, the other denies in his response that there exists something palestinian...ontopic: the fact that she never dissociated from her terroristic parents is an important point to understand livnis background and career. -- Severino ( talk) 18:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Is hardly relevant and was ad hominem, hence belongs in Gerald Kaufman and not in this entry. In general, if one wishes to report on the criticism of Livni then it should be edited properly and partitioned into subjects (.e.g criticism emanating from the Gaza operation etc.). Mashkin ( talk) 14:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}} "Livni is a vegetarian since age 12" should be "Livni has been a vegetarian since the age of 12", thank-you.
Canuck-qw (
talk) 02:31, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Done (already) –
Capricorn42 (
talk) 09:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
This article probably needs to be updated now that elections have taken place, and should continue to be updated as post-election events unfold. Tad Lincoln ( talk) 06:26, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Bayonet isn't the same as Operation Bayonet?
I just removed the reference that Livni was involved in Operation Bayonet. The citation doesn't indicate that it's the same thing.
Temporal User (
Talk) 23:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- I am personally unaware of a separate Bayonet entity. News agency often get these things wrong and I assumed that what they were calling the elite hit squad Bayonet in Paris was in fact the same thing as Operation Bayonet which reputedly continued in operation into the 1980's (it would seem odd to have two separate entities working in the same city but named the same). Still, as you indicate, the citation does not specifically reference Operation Bayonet, so I understand the change.
The Original Historygeek (
talk) 05:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, now here is an interesting article- http://www.theage.com.au/news/tv-reviews/munich--operation-bayonet/2006/09/04/1157222058004.html- a review of a documentary of Operation Bayonet which specifically refers to the unit involved in that operation also as Bayonet. Makes sense that the two are one and the same. The Original Historygeek ( talk) 05:33, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Will you still acting as POV Livni fans and try to censor the the criticism by British MP Sir Gerald Kaufman
British Member of Parliament Sir Gerald Kaufman, who is raised as an Orthodox Jew criticized Tzipi Livni's father Eitan Livni, Irgun and Israeli government harshly, on his 15 Jan 2009 speech at House of Commons.
"The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews. Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern Gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah's previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat's death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed. [1] [2]"
The statement is directly related to Tzipi Livni, her father, foundation of Israel, the actions of armed gangs that founded it along with Irgun, which the father of Tzipi Livni was a senior commander, along with attitude of current government which Tzipi Livni is an important part of and its political mistakes. So trying to censor this statement is not just wrong, but also acting POV as a Livni fan. You may trim it, but deleting it completely is impossible, since Sir Gerald Kaufman is a leading politician in British Labour Party, where he accomplished being shadow ministers more than once, and with his 30 year political career. Kasaalan ( talk) 09:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- No, this statement is not directly related to Tzipi Livni. It criticizes her father and Israeli policies, as part of an anti-Israeli speech by a politician - nothing particularly notbale about it, and certainly nothing that belongs an an encyclopedic article about her.
NoCal100 (
talk) 13:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Are you sure. Because "The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews. Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern Gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin." quote directly critizes her, her father's operations, so focuses her double standards publicly. To be not able to get it maybe someone should be extremely POV. Also after that he focuses on Irgun's actions in which her father was not only a member, but a senior commander. So claiming this is not relevant to her is not true at all. So your claim is basically false.
Kasaalan (
talk) 14:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I am quite sure. It criticizes her father, and the Irgun, and the current Israeli government. It is a political speech by an anti-Israeli politician, which does not belong in a BLP.
NoCal100 (
talk) 14:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Not really, this is directly and strictly related, showing the double standard she use currently. The passage critizes her claims, her goverment, her father, and the armed organizations her father was an executive of. Wasn't she the foreign minister of Israel during the Gaza strike, claiming '"her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists."' So she is part of the government, opposition leader or not. This is encyclopedic content, also the facts Gerald Kaufman said can be proven any time. He accuses her double standards on terrorism, and no insult is involved, so not related to the biography of a living person in any way.
Kasaalan (
talk) 14:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- The comments on Irgun or her father are simply irrelevant. What is left is one politician saying another politician has double standards. Such accusations are a dime a dozen. They are trite and wholly non-notable. Please stop edit warring over this, and edit in accordance with policy.
NoCal100 (
talk) 15:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- You are even trying to remove this info on his father's page, even claiming he is not responsible for Irgun's actions where he was a member as senior commander, so how can you be even more POV than this. So a shadow minister of British parliament is non-notable, so you claim even a newspaper article is more notable than a
Shadow minister of British Parliement. The both politician are literally equal as ranking terms. Non-notability is false claim. His accusations are based on historical facts, that anyone can't deny.
Kasaalan (
talk) 18:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kaufman is notable as a British MP, and accordingly, has his own article. That does not make everything he says notable on every wiki article, and specifically, his accusing another politician of double standards is not notable - such accusations are trite, and every politician says similar things about their political opponents.
NoCal100 (
talk) 01:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your claim is false, they are not opponent politicians. He makes a clear speech on recent strike on Gaza by name, as a world humanitarian issue, where he directly criticized her for her stand against Hamas, where he depits her father, her father's armed gang where he was a chief officer, acted in a similar manner, including public bombings, and armed gangs role in foundation of Israel.
Kasaalan (
talk) 09:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- They are most clearly political opponents. Having one politician criticize another politician over a policy they disagree about is not notable. (sidenote: repeatedly making your arguments in bold font does not actually make the argument stronger. You should give up that practice) NoCal100 ( talk) 15:14, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your claim is false, they are not opponent politicians. He makes a clear speech on recent strike on Gaza by name, as a world humanitarian issue, where he directly criticized her for her stand against Hamas, where he depits her father, her father's armed gang where he was a chief officer, acted in a similar manner, including public bombings, and armed gangs role in foundation of Israel.
Kasaalan (
talk) 09:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kaufman is notable as a British MP, and accordingly, has his own article. That does not make everything he says notable on every wiki article, and specifically, his accusing another politician of double standards is not notable - such accusations are trite, and every politician says similar things about their political opponents.
NoCal100 (
talk) 01:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- You are even trying to remove this info on his father's page, even claiming he is not responsible for Irgun's actions where he was a member as senior commander, so how can you be even more POV than this. So a shadow minister of British parliament is non-notable, so you claim even a newspaper article is more notable than a
Shadow minister of British Parliement. The both politician are literally equal as ranking terms. Non-notability is false claim. His accusations are based on historical facts, that anyone can't deny.
Kasaalan (
talk) 18:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- The comments on Irgun or her father are simply irrelevant. What is left is one politician saying another politician has double standards. Such accusations are a dime a dozen. They are trite and wholly non-notable. Please stop edit warring over this, and edit in accordance with policy.
NoCal100 (
talk) 15:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Not really, this is directly and strictly related, showing the double standard she use currently. The passage critizes her claims, her goverment, her father, and the armed organizations her father was an executive of. Wasn't she the foreign minister of Israel during the Gaza strike, claiming '"her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists."' So she is part of the government, opposition leader or not. This is encyclopedic content, also the facts Gerald Kaufman said can be proven any time. He accuses her double standards on terrorism, and no insult is involved, so not related to the biography of a living person in any way.
Kasaalan (
talk) 14:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I am quite sure. It criticizes her father, and the Irgun, and the current Israeli government. It is a political speech by an anti-Israeli politician, which does not belong in a BLP.
NoCal100 (
talk) 14:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Are you sure. Because "The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews. Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern Gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin." quote directly critizes her, her father's operations, so focuses her double standards publicly. To be not able to get it maybe someone should be extremely POV. Also after that he focuses on Irgun's actions in which her father was not only a member, but a senior commander. So claiming this is not relevant to her is not true at all. So your claim is basically false.
Kasaalan (
talk) 14:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Political opponents, how they become opponents, since they don't even enter the same elections. Also since they are opponents in similar rank, when wikipedia began not taking words of opponents' critism even if they based on historical facts, can you please prove any part of the speech is incorrect against Livni. Whether as a summary or as a more broad quote, the criticism should take place. The criticism is notable, reliable and verifiable, and you have no right to censor it anyway. If you would ask a better wikifying then quote, maybe you would be right, but trying to remove a criticism fully, is not a correct action.
- I stress some main points, in bold for people that don't read the whole discussion. Kasaalan ( talk) 21:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Also editors trying to remove info in Eitan Livni page for the speech is "a criticism of Tzipi, not him", yet in Tzipi Livni page they remove info for "this belongs in Eitan Livni, not here". That is illogical. So first decide, is this info about Tzipi Livni, Eitan Livni, Irgun, foundation of Israel, Israel Government, Hamas or all of them. Kasaalan ( talk) 21:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- And Kaufman is not alone afterall,
Journalist calls Livni 'terrorist' during press conference on Gaza operation Haaretz
Kasaalan (
talk) 21:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Political opponents don't have to contest the same election, nor even be in the same country. Hugo Chavez is a political opponent of George Bush, Alexander Dubček was a political opponent of Leonid Brezhnev. There is nothing notable about a politician accusing another politician of double standards. NoCal100 ( talk) 22:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
So in George W. Bush article, it is clearly stated which political opponents criticized him. Of course George Bush page has a tight length limitation.
Bush was described as having especially close personal relationships with Tony Blair and Vicente Fox, although formal relations were sometimes strained.[300][301][302] Other leaders, such as Afghan president Hamid Karzai,[303] Ugandan president Yoweri Museveni,[304] Spanish prime minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero,[305] and Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez,[306] have openly criticized the president. Later in Bush's presidency, tensions arose between himself and Vladimir Putin, which has led to a cooling of their relationship.[307]
Is that enough proof for you to not delete the criticism of Gerald Kaufman. Longer or shorther, this speech has to be added. Kasaalan ( talk) 15:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you want to add a short sentence that, similar to the above example, says "Politicians such as British MP Kaufman, have openly criticized Livni" - I don't think I'll object. We can probably remove the lengthy quote from Amre Moussa , and say "During the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, Livni was criticized by Arab League Chairman Amre Moussa and British MP Kaufman, who accused her of double standards.
NoCal100 (
talk) 18:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- Which lengthy quote. Only 1 sentence that summarizes the criticism exist, and 1 sentence is never long, also the page has no space issue like George Bush article. If you in favor of keeping sentences like "Raised an ardent nationalist, Livni has become one her nation's leading voices for the two-state solution. In Israel she has earned a reputation as honest, clean, and sticking to her principles." even in the lead, or like "Czech foreign minister Karel Schwarzenberg. "You all know my commitment to peace between Israel and its neighbors and to the two-state solution, a commitment shared with the majority of the Israeli public," the opposition chief said. "I believe that this kind of attitude, one which directly links an upgrade in relations with regional diplomatic progress, is overlooking the substantial gains that the upgrade could provide both to the people of Israel and the people of Europe." in the main body, you have to balance the article with some criticism. I will mention Gerald Kaufman's speech with 1 or 2 sentence at least, and that is not long.
Kasaalan (
talk) 20:12, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you want something similar to the Bush example above - no quotes, just names of critics - I am fine with it. Quotes from political speeches, by Kaufman or Moussa are not appropriate for an encyclopedia.
NoCal100 (
talk) 20:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- They are strictly relevant. You didn't even reply my above question. You try to keep pro political arguments like "Czech foreign minister Karel Schwarzenberg. "You all know my commitment to peace between Israel and its neighbors and to the two-state solution, a commitment shared with the majority of the Israeli public," the opposition chief said. "I believe that this kind of attitude, one which directly links an upgrade in relations with regional diplomatic progress, is overlooking the substantial gains that the upgrade could provide both to the people of Israel and the people of Europe." yet try to delete critic speeches, that is simply POV. You want to mention names of the critics, but not their criticism.
Kasaalan (
talk) 20:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- I am supportive of editing this article in accordance with common practice on WP, as illustrated by the example you provide from the Bush article- mention prominent critics, and perhaps what they are critical of - but an encyclopedia is not the place for lengthy quotes from these politicians. That is what their respective parliaments are for. NoCal100 ( talk) 03:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- They are strictly relevant. You didn't even reply my above question. You try to keep pro political arguments like "Czech foreign minister Karel Schwarzenberg. "You all know my commitment to peace between Israel and its neighbors and to the two-state solution, a commitment shared with the majority of the Israeli public," the opposition chief said. "I believe that this kind of attitude, one which directly links an upgrade in relations with regional diplomatic progress, is overlooking the substantial gains that the upgrade could provide both to the people of Israel and the people of Europe." yet try to delete critic speeches, that is simply POV. You want to mention names of the critics, but not their criticism.
Kasaalan (
talk) 20:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you want something similar to the Bush example above - no quotes, just names of critics - I am fine with it. Quotes from political speeches, by Kaufman or Moussa are not appropriate for an encyclopedia.
NoCal100 (
talk) 20:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- Which lengthy quote. Only 1 sentence that summarizes the criticism exist, and 1 sentence is never long, also the page has no space issue like George Bush article. If you in favor of keeping sentences like "Raised an ardent nationalist, Livni has become one her nation's leading voices for the two-state solution. In Israel she has earned a reputation as honest, clean, and sticking to her principles." even in the lead, or like "Czech foreign minister Karel Schwarzenberg. "You all know my commitment to peace between Israel and its neighbors and to the two-state solution, a commitment shared with the majority of the Israeli public," the opposition chief said. "I believe that this kind of attitude, one which directly links an upgrade in relations with regional diplomatic progress, is overlooking the substantial gains that the upgrade could provide both to the people of Israel and the people of Europe." in the main body, you have to balance the article with some criticism. I will mention Gerald Kaufman's speech with 1 or 2 sentence at least, and that is not long.
Kasaalan (
talk) 20:12, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
References
"Gov't Position"? PluniAlmoni ( talk) 20:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's not clear what you are asking. If you are referring to the info box and questioning whether "Opposition Leader" is a "government position", first of all it says "gov't role", not "gov't position", I think "role" is a little broader. Second, "government" is (it seems) being used in its broadest sense here, more the way it is used in the U.S. (where it means any position in the executive, legislative or judicial branches) than the way it is used in Israel, where I believe it is usually used to mean just the Cabinet. According to the article Leader of the Opposition (Israel) this is an official position, recognized by Israeli law. So I think "gov't role" is close enough for an infobox, where there really isn't a lot of room for nuance or explanation. 6SJ7 ( talk) 19:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
According to this, NoCal was one of a series of sockpuppets. Might be worth looking out what changes he made to the article and seeing whether they in fact belong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.67.40 ( talk) 21:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
"they risk being arrested on charges of alleged war crimes"
The use of "alleged" here is redundant since their is no such charge as an "alleged war crime". You can always infer that if someone is charged there is an allegation against them - warranted or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.51.7 ( talk) 18:29, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I've marked this section as POV, as it only includes the views of opponents of the warrant (mainly members of the UK and Israeli governments). There is no coverage of the views of the supporters of the warrant - for example those who applied for it. I'm not familiar enough with the events, which is why I haven't fixed it myself. Cynical ( talk) 14:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
- Completely agree. A large part of the UK population (possibly even a majority) broadly supported the issuing of the arrest warrant, which you'd never guess from the article. "Chagrined British officials" is hardly a NPOV phrase. The whole article reads like a hagiography but any changes will just be reverted by activists. I've learned to distrust any WP article about any right wing politician. -- Ef80 ( talk) 14:16, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
"In Israel she has earned a reputation as honest, clean, and sticking to her principles." Do other politicians have things like that written on their Wikipedia pages? It doesn't seem appropriate to me. 99.237.3.66 ( talk) 22:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Zipi Livnis new party is called "The Movement". But exactly this was also the name given by Adolf Hitler to his own party, the NSDAP.
The circle is now closed --- when will I be able to live in a world without jews, christians, muslims, protestants, capitalists, communists, Marxists, fascists, Nazis, Hollywood cinema, etc.?
All “humans” are still under the unconscious influence of these “jewish memes”. If there had been no Jews, there would have been no Nazis! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.0.201.24 ( talk) 23:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Orphaned references in Tzipi Livni
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Tzipi Livni's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Knesset":
- From Tal committee: "Lexicon of Terms: Tal Commission". The Knesset, The State of Israel.
- From Valley of Peace initiative: Address to the Knesset by Shimon Peres on assuming the office of President of Israel, MFA website, 7/15/07.
- From Shas: "Shas". The Knesset. Retrieved 21 December 2011.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Template:Infobox member of the Knesset has been
nominated for merging with
Template:Infobox officeholder. You are invited to comment on the discussion at
the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. --
Triggerhippie4 (
talk) 17:22, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
For the "Leader of Hatnuah" succession box Tzipi Livni is still down as incumbent, but Hatnauh's article indicates it is a party that no longer exists. Thus should this be changed to something else (eg None - party disbanded)? Dunarc ( talk) 22:46, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
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Why on earth is it relevant what a widely-despised fringe group says? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.16.214.132 ( talk) 09:10, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Per NY Times, 2008 Jan 8, she is 47, and they include a pic that makes her look more that age. She probably should have an updated pic.
--
Jerzy•
t 19:30, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Is it possible for some one to add her name's pronunciation in .ogg voice format? Just like ex-Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin were you could find an Icon before his name for pronunciation. I would like to know how her name is pronounced correctly. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.207.240.64 ( talk) 10:09, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
agreed. 98.196.78.26 ( talk) 00:44, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
That bottom section reads like a news bulletin - it definitely needs finessing. Biruitorul 21:18, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
It was quite pointed and moving. Some mention of it should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.248.11 ( talk • contribs)
Personally, I don't like Livni, but the new 'main picture' of her is horrendous, not just the way she looks, but also overexposed too. Does not do justice to WP. -- Shuki 23:47, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
please see hebrew profile here. Apparently, her grandmother on her father's side. -- Shuki 18:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I had to reverse an edit describing Livni as Acting Prime Minister. The last I checked Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was still in good health, performing his powers and duties. GoodDay 21:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Olmert is acting Prime Minister until she forms a government. She is not acting PM. (Sep 24, 2008) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Worldwright ( talk • contribs) 14:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- No, Olmert is the Interim Prime Minister. Livni remains the designated Acting Prime Minister in case Olmert is incapacitated. Try reading Deputy leaders of Israel. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 15:54, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
If you look up the Wikipedia entry on Israel's Acting Prime Minister ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deputy_leaders_of_Israel#Acting_Prime_Minister), it describes it as a post in which one would take power were the PM to be incapacitated. On the same page, it describes Vice Prime Minister as an entirely different post, currently held by one Haim Ramon. I have no knowledge myself, but if that page is accurate, you should undo your reverse and fix the references to Livni as Vice Prime Minister. -Rojo
- There is no vice prime minister in Israel. Leaders in a Number two position might be an acting prime minister (who will stand in for an incapacitated prime minister, in the event of illness, etc.) or a deputy prime minister (I'm not sure what that position entails, either - mainly, it's a title). -- Gilabrand ( talk) 08:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if that's true, than this page needs some fixing, as it still describes Livni as Vice Prime Minister of Israel. This strikes me as a problem, as Livni is a figure of no small import (which is not to say that I have anything but contempt for her politics). -Rojo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.21.173.216 ( talk) 09:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
She is NOT the acting prime minister of Israel! Even if Olmert will resign this Sunday, still he'll be the prime minister of an interim government. 20:09, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- The confusion is because Israel uses (or translates) the terms somewhat differently from other countries. In Israel the "Acting Prime Minister" is the person who designated as the one who will take over running the government if the Prime Minister is incapacitated - but this designation is used before then so they are sort of a "Stand-in Apparent". (Whereas in other countries the "Acting Prime Minister" only refers to them when they're actually minding the shop.) This is different from the posts of Deputy Prime Minister and Vice Prime Minister - see
Deputy leaders of Israel for the whole situation.
Timrollpickering (
talk) 13:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the translation problem is one that I have been calling attention to for awhile (see
Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) The literal translation of the phrase that describes Livni's position is something like "Prime Minister's place-filler." (Someone who knows Hebrew, please confirm if you can.) I see no reason why that should be translated into English as "Acting Prime Minister." It really is not proper English and is confusing (see above and the discussions at
Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) "Vice Prime Minister" would be a much more accurate translation. "Vice" is the term most often used in English to describe the person who will take over from another person if necessary (in fact "vice" came into use for this purpose because it was Latin for "in place of".) I do realize there is another Israeli government position that is translated into English as Vice Prime Minister (sometimes Vice Premier), namely the position recently held by Shimon Peres and then by Haim Ramon, but maybe that also should be translated as something else. Can any of the Hebrew-speakers tell us what that position's literal translation is? And what about what we call "Deputy Prime Minister" -- which seems to be yet another misnomer, because "deputy" also implies "second", which is not the case, as the "Deputy Prime Ministers" are really no higher than fourth in the hierarchy. I am not suggesting that Wikipedia adopt some rogue translation that nobody else uses, but it would be nice if someone got the translation right.
6SJ7 (
talk) 00:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's Acting Prime Minister - this is the term the Knesset, Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post use. The fact that it may confuse some people is not a reason to change - Wikipedia is not dumbed down. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 11:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the translation problem is one that I have been calling attention to for awhile (see
Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) The literal translation of the phrase that describes Livni's position is something like "Prime Minister's place-filler." (Someone who knows Hebrew, please confirm if you can.) I see no reason why that should be translated into English as "Acting Prime Minister." It really is not proper English and is confusing (see above and the discussions at
Talk:Deputy leaders of Israel.) "Vice Prime Minister" would be a much more accurate translation. "Vice" is the term most often used in English to describe the person who will take over from another person if necessary (in fact "vice" came into use for this purpose because it was Latin for "in place of".) I do realize there is another Israeli government position that is translated into English as Vice Prime Minister (sometimes Vice Premier), namely the position recently held by Shimon Peres and then by Haim Ramon, but maybe that also should be translated as something else. Can any of the Hebrew-speakers tell us what that position's literal translation is? And what about what we call "Deputy Prime Minister" -- which seems to be yet another misnomer, because "deputy" also implies "second", which is not the case, as the "Deputy Prime Ministers" are really no higher than fourth in the hierarchy. I am not suggesting that Wikipedia adopt some rogue translation that nobody else uses, but it would be nice if someone got the translation right.
6SJ7 (
talk) 00:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
it should be mentioned in the article that her father was an IZL member who was arrested and sentenced for his "activities". -- Severino ( talk) 16:28, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- The articles does say that her father was an Irgun member. Since he has his own article, mentioning his "activities" on his daughter's article would be undue. -- Nudve ( talk) 17:07, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
does one know if she has ever dissociated from her father? -- Severino ( talk) 19:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- No, on the contrary 20:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Freearmy ( talk • contribs)
- Both of her parents were active members of Irgun, a terrorist organization known for mistreatment of Palestinians. Is there any evidence that her upbringing has adversely influenced her attitude towards Palestinians? Logicman1966 ( talk) 13:45, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- They were Jewish. There is no such thing as an "Palestinian" nationality, no mather what they tell you (and there will never be). ( SebastianGS ( talk) 22:48, 23 September 2008 (UTC))
- Palestinian Jew. -- Shuki ( talk) 08:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
- Jews living in that area have never referred to themselves as "Palestinian Jews" though and neither has anyone else. That page is not good. As I said, the term is made up. Plus why wold she "love" all "Palestinians" just because her parents were "Palestinian" (which they were not)? That is like saying just because I am Swedish I love all Swedes, which I do not. ( SebastianGS ( talk) 17:50, 25 September 2008 (UTC))
- Without moving this discussion into what is a Palestinian, pre-48 did call themselves Palestinians, and there was even an English daily called the Palestine Post. I've seen some documentation in a museum where the Jews specifically used the term Palestinian with regards to residents of Hebron (Jews and Arabs) because it pissed off the Arabs who could not stand being called 'Palestinian'. FWIW dude, my original reply to POV-happy Logicman1966 and Severino was somewhat sarcastic. Sorry you did not get the attempted humour at their insistance to add some indirect info into a personal article/bio. -- Shuki ( talk) 21:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, prior to 1964 the Jews were the Palestinians. The KGB gave Arafat the idea to call 'his' Arabs Palestinians.
- Ahh, so you were sarcastic. Okay. ( SebastianGS ( talk) 09:57, 26 September 2008 (UTC))
- Shuki, your sarcasm towards fellow editors is inappropriate and rude. Also your "POV-happy" comment directed at me is incorrect; please read my original post. I'll re-state my argument so you can understand it - (1) Livni is a prominent figure in Israeli politics (2) an important issue in Israeli politics is resolving the conflict with the Palestinians (3) both of Livni's parents were active members of Irgun (4) Irgun was known for its mistreatment of Palestinians.
- Therefore, we have a situation where Livni will be in a position to take action on the Palestinians situation, having being brought up in an anti-Palestinian environment. My question was : is there any evidence either way (positive or negative) of her approach towards the Palestinians? Logicman1966 ( talk) 00:54, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
interesting when two like minded persons try to rewrite history and in doing so don't understand each other: one claims that israelis are the real palestinians, the other denies in his response that there exists something palestinian...ontopic: the fact that she never dissociated from her terroristic parents is an important point to understand livnis background and career. -- Severino ( talk) 18:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Is hardly relevant and was ad hominem, hence belongs in Gerald Kaufman and not in this entry. In general, if one wishes to report on the criticism of Livni then it should be edited properly and partitioned into subjects (.e.g criticism emanating from the Gaza operation etc.). Mashkin ( talk) 14:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
{{
editsemiprotected}} "Livni is a vegetarian since age 12" should be "Livni has been a vegetarian since the age of 12", thank-you.
Canuck-qw (
talk) 02:31, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Done (already) –
Capricorn42 (
talk) 09:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
This article probably needs to be updated now that elections have taken place, and should continue to be updated as post-election events unfold. Tad Lincoln ( talk) 06:26, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Bayonet isn't the same as Operation Bayonet?
I just removed the reference that Livni was involved in Operation Bayonet. The citation doesn't indicate that it's the same thing.
Temporal User (
Talk) 23:40, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- I am personally unaware of a separate Bayonet entity. News agency often get these things wrong and I assumed that what they were calling the elite hit squad Bayonet in Paris was in fact the same thing as Operation Bayonet which reputedly continued in operation into the 1980's (it would seem odd to have two separate entities working in the same city but named the same). Still, as you indicate, the citation does not specifically reference Operation Bayonet, so I understand the change.
The Original Historygeek (
talk) 05:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, now here is an interesting article- http://www.theage.com.au/news/tv-reviews/munich--operation-bayonet/2006/09/04/1157222058004.html- a review of a documentary of Operation Bayonet which specifically refers to the unit involved in that operation also as Bayonet. Makes sense that the two are one and the same. The Original Historygeek ( talk) 05:33, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Will you still acting as POV Livni fans and try to censor the the criticism by British MP Sir Gerald Kaufman
British Member of Parliament Sir Gerald Kaufman, who is raised as an Orthodox Jew criticized Tzipi Livni's father Eitan Livni, Irgun and Israeli government harshly, on his 15 Jan 2009 speech at House of Commons.
"The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews. Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern Gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin. Today, the current Israeli Government indicate that they would be willing, in circumstances acceptable to them, to negotiate with the Palestinian President Abbas of Fatah. It is too late for that. They could have negotiated with Fatah's previous leader, Yasser Arafat, who was a friend of mine. Instead, they besieged him in a bunker in Ramallah, where I visited him. Because of the failings of Fatah since Arafat's death, Hamas won the Palestinian election in 2006. Hamas is a deeply nasty organisation, but it was democratically elected, and it is the only game in town. The boycotting of Hamas, including by our Government, has been a culpable error, from which dreadful consequences have followed. [1] [2]"
The statement is directly related to Tzipi Livni, her father, foundation of Israel, the actions of armed gangs that founded it along with Irgun, which the father of Tzipi Livni was a senior commander, along with attitude of current government which Tzipi Livni is an important part of and its political mistakes. So trying to censor this statement is not just wrong, but also acting POV as a Livni fan. You may trim it, but deleting it completely is impossible, since Sir Gerald Kaufman is a leading politician in British Labour Party, where he accomplished being shadow ministers more than once, and with his 30 year political career. Kasaalan ( talk) 09:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- No, this statement is not directly related to Tzipi Livni. It criticizes her father and Israeli policies, as part of an anti-Israeli speech by a politician - nothing particularly notbale about it, and certainly nothing that belongs an an encyclopedic article about her.
NoCal100 (
talk) 13:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Are you sure. Because "The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews. Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern Gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin." quote directly critizes her, her father's operations, so focuses her double standards publicly. To be not able to get it maybe someone should be extremely POV. Also after that he focuses on Irgun's actions in which her father was not only a member, but a senior commander. So claiming this is not relevant to her is not true at all. So your claim is basically false.
Kasaalan (
talk) 14:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I am quite sure. It criticizes her father, and the Irgun, and the current Israeli government. It is a political speech by an anti-Israeli politician, which does not belong in a BLP.
NoCal100 (
talk) 14:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Not really, this is directly and strictly related, showing the double standard she use currently. The passage critizes her claims, her goverment, her father, and the armed organizations her father was an executive of. Wasn't she the foreign minister of Israel during the Gaza strike, claiming '"her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists."' So she is part of the government, opposition leader or not. This is encyclopedic content, also the facts Gerald Kaufman said can be proven any time. He accuses her double standards on terrorism, and no insult is involved, so not related to the biography of a living person in any way.
Kasaalan (
talk) 14:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- The comments on Irgun or her father are simply irrelevant. What is left is one politician saying another politician has double standards. Such accusations are a dime a dozen. They are trite and wholly non-notable. Please stop edit warring over this, and edit in accordance with policy.
NoCal100 (
talk) 15:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- You are even trying to remove this info on his father's page, even claiming he is not responsible for Irgun's actions where he was a member as senior commander, so how can you be even more POV than this. So a shadow minister of British parliament is non-notable, so you claim even a newspaper article is more notable than a
Shadow minister of British Parliement. The both politician are literally equal as ranking terms. Non-notability is false claim. His accusations are based on historical facts, that anyone can't deny.
Kasaalan (
talk) 18:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kaufman is notable as a British MP, and accordingly, has his own article. That does not make everything he says notable on every wiki article, and specifically, his accusing another politician of double standards is not notable - such accusations are trite, and every politician says similar things about their political opponents.
NoCal100 (
talk) 01:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your claim is false, they are not opponent politicians. He makes a clear speech on recent strike on Gaza by name, as a world humanitarian issue, where he directly criticized her for her stand against Hamas, where he depits her father, her father's armed gang where he was a chief officer, acted in a similar manner, including public bombings, and armed gangs role in foundation of Israel.
Kasaalan (
talk) 09:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- They are most clearly political opponents. Having one politician criticize another politician over a policy they disagree about is not notable. (sidenote: repeatedly making your arguments in bold font does not actually make the argument stronger. You should give up that practice) NoCal100 ( talk) 15:14, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Your claim is false, they are not opponent politicians. He makes a clear speech on recent strike on Gaza by name, as a world humanitarian issue, where he directly criticized her for her stand against Hamas, where he depits her father, her father's armed gang where he was a chief officer, acted in a similar manner, including public bombings, and armed gangs role in foundation of Israel.
Kasaalan (
talk) 09:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kaufman is notable as a British MP, and accordingly, has his own article. That does not make everything he says notable on every wiki article, and specifically, his accusing another politician of double standards is not notable - such accusations are trite, and every politician says similar things about their political opponents.
NoCal100 (
talk) 01:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- You are even trying to remove this info on his father's page, even claiming he is not responsible for Irgun's actions where he was a member as senior commander, so how can you be even more POV than this. So a shadow minister of British parliament is non-notable, so you claim even a newspaper article is more notable than a
Shadow minister of British Parliement. The both politician are literally equal as ranking terms. Non-notability is false claim. His accusations are based on historical facts, that anyone can't deny.
Kasaalan (
talk) 18:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
- The comments on Irgun or her father are simply irrelevant. What is left is one politician saying another politician has double standards. Such accusations are a dime a dozen. They are trite and wholly non-notable. Please stop edit warring over this, and edit in accordance with policy.
NoCal100 (
talk) 15:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Not really, this is directly and strictly related, showing the double standard she use currently. The passage critizes her claims, her goverment, her father, and the armed organizations her father was an executive of. Wasn't she the foreign minister of Israel during the Gaza strike, claiming '"her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists."' So she is part of the government, opposition leader or not. This is encyclopedic content, also the facts Gerald Kaufman said can be proven any time. He accuses her double standards on terrorism, and no insult is involved, so not related to the biography of a living person in any way.
Kasaalan (
talk) 14:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I am quite sure. It criticizes her father, and the Irgun, and the current Israeli government. It is a political speech by an anti-Israeli politician, which does not belong in a BLP.
NoCal100 (
talk) 14:38, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Are you sure. Because "The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni asserts that her Government will have no dealings with Hamas, because they are terrorists. Tzipi Livni's father was Eitan Livni, chief operations officer of the terrorist Irgun Zvai Leumi, who organised the blowing-up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, in which 91 victims were killed, including four Jews. Israel was born out of Jewish terrorism. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Jewish terrorists hanged two British sergeants and booby-trapped their corpses. Irgun, together with the terrorist Stern Gang, massacred 254 Palestinians in 1948 in the village of Deir Yassin." quote directly critizes her, her father's operations, so focuses her double standards publicly. To be not able to get it maybe someone should be extremely POV. Also after that he focuses on Irgun's actions in which her father was not only a member, but a senior commander. So claiming this is not relevant to her is not true at all. So your claim is basically false.
Kasaalan (
talk) 14:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
- Political opponents, how they become opponents, since they don't even enter the same elections. Also since they are opponents in similar rank, when wikipedia began not taking words of opponents' critism even if they based on historical facts, can you please prove any part of the speech is incorrect against Livni. Whether as a summary or as a more broad quote, the criticism should take place. The criticism is notable, reliable and verifiable, and you have no right to censor it anyway. If you would ask a better wikifying then quote, maybe you would be right, but trying to remove a criticism fully, is not a correct action.
- I stress some main points, in bold for people that don't read the whole discussion. Kasaalan ( talk) 21:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Also editors trying to remove info in Eitan Livni page for the speech is "a criticism of Tzipi, not him", yet in Tzipi Livni page they remove info for "this belongs in Eitan Livni, not here". That is illogical. So first decide, is this info about Tzipi Livni, Eitan Livni, Irgun, foundation of Israel, Israel Government, Hamas or all of them. Kasaalan ( talk) 21:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- And Kaufman is not alone afterall,
Journalist calls Livni 'terrorist' during press conference on Gaza operation Haaretz
Kasaalan (
talk) 21:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
- Political opponents don't have to contest the same election, nor even be in the same country. Hugo Chavez is a political opponent of George Bush, Alexander Dubček was a political opponent of Leonid Brezhnev. There is nothing notable about a politician accusing another politician of double standards. NoCal100 ( talk) 22:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
So in George W. Bush article, it is clearly stated which political opponents criticized him. Of course George Bush page has a tight length limitation.
Bush was described as having especially close personal relationships with Tony Blair and Vicente Fox, although formal relations were sometimes strained.[300][301][302] Other leaders, such as Afghan president Hamid Karzai,[303] Ugandan president Yoweri Museveni,[304] Spanish prime minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero,[305] and Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez,[306] have openly criticized the president. Later in Bush's presidency, tensions arose between himself and Vladimir Putin, which has led to a cooling of their relationship.[307]
Is that enough proof for you to not delete the criticism of Gerald Kaufman. Longer or shorther, this speech has to be added. Kasaalan ( talk) 15:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you want to add a short sentence that, similar to the above example, says "Politicians such as British MP Kaufman, have openly criticized Livni" - I don't think I'll object. We can probably remove the lengthy quote from Amre Moussa , and say "During the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, Livni was criticized by Arab League Chairman Amre Moussa and British MP Kaufman, who accused her of double standards.
NoCal100 (
talk) 18:49, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- Which lengthy quote. Only 1 sentence that summarizes the criticism exist, and 1 sentence is never long, also the page has no space issue like George Bush article. If you in favor of keeping sentences like "Raised an ardent nationalist, Livni has become one her nation's leading voices for the two-state solution. In Israel she has earned a reputation as honest, clean, and sticking to her principles." even in the lead, or like "Czech foreign minister Karel Schwarzenberg. "You all know my commitment to peace between Israel and its neighbors and to the two-state solution, a commitment shared with the majority of the Israeli public," the opposition chief said. "I believe that this kind of attitude, one which directly links an upgrade in relations with regional diplomatic progress, is overlooking the substantial gains that the upgrade could provide both to the people of Israel and the people of Europe." in the main body, you have to balance the article with some criticism. I will mention Gerald Kaufman's speech with 1 or 2 sentence at least, and that is not long.
Kasaalan (
talk) 20:12, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you want something similar to the Bush example above - no quotes, just names of critics - I am fine with it. Quotes from political speeches, by Kaufman or Moussa are not appropriate for an encyclopedia.
NoCal100 (
talk) 20:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- They are strictly relevant. You didn't even reply my above question. You try to keep pro political arguments like "Czech foreign minister Karel Schwarzenberg. "You all know my commitment to peace between Israel and its neighbors and to the two-state solution, a commitment shared with the majority of the Israeli public," the opposition chief said. "I believe that this kind of attitude, one which directly links an upgrade in relations with regional diplomatic progress, is overlooking the substantial gains that the upgrade could provide both to the people of Israel and the people of Europe." yet try to delete critic speeches, that is simply POV. You want to mention names of the critics, but not their criticism.
Kasaalan (
talk) 20:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- I am supportive of editing this article in accordance with common practice on WP, as illustrated by the example you provide from the Bush article- mention prominent critics, and perhaps what they are critical of - but an encyclopedia is not the place for lengthy quotes from these politicians. That is what their respective parliaments are for. NoCal100 ( talk) 03:45, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- They are strictly relevant. You didn't even reply my above question. You try to keep pro political arguments like "Czech foreign minister Karel Schwarzenberg. "You all know my commitment to peace between Israel and its neighbors and to the two-state solution, a commitment shared with the majority of the Israeli public," the opposition chief said. "I believe that this kind of attitude, one which directly links an upgrade in relations with regional diplomatic progress, is overlooking the substantial gains that the upgrade could provide both to the people of Israel and the people of Europe." yet try to delete critic speeches, that is simply POV. You want to mention names of the critics, but not their criticism.
Kasaalan (
talk) 20:30, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you want something similar to the Bush example above - no quotes, just names of critics - I am fine with it. Quotes from political speeches, by Kaufman or Moussa are not appropriate for an encyclopedia.
NoCal100 (
talk) 20:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- Which lengthy quote. Only 1 sentence that summarizes the criticism exist, and 1 sentence is never long, also the page has no space issue like George Bush article. If you in favor of keeping sentences like "Raised an ardent nationalist, Livni has become one her nation's leading voices for the two-state solution. In Israel she has earned a reputation as honest, clean, and sticking to her principles." even in the lead, or like "Czech foreign minister Karel Schwarzenberg. "You all know my commitment to peace between Israel and its neighbors and to the two-state solution, a commitment shared with the majority of the Israeli public," the opposition chief said. "I believe that this kind of attitude, one which directly links an upgrade in relations with regional diplomatic progress, is overlooking the substantial gains that the upgrade could provide both to the people of Israel and the people of Europe." in the main body, you have to balance the article with some criticism. I will mention Gerald Kaufman's speech with 1 or 2 sentence at least, and that is not long.
Kasaalan (
talk) 20:12, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
References
"Gov't Position"? PluniAlmoni ( talk) 20:45, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- It's not clear what you are asking. If you are referring to the info box and questioning whether "Opposition Leader" is a "government position", first of all it says "gov't role", not "gov't position", I think "role" is a little broader. Second, "government" is (it seems) being used in its broadest sense here, more the way it is used in the U.S. (where it means any position in the executive, legislative or judicial branches) than the way it is used in Israel, where I believe it is usually used to mean just the Cabinet. According to the article Leader of the Opposition (Israel) this is an official position, recognized by Israeli law. So I think "gov't role" is close enough for an infobox, where there really isn't a lot of room for nuance or explanation. 6SJ7 ( talk) 19:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
According to this, NoCal was one of a series of sockpuppets. Might be worth looking out what changes he made to the article and seeing whether they in fact belong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.67.40 ( talk) 21:30, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
"they risk being arrested on charges of alleged war crimes"
The use of "alleged" here is redundant since their is no such charge as an "alleged war crime". You can always infer that if someone is charged there is an allegation against them - warranted or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.51.7 ( talk) 18:29, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I've marked this section as POV, as it only includes the views of opponents of the warrant (mainly members of the UK and Israeli governments). There is no coverage of the views of the supporters of the warrant - for example those who applied for it. I'm not familiar enough with the events, which is why I haven't fixed it myself. Cynical ( talk) 14:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
- Completely agree. A large part of the UK population (possibly even a majority) broadly supported the issuing of the arrest warrant, which you'd never guess from the article. "Chagrined British officials" is hardly a NPOV phrase. The whole article reads like a hagiography but any changes will just be reverted by activists. I've learned to distrust any WP article about any right wing politician. -- Ef80 ( talk) 14:16, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
"In Israel she has earned a reputation as honest, clean, and sticking to her principles." Do other politicians have things like that written on their Wikipedia pages? It doesn't seem appropriate to me. 99.237.3.66 ( talk) 22:26, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
Zipi Livnis new party is called "The Movement". But exactly this was also the name given by Adolf Hitler to his own party, the NSDAP.
The circle is now closed --- when will I be able to live in a world without jews, christians, muslims, protestants, capitalists, communists, Marxists, fascists, Nazis, Hollywood cinema, etc.?
All “humans” are still under the unconscious influence of these “jewish memes”. If there had been no Jews, there would have been no Nazis! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.0.201.24 ( talk) 23:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Orphaned references in Tzipi Livni
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Tzipi Livni's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Knesset":
- From Tal committee: "Lexicon of Terms: Tal Commission". The Knesset, The State of Israel.
- From Valley of Peace initiative: Address to the Knesset by Shimon Peres on assuming the office of President of Israel, MFA website, 7/15/07.
- From Shas: "Shas". The Knesset. Retrieved 21 December 2011.
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Template:Infobox member of the Knesset has been
nominated for merging with
Template:Infobox officeholder. You are invited to comment on the discussion at
the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. --
Triggerhippie4 (
talk) 17:22, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
For the "Leader of Hatnuah" succession box Tzipi Livni is still down as incumbent, but Hatnauh's article indicates it is a party that no longer exists. Thus should this be changed to something else (eg None - party disbanded)? Dunarc ( talk) 22:46, 1 April 2021 (UTC)
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