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Unless you are going to say how they are interrelated, it might be better to start with the line "The 2018 book The Holocaust and the Nakba makes the case that "unless we can hold these two moments in our hearts and minds as part of the same story, there can be no moving forward in the seemingly unmovable conflict that is Israel-Palestine".
Just a suggestion. Selfstudier ( talk) 11:15, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Shrike: Have you actually read into those two Esther Webman works beyond the online synopses? Neither mention the Nakba in their summaries and both seem to be more about polemicizing discussion of the Holocaust (the first in relation to denial; the second in relation to metaphoric usage), rather than assessing the potential meaningfulness of thematic parallels between the Holocaust and the Nakba. Iskandar323 ( talk) 09:09, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Though it did not directly link the Holocaust to the nakba, it did speak of the Holocaust as something the Palestinians by their resistance were moving to bring upon themselves.
"(The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio. . .Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events. Israeli minister warns of Palestinian 'holocaust' The Guardian 29 February 2008
I suggest something like the following be added (glossing those texts affirming Israelis use it exclusively of Jews. The Guardian adds (efn footnote?)
After a tit-for-change exchange of missile and rocket fire between Israeli and Gaza forces, which resulted in the death of 32 Palestinians and 1 Israeli, Israel’s deputy defense minister Matan Vilnai spoke of the possible eventuality of Palestinians bringing about on themselves a ‘bigger shoah’ Nishidani ( talk) 20:15, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
WW2 Holocaust history is present in Israeli thinking of the Palestinians as a problem-The Israeli captain who analysed how to fix the Gazan population by drawing on Nazi tactics against the Jews in the Waraw ghetto being an egregious instance (Haaretz ca 2000-2001. No longer available but I have it somewhere in my archive) Nishidani ( talk) 20:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Raphael Lemkin, the inventor of the concept of genocide, supported Zionism and likely considered the Nakba justified in line with mainstream Zionist views. Although he championed the independence of "small nations", especially the Jews, Lemkin did not believe that insufficiently civilized nations such as Palestinian Arabs should be granted independence Nishidani ( talk) 07:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
I see now that there's a mistake, changed nations to groups. ( t · c) buidhe 08:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)Like Lauterpacht and other political Zionists covered in this chapter, he [Lemkin] was well disposed to the British Empire as a vehicle for civilizational development, meaning the rule of law and protection of small nations, above all Jews. Such protection did not extend to granting independence to groups like Palestinian Arabs who were not considered sufficiently developed to qualify as “nations.” Settler colonialism under the aegis of liberal empire was the vehicle of civilizational progress
I think this is a basically very fair article, and therefore I accepted it. I decided to refrain from detailed copyediting. This does no mean that it's unnecessary, but that te overall editing for conciseness and the avoidance of duplication is more than I can undertake at the moment.
More important, the title is unsatisfactory: Beginning the title with "The" makes it almost unfindable. The key substantive words should be in the title, especially the beginning of the title. I'm not sure what would be best, but as a first step I have moved it to "Holocaust and Nakba--a comparison". I leave further action to others.
I am aware of the editing restrictions in this area; I am also aware of the current arb com case. I'm refraining from getting involved at the moment--as I mention on my user talk page, I am dealing with very time --consuming medical problems involving a member of my family--I don't want to make the details public, but they will require the majority of both my time and my energy for the indefinite future. I'm trying nonetheless to keep some contact with WP. I would also rather not mention in public my view of the underlying real world situation, and my general political orientation that has led me to them, If you'd like to discuss, we could do it off wiki. DGG ( talk ) 04:54, 22 February 2023 (UTC) Reply
Comparisons between the Holocaust and the Nakba? The multi dash in the title to me is very non-standard. nableezy - 15:34, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Netiva Ben-Yehuda, an iconic Palmach fighter who took part in the battle for Tiberias, was uncompromising in her description of the events. “Such pictures were known to us. It was the way things had always been done to us, in the Holocaust, throughout the world war, and all the pogroms. Oy, how well we knew those pictures. And here – here, we were doing these awful things to others,” she wrote. “We loaded everything onto the van – with a terrible trembling of the hands. And that wasn’t because of the weight. Even now my hands are shaking, just from writing about it." [1]
" Pearson had written that "in preventing Arab refugees from returning to their native land, the Jews may be subject to the same kind of criticism for which I and others have criticised intolerant Gentiles . . . Now we have a situation in which the Jews have done to others what Hitler, in a sense, did to them!" -Benny Morris, The birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949, page 276
IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 15:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”
1949 The First Israelis by Tom Segev: Reports of atrocities committed by Israeli soldiers during the course of the conquest, and also afterwards, preoccupied the government in several of its sessions. The information which reached the ministers shocked them and led to one of the most severe comments ever made in a Cabinet meeting. Aharon Cizling, Minister of Agriculture, said
I’ve received a letter on the subject. I must say that I have known what things have been like for some time and I have raised the issue several times already here. However after reading this letter I couldn’t sleep all night. I felt the things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here. I could not imagine where we came from and to where are we going... I often disagreed when the term Nazi was applied to the British. I wouldn’t like to use the term, even though the British committed Nazi crimes. But now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken... Obviously we have to conceal these actions from the public, and I agree that we should not even reveal that we’re investigating them. But they must be investigated...
- IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 02:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Unless you are going to say how they are interrelated, it might be better to start with the line "The 2018 book The Holocaust and the Nakba makes the case that "unless we can hold these two moments in our hearts and minds as part of the same story, there can be no moving forward in the seemingly unmovable conflict that is Israel-Palestine".
Just a suggestion. Selfstudier ( talk) 11:15, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
@ Shrike: Have you actually read into those two Esther Webman works beyond the online synopses? Neither mention the Nakba in their summaries and both seem to be more about polemicizing discussion of the Holocaust (the first in relation to denial; the second in relation to metaphoric usage), rather than assessing the potential meaningfulness of thematic parallels between the Holocaust and the Nakba. Iskandar323 ( talk) 09:09, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Though it did not directly link the Holocaust to the nakba, it did speak of the Holocaust as something the Palestinians by their resistance were moving to bring upon themselves.
"(The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio. . .Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events. Israeli minister warns of Palestinian 'holocaust' The Guardian 29 February 2008
I suggest something like the following be added (glossing those texts affirming Israelis use it exclusively of Jews. The Guardian adds (efn footnote?)
After a tit-for-change exchange of missile and rocket fire between Israeli and Gaza forces, which resulted in the death of 32 Palestinians and 1 Israeli, Israel’s deputy defense minister Matan Vilnai spoke of the possible eventuality of Palestinians bringing about on themselves a ‘bigger shoah’ Nishidani ( talk) 20:15, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
WW2 Holocaust history is present in Israeli thinking of the Palestinians as a problem-The Israeli captain who analysed how to fix the Gazan population by drawing on Nazi tactics against the Jews in the Waraw ghetto being an egregious instance (Haaretz ca 2000-2001. No longer available but I have it somewhere in my archive) Nishidani ( talk) 20:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Raphael Lemkin, the inventor of the concept of genocide, supported Zionism and likely considered the Nakba justified in line with mainstream Zionist views. Although he championed the independence of "small nations", especially the Jews, Lemkin did not believe that insufficiently civilized nations such as Palestinian Arabs should be granted independence Nishidani ( talk) 07:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
I see now that there's a mistake, changed nations to groups. ( t · c) buidhe 08:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)Like Lauterpacht and other political Zionists covered in this chapter, he [Lemkin] was well disposed to the British Empire as a vehicle for civilizational development, meaning the rule of law and protection of small nations, above all Jews. Such protection did not extend to granting independence to groups like Palestinian Arabs who were not considered sufficiently developed to qualify as “nations.” Settler colonialism under the aegis of liberal empire was the vehicle of civilizational progress
I think this is a basically very fair article, and therefore I accepted it. I decided to refrain from detailed copyediting. This does no mean that it's unnecessary, but that te overall editing for conciseness and the avoidance of duplication is more than I can undertake at the moment.
More important, the title is unsatisfactory: Beginning the title with "The" makes it almost unfindable. The key substantive words should be in the title, especially the beginning of the title. I'm not sure what would be best, but as a first step I have moved it to "Holocaust and Nakba--a comparison". I leave further action to others.
I am aware of the editing restrictions in this area; I am also aware of the current arb com case. I'm refraining from getting involved at the moment--as I mention on my user talk page, I am dealing with very time --consuming medical problems involving a member of my family--I don't want to make the details public, but they will require the majority of both my time and my energy for the indefinite future. I'm trying nonetheless to keep some contact with WP. I would also rather not mention in public my view of the underlying real world situation, and my general political orientation that has led me to them, If you'd like to discuss, we could do it off wiki. DGG ( talk ) 04:54, 22 February 2023 (UTC) Reply
Comparisons between the Holocaust and the Nakba? The multi dash in the title to me is very non-standard. nableezy - 15:34, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
Netiva Ben-Yehuda, an iconic Palmach fighter who took part in the battle for Tiberias, was uncompromising in her description of the events. “Such pictures were known to us. It was the way things had always been done to us, in the Holocaust, throughout the world war, and all the pogroms. Oy, how well we knew those pictures. And here – here, we were doing these awful things to others,” she wrote. “We loaded everything onto the van – with a terrible trembling of the hands. And that wasn’t because of the weight. Even now my hands are shaking, just from writing about it." [1]
" Pearson had written that "in preventing Arab refugees from returning to their native land, the Jews may be subject to the same kind of criticism for which I and others have criticised intolerant Gentiles . . . Now we have a situation in which the Jews have done to others what Hitler, in a sense, did to them!" -Benny Morris, The birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949, page 276
IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 15:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: We have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?”
1949 The First Israelis by Tom Segev: Reports of atrocities committed by Israeli soldiers during the course of the conquest, and also afterwards, preoccupied the government in several of its sessions. The information which reached the ministers shocked them and led to one of the most severe comments ever made in a Cabinet meeting. Aharon Cizling, Minister of Agriculture, said
I’ve received a letter on the subject. I must say that I have known what things have been like for some time and I have raised the issue several times already here. However after reading this letter I couldn’t sleep all night. I felt the things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here. I could not imagine where we came from and to where are we going... I often disagreed when the term Nazi was applied to the British. I wouldn’t like to use the term, even though the British committed Nazi crimes. But now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken... Obviously we have to conceal these actions from the public, and I agree that we should not even reveal that we’re investigating them. But they must be investigated...
- IOHANNVSVERVS ( talk) 02:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)