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Why does this book have a separate entry rather than being part of the article on Andreas von Bülow? It's not note-worthy enough to warrant its own page. Of course, if it is merged with the von Bülow article, the man may sound like a paranoid nut-case rather than a responsible person supporting a noble cause. Ande B. 20:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Try reading Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(books)#Note_on_notability_criteria -- Striver 02:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Striver, I read the section on notability criteria before posing the quesition. My feeling is that the book has not had wide enough circulation in the English speaking community to be deemed "notable" enough to warrant a separate page on the English Wikipedia. It's primary claim to notability is the political position of the author. This info might, however, be well placed on von Bulow's page or on a page specifically addressing arguments and organizations that are compatible with the subject matter. I don't know that getting into the specifics of some of the assertions in the book is very helpful unless you want to precipitate a lot of flames or attacks on the author's believability, motivations and, quite honestly, firmness of mind. The title of the article, referring to the CIA and September 11, might be more attention grabbing than the name Andreas von Bülow but perhaps you could devise adequate links that bring those interesetd in the topic to his page. Ande B 02:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(books)#Note_on_notability_criteria:
The article states the book was "number three in the country" but what best seller list was that on? Esquizombi 15:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Great work. Balanced and cited coverage of a controversial subject. savidan (talk) (e@) 19:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the entry dealing with the contents of the book is miniscule, while e. g. the criticism of the book, taken mostly from a single "Der Spiegel" article featured much more prominently and convolutedly, even though this article didn't even deal exclusively with the book in question.
I have taken the liberty to correct some of this disproportionality as well as the clear and blatant bias in some parts. Wiki should be neutral, and not the government loudspeaker for what is deemed appropriate thought and criticism. I was escpecially careful to delete any suggestion that von Bülow has a "theory" or "states" something he cannot possibly know or prove. He does not do that as is correctly pointed in the short summary of contents.
Forgot to include signature and time stamp, so here they are:
-- Rkrichbaum 03:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC) (previous edits as 84.178.175.61)
I have corrected the paragraph which didn't make sense and included a reference to the ARD interview transcript, hopefully in a satisfactory manner.
As to your other points:
- SPD reaction when the book was published (the SPD government privately distanced themselves from the book; we have a citation for this so it should be included).
I had missed the citation, now I see it's from the Telegraph: "Berlin has made no official response to the book, but behind closed doors ministers have tried to distance themselves from his radical views."
Is this really a verified / verifiable claim? ... "behind closed doors" (as in "sources that refuse to be named"? why on earth would they do that ...) ... "ministers" (how many?) ... "have tried to distance themselves" (really?, how? to what extent? why only tried, not just did it?) "from his radical views" (which ones exactly?). What a mealy-mouthed weasel-worded sentence. I do not even understand what the Telegraph reporter is referring to when she says "radical views". And all of this despite the fact that nobody would think that von Bülow speaks for the current (now former) government in the first place.
- Also, the book caused a controversy within the German publication industry, not on its substantive content but on whether it was a wise or even ethically or journalistically defensible to publish such a book, especially so soon after 9/11.
This is still mentioned in the article. There is no need to refer extensively to such a storm in a teapot - the Börsenblatt and Deutsche Welle are not exactly opinion leaders in Germany and this debate was quickly over.
-Articles on books should be on the books is palpably true - but it includes details like: what were the contents of the book? Who wrote it and how was it written? What was the critical and political reaction to the book? Did the book cause any controversies, and if so, what were they and who was upset? Was the book a commercial success? Did it achieve any influence? Book articles shouldn't just be plot rehashes.
I agree with each and every point. The public controversy was over in a matter of weeks, though. You publicly target someone for anti-Semitism in Germany - and the matter is closed. As to the other anti-no,no - anti-Americanism, the allegation is not as damning, but more often than not used as a broad brush to dismiss anything critical of our dear friends across the Atlantic. Comes up occasionally as a topic, but is far from being a consolidated view or movement or something like that. The "conspiracy theory" allegation is, in part, something new - as von Bülow correctly observes, we don't have such a "culture" of conspiracy theories as the US do - in part it is of course associated with the Nazi's demonization of the Jews.
The latter is the reason why I object to the inclusion of "conspiracy theory" into the lead. In a strictly American context, such a characterisation might be fair. But elsewhere, even if a number of German papers and radio stations "perceive" von Bülow's speculative reasoning as "a conspiracy theory" - the connotation undoubtedly is, especially in combination with the (very vague) allegation of anti-Semitism which is cited in the article: that von Bülow is a Nazi, a closet case at best. And this is simply not true! Let alone supported by facts. There was an organised media campaign against the book - let's not perpetuate this by reducing Wikipedia to an echo of strongly opinionated articles.
-- Rkrichbaum 03:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have attempted to provide a summary of the main claims of the book, after having read it, and having it available for reference. Someone keeps undoing it to the original version which had only one sentence on the book's content. It's ok to keep on editing, this may be improved, but just deleting additional, accurate content? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.5.48 ( talk) 02:49, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I've pulled this page from being under WikiProject Iraq - I can't see how this counts as an Iraq-related article, but people are welcome to add it back if a coherent reason can be given. More suitable projects have been added instead, largely based on those allocated to the primary 9/11 attacks article, USGOV to represent the fact that the CIA is involved, and WikiProject Germany since this is a German book that caused more controversy in Germany than elsewhere. It's possible that this has resulted in project allocation overkill but I've set the importance to "low" to compensate, where possible. TheGrappler 06:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I will pull one of the "citation required" tags in the lead section (regarding allegations that the book fostered anti-Semitism and/or anti-Americanism), since lead sections are generally not expected to be choked up with references. They should, however, only summarise the following sections of the article. Since the existence of anti-Semitism allegations is backed up by references for later statements in the article, I'm happy that the need for a citation is fulfilled.
There is another statement apparently added by an anti-conspiracy theory editor that has also been flagged as requiring a citation - namely, that the book has no scientific evidence i.e. that it is nonsense. It is beyond the scope of this article to attempt to debunk the entire web of 9/11 conspiracy theories that Bulow was drawing from, so I'll pull the statement entirely. TheGrappler 06:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I am conducting a reassessment of this article as part of the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force/Sweeps|GA sweeps process]. Jezhotwells ( talk) 20:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Quick fail criteria assessment
No obvious problems checking against GA criteria, proceed to substantive review. Jezhotwells ( talk) 20:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The first paragraph now contains more information about the main points addressed in the book. There are others, and possibly other readers will add to this section.
I also took out the sentence "However, Deutsche Welle found other industry observers who credited an increasingly competitive German publishing market with persuading companies to take on books they previously might not have accepted." because it is not sourced and it is essentially the same statement as the following, sourced statement, namely questioning the wisdom of the publisher in releasing the book. "Other industry observers" which were "found" and suggested that the publishing market was "increasingly competitive" is too vague and not entirely factual at this point.
Furthermore the "Boersenblatt" is not a bookstore, but an industry (trade) publication, so I deleted the reference bookstore.
I've deleted the separate section on anti-semitism (which was introduced by another editor in 2007) and put it under the header of response. The motives of the author have been questioned as either anti-American or anti-semitic. The author maintains a negative view of the Bush/Cheney administration, as well as of the geopolitical strategy outlined in Brzesinski's work on the new world order. It seems important to reflect this adequately, and not follow demagoguery in this description.
I have also looked up the reference to Wistrich. This is the extent to which the book is cited "Several bestsellers appeared in Germany and France during 2003, blaming the CIA for 9/11, depicting George Bush as a “true reincarnation of Hitler,” or insinuating a hidden connection between the Israeli Mossad and the perpetrators of the Twin Towers massacre.49"
"Footnote 49 See “Panoptikum des Absurden,” Der Spiegel 37/2003. This reportage demolishes the conspiracy theories of best-selling German authors like Gerhard Wisnewski (“Operation 9/11—An Attack on the Globe”), Mathias Bröckers, and former German cabinet minister Andreas von Bülow (“The CIA and September 11th”), who believe George W. Bush capable of any dastardly deed and insinuate an Israeli/Jewish connection." There is no reference to "perpetuating myths and stereotyping Jews as criminal and conspiratorial" neither in the book, nor in the article by Wistrich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.7.51 ( talk) 05:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I also added a reference to a new edition of the book in August 2011, and a sentence on this in the summary of the book's content. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.139.12.137 (
talk) 06:14, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I described Schroem as a 'journalist and author' according to entries on his own websites, where he states that his main interest is in investigative journalism. "Intelligence expert" suggests a professional who has worked as an intelligence officer, a social scientist, a politician, lawyer or some other professional training. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.12.137 ( talk) 06:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I also added von Buelow's credentials as having served on the parliamentary committee on intelligence agencies. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.139.12.137 (
talk) 06:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that the book is the primary topic. Dab page moved to The CIA and September 11 (disambiguation) and deleted. Jenks24 ( talk) 14:17, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
The CIA and September 11 (book) →
The CIA and September 11 – This is the only thing in Wikipedia with this exact title. We have no article dedicated to the role of the CIA with respect to 9/11, and the CIA plays only a small role in the commission report and the conspiracy theories; any ambiguity can be resolved in a hatnote, or the "See also" section.
bd2412
T 18:12, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
The CIA and September 11 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The CIA and September 11 has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Why does this book have a separate entry rather than being part of the article on Andreas von Bülow? It's not note-worthy enough to warrant its own page. Of course, if it is merged with the von Bülow article, the man may sound like a paranoid nut-case rather than a responsible person supporting a noble cause. Ande B. 20:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Try reading Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(books)#Note_on_notability_criteria -- Striver 02:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Striver, I read the section on notability criteria before posing the quesition. My feeling is that the book has not had wide enough circulation in the English speaking community to be deemed "notable" enough to warrant a separate page on the English Wikipedia. It's primary claim to notability is the political position of the author. This info might, however, be well placed on von Bulow's page or on a page specifically addressing arguments and organizations that are compatible with the subject matter. I don't know that getting into the specifics of some of the assertions in the book is very helpful unless you want to precipitate a lot of flames or attacks on the author's believability, motivations and, quite honestly, firmness of mind. The title of the article, referring to the CIA and September 11, might be more attention grabbing than the name Andreas von Bülow but perhaps you could devise adequate links that bring those interesetd in the topic to his page. Ande B 02:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(books)#Note_on_notability_criteria:
The article states the book was "number three in the country" but what best seller list was that on? Esquizombi 15:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
Great work. Balanced and cited coverage of a controversial subject. savidan (talk) (e@) 19:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the entry dealing with the contents of the book is miniscule, while e. g. the criticism of the book, taken mostly from a single "Der Spiegel" article featured much more prominently and convolutedly, even though this article didn't even deal exclusively with the book in question.
I have taken the liberty to correct some of this disproportionality as well as the clear and blatant bias in some parts. Wiki should be neutral, and not the government loudspeaker for what is deemed appropriate thought and criticism. I was escpecially careful to delete any suggestion that von Bülow has a "theory" or "states" something he cannot possibly know or prove. He does not do that as is correctly pointed in the short summary of contents.
Forgot to include signature and time stamp, so here they are:
-- Rkrichbaum 03:35, 23 April 2006 (UTC) (previous edits as 84.178.175.61)
I have corrected the paragraph which didn't make sense and included a reference to the ARD interview transcript, hopefully in a satisfactory manner.
As to your other points:
- SPD reaction when the book was published (the SPD government privately distanced themselves from the book; we have a citation for this so it should be included).
I had missed the citation, now I see it's from the Telegraph: "Berlin has made no official response to the book, but behind closed doors ministers have tried to distance themselves from his radical views."
Is this really a verified / verifiable claim? ... "behind closed doors" (as in "sources that refuse to be named"? why on earth would they do that ...) ... "ministers" (how many?) ... "have tried to distance themselves" (really?, how? to what extent? why only tried, not just did it?) "from his radical views" (which ones exactly?). What a mealy-mouthed weasel-worded sentence. I do not even understand what the Telegraph reporter is referring to when she says "radical views". And all of this despite the fact that nobody would think that von Bülow speaks for the current (now former) government in the first place.
- Also, the book caused a controversy within the German publication industry, not on its substantive content but on whether it was a wise or even ethically or journalistically defensible to publish such a book, especially so soon after 9/11.
This is still mentioned in the article. There is no need to refer extensively to such a storm in a teapot - the Börsenblatt and Deutsche Welle are not exactly opinion leaders in Germany and this debate was quickly over.
-Articles on books should be on the books is palpably true - but it includes details like: what were the contents of the book? Who wrote it and how was it written? What was the critical and political reaction to the book? Did the book cause any controversies, and if so, what were they and who was upset? Was the book a commercial success? Did it achieve any influence? Book articles shouldn't just be plot rehashes.
I agree with each and every point. The public controversy was over in a matter of weeks, though. You publicly target someone for anti-Semitism in Germany - and the matter is closed. As to the other anti-no,no - anti-Americanism, the allegation is not as damning, but more often than not used as a broad brush to dismiss anything critical of our dear friends across the Atlantic. Comes up occasionally as a topic, but is far from being a consolidated view or movement or something like that. The "conspiracy theory" allegation is, in part, something new - as von Bülow correctly observes, we don't have such a "culture" of conspiracy theories as the US do - in part it is of course associated with the Nazi's demonization of the Jews.
The latter is the reason why I object to the inclusion of "conspiracy theory" into the lead. In a strictly American context, such a characterisation might be fair. But elsewhere, even if a number of German papers and radio stations "perceive" von Bülow's speculative reasoning as "a conspiracy theory" - the connotation undoubtedly is, especially in combination with the (very vague) allegation of anti-Semitism which is cited in the article: that von Bülow is a Nazi, a closet case at best. And this is simply not true! Let alone supported by facts. There was an organised media campaign against the book - let's not perpetuate this by reducing Wikipedia to an echo of strongly opinionated articles.
-- Rkrichbaum 03:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
I have attempted to provide a summary of the main claims of the book, after having read it, and having it available for reference. Someone keeps undoing it to the original version which had only one sentence on the book's content. It's ok to keep on editing, this may be improved, but just deleting additional, accurate content? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.5.48 ( talk) 02:49, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I've pulled this page from being under WikiProject Iraq - I can't see how this counts as an Iraq-related article, but people are welcome to add it back if a coherent reason can be given. More suitable projects have been added instead, largely based on those allocated to the primary 9/11 attacks article, USGOV to represent the fact that the CIA is involved, and WikiProject Germany since this is a German book that caused more controversy in Germany than elsewhere. It's possible that this has resulted in project allocation overkill but I've set the importance to "low" to compensate, where possible. TheGrappler 06:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I will pull one of the "citation required" tags in the lead section (regarding allegations that the book fostered anti-Semitism and/or anti-Americanism), since lead sections are generally not expected to be choked up with references. They should, however, only summarise the following sections of the article. Since the existence of anti-Semitism allegations is backed up by references for later statements in the article, I'm happy that the need for a citation is fulfilled.
There is another statement apparently added by an anti-conspiracy theory editor that has also been flagged as requiring a citation - namely, that the book has no scientific evidence i.e. that it is nonsense. It is beyond the scope of this article to attempt to debunk the entire web of 9/11 conspiracy theories that Bulow was drawing from, so I'll pull the statement entirely. TheGrappler 06:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I am conducting a reassessment of this article as part of the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force/Sweeps|GA sweeps process]. Jezhotwells ( talk) 20:44, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
Quick fail criteria assessment
No obvious problems checking against GA criteria, proceed to substantive review. Jezhotwells ( talk) 20:46, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
The first paragraph now contains more information about the main points addressed in the book. There are others, and possibly other readers will add to this section.
I also took out the sentence "However, Deutsche Welle found other industry observers who credited an increasingly competitive German publishing market with persuading companies to take on books they previously might not have accepted." because it is not sourced and it is essentially the same statement as the following, sourced statement, namely questioning the wisdom of the publisher in releasing the book. "Other industry observers" which were "found" and suggested that the publishing market was "increasingly competitive" is too vague and not entirely factual at this point.
Furthermore the "Boersenblatt" is not a bookstore, but an industry (trade) publication, so I deleted the reference bookstore.
I've deleted the separate section on anti-semitism (which was introduced by another editor in 2007) and put it under the header of response. The motives of the author have been questioned as either anti-American or anti-semitic. The author maintains a negative view of the Bush/Cheney administration, as well as of the geopolitical strategy outlined in Brzesinski's work on the new world order. It seems important to reflect this adequately, and not follow demagoguery in this description.
I have also looked up the reference to Wistrich. This is the extent to which the book is cited "Several bestsellers appeared in Germany and France during 2003, blaming the CIA for 9/11, depicting George Bush as a “true reincarnation of Hitler,” or insinuating a hidden connection between the Israeli Mossad and the perpetrators of the Twin Towers massacre.49"
"Footnote 49 See “Panoptikum des Absurden,” Der Spiegel 37/2003. This reportage demolishes the conspiracy theories of best-selling German authors like Gerhard Wisnewski (“Operation 9/11—An Attack on the Globe”), Mathias Bröckers, and former German cabinet minister Andreas von Bülow (“The CIA and September 11th”), who believe George W. Bush capable of any dastardly deed and insinuate an Israeli/Jewish connection." There is no reference to "perpetuating myths and stereotyping Jews as criminal and conspiratorial" neither in the book, nor in the article by Wistrich. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.7.51 ( talk) 05:19, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I also added a reference to a new edition of the book in August 2011, and a sentence on this in the summary of the book's content. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.139.12.137 (
talk) 06:14, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I described Schroem as a 'journalist and author' according to entries on his own websites, where he states that his main interest is in investigative journalism. "Intelligence expert" suggests a professional who has worked as an intelligence officer, a social scientist, a politician, lawyer or some other professional training. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.12.137 ( talk) 06:21, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
I also added von Buelow's credentials as having served on the parliamentary committee on intelligence agencies. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
71.139.12.137 (
talk) 06:44, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. The consensus is that the book is the primary topic. Dab page moved to The CIA and September 11 (disambiguation) and deleted. Jenks24 ( talk) 14:17, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
The CIA and September 11 (book) →
The CIA and September 11 – This is the only thing in Wikipedia with this exact title. We have no article dedicated to the role of the CIA with respect to 9/11, and the CIA plays only a small role in the commission report and the conspiracy theories; any ambiguity can be resolved in a hatnote, or the "See also" section.
bd2412
T 18:12, 12 November 2015 (UTC)