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All jewish citizen of Bulgaria located on its territory (who were under the administrative jurisdiction of the Bulgarian government) were saved from extermination. There are a good number of historical references available to attach. Why does the article state that the victims in Bulgaria were "notably lower"? There are a good number of books written about that as well as historical publications. Please give the deserved credit to a country whose government and its official church managed to achieve something no other country did. Bulgaria is also in the official list of the countries who saved the Jews during WWII so please correct that and discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.91.45.231 ( talk) 15:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
In section "Poles and Slavs", it is stated that over 1 million Serbs was killed, following some quotation. However, the official scientific data (US and Yugoslav) is quoted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
There was 1 million TOTAL victims in ex-Yugoslavia, which is inhabited mostly by South Slavic nations. Demograpic loss of 1.7 mil. pople means that there would be 1.7 mil. pople more in ex-Yu if there was no war (dead + fall of birth rate due to war) and it is not counted as "war casualties".
A terrible and tragic theme like Holocaust is not a place for propaganda, neither is Wikipedia. It is unacceptable to use an artice like this to spread Serbian nationalist propaganda, which is used as "leverage" for Serbian crimes in Bosnia and Kosovo. Let those guys open up their wiki and write whatever they want there. Wikipedia principles are NPOV and verification, as far as I know - this means scientific data, not some article in nationalistic press.
I appeal to members who watch over Holocaust articles to fix these false data, to maintain dignity of Holocaust victims, and to preserve Holocaust deniers from using examples of such false data to support their outrageous claims of "exaggerated Holocaust numbers"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.252.151.134 ( talk) 10:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
EXCUSE ME BUT WHY IS THERE SOMETHING IN THIS ARTICLE ABOUT WHAT HITLER "ALLEGEDLY" SAID TO A JOURNALIST IN 1922?
Because I don't even think that hitler was sure he'd come to power in 1922, he just got out of prison.
The other thing is that the link of the alleged statement is coming from a dubious website that shows the quote and a pic of people hanging with an German , soldier, which is infact not a german uniform at all. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
72.211.128.183 (
talk) 09:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vsosin, you're making edits that are massively increasing the number of Soviet citizens believed to have died within Nazi concentration camps as part of the Holocaust (as opposed to being part of the war).
Could you please say here of each figure in the article that you are correcting, who your source is, and what that source says exactly? If you could do it one by one, that would be easier for the rest of us to follow. The problem is that you're trying to make significant changes to the figures all at once, and at least one of your sources is a non-specialist website. SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 00:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Good evening SV. I see your point and will include exact frases from the refereces that were includes. It is a very valid point. Let me just get into the libruary after holidays. Regarding, the overall civilian vicitims vs. Holocaust victims - that is not exactly what I am trying to do. Overall Soviet victims are well over 20 millions and of course do not fall under camp victims. The question of the Slavic victims of very political here in the USA. However, if you look into Nazi plans, you would see that Slavic people shared the same feature of racial inferiority as jewish in the Nazi eyes. 2/3 of their entire population should had been eradicated, so land could be repopulated by Germans. Please see [Racial policy of Nazi Germany]. The vital difference with jewish people was only that Soviet people could leave even their village; their were slaves in their own coutry (the had "propiska" - attachement to the place), designated for slauter by the goverment. Please let me grab the original so we could verify the exact wording and I even could scan and email to you part if you would wish. We should find a common groud. VS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsosin ( talk • contribs) 01:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This article only cover the Jewish and European version of Holocaust, but this event effected the whole world and world politics, so i request to add the opinions of other nations about this incident. like denial of Holocaust and creation of Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Farazilu ( talk • contribs) 03:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
there is no dachau disco on Emule...wei is it sow? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.245.50.140 ( talk) 01:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Whilst I certainly disagree with Faraz's view on this, would it hurt to have a short paragraph explaining that certain minorities still dispute the existence of the holocaust, although they are generally agreed to be plain wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.16.7.100 ( talk) 02:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure the views you describe are of bunch of folks not too well educated or people who want to believe in that. It is hard to imagine such ignorance in Europe and especially in Poland.-- Jacurek ( talk) 05:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that the articles of which the section on Jehovah's Witnesses is a summary disagree with this article about the number of victims: the full articles base themselves on a JW reference instead. Thus I included that opinion - on which probably such opinions as of a " Holocaust Resource Center" is based to that of the secondary source. I was just going to look at a discussion about the reason of the discrepancy betwen the conflicting Wikipedia articles when Crum375 reverted with teh claim that the other one is "scolarly" and presumably more reliable. However, he/she did not correct the other artices on which that section supposedly is based, nor did he/she motivate why only the one opinion should be considered to be more reliable or authorative. At the minumum this article should be consistent with the ones that give more details. Please clarify, thanks!
Note: it may be better to not just include but specify the conflict of opinions, as this discrepancy between the opinion of the group of victims and those who write about them is quite interesting and notable. Harald88 ( talk) 21:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Book: ed. M. Berenbaum, "A Mosaic of Victims. Non-Jews murdered by Nazis." - the book as you may call it of the most recognized in the area. Page 117: "All this, however, would remain an idle dream unless a planned policy of colonization and depopulation are carried out. Yes, a depolulation policy..." Page 118: "Germans were true to their policies. They depopulated the Ukraine though mass execution, deportations and famine. Page 140: " the scale of German extermination of the population of Soviet Republics:
Ukraine 4.0 million Belorussia 2.5 million Russian Federation 1.7 millions
And finally page 147 last paragraph: "it was not part of German Army tradition to kill defenseless prisoners of war by thousands ... The popular explanation is that the entire Wehrmacht had adopted the Nazi concept that all Soviet citizent are subhumans and that German soldiers acted accordignly. "
Please correct me if I am wrong: - Slaves (sovient) were mass killed for racial reasons. - Slaves were scheduled for complete anihilation (plan Leberbaum). They just couldn't plan right away as easy to kill 150 millions as 15 millinons (they planned in case of Jewish people). It just would unfeasable to do at once. - Slaves were killned in concentration camps (even Ukrainina presiden's father), forces labor camps, starved to death, burned alive in large numbers, shot, sterilized. - Total number of Slavic Holocaust (W. Churchill) 19.7 - 23.9 millions !!!!!!!!
Please let me know your opinion. my email if you need: vkilchyk@yahoo.ca VS
Thank you very much for yor useful comments on the Slavic death toll in the Holocaust Article. The small things that I wanted to clear a bit are the following: in my last comment I pointed out not the fuct of millions of Slavs killed in the concerations camps but rather that death of 4.5 - 8 millions of Slavs was racially motivated (both in the concentration camps, labor camps, their mass murders etc). All the references cited so far agreed on that. So if this fall under the definition of genocide/Holocaust this people should be included as a common group (just like jewish people not by their country of residence). I am not enforcing to the words killed in camps or Soviet people. I think Slavic victims would more correct. Now, the difference between the Jewish and Slavic people, as I see, is that the first froup was planned 2/3 killed and the rest eslaved (not just enslaved ! and most of the references along with a number of people killed stands for that), while the second group was supposed was to be completely eliminated. If you agree on that should we also say Slavic Holocaust and iclude this people in the artilce as a group ? Thank you, VSosin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsosin ( talk • contribs) 02:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
In the holocaust the nazi soldiers would also shave the jews heads and use the hair to stuff the mattress they slept on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.51.77.191 ( talk) 13:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I am new to this and not sure whether this belongs here or not but, I think that the number 11 million should be put first, then have it divided up into 6 million jews, 1 million gypsies etc. I had no idea there were like, 5 million non jewish victims and reading the opening paragraph I wouldnt have been educated at all. Sorry, I dont want to be offensive or nothing, just yeah, wondering if someone can update it maybe. 58.107.180.155 ( talk) 11:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure about most of what your talking about but... thanks! I only said 1 million gypsies as an example, im not sure how many were killed so sorry if i offended or anything. 58.107.180.155 ( talk) 10:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I have read the De Zayas's book. The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945, issued reports that detailed Allied war crimes. Joseph Goebbels used The Wehrmacht Bureau on War Crimes as a source to churn out atrocity propaganda. The recent post is blatant neo-Nazi propaganda.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Although many institutions and people were involved in identifying and the deportation of Jews, there is evidence that only a select few knew that the Jews were to be systematically exterminated. The Jews themselves, German citizens and citizens of occupied countries, German Police and even the notorious Gestapo were not aware of the fact that the Jews were rounded up to be murdered. [1] The situation has sometimes been compared with that of the 1941 systematic evacuation of the Japanese-American population to special internment camps. No American at the time expected their Japanese American neighbours were going to be gassed. Similarly, many Europeans thought the Jews were being sent to labour camps or even to a newly created Jewish state in the East and had few reasons to think otherwise. In Der SS-Staat, Professor Eugon Kogon, a former concentration-camp inmate, argues there was a succesful effort to keep knowledge of the Holocaust very limited. Though Wehrmacht soldiers sometimes witnessed the killings of Jews by SS-Einsatzgruppen, amidst total war there would have been no reason to think these were part of an official policy of exterminating Jews. [2]There is evidence only special SS and other personnel directly involved in the killings knew of the systematical nature and magnitude thereof and were effectively sworn to secrecy. During the Nuremberg Trials it appeared than even persons in senior government positions had no knowledge of what was going on, like the acquitted Nazi press secretary Hans Fritzsche. Another example is the testimony at Nuremberg by SS Judge Georg Konrad Morgen. Morgen had received reports on killings of Jews by the security police of Lublin and sought to persecute Lublin commander Christian Wirth, unaware that the killings were ordered from the very top of government. [3]
(unindent) I don't see de Zayas' lack of credentials as "Holocaust historian" to be a detriment to our using his research. I object to Slim Virgin's deletions. Binksternet ( talk) 00:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I undid the edit by Crum375, who stated: "per talk, it seems the only person who has actually read the book disagrees". However I am not quoting from the "The Wehrmacht Bureau on War Crimes" book, but from a 17 page article in The Historical Journal. In the article De Zayas uses his knowledge he gained from the research for his book, and summarizes what he thinks are the main points in the book. Because it is an article in a scientific magazine it should be sufficient to quote from the article, and not necessarily from the book. And there was a consensus that the new part would be included, just one person that did not recall what he read in the book. I hope the section won't be removed again or it'll become an edit-war. Wiki1609 ( talk) 12:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
De Zayas is a highly controversial author who takes reports from Nazi Germany at face value and doesn't review them critically. Also he is politically involved with some organisations in Germany such as BdV. His work as his been accused as focusing solely on German fate, sometimes close to revisionism, more can be read on discussion page in the article about him. Mind that the main article has been edited by some group of editors changing nicknames, with accusations issued that this might be the person himself. Altogether this is a highly controversial and certainly not mainstream author, with strong political views.-- Molobo ( talk) 16:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
http://www.tomhull.com/ocston/books/judt-postwar.php In November 1946, 37 per cent of Germans questioned in a survey of the American zone took the view that 'the extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was necessary for the security of Germans'.
So there is no question that support for such actions existed in significant numbers even after the war. -- Molobo ( talk) 17:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
This is just a point of clarification, but by Jews, does the article mean people who practiced Judiasm, or the nazi definition used by Eichmann that only required your grandmother to have practiced judiasm?( Lucas(CA) ( talk) 02:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC))
Why there is too much "favoritism" towards the jews and why it is "THE" holocaust, whilst there were many other genocides on different people around that time and even different nations almost half the world away. Also, why is the history of the Armenian massacre and the killing of the Russian Communists ignored even though it was happening at the same time =/?
So the next time someone uses the term "the holocaust" clarify their statement by saying, "Which holocaust? The armenian massacre, the Russian Communist slaughter, the Cambodian Massacre, the Darfur Conflict, Nazi Facist Slaughterers, or just our human instinct of killing people for the sake of superiority, dictatorship, or just plain war; of which has been going on since the beginning of human tribal wars."
I'm not a neo-nazi I'm just saying that this article doesn't sound neutral to me. I do not care about the history of the naming but the article sounds to favored to the Nazi German era.
-- µWiki Talk / Contributions (YouWiki) 23:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not pro-nazi but there has been some skeptism about the holocaust. Many question its truthfully and say that it never did happen and it is made for sympathy and to hide the truth. There is definitely bias in the citing of the event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.1.70 ( talk) 13:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Going back to the original question, it's reasonable to call this The Holocaust because the term Holocaust was coined for it. Before that, mass killings were called something else (massacre for example). Holocaust was used specifically to describe this set of killings. After that people used the term to refer to other killings (e.g. the Armenian Holocaust) as a comparison. But this is unquestionably the original. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 15:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I think another point to make: strictly by numbers (est. 17 to 26 million), the Nazi's killed a tremendous amount of people from a wide margin of races, religions, and people that just didn't fit their profile. Also, you can say "Armenian Holocaust" because it was the Armenians being targeted. But you can't say the Nazi Holocaust because it wasn't the Nazis being targeted, certainly! You can say the Jewish Holocaust, but then you get into complications of 'which one?', not to mention you would then marginalize all of the other ethnic, religious, gender, disabled, and national groups that were targets. I think THE is generally acceptable for this reason. I think the very reason you are arguing that 'THE Holocaust' seems to favor Jews is the very reason it should stand: it was not only Jews. littleone ( talk) 22:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Just reading through the article, there are several bits that are worded in a Jewish POV perspective. Obviously it's a difficult issue to approach because it was such a horrible event, but I think it would be nice to have a bit of a clean up. For examle:
"The strong Jewish sense of family solidarity meant that this was not an option for most Jews, who preferred to die together rather than be separated."
- there's little sentences like these that are unreferenced and more rhetoric than useful fact (I think every culture in the world has a strong sense of family solidarity) that give a more subjective perspective of the horror etc., which I'm not sure fits in with wikipedia (not contending whether it's true, but it would be more appropriate in say, a subjective / first person narrative of events). Anyway, I'm not experienced with wikipedia and don't want to be accused of vandalism, so I'll just leave the suggestion here? ( 144.32.155.5 ( talk) 00:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC))
Entry: HOLOCAUST Sub-chapter: Escapes, publication of news of the death camps (April–June 1944) Under the photograph: Rudolf Vrba]] (right) escaped from Auschwitz on April 7, 1944, bringing the first credible news to the world of the mass murder that was taking place here.
My comment: the first credible news were delivered to the world by Poles:
Witold Pilecki [he became the only known person to volunteer to be imprisoned at Auschwitz concentration camp. While there, he organized the resistance movement in the camp, and as early as 1940, informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz atrocities. He escaped in 1943 and took part in the Warsaw Uprising (August–October 1944). Pilecki was executed in 1948 by the communists. (etc., see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilecki)];
Jan Karski [In 1942 and 1943 Karski reported to the Polish government in exile and the Western Allies on the situation in Poland, especially the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto and the extermination camps. (etc., see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karski)];
and also by Jan Nowak-Jezioranski [He also served as an envoy between the commanders of the Home Army and the Polish Government in Exile and other allied governments. During his first trips to Sweden and Great Britain he informed the Western governments of the fate of Poland under German and Soviet occupation. He was also the first to report of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. During one of such missions, in July of 1944, he returned to Warsaw only a few days before the Warsaw Uprising broke out. (etc., see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Nowak-Jeziora%C5%84ski)]; —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.180.16.18 ( talk) 17:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed changed to include a notion about ethnically motivated Slavic deaths.
It is a largely ignored fact in the US that Nazi Germany had also a special racial policies towards Slavic people. The Slavs were called subhuman. Moreover, Nazi planned depopulation of the Slavic territories with Germans Lebensraum . M. Berenbaum, "A Mosaic of Victims. Non-Jews murdered by Nazis." Page 117 Nazi speech :
"...... All this, however, would remain an idle dream unless a planned policy of colonization and depopulation are carried out. Yes, a depopulation policy..."
Page 118:
"Germans were true to their policies. They depopulated the Ukraine though mass execution, deportations and famine.
Page 140:
" the scale of German extermination of the population of Soviet Republics: Ukraine 4.0 million Belorussia 2.5 million Russian Federation 1.7 millions"
Most of Soviet (again predominantly Slavic) millitary were not taken prisoners (killed instead) or put in the sepate from other POW's camps were there were killed throuh malnutrition and hard labor or put in the gas chambers. - the result of racil policy:
Page 147, last paragraph:
"... it was not part of German Army tradition to kill defenseless prisoners of war by thousands ... The popular explanation is that the entire Wehrmacht had adopted the Nazi concept that all Soviet citizen are subhumans and that German soldiers acted accordingly"
The plan included reduction of USSR population alone from over 70 millions to 30 millions
[Alexander Dallin, German Rule in Occupied Russia, 1941-1945: A Study in Occupation Policies (New York: Macmillan, 1957) esp. p 278]
So while it wasn't the "final solution", but the fact is that the plan of depopulation of Eastern Eurpe was documented and widely publicised. Most of the holocaust historian acknowledge the fact the large numbers of victims among the Slavic were the results of "special" racial policies.
(From earlier talk, from M. Barenbaum's book:)
"The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust mentions that Bohdan Wytwycky estimates 4.5 million Soviet civilian deaths that were racially motivated."
(Racially means as Slavs not as Jewish. Some authors use Soviet civilians instead of collective word Slavic as such term was not used in the USSR towards its population that was predominantly Slavic.)
Therefore, I suggest the following changes : -At the beginning of the article to change the phrase about the combined death toll to say that the number of victims is over 11 millions.
-To add in the section on Slavic death toll the info on the Nazi policy toward Slavs with references to their plan Lebensraum (wiki article) and books I used before. The reference (Table) should say that some authors suggest that a large part of the civilian and military death toll (4.5 - 8 millions) was planned and racially motivated extermination of the Slavic people.
VSosin
I believe that, aside from gay men, there were also instances of women being murdered as lesbians, classified by the Nazis as "anti-socials." I remember seeing something about it specifically at Dachau. Zhankfor
The vast majority of homosexual victims were males; lesbians were not subjected to systematic persecution. While lesbian bars were closed, few women are believed to have been arrested. Paragraph 175 did not mention female homosexuality. Lesbianism was seen by many Nazi officials as alien to the nature of the Aryan woman. In some cases, the police arrested lesbians as "asocials" or "prostitutes.:' One woman, Henny Schermann, was arrested in 1940 in Frankfurt and was labeled "licentious Lesbian" on her mug shot; but she was also a "stateless Jew," sufficient cause for deportation. Among the Jewish inmates at Ravensbrück concentration camp selected for extermination, she was gassed in the Bernburg psychiatric hospital, a "euthanasia" killing center in Germany, in 1942. [16]
Think of the little boy who cried wolf. Now on one side of the issue you have individuals saying "Zionism!" at every opportunity, on the other side "Antisemitism!" To assume (and accuse!) that any piece of information you see is biased or incorrect (on either side) will just make it harder for truthful and credible claims to be taken seriously, thus making it harder to maintain neutrality. All I'm saying is, this is an emotionally and politically loaded issue, PLEASE try to maintain a neutral POV. Peter Deer ( talk) 20:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The article appears when i'm logged in, but is only "hi" when not logged in. Please fix. ( Sawyer ( talk) 18:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
I've just been reading through the section on Etymology and use of the term, and was expecting to see some mention of the phrase " Nuclear Holocaust", but it's currently not in there. I think there should be a brief mention of this related term, if only for completeness. Any opinions? -- Hibernian ( talk) 18:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Image:WieselAuschwitzpits.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 03:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Image:Holocaust123.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 22:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't this quote seem to agree that the Roma are characteristically dirty, shabby and bizarre? Is that really something you want to include? - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 16:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
If the holocaust refers to the genocide of peoples by means of concentration camps by the nazis, why do people immediately, and sometimes only think of jewish opression, persecution and excution. Of course it is true that around six million jews were executed during the holocaust, but people seem to forget the other five million innocent people subjected to the concentration camps. Around eleven million homosexuals, blacks, jews, disabled people and others were slaughtered, but yet 'the holocaust' only refers to the jews who died, why is this. Surely when the holocaust and it's dead are commemorated, not only the suffering of the jews and their persecution should be remembered, I am not anti-semitic and this small article is not racially motivated. I just wanted to ask why 5 of the 11 million people that died in the concentration camps were not remembered or even thought of by alot of people on the holocaust's anniversary, and I believe this is a very important issue to be highlighted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarkz ( talk • contribs) 20:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
How about: Central Asia & Eastern Europeans (Hungary/Poland) under Mongols...
Hungarians/Balkans under Turks... First Nations of the Americas under Europeans... Greeks/Armenians/Kurds under Turks... Tibet under China... Cambodians under Khmer Rouge... Rwanda...etc...?
Cross reference to "Genocide"...
Nemo Senki 66.213.22.193 ( talk) 01:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
An article should have both supporting and disagreeing evidence. Even if a vast majority of opinions agreed with one side, some mention should be made to those with differing opinions. There is a significant number of people who believe that the Holocaust never occured, or disagree with the extent with which it occured. The lead does seem to be too much of a one-sided argument to me. Any opinions? Herunar ( talk) 17:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
No not really. We may ask that the mention of fat being the fire source of the cremation of millions be reconsidered though - along with a few other items. The fat cremation "wiki fact" is citable ( www.hdot - Emory U no less, Lipstadt) but doubtful. If the same science was applied to the holocaust as say the tinfoilers or flat earthers the deniers would be overjoyed. Be careful as to who gets the nutty fringe tinfoil label in the end. You get the permits and we'll bring the shovels.
159.105.80.141 (
talk) 19:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Holocaust denial is completely unfounded and is only done by ignorant or evil people. Yes it is OK to use the word evil. My father-in-law had his entire family murdered by the Nazis and was in several of these death camps. It is just crazy to say it did not happen., —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.67.64.10 ( talk) 20:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Holocaust denial is not denial of the fact that it happened, it is logical questioning of the actual numbers of people who died. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Agagaga (
talk •
contribs) 22:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Is there any truth to what the news is reporting, about Matan Vilnai threatening a "bigger shoah" against Hamas? And how are people reacting to that? — Rickyrab | Talk 15:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted in the aftermath that some of the concentration camps were never closed, they simply switched populations, for example those in Poland. [17].-- Stor stark7 Talk 19:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Some effort should be put into getting the Madagascar_Plan in order, it is a very important aspect in the road leading to the Holocaust, by advocating a "minor" slower holocaust far from Europe. It directly influenced the building of the gettos in Eastern Europe for instance. I realize it can be a sensitive topic, as demonstrated [18]. -- Stor stark7 Talk 19:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
All jewish citizen of Bulgaria located on its territory (who were under the administrative jurisdiction of the Bulgarian government) were saved from extermination. There are a good number of historical references available to attach. Why does the article state that the victims in Bulgaria were "notably lower"? There are a good number of books written about that as well as historical publications. Please give the deserved credit to a country whose government and its official church managed to achieve something no other country did. Bulgaria is also in the official list of the countries who saved the Jews during WWII so please correct that and discuss. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.91.45.231 ( talk) 15:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
In section "Poles and Slavs", it is stated that over 1 million Serbs was killed, following some quotation. However, the official scientific data (US and Yugoslav) is quoted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
There was 1 million TOTAL victims in ex-Yugoslavia, which is inhabited mostly by South Slavic nations. Demograpic loss of 1.7 mil. pople means that there would be 1.7 mil. pople more in ex-Yu if there was no war (dead + fall of birth rate due to war) and it is not counted as "war casualties".
A terrible and tragic theme like Holocaust is not a place for propaganda, neither is Wikipedia. It is unacceptable to use an artice like this to spread Serbian nationalist propaganda, which is used as "leverage" for Serbian crimes in Bosnia and Kosovo. Let those guys open up their wiki and write whatever they want there. Wikipedia principles are NPOV and verification, as far as I know - this means scientific data, not some article in nationalistic press.
I appeal to members who watch over Holocaust articles to fix these false data, to maintain dignity of Holocaust victims, and to preserve Holocaust deniers from using examples of such false data to support their outrageous claims of "exaggerated Holocaust numbers"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.252.151.134 ( talk) 10:53, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
EXCUSE ME BUT WHY IS THERE SOMETHING IN THIS ARTICLE ABOUT WHAT HITLER "ALLEGEDLY" SAID TO A JOURNALIST IN 1922?
Because I don't even think that hitler was sure he'd come to power in 1922, he just got out of prison.
The other thing is that the link of the alleged statement is coming from a dubious website that shows the quote and a pic of people hanging with an German , soldier, which is infact not a german uniform at all. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
72.211.128.183 (
talk) 09:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Hi Vsosin, you're making edits that are massively increasing the number of Soviet citizens believed to have died within Nazi concentration camps as part of the Holocaust (as opposed to being part of the war).
Could you please say here of each figure in the article that you are correcting, who your source is, and what that source says exactly? If you could do it one by one, that would be easier for the rest of us to follow. The problem is that you're trying to make significant changes to the figures all at once, and at least one of your sources is a non-specialist website. SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 00:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Good evening SV. I see your point and will include exact frases from the refereces that were includes. It is a very valid point. Let me just get into the libruary after holidays. Regarding, the overall civilian vicitims vs. Holocaust victims - that is not exactly what I am trying to do. Overall Soviet victims are well over 20 millions and of course do not fall under camp victims. The question of the Slavic victims of very political here in the USA. However, if you look into Nazi plans, you would see that Slavic people shared the same feature of racial inferiority as jewish in the Nazi eyes. 2/3 of their entire population should had been eradicated, so land could be repopulated by Germans. Please see [Racial policy of Nazi Germany]. The vital difference with jewish people was only that Soviet people could leave even their village; their were slaves in their own coutry (the had "propiska" - attachement to the place), designated for slauter by the goverment. Please let me grab the original so we could verify the exact wording and I even could scan and email to you part if you would wish. We should find a common groud. VS —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsosin ( talk • contribs) 01:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
This article only cover the Jewish and European version of Holocaust, but this event effected the whole world and world politics, so i request to add the opinions of other nations about this incident. like denial of Holocaust and creation of Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Farazilu ( talk • contribs) 03:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
there is no dachau disco on Emule...wei is it sow? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.245.50.140 ( talk) 01:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Whilst I certainly disagree with Faraz's view on this, would it hurt to have a short paragraph explaining that certain minorities still dispute the existence of the holocaust, although they are generally agreed to be plain wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.16.7.100 ( talk) 02:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure the views you describe are of bunch of folks not too well educated or people who want to believe in that. It is hard to imagine such ignorance in Europe and especially in Poland.-- Jacurek ( talk) 05:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that the articles of which the section on Jehovah's Witnesses is a summary disagree with this article about the number of victims: the full articles base themselves on a JW reference instead. Thus I included that opinion - on which probably such opinions as of a " Holocaust Resource Center" is based to that of the secondary source. I was just going to look at a discussion about the reason of the discrepancy betwen the conflicting Wikipedia articles when Crum375 reverted with teh claim that the other one is "scolarly" and presumably more reliable. However, he/she did not correct the other artices on which that section supposedly is based, nor did he/she motivate why only the one opinion should be considered to be more reliable or authorative. At the minumum this article should be consistent with the ones that give more details. Please clarify, thanks!
Note: it may be better to not just include but specify the conflict of opinions, as this discrepancy between the opinion of the group of victims and those who write about them is quite interesting and notable. Harald88 ( talk) 21:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Book: ed. M. Berenbaum, "A Mosaic of Victims. Non-Jews murdered by Nazis." - the book as you may call it of the most recognized in the area. Page 117: "All this, however, would remain an idle dream unless a planned policy of colonization and depopulation are carried out. Yes, a depolulation policy..." Page 118: "Germans were true to their policies. They depopulated the Ukraine though mass execution, deportations and famine. Page 140: " the scale of German extermination of the population of Soviet Republics:
Ukraine 4.0 million Belorussia 2.5 million Russian Federation 1.7 millions
And finally page 147 last paragraph: "it was not part of German Army tradition to kill defenseless prisoners of war by thousands ... The popular explanation is that the entire Wehrmacht had adopted the Nazi concept that all Soviet citizent are subhumans and that German soldiers acted accordignly. "
Please correct me if I am wrong: - Slaves (sovient) were mass killed for racial reasons. - Slaves were scheduled for complete anihilation (plan Leberbaum). They just couldn't plan right away as easy to kill 150 millions as 15 millinons (they planned in case of Jewish people). It just would unfeasable to do at once. - Slaves were killned in concentration camps (even Ukrainina presiden's father), forces labor camps, starved to death, burned alive in large numbers, shot, sterilized. - Total number of Slavic Holocaust (W. Churchill) 19.7 - 23.9 millions !!!!!!!!
Please let me know your opinion. my email if you need: vkilchyk@yahoo.ca VS
Thank you very much for yor useful comments on the Slavic death toll in the Holocaust Article. The small things that I wanted to clear a bit are the following: in my last comment I pointed out not the fuct of millions of Slavs killed in the concerations camps but rather that death of 4.5 - 8 millions of Slavs was racially motivated (both in the concentration camps, labor camps, their mass murders etc). All the references cited so far agreed on that. So if this fall under the definition of genocide/Holocaust this people should be included as a common group (just like jewish people not by their country of residence). I am not enforcing to the words killed in camps or Soviet people. I think Slavic victims would more correct. Now, the difference between the Jewish and Slavic people, as I see, is that the first froup was planned 2/3 killed and the rest eslaved (not just enslaved ! and most of the references along with a number of people killed stands for that), while the second group was supposed was to be completely eliminated. If you agree on that should we also say Slavic Holocaust and iclude this people in the artilce as a group ? Thank you, VSosin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsosin ( talk • contribs) 02:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
In the holocaust the nazi soldiers would also shave the jews heads and use the hair to stuff the mattress they slept on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.51.77.191 ( talk) 13:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Hello, I am new to this and not sure whether this belongs here or not but, I think that the number 11 million should be put first, then have it divided up into 6 million jews, 1 million gypsies etc. I had no idea there were like, 5 million non jewish victims and reading the opening paragraph I wouldnt have been educated at all. Sorry, I dont want to be offensive or nothing, just yeah, wondering if someone can update it maybe. 58.107.180.155 ( talk) 11:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure about most of what your talking about but... thanks! I only said 1 million gypsies as an example, im not sure how many were killed so sorry if i offended or anything. 58.107.180.155 ( talk) 10:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
I have read the De Zayas's book. The Wehrmacht War Crimes Bureau, 1939-1945, issued reports that detailed Allied war crimes. Joseph Goebbels used The Wehrmacht Bureau on War Crimes as a source to churn out atrocity propaganda. The recent post is blatant neo-Nazi propaganda.-- Woogie10w ( talk) 14:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Although many institutions and people were involved in identifying and the deportation of Jews, there is evidence that only a select few knew that the Jews were to be systematically exterminated. The Jews themselves, German citizens and citizens of occupied countries, German Police and even the notorious Gestapo were not aware of the fact that the Jews were rounded up to be murdered. [1] The situation has sometimes been compared with that of the 1941 systematic evacuation of the Japanese-American population to special internment camps. No American at the time expected their Japanese American neighbours were going to be gassed. Similarly, many Europeans thought the Jews were being sent to labour camps or even to a newly created Jewish state in the East and had few reasons to think otherwise. In Der SS-Staat, Professor Eugon Kogon, a former concentration-camp inmate, argues there was a succesful effort to keep knowledge of the Holocaust very limited. Though Wehrmacht soldiers sometimes witnessed the killings of Jews by SS-Einsatzgruppen, amidst total war there would have been no reason to think these were part of an official policy of exterminating Jews. [2]There is evidence only special SS and other personnel directly involved in the killings knew of the systematical nature and magnitude thereof and were effectively sworn to secrecy. During the Nuremberg Trials it appeared than even persons in senior government positions had no knowledge of what was going on, like the acquitted Nazi press secretary Hans Fritzsche. Another example is the testimony at Nuremberg by SS Judge Georg Konrad Morgen. Morgen had received reports on killings of Jews by the security police of Lublin and sought to persecute Lublin commander Christian Wirth, unaware that the killings were ordered from the very top of government. [3]
(unindent) I don't see de Zayas' lack of credentials as "Holocaust historian" to be a detriment to our using his research. I object to Slim Virgin's deletions. Binksternet ( talk) 00:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
I undid the edit by Crum375, who stated: "per talk, it seems the only person who has actually read the book disagrees". However I am not quoting from the "The Wehrmacht Bureau on War Crimes" book, but from a 17 page article in The Historical Journal. In the article De Zayas uses his knowledge he gained from the research for his book, and summarizes what he thinks are the main points in the book. Because it is an article in a scientific magazine it should be sufficient to quote from the article, and not necessarily from the book. And there was a consensus that the new part would be included, just one person that did not recall what he read in the book. I hope the section won't be removed again or it'll become an edit-war. Wiki1609 ( talk) 12:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
De Zayas is a highly controversial author who takes reports from Nazi Germany at face value and doesn't review them critically. Also he is politically involved with some organisations in Germany such as BdV. His work as his been accused as focusing solely on German fate, sometimes close to revisionism, more can be read on discussion page in the article about him. Mind that the main article has been edited by some group of editors changing nicknames, with accusations issued that this might be the person himself. Altogether this is a highly controversial and certainly not mainstream author, with strong political views.-- Molobo ( talk) 16:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
http://www.tomhull.com/ocston/books/judt-postwar.php In November 1946, 37 per cent of Germans questioned in a survey of the American zone took the view that 'the extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was necessary for the security of Germans'.
So there is no question that support for such actions existed in significant numbers even after the war. -- Molobo ( talk) 17:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
This is just a point of clarification, but by Jews, does the article mean people who practiced Judiasm, or the nazi definition used by Eichmann that only required your grandmother to have practiced judiasm?( Lucas(CA) ( talk) 02:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC))
Why there is too much "favoritism" towards the jews and why it is "THE" holocaust, whilst there were many other genocides on different people around that time and even different nations almost half the world away. Also, why is the history of the Armenian massacre and the killing of the Russian Communists ignored even though it was happening at the same time =/?
So the next time someone uses the term "the holocaust" clarify their statement by saying, "Which holocaust? The armenian massacre, the Russian Communist slaughter, the Cambodian Massacre, the Darfur Conflict, Nazi Facist Slaughterers, or just our human instinct of killing people for the sake of superiority, dictatorship, or just plain war; of which has been going on since the beginning of human tribal wars."
I'm not a neo-nazi I'm just saying that this article doesn't sound neutral to me. I do not care about the history of the naming but the article sounds to favored to the Nazi German era.
-- µWiki Talk / Contributions (YouWiki) 23:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
I am not pro-nazi but there has been some skeptism about the holocaust. Many question its truthfully and say that it never did happen and it is made for sympathy and to hide the truth. There is definitely bias in the citing of the event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.1.70 ( talk) 13:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Going back to the original question, it's reasonable to call this The Holocaust because the term Holocaust was coined for it. Before that, mass killings were called something else (massacre for example). Holocaust was used specifically to describe this set of killings. After that people used the term to refer to other killings (e.g. the Armenian Holocaust) as a comparison. But this is unquestionably the original. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 15:25, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I think another point to make: strictly by numbers (est. 17 to 26 million), the Nazi's killed a tremendous amount of people from a wide margin of races, religions, and people that just didn't fit their profile. Also, you can say "Armenian Holocaust" because it was the Armenians being targeted. But you can't say the Nazi Holocaust because it wasn't the Nazis being targeted, certainly! You can say the Jewish Holocaust, but then you get into complications of 'which one?', not to mention you would then marginalize all of the other ethnic, religious, gender, disabled, and national groups that were targets. I think THE is generally acceptable for this reason. I think the very reason you are arguing that 'THE Holocaust' seems to favor Jews is the very reason it should stand: it was not only Jews. littleone ( talk) 22:51, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Just reading through the article, there are several bits that are worded in a Jewish POV perspective. Obviously it's a difficult issue to approach because it was such a horrible event, but I think it would be nice to have a bit of a clean up. For examle:
"The strong Jewish sense of family solidarity meant that this was not an option for most Jews, who preferred to die together rather than be separated."
- there's little sentences like these that are unreferenced and more rhetoric than useful fact (I think every culture in the world has a strong sense of family solidarity) that give a more subjective perspective of the horror etc., which I'm not sure fits in with wikipedia (not contending whether it's true, but it would be more appropriate in say, a subjective / first person narrative of events). Anyway, I'm not experienced with wikipedia and don't want to be accused of vandalism, so I'll just leave the suggestion here? ( 144.32.155.5 ( talk) 00:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC))
Entry: HOLOCAUST Sub-chapter: Escapes, publication of news of the death camps (April–June 1944) Under the photograph: Rudolf Vrba]] (right) escaped from Auschwitz on April 7, 1944, bringing the first credible news to the world of the mass murder that was taking place here.
My comment: the first credible news were delivered to the world by Poles:
Witold Pilecki [he became the only known person to volunteer to be imprisoned at Auschwitz concentration camp. While there, he organized the resistance movement in the camp, and as early as 1940, informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz atrocities. He escaped in 1943 and took part in the Warsaw Uprising (August–October 1944). Pilecki was executed in 1948 by the communists. (etc., see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilecki)];
Jan Karski [In 1942 and 1943 Karski reported to the Polish government in exile and the Western Allies on the situation in Poland, especially the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto and the extermination camps. (etc., see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Karski)];
and also by Jan Nowak-Jezioranski [He also served as an envoy between the commanders of the Home Army and the Polish Government in Exile and other allied governments. During his first trips to Sweden and Great Britain he informed the Western governments of the fate of Poland under German and Soviet occupation. He was also the first to report of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. During one of such missions, in July of 1944, he returned to Warsaw only a few days before the Warsaw Uprising broke out. (etc., see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Nowak-Jeziora%C5%84ski)]; —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.180.16.18 ( talk) 17:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Proposed changed to include a notion about ethnically motivated Slavic deaths.
It is a largely ignored fact in the US that Nazi Germany had also a special racial policies towards Slavic people. The Slavs were called subhuman. Moreover, Nazi planned depopulation of the Slavic territories with Germans Lebensraum . M. Berenbaum, "A Mosaic of Victims. Non-Jews murdered by Nazis." Page 117 Nazi speech :
"...... All this, however, would remain an idle dream unless a planned policy of colonization and depopulation are carried out. Yes, a depopulation policy..."
Page 118:
"Germans were true to their policies. They depopulated the Ukraine though mass execution, deportations and famine.
Page 140:
" the scale of German extermination of the population of Soviet Republics: Ukraine 4.0 million Belorussia 2.5 million Russian Federation 1.7 millions"
Most of Soviet (again predominantly Slavic) millitary were not taken prisoners (killed instead) or put in the sepate from other POW's camps were there were killed throuh malnutrition and hard labor or put in the gas chambers. - the result of racil policy:
Page 147, last paragraph:
"... it was not part of German Army tradition to kill defenseless prisoners of war by thousands ... The popular explanation is that the entire Wehrmacht had adopted the Nazi concept that all Soviet citizen are subhumans and that German soldiers acted accordingly"
The plan included reduction of USSR population alone from over 70 millions to 30 millions
[Alexander Dallin, German Rule in Occupied Russia, 1941-1945: A Study in Occupation Policies (New York: Macmillan, 1957) esp. p 278]
So while it wasn't the "final solution", but the fact is that the plan of depopulation of Eastern Eurpe was documented and widely publicised. Most of the holocaust historian acknowledge the fact the large numbers of victims among the Slavic were the results of "special" racial policies.
(From earlier talk, from M. Barenbaum's book:)
"The Columbia Guide to the Holocaust mentions that Bohdan Wytwycky estimates 4.5 million Soviet civilian deaths that were racially motivated."
(Racially means as Slavs not as Jewish. Some authors use Soviet civilians instead of collective word Slavic as such term was not used in the USSR towards its population that was predominantly Slavic.)
Therefore, I suggest the following changes : -At the beginning of the article to change the phrase about the combined death toll to say that the number of victims is over 11 millions.
-To add in the section on Slavic death toll the info on the Nazi policy toward Slavs with references to their plan Lebensraum (wiki article) and books I used before. The reference (Table) should say that some authors suggest that a large part of the civilian and military death toll (4.5 - 8 millions) was planned and racially motivated extermination of the Slavic people.
VSosin
I believe that, aside from gay men, there were also instances of women being murdered as lesbians, classified by the Nazis as "anti-socials." I remember seeing something about it specifically at Dachau. Zhankfor
The vast majority of homosexual victims were males; lesbians were not subjected to systematic persecution. While lesbian bars were closed, few women are believed to have been arrested. Paragraph 175 did not mention female homosexuality. Lesbianism was seen by many Nazi officials as alien to the nature of the Aryan woman. In some cases, the police arrested lesbians as "asocials" or "prostitutes.:' One woman, Henny Schermann, was arrested in 1940 in Frankfurt and was labeled "licentious Lesbian" on her mug shot; but she was also a "stateless Jew," sufficient cause for deportation. Among the Jewish inmates at Ravensbrück concentration camp selected for extermination, she was gassed in the Bernburg psychiatric hospital, a "euthanasia" killing center in Germany, in 1942. [16]
Think of the little boy who cried wolf. Now on one side of the issue you have individuals saying "Zionism!" at every opportunity, on the other side "Antisemitism!" To assume (and accuse!) that any piece of information you see is biased or incorrect (on either side) will just make it harder for truthful and credible claims to be taken seriously, thus making it harder to maintain neutrality. All I'm saying is, this is an emotionally and politically loaded issue, PLEASE try to maintain a neutral POV. Peter Deer ( talk) 20:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
The article appears when i'm logged in, but is only "hi" when not logged in. Please fix. ( Sawyer ( talk) 18:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC))
I've just been reading through the section on Etymology and use of the term, and was expecting to see some mention of the phrase " Nuclear Holocaust", but it's currently not in there. I think there should be a brief mention of this related term, if only for completeness. Any opinions? -- Hibernian ( talk) 18:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Image:WieselAuschwitzpits.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
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BetacommandBot ( talk) 03:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Image:Holocaust123.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot ( talk) 22:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but doesn't this quote seem to agree that the Roma are characteristically dirty, shabby and bizarre? Is that really something you want to include? - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 16:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
If the holocaust refers to the genocide of peoples by means of concentration camps by the nazis, why do people immediately, and sometimes only think of jewish opression, persecution and excution. Of course it is true that around six million jews were executed during the holocaust, but people seem to forget the other five million innocent people subjected to the concentration camps. Around eleven million homosexuals, blacks, jews, disabled people and others were slaughtered, but yet 'the holocaust' only refers to the jews who died, why is this. Surely when the holocaust and it's dead are commemorated, not only the suffering of the jews and their persecution should be remembered, I am not anti-semitic and this small article is not racially motivated. I just wanted to ask why 5 of the 11 million people that died in the concentration camps were not remembered or even thought of by alot of people on the holocaust's anniversary, and I believe this is a very important issue to be highlighted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarkz ( talk • contribs) 20:38, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
How about: Central Asia & Eastern Europeans (Hungary/Poland) under Mongols...
Hungarians/Balkans under Turks... First Nations of the Americas under Europeans... Greeks/Armenians/Kurds under Turks... Tibet under China... Cambodians under Khmer Rouge... Rwanda...etc...?
Cross reference to "Genocide"...
Nemo Senki 66.213.22.193 ( talk) 01:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
An article should have both supporting and disagreeing evidence. Even if a vast majority of opinions agreed with one side, some mention should be made to those with differing opinions. There is a significant number of people who believe that the Holocaust never occured, or disagree with the extent with which it occured. The lead does seem to be too much of a one-sided argument to me. Any opinions? Herunar ( talk) 17:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
No not really. We may ask that the mention of fat being the fire source of the cremation of millions be reconsidered though - along with a few other items. The fat cremation "wiki fact" is citable ( www.hdot - Emory U no less, Lipstadt) but doubtful. If the same science was applied to the holocaust as say the tinfoilers or flat earthers the deniers would be overjoyed. Be careful as to who gets the nutty fringe tinfoil label in the end. You get the permits and we'll bring the shovels.
159.105.80.141 (
talk) 19:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Holocaust denial is completely unfounded and is only done by ignorant or evil people. Yes it is OK to use the word evil. My father-in-law had his entire family murdered by the Nazis and was in several of these death camps. It is just crazy to say it did not happen., —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.67.64.10 ( talk) 20:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Holocaust denial is not denial of the fact that it happened, it is logical questioning of the actual numbers of people who died. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Agagaga (
talk •
contribs) 22:14, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Is there any truth to what the news is reporting, about Matan Vilnai threatening a "bigger shoah" against Hamas? And how are people reacting to that? — Rickyrab | Talk 15:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
It should be noted in the aftermath that some of the concentration camps were never closed, they simply switched populations, for example those in Poland. [17].-- Stor stark7 Talk 19:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Some effort should be put into getting the Madagascar_Plan in order, it is a very important aspect in the road leading to the Holocaust, by advocating a "minor" slower holocaust far from Europe. It directly influenced the building of the gettos in Eastern Europe for instance. I realize it can be a sensitive topic, as demonstrated [18]. -- Stor stark7 Talk 19:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)