This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Please include photos of the kennedy compound on that page. include multiple photos, as many people are curious about the estate.
About "Ted Kennedy's Driving Record", the source cited is possibly biased, and I detect a hint of POV from that segment. Does anyone object to removing it (or at least, cleaning it up so it looks more encyclopedic)? -- Kukuman 02:44, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why is this at Edward Kennedy instead of at Teddy or Ted Kennedy? Wikipedia policy is most common name. Rick K 06:10, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)
Will wait a couple more days -- if nobody gives us an argument why it should stay here, I'm going to move it to Ted Kennedy. Rick K 00:18, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
Since the word "liberal" is sometimes seen as a negative, should it remain? Not only should it remain, it should be be augmented with extreme leftwing liberal whacko. You do a consistent disservice to conservatives by consistently painting them as extremists, if only to foster your left-leaning agendae, so why not be consistent and quit painting these neo-socialists with an undeserving degree of moderation.
Also, since there is an external link to Kennedy's driving record, I feel that whole section can be deleted in this article.
The word "liberal" is NOT a negative. Let's not delete it just because some people like to use it that way. Rick K 00:18, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
Kennedy is a liberal; I doubt Kennedy himself would disagree with that designation, and in fact would probably consider it a badge of honor. I agree that it should remain. ffirehorse 04:07, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
He became notorious for running red lights while in law school? Is this true? People around the country were aware of some rich law student who was always running red lights? Acsenray 19:35, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"After his brothers John and Robert were murdered (in 1963 and 1968, respectively), he took on the role of surrogate father for 13 more children."
I always thought heads of state could get "assassinated," not murdered. Correct me if I'm wrong. - (unsigned)
Yes, the legal charge is indeed "murder," but typically when you refer to the murder of a head of state, a politician, or even of an individual of notable fame, "assassinated" is the more accepted terminology
I am not too familiar with Ted Kennedy, but would suspect that he is neither gay nor a communist. - (unsigned)
I agree that it's not a top-line item; but my bigger problem is, is it alcoholism? Yeah, he's a big drinker, but there's a difference between partying and being dependent (I've tried both, and discovered I'm not alcohol-dependent, I'm just an alcohol- savant). He probably has an alcohol abuse problem, but unless someone can point to an alcohol dependency the word alcoholism is probably inappropriate. His drinking is mentioned in other contexts, but not necessarily as a lifelong character point, so we'll probably revisit this one again. I'm also probably going to go fix-up the alcoholism page, because it doesn't distinguish between abuse and dependency properly, and it's a significant distinction. Blair P. Houghton 22:57, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
if the drowned/suffocated controversy added anything of substance to the story in this context, I'd surely have included it myself. It's a detail for another forum. A bio page just isn't appropriate to become a case-file. I say the cleo o'donnell quote stays, though it'd be really cool if there was a cogent attribution of it; it seems it's coming from someone's book, and there might be info on its provenance somewhere. Blair P. Houghton 05:36, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is website YTedK which has a photo of a man sitting on top of Kennedy's car with his body out of the water from the waist up.That would seem to reconfirm the six feet deep opinion. However the body of water there, although referred to as a "pond," is salt water and therefore would be subject to tidal fluctuations. A person would need to have the tidal charts for that period, know the time the photo was taken(easy), and know when the car entered the water. There is a dispute as to the time frame of the accident and Senator Kennedy was not exactly forthcoming about the whole episode.
I had to add the "six feet of water" to the article again. Besides the Time magazine article from November 1979, I can cite other sources that all agree that it was six feet of water. The FBI report entitled "The Perjury of Edward Kennedy" states that the car was six feet underwater. John Farrer, the scuba diver, guessed that the car was six to seven feet underwater. And from Ted Kennedy in his testimony he states that he waded to the car and that he could stand next to the car. Additionally, he stated that while holding onto the car when trying to save Mary Jo, the water reached up to some point on his body (the exact point is not detailed in the report). Since he is slightly taller than six feet tall, all his descriptions of the depth of water would indicate about six feet of water. Lokifer 00:31, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A car six feet under water would be in more than six feet of water, but I suspect somewhere there's a linguistic problem and it was in six feet of water. I also find it odd that there's an FBI report called "The Perjury of Edward Kennedy." Google doesn't mention it anywhere; is there a link? Blair P. Houghton 00:48, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry. You're correct that it's a linguistic problem, because the water was six feet deep where the car was. As for the FBI report, it can be found here [2]. Lokifer 02:34, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
According to that link, it is not entitled "The Perjury of Edward Kennedy". Is there some other site you are getting all of this stuff off of? If so, scholarly honesty means you should acknowledge your actual sources. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:51, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
The link brings you to a page that has the FBI files. It's split into two parts. If one has enough common sense to read what the site says and click on the links, one would find that the testimony is included in the PDFs. The testimony is part of a bigger file (not a computer file but a report, since I have to baby talk you through the steps) called "The Perjury of Edward Kennedy". This report is split between the two links. Now do I need to find an audio version of it to help you? Lokifer 02:59, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No. I'll stick to calling you "condescendingcondescending" because the word that first came to mind would probably get me banned. You said it was the title < and this PDF loads very slowly. >. Once I looked and found a different title, I didn't go further. I don't usually bother eating a whole egg when the first bite tastes bad. --
Jmabel |
Talk 03:31, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to agree or disagree with you on whether I am "consescending", but unforunately I have no idea what that word means. I'd hate to see the problems that some people would have if I used a source that would involve a trip to the library and the use of the Dewey decimal system. Lokifer 03:46, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
PDF loads slow. Title buried 20 pages into a group of documents. Sounds like excuses to me. Besides, my excuse for not listing the pages is the burden of the number of pages in the document and the slow PDF file. Lokifer 04:47, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since you got lost finding the files, I shouldn't be surprised that you don't understand sarcasm. Are you denying that the testimony is from Kennedy? Are you denying that he said both things I stated above? Are you in fact denying that Farrer's opinion about the depth of the water? How about the Time magazine article that places it at 6 feet also? Have you produced an impeccable source that cites a deeper depth where the car was located? Lokifer 06:39, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What sticky topic? People keep removing or changing the depth of the water. I have supplied a few sources about the depth of the pond where the car was located--something no one else has done. I then get criticized for supplying a link to Time Magazine because it's part of their archive that is for premium members and the FIOA FBI files because I didn't give the exact links to the two files. I can add more sources, but I'm pretty sure it will be criticized. Let the criticism begin: Edgartown Police Chief Dominick Arena, the man who arrested Ted Kennedy, has in his report that the water was only six feet deep. Lokifer 07:25, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
BTW, my count so far has five sources stating that it was six feet of water. 1) Ted Kennedy states in his testimony that when he tried to save Mary Jo, he could stand next to the car...making it about six feet deep. 2) Ted Kennedy states that he had to hold on to the car because of the current and indicates (the source doesn't show where exactly he indictates) where the water level is at...making it around six feet, with a liberal area of about one foot above or below his height. 3) The scuba diver that removed Mary Jo from the car then the car from the pond states that the water was about six or seven feet deep. 4) Edgartown Police Chief Dominick Arena's police report and a diagram of the accident has it stated that the water was six feet deep. 5) An article in Time Magazine from 1979, ten years after the incident, has it stated that the water level was six feet deep. By my count, that's four sources from 1969, including two from Kennedy himself. Lokifer 07:37, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm not picking on you, Loki. All those criticisms are valid. You did imply it was an FBI report when it was a crackpot rant the FBI kept because it keeps everything (did you also see the letter from Mary Jo Kopechne, return-addressed from her grave? I can't imagine the whole disk drives of flamage the FBI has to have around for Clinton and Bush... I can imagine they have a few dozen of my own letters to the White House...). Part of their job is investigating the crackpots. They probably have a a file on Patterson with a duplicate and a cross-reference. (N.B.: the FBI can claim prior art if anyone tries to patent the Wikipedia; they just did it by hand for a hundred years). At any rate, if you don't agree that I've shown that the water was almost certainly more than six feet deep, that six feet is a minimum that was almost certainly not reached when Kennedy crashed the car or was in the water himself, then maybe we can add a para. about the estimation. Although I'm thinking of creating a whole new article for the incident and just templating the official story into both the Mary Jo and Ted articles, and giving it a couple of sandboxes, one for pro-Ted POV rants, and one for anti-Ted POV rants. I really think their bio pages are no place for a case file. Blair P. Houghton 18:16, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ah, sorry about my revision earlier, then -- there was no depth listed, and I gave four feet the benefit of the doubt as being accurate since a) I've heard the value before in media and b) previous values were omitted -- though I should've known better...
EggplantWizard 23:26, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see why anyone would defend Senator Kennedy. saltforkgunman
Ollie, the original was POV, but I recast it long ago as an NPOV quotation and explanation of the statement. Occasionally an anon poster change it to "is used correctly" in there, and POV it up again, but we revert those. It's typical of the gun-nut rhetoric, and the rhetoric against Kennedy. He's actually proud that goons like these target him. I don't mind illustrating their ignorance. Blair P. Houghton 21:59, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There needs to be a balanced ,factual account of this piece of craps efforts to subvert the Constitution and infringe on our freedom to own and use guns.The page needs to be edited to reflect that Kennedy is a gun control fanatic.How can this article be complete ,and balanced when there is no mention of the fact that this person has worked tirelessly to destroy out Constitutionally protected rights? Saltforkgunman 03:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Ollieplatt wants to remove the following section of the article because he/she claims it is redundant and POV.
I disagree: I don't think it is redundant. I've reverted the article but if Ollieplatt reverts the article again, I won't revert it back. Aoi
However, do you think this section of the article should be kept? 15:19, 18 Jan 2005 Aoi
This article has all the structural integrity of Bart's treehouse. The most important and current things should be at the top. As for that paragraph, it has many problems:
Ted Kennedy's article is riddled with liberal POV, I have tried to change it for the better but am outnumbered by partisans. Blair, can I suggest a calmer more polite tone, it will get you further, as I have discovered. Ollieplatt 06:41, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
1. "The dean of the liberal wing" is a figure of speech indicating he leads the bloc. 2. He's stated he's very proud. 3. If you have more info on his involvement with Kerry's campaign, by all means add it to that section. The previous versions had the same facts as the current one, but were cast to pretend that he buried Kerry.
This article was far more POV-infected after you edited it. He's a liberal, so there will be facts indicating such, including--horrors--things he's done that are good. How scandalous.
I've seen several examples of your tone tonight, Ollie, both in your edits and your comments to other people. Your questioning mine is pure sophistry. Blair P. Houghton 06:54, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Someone recently, anonymously, and without citation changed this from Brookline to Boston. I have no idea which is accurate; does someone have a citation? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:02, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
I would like to make this move for a few reasons:
Vote closed, see below
Vote closed, see below
Vote closed, see below
This is an encyclopedia, not a county recorder's office. Blair P. Houghton 00:27, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. violet/riga (t) 18:25, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That picture barely looks like Senator Kennedy--on the biographical directory there's a very recent picture I think should be used.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Please include photos of the kennedy compound on that page. include multiple photos, as many people are curious about the estate.
About "Ted Kennedy's Driving Record", the source cited is possibly biased, and I detect a hint of POV from that segment. Does anyone object to removing it (or at least, cleaning it up so it looks more encyclopedic)? -- Kukuman 02:44, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Why is this at Edward Kennedy instead of at Teddy or Ted Kennedy? Wikipedia policy is most common name. Rick K 06:10, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)
Will wait a couple more days -- if nobody gives us an argument why it should stay here, I'm going to move it to Ted Kennedy. Rick K 00:18, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
Since the word "liberal" is sometimes seen as a negative, should it remain? Not only should it remain, it should be be augmented with extreme leftwing liberal whacko. You do a consistent disservice to conservatives by consistently painting them as extremists, if only to foster your left-leaning agendae, so why not be consistent and quit painting these neo-socialists with an undeserving degree of moderation.
Also, since there is an external link to Kennedy's driving record, I feel that whole section can be deleted in this article.
The word "liberal" is NOT a negative. Let's not delete it just because some people like to use it that way. Rick K 00:18, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)
Kennedy is a liberal; I doubt Kennedy himself would disagree with that designation, and in fact would probably consider it a badge of honor. I agree that it should remain. ffirehorse 04:07, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
He became notorious for running red lights while in law school? Is this true? People around the country were aware of some rich law student who was always running red lights? Acsenray 19:35, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
"After his brothers John and Robert were murdered (in 1963 and 1968, respectively), he took on the role of surrogate father for 13 more children."
I always thought heads of state could get "assassinated," not murdered. Correct me if I'm wrong. - (unsigned)
Yes, the legal charge is indeed "murder," but typically when you refer to the murder of a head of state, a politician, or even of an individual of notable fame, "assassinated" is the more accepted terminology
I am not too familiar with Ted Kennedy, but would suspect that he is neither gay nor a communist. - (unsigned)
I agree that it's not a top-line item; but my bigger problem is, is it alcoholism? Yeah, he's a big drinker, but there's a difference between partying and being dependent (I've tried both, and discovered I'm not alcohol-dependent, I'm just an alcohol- savant). He probably has an alcohol abuse problem, but unless someone can point to an alcohol dependency the word alcoholism is probably inappropriate. His drinking is mentioned in other contexts, but not necessarily as a lifelong character point, so we'll probably revisit this one again. I'm also probably going to go fix-up the alcoholism page, because it doesn't distinguish between abuse and dependency properly, and it's a significant distinction. Blair P. Houghton 22:57, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
if the drowned/suffocated controversy added anything of substance to the story in this context, I'd surely have included it myself. It's a detail for another forum. A bio page just isn't appropriate to become a case-file. I say the cleo o'donnell quote stays, though it'd be really cool if there was a cogent attribution of it; it seems it's coming from someone's book, and there might be info on its provenance somewhere. Blair P. Houghton 05:36, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is website YTedK which has a photo of a man sitting on top of Kennedy's car with his body out of the water from the waist up.That would seem to reconfirm the six feet deep opinion. However the body of water there, although referred to as a "pond," is salt water and therefore would be subject to tidal fluctuations. A person would need to have the tidal charts for that period, know the time the photo was taken(easy), and know when the car entered the water. There is a dispute as to the time frame of the accident and Senator Kennedy was not exactly forthcoming about the whole episode.
I had to add the "six feet of water" to the article again. Besides the Time magazine article from November 1979, I can cite other sources that all agree that it was six feet of water. The FBI report entitled "The Perjury of Edward Kennedy" states that the car was six feet underwater. John Farrer, the scuba diver, guessed that the car was six to seven feet underwater. And from Ted Kennedy in his testimony he states that he waded to the car and that he could stand next to the car. Additionally, he stated that while holding onto the car when trying to save Mary Jo, the water reached up to some point on his body (the exact point is not detailed in the report). Since he is slightly taller than six feet tall, all his descriptions of the depth of water would indicate about six feet of water. Lokifer 00:31, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A car six feet under water would be in more than six feet of water, but I suspect somewhere there's a linguistic problem and it was in six feet of water. I also find it odd that there's an FBI report called "The Perjury of Edward Kennedy." Google doesn't mention it anywhere; is there a link? Blair P. Houghton 00:48, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Sorry. You're correct that it's a linguistic problem, because the water was six feet deep where the car was. As for the FBI report, it can be found here [2]. Lokifer 02:34, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
According to that link, it is not entitled "The Perjury of Edward Kennedy". Is there some other site you are getting all of this stuff off of? If so, scholarly honesty means you should acknowledge your actual sources. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:51, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
The link brings you to a page that has the FBI files. It's split into two parts. If one has enough common sense to read what the site says and click on the links, one would find that the testimony is included in the PDFs. The testimony is part of a bigger file (not a computer file but a report, since I have to baby talk you through the steps) called "The Perjury of Edward Kennedy". This report is split between the two links. Now do I need to find an audio version of it to help you? Lokifer 02:59, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No. I'll stick to calling you "condescendingcondescending" because the word that first came to mind would probably get me banned. You said it was the title < and this PDF loads very slowly. >. Once I looked and found a different title, I didn't go further. I don't usually bother eating a whole egg when the first bite tastes bad. --
Jmabel |
Talk 03:31, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to agree or disagree with you on whether I am "consescending", but unforunately I have no idea what that word means. I'd hate to see the problems that some people would have if I used a source that would involve a trip to the library and the use of the Dewey decimal system. Lokifer 03:46, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
PDF loads slow. Title buried 20 pages into a group of documents. Sounds like excuses to me. Besides, my excuse for not listing the pages is the burden of the number of pages in the document and the slow PDF file. Lokifer 04:47, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Since you got lost finding the files, I shouldn't be surprised that you don't understand sarcasm. Are you denying that the testimony is from Kennedy? Are you denying that he said both things I stated above? Are you in fact denying that Farrer's opinion about the depth of the water? How about the Time magazine article that places it at 6 feet also? Have you produced an impeccable source that cites a deeper depth where the car was located? Lokifer 06:39, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What sticky topic? People keep removing or changing the depth of the water. I have supplied a few sources about the depth of the pond where the car was located--something no one else has done. I then get criticized for supplying a link to Time Magazine because it's part of their archive that is for premium members and the FIOA FBI files because I didn't give the exact links to the two files. I can add more sources, but I'm pretty sure it will be criticized. Let the criticism begin: Edgartown Police Chief Dominick Arena, the man who arrested Ted Kennedy, has in his report that the water was only six feet deep. Lokifer 07:25, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
BTW, my count so far has five sources stating that it was six feet of water. 1) Ted Kennedy states in his testimony that when he tried to save Mary Jo, he could stand next to the car...making it about six feet deep. 2) Ted Kennedy states that he had to hold on to the car because of the current and indicates (the source doesn't show where exactly he indictates) where the water level is at...making it around six feet, with a liberal area of about one foot above or below his height. 3) The scuba diver that removed Mary Jo from the car then the car from the pond states that the water was about six or seven feet deep. 4) Edgartown Police Chief Dominick Arena's police report and a diagram of the accident has it stated that the water was six feet deep. 5) An article in Time Magazine from 1979, ten years after the incident, has it stated that the water level was six feet deep. By my count, that's four sources from 1969, including two from Kennedy himself. Lokifer 07:37, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm not picking on you, Loki. All those criticisms are valid. You did imply it was an FBI report when it was a crackpot rant the FBI kept because it keeps everything (did you also see the letter from Mary Jo Kopechne, return-addressed from her grave? I can't imagine the whole disk drives of flamage the FBI has to have around for Clinton and Bush... I can imagine they have a few dozen of my own letters to the White House...). Part of their job is investigating the crackpots. They probably have a a file on Patterson with a duplicate and a cross-reference. (N.B.: the FBI can claim prior art if anyone tries to patent the Wikipedia; they just did it by hand for a hundred years). At any rate, if you don't agree that I've shown that the water was almost certainly more than six feet deep, that six feet is a minimum that was almost certainly not reached when Kennedy crashed the car or was in the water himself, then maybe we can add a para. about the estimation. Although I'm thinking of creating a whole new article for the incident and just templating the official story into both the Mary Jo and Ted articles, and giving it a couple of sandboxes, one for pro-Ted POV rants, and one for anti-Ted POV rants. I really think their bio pages are no place for a case file. Blair P. Houghton 18:16, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Ah, sorry about my revision earlier, then -- there was no depth listed, and I gave four feet the benefit of the doubt as being accurate since a) I've heard the value before in media and b) previous values were omitted -- though I should've known better...
EggplantWizard 23:26, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I fail to see why anyone would defend Senator Kennedy. saltforkgunman
Ollie, the original was POV, but I recast it long ago as an NPOV quotation and explanation of the statement. Occasionally an anon poster change it to "is used correctly" in there, and POV it up again, but we revert those. It's typical of the gun-nut rhetoric, and the rhetoric against Kennedy. He's actually proud that goons like these target him. I don't mind illustrating their ignorance. Blair P. Houghton 21:59, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There needs to be a balanced ,factual account of this piece of craps efforts to subvert the Constitution and infringe on our freedom to own and use guns.The page needs to be edited to reflect that Kennedy is a gun control fanatic.How can this article be complete ,and balanced when there is no mention of the fact that this person has worked tirelessly to destroy out Constitutionally protected rights? Saltforkgunman 03:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Ollieplatt wants to remove the following section of the article because he/she claims it is redundant and POV.
I disagree: I don't think it is redundant. I've reverted the article but if Ollieplatt reverts the article again, I won't revert it back. Aoi
However, do you think this section of the article should be kept? 15:19, 18 Jan 2005 Aoi
This article has all the structural integrity of Bart's treehouse. The most important and current things should be at the top. As for that paragraph, it has many problems:
Ted Kennedy's article is riddled with liberal POV, I have tried to change it for the better but am outnumbered by partisans. Blair, can I suggest a calmer more polite tone, it will get you further, as I have discovered. Ollieplatt 06:41, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
1. "The dean of the liberal wing" is a figure of speech indicating he leads the bloc. 2. He's stated he's very proud. 3. If you have more info on his involvement with Kerry's campaign, by all means add it to that section. The previous versions had the same facts as the current one, but were cast to pretend that he buried Kerry.
This article was far more POV-infected after you edited it. He's a liberal, so there will be facts indicating such, including--horrors--things he's done that are good. How scandalous.
I've seen several examples of your tone tonight, Ollie, both in your edits and your comments to other people. Your questioning mine is pure sophistry. Blair P. Houghton 06:54, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Someone recently, anonymously, and without citation changed this from Brookline to Boston. I have no idea which is accurate; does someone have a citation? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:02, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)
I would like to make this move for a few reasons:
Vote closed, see below
Vote closed, see below
Vote closed, see below
This is an encyclopedia, not a county recorder's office. Blair P. Houghton 00:27, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. violet/riga (t) 18:25, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
That picture barely looks like Senator Kennedy--on the biographical directory there's a very recent picture I think should be used.