There was no movie released in 1980 titled "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." Lucasfilm might have later renamed the movie, and its own promotional materials treat the name change as retroactive to the initial release. However, this is an encyclopedia recounting events of historical fact, not retconning by Lucasfilm. For encyclopedic purposes, the article should identify the fact that the movie was released as "The Empire Strikes Back" and marketed under that title for about fifteen years. It should then indicate that Lucasfilm "retitled" it and now markets it under the name "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back."
This is a recurring problem in Star Wars-related articles. They lack an "out-of-universe" perspective, and repeat Lucasfilm's official revisionism as though it actually did change events of historical fact. Anyone interested in Lucasfilm's current recounting of the Star Wars universe can visit its web site. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. 12.4.231.134 17:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Look at the official movie poster from 1980 in the article. It doesn't have the words "Episode V," and it has the words "Star Wars" only appear in the tag line "The Star Wars Saga Continues." Look at any review from 1980. No reviewer in 1980 was aware that the title of this movie was "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." The Time article you refer to only underscores this. It says that "Empire Strikes Back" is identified as Episode V in the series, but this is a far cry from saying that the movie's title is "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." To the contrary, the Time article identifies the movie's title as "The Empire Strikes Back." 12.4.231.134 18:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"Identified" and "titled" are very different things. Obviously, the opening sequence indicated that "The Empire Strikes Back" was the fifth episode in the series. But that is not the same as saying that its full official name was, in 1980, "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." It simply wasn't. The fact that the title has changed over time is an important point to discuss in the article. The article shouldn't falsely suggest that the film has always been known and identified as "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." In any event, consider the compromise changes I made. 12.4.231.134 18:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Why such a long name? What is wrong with The Empire Strikes Back? -- mav 11:42, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
It was called "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back" since it was released in 1980. See the IMDb profile. Osaboramirez 07:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The novellization of the book came out before this movie. -- 172.194.68.52 16:30, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From the article:
Surely James Earl Jones knew as well, seeing how he spoke the "I am your father" line. Right? -- TomPreuss 22:13, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I saw the credit for Yoda in the movie, and it says "Frank Oz Performing Yoda", so I will correct it, but leaving the link for "Yoda".
Also, I noticed that James Earl Jones is not credited, so I will remove that information.
In the 2000 VHS version of the Special Edition of "The Empires Strikes Back", James Earl Jones IS credited as "Voice of Darth Vader".
When you wackos have stopped your war and unprotected the page, correct a typo "When the Star Destroyer preforms its regular release of waste," -- should be "performs".
There doesn't seem to be any disputes here that I can see. Just wondering, what is it exactly that causes the page to be protected?
Ian McDiarmid only appears as The Emperor in the DVD version. Copperchair 05:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Adam, don't tell me I have no write to fix this article. I have MORE right, because my edits delete bad content. On what grounds do you argue that I don't have the right to edit this article? - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:38, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
From what I looked, all of the Star Wars movies have the opening crawl. While I am not sure if this is a clear copyright violation, we could put the opening crawls into one article, if yall so desire. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:22, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of trying to condense the summary here. I would appreciate if everyone read it and edited in order to improve it as necessary before we post it here. KramarDanIkabu 02:47, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
By the way, the link for copyright information is [1] TheAlternateReality 01:21, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
A Link to the Past: if you keep vandalizing this page, your conduct will be reported to the administrators. Copperchair 03:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Let me point out that there are more people that would side with me on this. If you want me to, I can get those people, including many admins. Do you want to do this quietly? - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:17, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
Is some sort of consensus going to be estableshed regarding who is going to be credited in the cast section, and how? I'm looking at a months worth of back-and-forth edits over this or that actor getting or not getting mention, and it's getting pretty silly. Please stop reverting and discuss it somewhere. I suggest here. - A Man In Black ( Talk | Contribs) 06:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Man in Black: It was discussed and there is a consensus, Copperchair just ignores it. — Phil Welch 07:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
It is important that we leave the "(as Dennis Lawson)" in there. Why? Dennis spells his name with one "n", but Lucas, for whatever reason, credited him as two-N Dennis. A search on IMDb for "Dennis Lawson" immediately redirects to "Denis Lawson" and shows his roles in Ep IV and V as being "(as Dennis Lawson)" just as we have here. The whole point is to indicate the discrepancy between what the actor's name is and what the credits say it is. (This is probably more important in situations where the actor was credited under a pseudonym, like Mike Judge in Office Space, rather than a simple spelling error.)-- chris. lawson 13:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I've protected this page for the time being, and directed everyone involved here. Once consensus is established how to credit Denis Lawson (or people have cooled off), I'll unprotect it. - A Man In Black ( Talk | Contribs) 07:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
The guy deleted my comment to him on his talk page about his reverts as seen here. The Wookieepedian 07:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
OK, as someone who got into this whole mess doing RC patrol and who doesn't much give a crap one way or another about Star Wars (I like the movies, but as Johnny Cash up there said, this has got to be one of the lamest edit wars ever), here's my comment:
We should list Wedge. Why? Because he's major enough to be mentioned in the plot summary. If a character is important enough to be mentioned in the plot summary, the character is important enough for us to list in the credits. If the character isn't important enough for us to list in the credits, we shouldn't be talking about that character's exploits in the plot summary.
Since Wedge figures prominently in the movie, he gets a plot summary listing, and therefore a cast listing. Sounds reasonable, and there's ample consensus for this. Good.
OK, so how do we list him? Well, the way IMDb does it is the way it's listed in the section header here. In my fairly neutral opinion, that's how we should do it. IMDb is pretty much the industry standard, as far as I can tell, for how folks in the know list movie casts. I don't see any particularly compelling reason not to follow IMDb in this case.
Back to how we choose who gets listed. I wouldn't object to simply taking the cast as listed on the front page of IMDb. In other words, "Cast overview, first billed only." That might be a more objective means than the above suggestion, and like I said, I don't think we're going to exactly go wrong by following IMDb here.-- chris. lawson 21:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Again, care to cite an example of Wikipedia doing that? I'm not understanding your point here. Is there something specifically wrong with using IMDb's cast listings as a guideline?-- chris. lawson 03:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Again, more importantly, do you have a better suggestion? Obviously, our current criteria aren't working. We need something objective that folks like Copperchair can't argue with. Remember, I'm mostly on your "side" here. :)-- chris. lawson 00:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I think this discussion in basic premise alone constitutes "feeding the troll". An editor who refuses to contribute in good faith ought to have his opinions discounted. — Phil Welch 01:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I ask you, in all honesty, what's wrong with Coffee's suggestion? That way the list remains short, but it also follows something objctive, not to mention its order. Copperchair 02:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
OK, holy fucking crap, people.
This isn't a goddamn federal case.
Surely we can come to some sort of agreement.
Adam, where's this Wikifilms project? I'm heading over there. The folks here obviously don't give a crap about making any useful suggestions. Phil, Adam, you guys with me?-- chris. lawson 04:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I think ALttP has provided a better suggestion, namely, maintaining the status quo. We don't need a new guideline here, m:Avoid instruction creep. — Phil Welch 05:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Coming up with guidelines and policies in order to placate trolls like Copperchair isn't a good idea. — Phil Welch 05:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, looks like just about everybody is in agreement on this. Let's try editing again. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Page is reprotected due to edit war over navbox templates. Discussion is ongoing at Talk:Star Wars#The debate over the correct templates. - A Man In Black ( conspire | past ops) 05:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
All 6 Star Wars film are protected from editing. This bickering is pointless. I find your lack of good faith disturbing. For the sake of unifying discussion, please try to settle the dispute at Talk:Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope. Coffee 06:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I have reordered the opening paragraphs a bit (not claiming perfection, though). Especially the first sentence with the two parantheses felt too convoluted to me. The only info I removed was that fans call the movie ESB or TESB. I don't think this information is so important that it needs to be in the first few words of this article -- fans know that anyway, and do non-fans really need this info? It seems the abbreviation isn't even used on the page. I think it can be dropped or put into "Trivia", but somebody who feels it is important should please find a better place to put it than the very first sentence. -- Kusma 06:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I contributed some things on this movie page. I did:
I added these things to make the Wikipedia entry more complete and informative. I hope my contributions helped. :) -- Dancerlbw 12:12, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
What is this about 3-D version of the movie? Source, please.-- FDIS
What do you think? E Pluribus Anthony 19:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
The "Budget/Box Office" section says "The estimated budget was $18,000,000." The trivia section says "However, certain production problems (especially while filming the Hoth scenes in snow-stricken Norway) caused the budget to rise to $33 million, making it one of the most expensive movies of its day." The latter attributes the documentary Empire of Dreams.
That's a pretty wide discrepancy there. Both iMDB and BoxOfficeMojo cite the budget as $18M. Without further data to substantiate the $33M claim, should it be left in? BinaryTed 16:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Please argue here about whether to mention the EU origin of the Dark Side cave on Dagobah in this article here instead of revert warring. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 00:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't planning to make this a vote, because voting is evil. I just wanted to get the edit warriors talking, and some new voices involved. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added some wording specifically disclaiming the Bpfassi bit as a retcon from a later novel. If someone could mention which novel it is mentioned in, we can probably put this to rest. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 21:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd put the ref in myself but I'd rather not edit this article for a while. Kafziel 21:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
While we're talking about this, I'm going to try and rewrite the plot summary, to get it down from its terribly bloated 16 paragraphs. I make no promises about keeping every single plot point or bit of trivia that has been crammed in; while I realize ESB is a plot-dense movie, I'd rather the plot summary read like the ones in Blade Runner and Sunset Blvd. (1950 film), both FAs. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 08:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone want to get this to featured article status? .... 01:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I noticed a mistake in the 'errors' section. Where it says, "In the second paragraph of the title crawl, the subject and verb don't agree. The subject ("Freedom fighters") is plural, while the verb ("has established") is singular."
This is incorrect. The subject of that sentence is not "Freedom fighters", it's "A band of freedom fighters", so the subject is "Band", so the singular tense still agrees. Can someone fix or delete? Thanks
I've been contributing most of the revisions for the Empire page in the last several days. Empire is one of my favorite films and this has been a labor of love. For those who caught and corrected my little errors of syntax, redundancy, and spelling — thank you!
My initial goal was to clarify the plot summary because I encountered a few problems. The first problem was something you may have noticed before: a fan-centric overemphasis on Star Wars gadgets, military hardware, and proper names from the Expanded Universe that are neither noteworthy by Wiki standards nor helpful for someone who came into this article "blind," i.e., not knowing much about Star Wars. I hope I don't offend any well-intentioned Wiki contributors, but some of the fanboy excesses were hilariously inappropriate. My favorite was a reference to Darth Vader doing a "Force Choke" on Admiral Ozzel, something explicitly described in the Star Wars: Battleground II video game but never referred to in the movies themselves.
I think that we as Wiki contributors — and, especially, as Star Wars fans — run the risk of forgetting that the vast majority of the Wiki readership doesn't give a doody about Star Wars. We need to constantly ask ourselves, "What would someone who knows nothing about this need to know?" and "What is NOTABLE by Wikipedia standards?" It's not our job to create a Star Wars Wiki entry exclusively for fanboys, (that's what the wonderful Wookiepedia is for!); we need to come into it dispassionately and be governed by what is explicitly revealed in the movie itself.
I edited out proper names like "Wampa", "AT-AT," and "Boba Fett" for that reason. They are never named in the film and their presence in the plot summary just confuses things for a reader. I consulted the film a few times, noticing for example that "X-wing" is named aloud (by one of the pilots escorting the Rebel transports out of the Hoth system), but "TIE fighter" is not. This is not to completely ignore a term like "TIE Fighter" You will find that descriptors are linked to other Wiki entries: e.g, "Imperial Walkers" is linked to the AT-AT entry, "The bounty hunter" is linked to the Boba Fett entry, "Imperial pursuit craft" is liked to the TIE Fighter entry, and so on.
My second goal was to make the whole thing a pleasure to read. I was especially aware of this near the climax. From Luke's duel with Vader to the end of the film, I wanted to communicate a sense of the significance of these events — Luke's sense of failure and despair, Leia's mysterious connection with Luke, Leia's feelings for the missing Han, Vader's contemplative pose, and the heroes' relief and sense of purpose in the final scene as they anticipate rescuing Han.
My third goal was to clarify and streamline the other prose sections. These were largely left unedited — previous Wiki contributors had compiled a fantastic wealth of data, especially about the filmmakers' style and technique. I mostly removed redundancies and gave the sections a nice scrub of logic, making sure cause-and-effect relationships between facts made sense.
My overall goal has been to simply make sure the whole thing flows. This meant grouping most of the prose sections together and relegating the tables, charts, and lists to the end.
I have not removed any factual contributions, though I wish the contributors would have cited their sources, especially about the production of Empire. I sincerely doubt Wikipedia would make Empire a Featured Article if it doesn't have citations.
I personally don't care for the excessive listing and table-ing of elements like, for example, a thumbnail of Mark Hamill. First of all, it's redundant, because we know what he looks like in the frame-grabs above. But more importantly, it defeats the purpose of Wikipedia: that LINKS knit the whole thing together and if you want to see what Mark Hamill looks like, you click his name. It's that simple. Excessive table-ing and charting dishonors the Wiki contributors who wrote the "Mark Hamill" entry.
I would ask what this Talk group thinks about the notion of going through the Star Wars film entries — just the movies themselves, not the Expanded Universe stuff — with a big red pen, metaphorically speaking, and editing out the fan-centric stuff. I do intend to tackle the A New Hope and Return of the Jedi plot summaries next.
Matt Genné 15:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Reasons for failing -
Please see WP:CITE and WP:FAIR. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 10:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Could/should the soundtrack section be expanded? The section as it exists seems to only mention the 1997 Special Edition double CD release (originally by RCA and later re-released by Sony). The first release was a double LP (the second and final such release for the Star Wars series; RotJ only got a single LP/cassette release). Then there was the 1993 Star Wars Trilogy soundtrack box set, released by 20th Century Fox Film Scores - each movie in the trilogy got one disc each, with bonus material from all three on disc four. -- JohnDBuell 03:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The second point of trivia says "This is the only one of the six Star Wars films in which no major character dies." Which major character dies in Ep II? I know the question isn't directly related to Ep V but it's on this page, so I'll ask here. -- Tim ( talk), ( contribs) 23:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Um, Jango Fett? -- Dunhamrc 14:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
In the filmography section of his article, Empire Strikes Back is listed among the films Treat Williams has been in. He is also in [Category:Star Wars actors]. Was Williams actually in the movie? I don't seem to remember. Do any of you know what character he played? Serpent-A 06:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Lots of changes to the article lately, I know. One of the big ones was the elimination of many fair use images, but if you take a look at any of the prequel Star Wars movie articles, you see a great deal of restraint about which ones they use, since only a few are allowed for FA. I hope to soon submit this for GA status, and help do the groundwork for FA status. Judgesurreal777 04:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
We need a plot picture of Yoda, and the iconic moment from this film is Vader beckoning Luke to the dark side. I vote we go back to the two other plot pictures. Judgesurreal777 13:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I really want this article to become a GA, but unfortunately I have noticed several glaring problems.
Good Article in the making here, but I think it needs to receive a thorough copyedit before it moves on.- Dark Kubrick 00:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's in the ESB Special Edition VHS that people from ILM talk about these mattes and they were not mistakes; they decided to not print the optical elements of the cockpits at full opacity so that the black lines that traditionally plagued optical mattes (especially when compositing elements into snowy scenes) would be minimized. When they released the SE back in '97 they re-composited the elements digitally, which allowed them to make the cockpits fully opaque and not show the outside landscape, while not showing any matte lines either. On another note, I saw the note on Treat Williams being one of the Rebel Officers in Hoth, and I saw no mention of John Ratzenberger's small appearance as a Rebel Officer, which is mentioned in his article; there are two stubs about his character, Major Bren Derlin in the List of minor Star Wars Rebel characters or Commander Derlin; apparently they're the same character but I believe that the lines given for his character in the Commander Derlin stub were spoken by another actor... Daniel Villalobos 23:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The 'spoilers end here' tag is missing. It starts at the beginning of the spoilers, but there's nothing at the end of the spoilers.
The "Production" section is an interesting and informative read—right up to the point when you start reading the last, big paragraph. It is simply a long list of trivia, seperatied by periods with no apparent connection. I suggest that it either be turned into a list and moved further down into a new "Trivia" section, or it be reworded into a more coherent text. As it is, it just doesn't fit there and reads terrible. Opinions? — Mütze 14:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Just a question - why is this in here? It's not a "fact" more of an opinion, at least there should be supporting idea's to this (such as why is it considered the darkest? In ANH for example Ben, Owen, Beru, the Jawa's, etc. etc. die while in this one only something bad happens to Han really).
Is not the Galaxy at the end the Milky Way? It seems like it, though I could be wrong. NapoleonAlanparte 11:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I'm sorry to have failed this article's GA nomination, perhaps with some more time this article will reach that status. Some points I noticed...
Overall I enjoyed reading this article and feel that it doesn't have far to go for GA status, provided that it receives a good copyedit and my suggestions are acted upon. Cheers for such a great attempt. Deyyaz [ Talk | Contribs ] 01:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting the paragraph on Alan Dean Foster's novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye being a possible low-budget sequel, although I believe it to be true, I can't find any suitable sources. If anyone is able to find one, please post it here and I will re-add it into the article. Thanks. :) The Filmaker 03:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The idea of having Vader as Luke's father mimics Darkseid and Orion.
Also, if Luke had though it through, he could have done more by accepting Vader's offer to join the Emperor insincerely, acting as a spy within the Emperor's inner circle for the Rebels.
15:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Enda80
I've decided to rewrite the article to state that the film received favorable reviews as opposed to mixed reviews. So far I have been unable to locate any notable critic other than Vincent Canby that wrote a negative review about the film. Rotten Tomatoes features only one bad review out of 51 (Canby's), and the Empire of Dreams film states that the film was received well. The only other source of this supposed outlook is Ben Burtt on the audio commentary. He will be mentioned but I don't think the "mixed" evidence outweighs the "favorable" evidence. I'll begin writing the article soon. If anyone has a valid objection, please feel free bring up here. :) The Filmaker 23:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
There was no movie released in 1980 titled "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." Lucasfilm might have later renamed the movie, and its own promotional materials treat the name change as retroactive to the initial release. However, this is an encyclopedia recounting events of historical fact, not retconning by Lucasfilm. For encyclopedic purposes, the article should identify the fact that the movie was released as "The Empire Strikes Back" and marketed under that title for about fifteen years. It should then indicate that Lucasfilm "retitled" it and now markets it under the name "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back."
This is a recurring problem in Star Wars-related articles. They lack an "out-of-universe" perspective, and repeat Lucasfilm's official revisionism as though it actually did change events of historical fact. Anyone interested in Lucasfilm's current recounting of the Star Wars universe can visit its web site. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia. 12.4.231.134 17:47, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Look at the official movie poster from 1980 in the article. It doesn't have the words "Episode V," and it has the words "Star Wars" only appear in the tag line "The Star Wars Saga Continues." Look at any review from 1980. No reviewer in 1980 was aware that the title of this movie was "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." The Time article you refer to only underscores this. It says that "Empire Strikes Back" is identified as Episode V in the series, but this is a far cry from saying that the movie's title is "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." To the contrary, the Time article identifies the movie's title as "The Empire Strikes Back." 12.4.231.134 18:28, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
"Identified" and "titled" are very different things. Obviously, the opening sequence indicated that "The Empire Strikes Back" was the fifth episode in the series. But that is not the same as saying that its full official name was, in 1980, "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." It simply wasn't. The fact that the title has changed over time is an important point to discuss in the article. The article shouldn't falsely suggest that the film has always been known and identified as "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back." In any event, consider the compromise changes I made. 12.4.231.134 18:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Why such a long name? What is wrong with The Empire Strikes Back? -- mav 11:42, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
It was called "Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back" since it was released in 1980. See the IMDb profile. Osaboramirez 07:55, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The novellization of the book came out before this movie. -- 172.194.68.52 16:30, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From the article:
Surely James Earl Jones knew as well, seeing how he spoke the "I am your father" line. Right? -- TomPreuss 22:13, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I saw the credit for Yoda in the movie, and it says "Frank Oz Performing Yoda", so I will correct it, but leaving the link for "Yoda".
Also, I noticed that James Earl Jones is not credited, so I will remove that information.
In the 2000 VHS version of the Special Edition of "The Empires Strikes Back", James Earl Jones IS credited as "Voice of Darth Vader".
When you wackos have stopped your war and unprotected the page, correct a typo "When the Star Destroyer preforms its regular release of waste," -- should be "performs".
There doesn't seem to be any disputes here that I can see. Just wondering, what is it exactly that causes the page to be protected?
Ian McDiarmid only appears as The Emperor in the DVD version. Copperchair 05:58, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Adam, don't tell me I have no write to fix this article. I have MORE right, because my edits delete bad content. On what grounds do you argue that I don't have the right to edit this article? - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:38, August 25, 2005 (UTC)
From what I looked, all of the Star Wars movies have the opening crawl. While I am not sure if this is a clear copyright violation, we could put the opening crawls into one article, if yall so desire. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:22, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
I have taken the liberty of trying to condense the summary here. I would appreciate if everyone read it and edited in order to improve it as necessary before we post it here. KramarDanIkabu 02:47, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
By the way, the link for copyright information is [1] TheAlternateReality 01:21, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
A Link to the Past: if you keep vandalizing this page, your conduct will be reported to the administrators. Copperchair 03:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
Let me point out that there are more people that would side with me on this. If you want me to, I can get those people, including many admins. Do you want to do this quietly? - A Link to the Past (talk) 04:17, August 26, 2005 (UTC)
Is some sort of consensus going to be estableshed regarding who is going to be credited in the cast section, and how? I'm looking at a months worth of back-and-forth edits over this or that actor getting or not getting mention, and it's getting pretty silly. Please stop reverting and discuss it somewhere. I suggest here. - A Man In Black ( Talk | Contribs) 06:58, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Man in Black: It was discussed and there is a consensus, Copperchair just ignores it. — Phil Welch 07:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
It is important that we leave the "(as Dennis Lawson)" in there. Why? Dennis spells his name with one "n", but Lucas, for whatever reason, credited him as two-N Dennis. A search on IMDb for "Dennis Lawson" immediately redirects to "Denis Lawson" and shows his roles in Ep IV and V as being "(as Dennis Lawson)" just as we have here. The whole point is to indicate the discrepancy between what the actor's name is and what the credits say it is. (This is probably more important in situations where the actor was credited under a pseudonym, like Mike Judge in Office Space, rather than a simple spelling error.)-- chris. lawson 13:04, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
I've protected this page for the time being, and directed everyone involved here. Once consensus is established how to credit Denis Lawson (or people have cooled off), I'll unprotect it. - A Man In Black ( Talk | Contribs) 07:17, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
The guy deleted my comment to him on his talk page about his reverts as seen here. The Wookieepedian 07:45, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
OK, as someone who got into this whole mess doing RC patrol and who doesn't much give a crap one way or another about Star Wars (I like the movies, but as Johnny Cash up there said, this has got to be one of the lamest edit wars ever), here's my comment:
We should list Wedge. Why? Because he's major enough to be mentioned in the plot summary. If a character is important enough to be mentioned in the plot summary, the character is important enough for us to list in the credits. If the character isn't important enough for us to list in the credits, we shouldn't be talking about that character's exploits in the plot summary.
Since Wedge figures prominently in the movie, he gets a plot summary listing, and therefore a cast listing. Sounds reasonable, and there's ample consensus for this. Good.
OK, so how do we list him? Well, the way IMDb does it is the way it's listed in the section header here. In my fairly neutral opinion, that's how we should do it. IMDb is pretty much the industry standard, as far as I can tell, for how folks in the know list movie casts. I don't see any particularly compelling reason not to follow IMDb in this case.
Back to how we choose who gets listed. I wouldn't object to simply taking the cast as listed on the front page of IMDb. In other words, "Cast overview, first billed only." That might be a more objective means than the above suggestion, and like I said, I don't think we're going to exactly go wrong by following IMDb here.-- chris. lawson 21:23, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Again, care to cite an example of Wikipedia doing that? I'm not understanding your point here. Is there something specifically wrong with using IMDb's cast listings as a guideline?-- chris. lawson 03:33, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
Again, more importantly, do you have a better suggestion? Obviously, our current criteria aren't working. We need something objective that folks like Copperchair can't argue with. Remember, I'm mostly on your "side" here. :)-- chris. lawson 00:17, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I think this discussion in basic premise alone constitutes "feeding the troll". An editor who refuses to contribute in good faith ought to have his opinions discounted. — Phil Welch 01:48, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I ask you, in all honesty, what's wrong with Coffee's suggestion? That way the list remains short, but it also follows something objctive, not to mention its order. Copperchair 02:13, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
OK, holy fucking crap, people.
This isn't a goddamn federal case.
Surely we can come to some sort of agreement.
Adam, where's this Wikifilms project? I'm heading over there. The folks here obviously don't give a crap about making any useful suggestions. Phil, Adam, you guys with me?-- chris. lawson 04:37, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
I think ALttP has provided a better suggestion, namely, maintaining the status quo. We don't need a new guideline here, m:Avoid instruction creep. — Phil Welch 05:07, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Coming up with guidelines and policies in order to placate trolls like Copperchair isn't a good idea. — Phil Welch 05:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Okay, looks like just about everybody is in agreement on this. Let's try editing again. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Page is reprotected due to edit war over navbox templates. Discussion is ongoing at Talk:Star Wars#The debate over the correct templates. - A Man In Black ( conspire | past ops) 05:27, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
All 6 Star Wars film are protected from editing. This bickering is pointless. I find your lack of good faith disturbing. For the sake of unifying discussion, please try to settle the dispute at Talk:Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope. Coffee 06:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I have reordered the opening paragraphs a bit (not claiming perfection, though). Especially the first sentence with the two parantheses felt too convoluted to me. The only info I removed was that fans call the movie ESB or TESB. I don't think this information is so important that it needs to be in the first few words of this article -- fans know that anyway, and do non-fans really need this info? It seems the abbreviation isn't even used on the page. I think it can be dropped or put into "Trivia", but somebody who feels it is important should please find a better place to put it than the very first sentence. -- Kusma 06:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
I contributed some things on this movie page. I did:
I added these things to make the Wikipedia entry more complete and informative. I hope my contributions helped. :) -- Dancerlbw 12:12, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
What is this about 3-D version of the movie? Source, please.-- FDIS
What do you think? E Pluribus Anthony 19:35, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
The "Budget/Box Office" section says "The estimated budget was $18,000,000." The trivia section says "However, certain production problems (especially while filming the Hoth scenes in snow-stricken Norway) caused the budget to rise to $33 million, making it one of the most expensive movies of its day." The latter attributes the documentary Empire of Dreams.
That's a pretty wide discrepancy there. Both iMDB and BoxOfficeMojo cite the budget as $18M. Without further data to substantiate the $33M claim, should it be left in? BinaryTed 16:30, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Please argue here about whether to mention the EU origin of the Dark Side cave on Dagobah in this article here instead of revert warring. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 00:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I wasn't planning to make this a vote, because voting is evil. I just wanted to get the edit warriors talking, and some new voices involved. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 01:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
I've added some wording specifically disclaiming the Bpfassi bit as a retcon from a later novel. If someone could mention which novel it is mentioned in, we can probably put this to rest. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 21:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
I'd put the ref in myself but I'd rather not edit this article for a while. Kafziel 21:19, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
While we're talking about this, I'm going to try and rewrite the plot summary, to get it down from its terribly bloated 16 paragraphs. I make no promises about keeping every single plot point or bit of trivia that has been crammed in; while I realize ESB is a plot-dense movie, I'd rather the plot summary read like the ones in Blade Runner and Sunset Blvd. (1950 film), both FAs. - A Man In Bl♟ck ( conspire | past ops) 08:09, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
Anyone want to get this to featured article status? .... 01:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I noticed a mistake in the 'errors' section. Where it says, "In the second paragraph of the title crawl, the subject and verb don't agree. The subject ("Freedom fighters") is plural, while the verb ("has established") is singular."
This is incorrect. The subject of that sentence is not "Freedom fighters", it's "A band of freedom fighters", so the subject is "Band", so the singular tense still agrees. Can someone fix or delete? Thanks
I've been contributing most of the revisions for the Empire page in the last several days. Empire is one of my favorite films and this has been a labor of love. For those who caught and corrected my little errors of syntax, redundancy, and spelling — thank you!
My initial goal was to clarify the plot summary because I encountered a few problems. The first problem was something you may have noticed before: a fan-centric overemphasis on Star Wars gadgets, military hardware, and proper names from the Expanded Universe that are neither noteworthy by Wiki standards nor helpful for someone who came into this article "blind," i.e., not knowing much about Star Wars. I hope I don't offend any well-intentioned Wiki contributors, but some of the fanboy excesses were hilariously inappropriate. My favorite was a reference to Darth Vader doing a "Force Choke" on Admiral Ozzel, something explicitly described in the Star Wars: Battleground II video game but never referred to in the movies themselves.
I think that we as Wiki contributors — and, especially, as Star Wars fans — run the risk of forgetting that the vast majority of the Wiki readership doesn't give a doody about Star Wars. We need to constantly ask ourselves, "What would someone who knows nothing about this need to know?" and "What is NOTABLE by Wikipedia standards?" It's not our job to create a Star Wars Wiki entry exclusively for fanboys, (that's what the wonderful Wookiepedia is for!); we need to come into it dispassionately and be governed by what is explicitly revealed in the movie itself.
I edited out proper names like "Wampa", "AT-AT," and "Boba Fett" for that reason. They are never named in the film and their presence in the plot summary just confuses things for a reader. I consulted the film a few times, noticing for example that "X-wing" is named aloud (by one of the pilots escorting the Rebel transports out of the Hoth system), but "TIE fighter" is not. This is not to completely ignore a term like "TIE Fighter" You will find that descriptors are linked to other Wiki entries: e.g, "Imperial Walkers" is linked to the AT-AT entry, "The bounty hunter" is linked to the Boba Fett entry, "Imperial pursuit craft" is liked to the TIE Fighter entry, and so on.
My second goal was to make the whole thing a pleasure to read. I was especially aware of this near the climax. From Luke's duel with Vader to the end of the film, I wanted to communicate a sense of the significance of these events — Luke's sense of failure and despair, Leia's mysterious connection with Luke, Leia's feelings for the missing Han, Vader's contemplative pose, and the heroes' relief and sense of purpose in the final scene as they anticipate rescuing Han.
My third goal was to clarify and streamline the other prose sections. These were largely left unedited — previous Wiki contributors had compiled a fantastic wealth of data, especially about the filmmakers' style and technique. I mostly removed redundancies and gave the sections a nice scrub of logic, making sure cause-and-effect relationships between facts made sense.
My overall goal has been to simply make sure the whole thing flows. This meant grouping most of the prose sections together and relegating the tables, charts, and lists to the end.
I have not removed any factual contributions, though I wish the contributors would have cited their sources, especially about the production of Empire. I sincerely doubt Wikipedia would make Empire a Featured Article if it doesn't have citations.
I personally don't care for the excessive listing and table-ing of elements like, for example, a thumbnail of Mark Hamill. First of all, it's redundant, because we know what he looks like in the frame-grabs above. But more importantly, it defeats the purpose of Wikipedia: that LINKS knit the whole thing together and if you want to see what Mark Hamill looks like, you click his name. It's that simple. Excessive table-ing and charting dishonors the Wiki contributors who wrote the "Mark Hamill" entry.
I would ask what this Talk group thinks about the notion of going through the Star Wars film entries — just the movies themselves, not the Expanded Universe stuff — with a big red pen, metaphorically speaking, and editing out the fan-centric stuff. I do intend to tackle the A New Hope and Return of the Jedi plot summaries next.
Matt Genné 15:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Reasons for failing -
Please see WP:CITE and WP:FAIR. H ig hway Rainbow Sneakers 10:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Could/should the soundtrack section be expanded? The section as it exists seems to only mention the 1997 Special Edition double CD release (originally by RCA and later re-released by Sony). The first release was a double LP (the second and final such release for the Star Wars series; RotJ only got a single LP/cassette release). Then there was the 1993 Star Wars Trilogy soundtrack box set, released by 20th Century Fox Film Scores - each movie in the trilogy got one disc each, with bonus material from all three on disc four. -- JohnDBuell 03:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The second point of trivia says "This is the only one of the six Star Wars films in which no major character dies." Which major character dies in Ep II? I know the question isn't directly related to Ep V but it's on this page, so I'll ask here. -- Tim ( talk), ( contribs) 23:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Um, Jango Fett? -- Dunhamrc 14:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
In the filmography section of his article, Empire Strikes Back is listed among the films Treat Williams has been in. He is also in [Category:Star Wars actors]. Was Williams actually in the movie? I don't seem to remember. Do any of you know what character he played? Serpent-A 06:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Lots of changes to the article lately, I know. One of the big ones was the elimination of many fair use images, but if you take a look at any of the prequel Star Wars movie articles, you see a great deal of restraint about which ones they use, since only a few are allowed for FA. I hope to soon submit this for GA status, and help do the groundwork for FA status. Judgesurreal777 04:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
We need a plot picture of Yoda, and the iconic moment from this film is Vader beckoning Luke to the dark side. I vote we go back to the two other plot pictures. Judgesurreal777 13:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I really want this article to become a GA, but unfortunately I have noticed several glaring problems.
Good Article in the making here, but I think it needs to receive a thorough copyedit before it moves on.- Dark Kubrick 00:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I think it's in the ESB Special Edition VHS that people from ILM talk about these mattes and they were not mistakes; they decided to not print the optical elements of the cockpits at full opacity so that the black lines that traditionally plagued optical mattes (especially when compositing elements into snowy scenes) would be minimized. When they released the SE back in '97 they re-composited the elements digitally, which allowed them to make the cockpits fully opaque and not show the outside landscape, while not showing any matte lines either. On another note, I saw the note on Treat Williams being one of the Rebel Officers in Hoth, and I saw no mention of John Ratzenberger's small appearance as a Rebel Officer, which is mentioned in his article; there are two stubs about his character, Major Bren Derlin in the List of minor Star Wars Rebel characters or Commander Derlin; apparently they're the same character but I believe that the lines given for his character in the Commander Derlin stub were spoken by another actor... Daniel Villalobos 23:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
The 'spoilers end here' tag is missing. It starts at the beginning of the spoilers, but there's nothing at the end of the spoilers.
The "Production" section is an interesting and informative read—right up to the point when you start reading the last, big paragraph. It is simply a long list of trivia, seperatied by periods with no apparent connection. I suggest that it either be turned into a list and moved further down into a new "Trivia" section, or it be reworded into a more coherent text. As it is, it just doesn't fit there and reads terrible. Opinions? — Mütze 14:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Just a question - why is this in here? It's not a "fact" more of an opinion, at least there should be supporting idea's to this (such as why is it considered the darkest? In ANH for example Ben, Owen, Beru, the Jawa's, etc. etc. die while in this one only something bad happens to Han really).
Is not the Galaxy at the end the Milky Way? It seems like it, though I could be wrong. NapoleonAlanparte 11:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I'm sorry to have failed this article's GA nomination, perhaps with some more time this article will reach that status. Some points I noticed...
Overall I enjoyed reading this article and feel that it doesn't have far to go for GA status, provided that it receives a good copyedit and my suggestions are acted upon. Cheers for such a great attempt. Deyyaz [ Talk | Contribs ] 01:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm deleting the paragraph on Alan Dean Foster's novel Splinter of the Mind's Eye being a possible low-budget sequel, although I believe it to be true, I can't find any suitable sources. If anyone is able to find one, please post it here and I will re-add it into the article. Thanks. :) The Filmaker 03:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The idea of having Vader as Luke's father mimics Darkseid and Orion.
Also, if Luke had though it through, he could have done more by accepting Vader's offer to join the Emperor insincerely, acting as a spy within the Emperor's inner circle for the Rebels.
15:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)Enda80
I've decided to rewrite the article to state that the film received favorable reviews as opposed to mixed reviews. So far I have been unable to locate any notable critic other than Vincent Canby that wrote a negative review about the film. Rotten Tomatoes features only one bad review out of 51 (Canby's), and the Empire of Dreams film states that the film was received well. The only other source of this supposed outlook is Ben Burtt on the audio commentary. He will be mentioned but I don't think the "mixed" evidence outweighs the "favorable" evidence. I'll begin writing the article soon. If anyone has a valid objection, please feel free bring up here. :) The Filmaker 23:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)