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I'd like get this article to WP:Good Article. Over the past couple months I have been updating this article with in-line citations. I have also tagged a number of items with "citation needed," especially in the "Death & disappearance" section. My plan (in a week or two) is to remove any statements that currently have a "citation needed" tag next to it, and possibly consolidate the "death" and "legacy" sections, then seek a peer review or copyedit.
If there are sources for some of the items that I have tagged, I will be more than happy to add the inline cites if you point me in the right direction. If there are any other issues with the article from those familiar with the subject, this might be a good place to bring them up. Thanks, Mitico ( talk) 12:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I just work briefly on the page, mostly to the infobox to make it more like other ACW articles. Expansion is needed on his Civil War career (shocked to see the accusation of drunkenness at Sharpsburg and wounding there not mentioned!). I can provide the ranks and their dates no problem, but more info is needed as to his actual participation in the fights. Kresock ( talk) 23:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
One minor minor thing. Is there any reason that the pronunciation of the name is in the family section, rather at the very top of the article when his name is first mentioned? That seems more intuitive, but if there is a reason not to, feel free to ignore this. Buirechain ( talk) 00:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Added rank info & dates, and some other adjustments. I put in the {{{Fact}}} near the bit about Mitchel because at first glance it could read as Original Research. I could not find out the nature of his injuries at First Bull Run, so this can be added later. I still have two major concerns with the Civil War section:
I'll do the rewrite of these sections if you want. Kresock ( talk) 16:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I put in his western service with dates and cited it. Also:
I think while there are a lot of people here bringing his US connection up to a good standard, his significance to the Irish struggle against Britain has been neglected.. the real significance of his life seems to me that he was an Irish patriot who was transported, fought in a foreign country as part of a greater cause he believed in, and died young, before he or we could know what he would do next. I feel his life needs to be interpreted in terms of his Irish origins and causes - remember that he did not leave home voluntarily, he was an exile. Rcbutcher ( talk) 14:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I have updated some of the information on the early life section (up to the image you uploaded), and created a page on wikiquote. I will expand the rest of the section over the coming days, likewise the wikiquote and wikisource links. If you would like me to expand more on any aspect, please let me know? -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
“Regarding Trinity College as anti-Irish and anti- Catholic, his father sent him to Clongowes and Stonyhurst for his education. In the first institution he was bred in ignorance of his country and all that related to it—in the second his preceptors, with some success, laboured to overcome what was termed his “ horrible Irish brogue,” and succeeded in sending him back to his own country with an Anglo-Irish accent which grated on the ears of his countrymen when he addressed them from the tribune, until the eloquence and native fire of the orator swept the gift of the English school from their jarred consciousness.” Pg. iv - v
In addition, on a cursory look through some books, I have three sources with reference to his English accent. One by Duffy, Meagher’s contemporary and two secondary sources. If you wish to have them cited, I’m happy to oblige. What source out of interest, are you citing, I may just have it?
To balance it out we could include something from “until the eloquence and native fire of the orator swept the gift of the English school from their jarred consciousness”?
Hi, I have a question, what is the point of including his father's feelings towards Trinity College? Also if his father did regard it as anti Catholic etc. why was he sent to Clongowes (Catholic granted,) but seems to have failed to educate him about his country ("bred in ignorance of his country") and then an English school which seemed to want to Anglizise (horrible Irish brogue etc) him further? Reading the article it just seems confusing to me. In my opinion the Trinity part could be simply left out as it seems set a confusing tone for the paragraph. As an aside Trinity did also produce half a century earlier Wolfe Tone a legend in Irish Nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.208.91 ( talk) 21:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
How Meagher’s father felt is very relevant. Trinity at this time was no longer a Protestant institution, but it was still anti-Catholic. Catholics did send their sons there, but Meagher’s father would not. I think the source you cited at the end of the section Bruce 2006, p 55 would support the inclusion of his fathers views as having relevance (apples not falling far from the tree) as to the effect on his son.
This addition however, is not reflected by they source I used. Meagher, who considered the brogue as a symbol of Irish heritage, would soon overcome his acquired accent. Ua Cellaigh pg 152-3 Despite his formal education lacking in Irish studies and even attempts to overcome native country's brogue, Meagher would become a key figures in Irish nationalism. Bruce 2006, p 55
Meagher never lost his acquired accent; it was his eloquence which won over his audience.
I intended to expand the early life section, using a number of sources. Duffy's is somewhat critical of Meagher and should be included though I would suggest caution. This will include his fathers views and the effect on young Meagher. The last two lines will have to be changed to reflect what the sources actually say I think?-- Domer48 'fenian' 21:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
On the issue with Trinity; there is this quote from Duffy, which may help, though how Ireland was at this time and how it was governed is a fact of life. All of which influenced Meagher.
“He [Meagher] had not had the advantage of university training; his father shared with many Catholic fathers a profound distrust of the only university in Ireland [Trinity]— an institution which tempted Catholic students to apostasy by reserving its prizes for apostates” Duffy, FYIH, pg. 8
Likewise the effect of his manner, and accent on his contemporaries, and their first impressions of him. These characteristics they described as “defects.” I consider the term “grating” as aptly descriptive when we review the above quotations, likewise, we could attribute the term to the author, though in my opinion the quotes mentioned above support its inclusion.
On a comparable note, the following sentences caught my attention; “Meagher was injured when he fell off his horse. There were reports that Meagher had been drunk, causing the fall.” ref name=bruce120 Bruce 2006, p 120, and in the same paragraph, “This was not the first time that Meagher faced this accusation, as it was reported that he was drunk at the First Battle of Bull Run." Bruce 2006, p 89 The high number of casualties, and the rumours of being drunk on the battlefield, lead to increased criticism of Meagher's command ability.” ref name=bruce120. Now I have no real problem with all this, after all we have the official report included “However, official reports from Maj. Gen. George B. McClellan indicated that Meagher's horse had been shot.” Wylie 2007, p 165, so we know who the official report is attributable too. I’d simply like to know were the “reports” “rumours” and “accusations” of drunkenness came from, epically when it is yet again mentioned in the “Disappearance and legacy” section “Some state that he had been drinking, and simply fell overboard.” Who are the “some”? Would the “some” and the source of the “rumours” and “accusations” include Mr Russell of the London Times, and if so, should this also be included? We know from reading Lyons pg. 20 that they were described as an "utter falsity." I simply raise these points in passing, as we have not reached those sections yet. I would not consider their inclusion as being a dig at Meagher’s character, as we will address them later, in detail.
Dispite this we are making progress-- Domer48 'fenian' 19:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Concerning Meagher and nationalism generally: From Christine Kinealy's "Repeal and Revolution. Ireland 1848. "....0n 17 March 1848, Meagher and some other leading Confederates shared a platform with Chartists in Manchester and Oldham. Their comments were revealing, in light of the Repeal movement's earlier antipathy to democracy, demonstrating how much the [1848] French revolution had radicalised politics in Ireland and in Britain. They also demonstrated that a new alliance was being forged, which cut across previous antagonisms. When a leading Confederate, Michael Doheny, appeared alongside Feargus O'Connor at Oldham Edge, he proclaimed himself to be . 'an Irish Chartist'. More tellingly, Meagher admitted to the 8,000 people who were gathered in the Free Trade Hall in Manchester that he had previously been wrong in his political stances. stating:
"We have confused the English government with the English people … The disenfranchised millions have been held responsible for the privileged hundreds ... We retract every word that galled your manly pride, and here, in the name of the Irish people, we claim an alliance with democracy in England … I do not disguise my true sentiments, I renounce my false ones … the revolution of Paris has made me a democrat." (page 148) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PV Nevin ( talk • contribs) 11:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
"Born in No. 19, The Mall, Waterford City, Ireland, his father, Thomas Meagher (1796–1874), was a wealthy retired merchant, who was twice Mayor of the City, which he also represented in Parliament from August, 1847 to March, 1857"
I have made an attempt at clarity, let me know what you think? -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I think there are two options with this list. 1) Keep it as it is & when we are "complete" delete the items that have been used as a reference in the article, or 2) incorporate the entire list into the "Books by Young Irelanders" template.
FYI - Instead of using == headers at additional reading a ;(semicolon) just prior to the word may be used to separate these sections. (For an example, see the general references.) The advantage of this would be that the "Additional reading" section will not show up in the Table of Contents. Mitico ( talk) 12:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Mitico ( talk) 12:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I notice that all of the sponsoring groups for this article have it listed as "B" class. Have these been revised recently? This is a damn good article on a fascinating subject (I had no idea of the level of involvement of the Irish in the American Civil War!).
Given my limited knowledge of article grading standards, does this still qualify as a "B" class? I think there is some excellent DYK potential for this article, at the very least.
Vulture19 ( talk) 15:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The section https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cardiff_Giant states
"In 1899 a petrified man found in Fort Benton, Montana was "identified" as U.S. Civil War General Thomas Francis Meagher. Meagher had drowned in the Missouri River two years previously. The petrified man was transported to New York for exhibition."
Comments? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.222.100 ( talk) 10:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
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Thomas Francis Meagher received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on August 3, 2018. |
I'd like get this article to WP:Good Article. Over the past couple months I have been updating this article with in-line citations. I have also tagged a number of items with "citation needed," especially in the "Death & disappearance" section. My plan (in a week or two) is to remove any statements that currently have a "citation needed" tag next to it, and possibly consolidate the "death" and "legacy" sections, then seek a peer review or copyedit.
If there are sources for some of the items that I have tagged, I will be more than happy to add the inline cites if you point me in the right direction. If there are any other issues with the article from those familiar with the subject, this might be a good place to bring them up. Thanks, Mitico ( talk) 12:44, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I just work briefly on the page, mostly to the infobox to make it more like other ACW articles. Expansion is needed on his Civil War career (shocked to see the accusation of drunkenness at Sharpsburg and wounding there not mentioned!). I can provide the ranks and their dates no problem, but more info is needed as to his actual participation in the fights. Kresock ( talk) 23:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
One minor minor thing. Is there any reason that the pronunciation of the name is in the family section, rather at the very top of the article when his name is first mentioned? That seems more intuitive, but if there is a reason not to, feel free to ignore this. Buirechain ( talk) 00:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Added rank info & dates, and some other adjustments. I put in the {{{Fact}}} near the bit about Mitchel because at first glance it could read as Original Research. I could not find out the nature of his injuries at First Bull Run, so this can be added later. I still have two major concerns with the Civil War section:
I'll do the rewrite of these sections if you want. Kresock ( talk) 16:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
I put in his western service with dates and cited it. Also:
I think while there are a lot of people here bringing his US connection up to a good standard, his significance to the Irish struggle against Britain has been neglected.. the real significance of his life seems to me that he was an Irish patriot who was transported, fought in a foreign country as part of a greater cause he believed in, and died young, before he or we could know what he would do next. I feel his life needs to be interpreted in terms of his Irish origins and causes - remember that he did not leave home voluntarily, he was an exile. Rcbutcher ( talk) 14:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I have updated some of the information on the early life section (up to the image you uploaded), and created a page on wikiquote. I will expand the rest of the section over the coming days, likewise the wikiquote and wikisource links. If you would like me to expand more on any aspect, please let me know? -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:25, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
“Regarding Trinity College as anti-Irish and anti- Catholic, his father sent him to Clongowes and Stonyhurst for his education. In the first institution he was bred in ignorance of his country and all that related to it—in the second his preceptors, with some success, laboured to overcome what was termed his “ horrible Irish brogue,” and succeeded in sending him back to his own country with an Anglo-Irish accent which grated on the ears of his countrymen when he addressed them from the tribune, until the eloquence and native fire of the orator swept the gift of the English school from their jarred consciousness.” Pg. iv - v
In addition, on a cursory look through some books, I have three sources with reference to his English accent. One by Duffy, Meagher’s contemporary and two secondary sources. If you wish to have them cited, I’m happy to oblige. What source out of interest, are you citing, I may just have it?
To balance it out we could include something from “until the eloquence and native fire of the orator swept the gift of the English school from their jarred consciousness”?
Hi, I have a question, what is the point of including his father's feelings towards Trinity College? Also if his father did regard it as anti Catholic etc. why was he sent to Clongowes (Catholic granted,) but seems to have failed to educate him about his country ("bred in ignorance of his country") and then an English school which seemed to want to Anglizise (horrible Irish brogue etc) him further? Reading the article it just seems confusing to me. In my opinion the Trinity part could be simply left out as it seems set a confusing tone for the paragraph. As an aside Trinity did also produce half a century earlier Wolfe Tone a legend in Irish Nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.208.91 ( talk) 21:01, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
How Meagher’s father felt is very relevant. Trinity at this time was no longer a Protestant institution, but it was still anti-Catholic. Catholics did send their sons there, but Meagher’s father would not. I think the source you cited at the end of the section Bruce 2006, p 55 would support the inclusion of his fathers views as having relevance (apples not falling far from the tree) as to the effect on his son.
This addition however, is not reflected by they source I used. Meagher, who considered the brogue as a symbol of Irish heritage, would soon overcome his acquired accent. Ua Cellaigh pg 152-3 Despite his formal education lacking in Irish studies and even attempts to overcome native country's brogue, Meagher would become a key figures in Irish nationalism. Bruce 2006, p 55
Meagher never lost his acquired accent; it was his eloquence which won over his audience.
I intended to expand the early life section, using a number of sources. Duffy's is somewhat critical of Meagher and should be included though I would suggest caution. This will include his fathers views and the effect on young Meagher. The last two lines will have to be changed to reflect what the sources actually say I think?-- Domer48 'fenian' 21:19, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
On the issue with Trinity; there is this quote from Duffy, which may help, though how Ireland was at this time and how it was governed is a fact of life. All of which influenced Meagher.
“He [Meagher] had not had the advantage of university training; his father shared with many Catholic fathers a profound distrust of the only university in Ireland [Trinity]— an institution which tempted Catholic students to apostasy by reserving its prizes for apostates” Duffy, FYIH, pg. 8
Likewise the effect of his manner, and accent on his contemporaries, and their first impressions of him. These characteristics they described as “defects.” I consider the term “grating” as aptly descriptive when we review the above quotations, likewise, we could attribute the term to the author, though in my opinion the quotes mentioned above support its inclusion.
On a comparable note, the following sentences caught my attention; “Meagher was injured when he fell off his horse. There were reports that Meagher had been drunk, causing the fall.” ref name=bruce120 Bruce 2006, p 120, and in the same paragraph, “This was not the first time that Meagher faced this accusation, as it was reported that he was drunk at the First Battle of Bull Run." Bruce 2006, p 89 The high number of casualties, and the rumours of being drunk on the battlefield, lead to increased criticism of Meagher's command ability.” ref name=bruce120. Now I have no real problem with all this, after all we have the official report included “However, official reports from Maj. Gen. George B. McClellan indicated that Meagher's horse had been shot.” Wylie 2007, p 165, so we know who the official report is attributable too. I’d simply like to know were the “reports” “rumours” and “accusations” of drunkenness came from, epically when it is yet again mentioned in the “Disappearance and legacy” section “Some state that he had been drinking, and simply fell overboard.” Who are the “some”? Would the “some” and the source of the “rumours” and “accusations” include Mr Russell of the London Times, and if so, should this also be included? We know from reading Lyons pg. 20 that they were described as an "utter falsity." I simply raise these points in passing, as we have not reached those sections yet. I would not consider their inclusion as being a dig at Meagher’s character, as we will address them later, in detail.
Dispite this we are making progress-- Domer48 'fenian' 19:20, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Concerning Meagher and nationalism generally: From Christine Kinealy's "Repeal and Revolution. Ireland 1848. "....0n 17 March 1848, Meagher and some other leading Confederates shared a platform with Chartists in Manchester and Oldham. Their comments were revealing, in light of the Repeal movement's earlier antipathy to democracy, demonstrating how much the [1848] French revolution had radicalised politics in Ireland and in Britain. They also demonstrated that a new alliance was being forged, which cut across previous antagonisms. When a leading Confederate, Michael Doheny, appeared alongside Feargus O'Connor at Oldham Edge, he proclaimed himself to be . 'an Irish Chartist'. More tellingly, Meagher admitted to the 8,000 people who were gathered in the Free Trade Hall in Manchester that he had previously been wrong in his political stances. stating:
"We have confused the English government with the English people … The disenfranchised millions have been held responsible for the privileged hundreds ... We retract every word that galled your manly pride, and here, in the name of the Irish people, we claim an alliance with democracy in England … I do not disguise my true sentiments, I renounce my false ones … the revolution of Paris has made me a democrat." (page 148) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PV Nevin ( talk • contribs) 11:29, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
"Born in No. 19, The Mall, Waterford City, Ireland, his father, Thomas Meagher (1796–1874), was a wealthy retired merchant, who was twice Mayor of the City, which he also represented in Parliament from August, 1847 to March, 1857"
I have made an attempt at clarity, let me know what you think? -- Domer48 'fenian' 19:21, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
I think there are two options with this list. 1) Keep it as it is & when we are "complete" delete the items that have been used as a reference in the article, or 2) incorporate the entire list into the "Books by Young Irelanders" template.
FYI - Instead of using == headers at additional reading a ;(semicolon) just prior to the word may be used to separate these sections. (For an example, see the general references.) The advantage of this would be that the "Additional reading" section will not show up in the Table of Contents. Mitico ( talk) 12:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Mitico ( talk) 12:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
I notice that all of the sponsoring groups for this article have it listed as "B" class. Have these been revised recently? This is a damn good article on a fascinating subject (I had no idea of the level of involvement of the Irish in the American Civil War!).
Given my limited knowledge of article grading standards, does this still qualify as a "B" class? I think there is some excellent DYK potential for this article, at the very least.
Vulture19 ( talk) 15:24, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
The section https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cardiff_Giant states
"In 1899 a petrified man found in Fort Benton, Montana was "identified" as U.S. Civil War General Thomas Francis Meagher. Meagher had drowned in the Missouri River two years previously. The petrified man was transported to New York for exhibition."
Comments? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.120.222.100 ( talk) 10:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
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