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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 29 August 2019 and 13 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Eed49.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 10:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
The DNA samples that show that 63% of the subjects tested possess Native American ancestry is not reliable proof of Native American ancestry for the Puerto Rican population as a whole. Puerto Rico has a population of 4 million people. Nor does there seem to be a wide variety of geographical locations represented. I would like to know how many other studies of this kind were done, and by what other Universities, organizations or Scholars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LightingBug ( talk • contribs) 04:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
It is not up to Europeans to say who is Native or not or your companies. Modern day Boricuas from Puerto-Rico are the Tainos and they were never extinct but you keep devaluating the oral history of the indigenous people as you want your European presence to be remembered. It is not true. The Tainos are still here. How can they disappear if most Boricuas still carry their blood today? Wikipedia needs to be decolonized as well. This is a Eurocentric basis and it is not up to you white people from the North to decide who is alive, Native or not. Focus on your own ancestors. You did enough damage to us.
You're saying that having a Taino matriline isn't having Taino ancestry as long as the patriline is European? That's both sexist, and racist. And, it isn't correct. Mitochondrial DNA represents matrilineal ancestry, the mother's side. It doesn't go bye-bye just because the father's European. My matriline has married European a few times in a row, but I'm still reported by geneticists as a full quarter Polish from my Polish matriline. I'm still strongly Polans tribe no matter how many European MALES you throw into my MATRIline. Just because most people sexistly follow only the patriline in ancestry doesn't mean only male ancestors give DNA, or heritage. It's a sexist, and inaccurate practice. And, you're exaggerating how far back Europeans have been mixing with the Taino. It isn't thousands of years. Europeans in the Americas is new history. When you're not a geneticist, you are not supposed to be acting like a leading authority on genetics to people on wikipedia. -- 184.101.91.185 ( talk) 08:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
It's outrageous that the people who say WE are extinct are mad and do not possess the proper command of English or spelling. Furthermore, these so called "facts" are taken from books from the conquerors (Spanish and American). I, on the other hand, am a native Cuban, part Taino. If anyone of you naysayers have ever traveled to Cuba (which I doubt) or any of the former nations of the Caribbean where my ancestors inhabited, I think you would change your minds. I have relatives in Cuba that I travel every other year to see.
I have visited with my family and we have gone to where other clans live mainly in (Las montañas de Oriente) they live moch like on reservations like in the US and are referred to as las batas blancas so
when you do research on the subject at least get the so call facts straight in plain words you don't know what the hell you talking about. yes there are no full bloods but you can say that about ALL of the Americas, yes we are mestizos in Cuba,but most of humanity is in it ?? so i will direct you to theses sites http://www.indigenouspeople.net/taino.htm > http://americantaino.blogspot.com/2007/03/tano-people-of-cuba.html > http://www.onaway.org/indig/taino2.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luis2112 ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
To whom it may concern, I would like to offically contest and protest this untrue public statement about the Taino people by someone whom had edited and added this statement on the Wikipedia section on the Modern Taino Tribe, as the statement found below is an absoultly untrue and without any real crediable documented proof. I here demand that it be removed or it shall be contest in a federal court as a public slanderous untrue statement and your company will have to show and provide the legal proof of burden.
"Some Taíno groups are known to 'adopt' other native traditions (mainly North American Plains Indian)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Japerez ( talk • contribs) 01:02, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
The three organizations mentioned above are not Indian Tribes nor has it been proven that they are legitimite authorities on Taíno culture. There are unfortunately today, no legitimite authorities on authentic Taíno culture. Even historians and scholars can only learn so much from historical records. The Government of the Jatibonicu Taino PeopleTaíno Nation of the Antilles (1993), the United Confederation of Taíno People, and the Jatibonicu Taino People are heritage groups composed of people of dubious Taíno ancestry. There may however be remnants of Taíno culture in Puerto Rico that blended with African and Spanish traditions. If anyone knows of authentic Taíno traditions that still exist, I would like to here them.
I would also like to add that the Spaniards, in additino to bringing in African slaves to Puerto Rico and other parts of the Carribean, also brought in Indian labor from the Yucatan peninsula, and from other areas of Latin America such as Venezuala to replace the Taíno labor, whome were almost brought to the brink of extinction because of abuse, and disease. So the DNA test cannot specify Taino ancestry, only Indian ancestry.
Academics say the modern-day Taino are descended from a 19th-century movement island intellectuals launched to stir nationalism against Spain and are maintained by mainland Puerto Ricans to downplay their African heritage. There is most likely however, a minority of people in Puerto Rico and in the Carribean who do have Taíno ancestry from many generations ago but it is something that would be almost impossible to prove or disprove today because the vast majority of Taino traditions and cultural knowledge has been lost to time and the traditions that did survive tended to mix with Spainiard/European and African traditions. LightingBug ( talk) 02:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Its really sad to read that prejudice and racism against the descendants of the Taino people of today is still alive as it was some 500 years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.204.14.226 ( talk) 15:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
slaugter of the tianos by who chrisopher columbus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.139.22.2 ( talk) 16:08, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
All Tainos are extinct, this is a fact, it is not racistic to say the truth. “The Jatibonicù Taino Tribal Band of New Jersey" are in no way descendants from the historic Tainos, simpley because they are not related. Writing false information in wikipedia wont give them tribal nation status with the US government, ok ? Simply because legislators base their decisions on facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.214.74 ( talk) 17:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Tainos as a tribe are extinct. However, Taino descendants exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mabrikananixi ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
The taino are not extinct. They still speak Taino, and have chiefs. And, having Taino ancestry makes Taino NOT extinct. You people arguing that they're extinct are completely illogical. You need to see a psychiatrist. http://www.taino-tribe.org/tedict.html -- 184.101.91.185 ( talk) 08:25, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Tainos are and WERE NEVER exctinct they exist and are the majority of the modern day BORICUAS ! They never left but European historians and scientists want you to think otherwise! Taino influence is in the vocabulary everything, music, words, customs and the people are STILL Boricuas !— Preceding unsigned comment added by JaneMoreau ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 12 April 2021 (UTC) (Note:Comment moved from top to bottom of section. - Donald Albury 12:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC))
I'm quite astonished that so much fact about current Caribbean culture has been proposed by some contributors, specifically Uyvsdi, as "proof" of Taino existence in modern times. It is stunning to see that use of Native American customs now makes one Native American in the Caribbean basin. As far as I know, eating cornbread, grits, chestnuts, hominy and wild leeks (ramps) never made a white hillbilly Cherokee, but I guess that is now not the case. Taino cultural customs and vocabulary are VERY widespread throughout the Caribbean, as are Southeastern tribal culture (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, you name it) spead throughout the South, and other tribal customs, names, and Indian food use spread throughout the whole of the USA. Being a fraction Indian does not make you Indian. Being a fraction Taino does not and will not make me Indian. Of course, I am sure, as most Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, and dark Cubans are, that my very curled hair is in fact Taino, as is my skin color. I seem to remember many pcitures of Native Americans with afros and such. Let's stop the game and shoot for accuracy in an encyclopedia.-- 76.237.201.11 ( talk) 01:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Why dont you post your “The Jatibonicù Taino Tribal Band of New Jersey” mebership card instead, because your "quotes and references from scholarly journals" are just bogus, fake informations, only written to change public opinion, and give you and give the “The Jatibonicù Taino Tribal Band of New Jersey” tribal nation status. Everybody can write something like that, but it will not be based on facts, please refrain from posting lies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.214.74 ( talk) 17:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Being more than 70% Taino does make you native american, According to federal law determination is made by individual tribes with the most common being 1/8 or more. I don't use US Native American customs because I know nothing of it. All I have is oral tradition passed down by my grandparents. it's funny how people identify me a Puertorican, as hispanic, We are mostly Native 60%+/-, Black 20%+/-, French and Spanish 20%+/- in that order. I can only speak for myself I still have artifacts given to me by my great-great grandmother that I have seen in encyclopedias myself. It can be argued that being 20%+/- European does not make you european does it? Just because you lost your identity through assimilation does not negate your heritage. We may be different from our ancestors but we are still Boricuas. Also the claim by the OP of importation of other natives to the islands is silly since Tainos were very racist and would not mix with other tribes. The only reason they mixed with europeans was because of rape. Htij143 ( talk) 14:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)htij143
I have posted some sources about continued Taino cultural practices in the Eastern parts of Cuba and a Smithsonian article about a cultural exhibition that recognizes the surviving legacy of the Taino in the Caribbean and the diaspora abroad. I believe this should be enough evidence for cultural continuity and authentic cultural revitalization of the Taino culture and peoples. Mtgarcia369 ( talk) 13:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
I took History some time ago, but as far as I recall, the Taino are a cultural stage and belong to the same group of people as the Pre-Tainos and Igneri did. They are all Central American Indians closely related or belonging to, the Arawaks. Also, they were not Christians so the translation given here of Boriken as something "blah blah Land of the Lord blah" is completely inaccurate and as a Puertorrican it is the FIRST time I have ever heard them term translated. I also eliminated the sentence mentioning that they called themeselves "Boricuas". I believe the term Boricua is a modern term, perhaps even originating in New York as a corruption of Borinqueño", as I can't recall any mention of the word in popular art or culture in the mainland of Puerto Rico, and it is (to this date) commonly used in more colloquial terms, while Borinqueño or Borincano are used a bit more formally...
In any event, I doubt that the Tainos would call themselves anything. The concept of property and individuality was brought on by Europeans. I have serious doubts about the idea that they would answer "Oh yes we are Boricua.". The concept of "tribes", "culture" and "group of people" where probably very alien to them. It is more likely that the Spaniards came up with the word and coined the term based on the fact that the natives called the place Boriquen.
I invite anyone with the knowledge to come in and add to the article, but please use proper citations. -- Reefpicker ( talk) 18:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
For those who claim that there are no Taino left, how do you explain the Yateras Indians of eastern Cuba? You can read all about them in the anthology "Indigenous Resurgence in the Contemporary Caribbean" by Maximillian Forte, in the chapter “Panchito, Mountain Cacique: Cuban Taino Survivals" by Jose Barreiro. There are historical records of the Yateras Indians fighting for the Spanish in the colonial revolts of the 19th Century. They consider themselves Taino descendants and have been regarded as Indians by their neighbors.
Also, why do skeptics hold Taino claims to such unreasonably high standards? It seems as if you want modern Tainos to be exactly the same as their Pre-Columbian ancestors, whereas many officially-recognized Native Americans in the United States have mixed ancestry, no longer speak their indigenous languages, and live Westernized lifestyles. A great example of this is the Mashantucket Pequot. -- 96.245.119.190 ( talk) 01:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
[redacted] The Taino have dies out, this is tragic, but it is nearly comical how certaing political persons and "tribes" try to change history just to get what they want. Maybe we should start an "Tribe of Atlantis" or something like that.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.214.74 ( talk) 17:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I do not believe it is misappropriate for a fraternity to use Taino imagery. As they embrace several aspects of Taino culture and celebrate the culture in various ways. As the section is titled “Taíno heritage in modern times” it is important to note and describe organization that celebrate or feel some type of connection to that culture. Specifically, when an organization embraces a Taino native as it’s symbol of cultural pride. The addition does not make any outlandish claims but instead just notes that this organization has embraced the Taino people as there symbol. Monarca7 ( talk) 07:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
The recent move of this article was not discussed at all, despite the article being actively edited by a large number of editors. A (correctly performed) move to Taíno people is fine with me personally, but the disambiguation info needs to go to Taíno (disambiguation) and Taíno should redirect to Taíno people, since it is hands down the primary article for "Taíno." - Uyvsdi ( talk) 16:47, 6 June 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi
I just reverted the unexplained deletion of the sentence, "Despite this massive decline in population, it is safe to say that there simply wasn't enough of a Spanish military presence to be attributed to the large reduction of native manpower," from the section on Population decline. That sentence appears to have two citations just for itself. I do not have ready access to the sources, so I cannot verify that the cited sources support the statement. However, the statement seems to me to be awkwardly worded and not encyclopedic in tone. Any suggestions? -- Donald Albury 23:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be told that the two Dominican girls are actually mulattoes, and not Indians? Ok, it's told that it's carnival, but it's still misleading. -- Lecen ( talk) 00:37, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
"Cuba, the smallest island of the Antilles ...." This can't be correct. Probably "largest" is meant but I don't know. OldAndTired ( talk) 21:37, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Please give complete refernce to "Chrisp 2006, p. 34." -- Finn Bjørklid ( talk) 22:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
There's an IP changing this article who has obviously read What Became of the Taíno?, watched a tv program on it, or something similar. Unfortunately they aren't using sources and are leaving the article a bit of a mess. I don't know if anyone feels up to fixing this, but I don't have time at the moment or really the background. Doug Weller ( talk) 11:21, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
An editor has replaced the word "raped" with the euphemism "interbred", giving the following changing explanations:
I reviewed the cited sources (3 in the lead after the occurrence of the word "rape", a couple more in the 'Women' section of the article), and while I didn't find a single instance of the word "interbred", I did find many instances of "rape" / "outraged" / "Raped" / "trampled on the chastity". Now, I'm sure the "reality of the situation" changed over time, as sources attest. According to records, the first 39 Spanish raped. They were soon killed. Later expeditions arrived, more women were raped, and many were "taken" - and the sources do not mean in the "Do you take this woman to be your wife" manner - forcibly taken. Some Taino women did indeed enter into marriage with the Spanish, and some with Africans, but we must keep in mind that within the first decade after arrival, the Taino society of millions dwindled down to scattered tribes of mere hundreds. We can certainly describe the details of the "interbreeding" that occurred between the Spanish & Taino & Africans, but we can't sanitize out rape, abductions, and exploitations when they feature so prominently in the reliable sources. And perhaps of further concern is that such sanitization of history to legitimize such brutality has been happening over time, as noted repeatedly in our Accilien source, perhaps exemplified by the Guitar paper submission.
If one aspect of the inter-relationships between groups of people should be expanded, we don't start by removing another reliably sourced aspect. I'd be happy to work with the IP editor on this content. Xenophrenic ( talk) 21:31, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
The lede has the following, "In the Greater Antilles, the northern Lesser Antilles, and The Bahamas, they were known as the Lucayans." There is a citation to 'Alegría, Ricardo E. "Taínos" in Christopher Columbus Encyclopedia vol. 1, p. 345. New York: Simon and Schuster 1992.' I don't have access to Alegria, but, even if the Alegria source extends the term "Lucayan" to all of the Antilles, the preponderance of sources restrict the term to the Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos Islands. - Donald Albury 15:21, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
How will the Mythology section differ from the existing Spirituality section? If the Mythology section is not started within a day or two I will delete it. We should not leave empty sections in articles. If the Mythology section duplicates or largely overlaps the Spiritualogy section, they will be merged. - Donald Albury 16:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Any one know how the Taino people got from south American to any Island's in the Caribbean.
I think this section has a tone that is quite un-encyclopedic. I am also uncomfortable with the point of view. I did not remove the section because I can see the possiblity of some useful being made of it, but I think it needs work. I will work on improving it, but do want to hear other opinions. - Donald Albury 20:08, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
See this diff for the copyrighted content that was added on Oct. 21, 2013.-- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 07:38, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
I read "Taino: A Novel" by Jose Barriero which is likely the same as "Taino: The Indian Chronicles." I highlighted many passages in the book that is significant to history. However, what makes it real and genuine versus what makes it a fictictious pseudo novel? Jose Barriero himself calls it the true story and he also explains how he found this information from a local village friar in Cuba as you read into the book and listen to some of his interviews. The reason why this is important is because introducing the source Taino: A Novel on wikipedia may get the book denied as good source material based on the life on Dieguillo "Guaiken" Colon. Not to mention I had a dispute with a wikipedia editor/user who means well and has contributed to the Taino page of this website. In my opinion, I believe its very real in terms of what Dieguillo thinks and witnessed during 15th and 16th century. Another problem is that the book by Jose Barriero may have re-imagined the accounts of Dieguillo, even though this is the journal of Dieguillo written in 1st person narrative. What is your opinion?
Just think Jim Carry recently mixed fiction with Non-Fiction in his semi-autobiographical "Memoirs and Misinformation" and another example is the The Bible. These are examples of what we believe to be real and fake and its all about how we judge, trust, and use our intuition on the material. To better confirm how real "Taino: A Novel" is, I believe we must find sources of Christopher Columbus and Bartolome de Las Casas; introduced as logs, abstracts and expecially journals. This won't guarantee that these historical figures have written about Guaiken a.k.a Dieguillo Colon in particular, but if there is any evidence from their writings of the Taino Indian then it helps to verify the authenticity of source materials written by Jose Barriero.
Please feel Free to check out the draft on my user page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Californianscholar ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Jos%C3%A9_Barreiro
( Californianscholar ( talk) 20:24, 8 August 2020 (UTC))
True the novel is a historical fiction. However the paperback version of the book also says its based on a true story. So this is loosely based on the Taino indian. I just saw what other source material are possibly good accurate non-fiction accounts that mentions Dieguillo, as mentioned by Jose Barriero. I will verify as I do more avid reading. These include "View from the Shore: Toward an Indian Voice in 1992" by Jose Barriero, "History of the Indies" by Bartolome de Las Casas, "Historia general y natural de las Indias" by Gonzalez Fernandez de Oviedo, "The life of the Admiral Chrisopher Columbus by his Son Ferdinand," "Letter of the Second Voyage" by Michele de Cuneo, "Decadas del Nuevo Mundo" by Pedro Martir de Angleria, "European Discovery of America by Samuel Morrison, etc. ( Californianscholar ( talk) 22:22, 8 August 2020 (UTC))
Hi, this claim in the article 'A smallpox epidemic in Hispaniola in 1518–1519 killed almost 90% of the surviving Taíno' is not true. It cites an old article from 1972 and a book on the global sugar industry. Historians who deal specifically with the topic like Massimo Livi Bacci stress that the changes associated with the European arrival, including forced labor etc, caused the massive depopulation and epidemics were merely an auxiliary factor, especially since the first major epidemic did not occur for 20 years after arrival yet the population was already dropping massively beforehand. Papers that are more specific about the topic in question are much better sources for a specific claim like this one. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/38903 181.118.13.77 ( talk) 16:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
The Taíno were an Arawak people who were the indigenous people of the Caribbean and Florida.At the time of European contact in the late 15th century,they were the principal inhabitants of most of Cuba,Jamaica,Hispaniola(the Dominican Republic and Haiti),and Puerto Rico. -- 72.27.118.182 ( talk) 13:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
I have marked a citation to RacandHistory.com as possibly self-published. At the top of the site's home page it states, "A community of volunteers committed to social development." While articles have authors listed, I see no signs of any kind of editorial process. This looks like a group blog, which would make it a non- reliable source per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources. Convince me otherwise, or I will remove the citation. - Donald Albury 19:20, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
I think this page should be requested for semi protection. Too many neo-Tainos vandalising it. Ddum5347 ( talk) 17:24, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Can I ask why this page was protected? Why were the corrections reverted repeatedly, and now locked? Jnjn0616 ( talk) 22:28, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
I, too, would like know why the page is being “protected.” Also, what’s the issue with Taíno descendants changing the page? It isn’t vandalism and it’s a correction that needs to be made since it’s clear to see many of you aren’t well versed in Taíno history and people. Realblasiann ( talk) 05:39, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
I’d like to know why some of you non-Taíno people felt it was right to lock the page after people were correcting false information. The Taíno ARE and not were a people. They never went extinct. There are most literally full blooded Taíno in the mountains of the Greater Antilles and across the entirety of the Caribbean. Even if there weren’t, there are descendants of full blooded Taínos who have significant percentages of Taíno ancestry. Realblasiann ( talk) 23:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Ancient DNA Reconstructs the Genetic Legacies of Precontact Puerto Rico Communities Maria A Nieves-Colón, William J Pestle, Austin W Reynolds, Bastien Llamas, Constanza de la Fuente, Kathleen Fowler, Katherine M Skerry, Edwin Crespo-Torres, Carlos D Bustamante, Anne C Stone Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 37, Issue 3, March 2020, Pages 611–626, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msz267 Published: 09 November 2019 https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/37/3/611/5618728 Jnjn0616 ( talk) 05:23, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
The article DOES cite multiple sources that trace MtDNA of Caribbean people to indigenous people originating from regions where many Taíno ancestors inhabited. This is something ALREADY cited and stated in the Taíno wiki. You’re right - Taíno identification is more than DNA. Having Taíno language, customs & spirituality passed on from generation to their descendants is more than enough to simply change “were” to “are”. I don’t expect you to understand the intricacies of identity & culture, as I can imagine you are not from the very land & people we are talking about. Taíno identity IS shaped by colonization, endogamy, and the many events impacting the region. To say that descendants of Taíno don’t exist borders on erasure. We exist as a blend of ethnicities & cultures, whether that’s my Andalucian, Senegalian or Taíno ancestors. The tone & thesis of your response reeks of a neo-school of the antiquated one-drop rule. Jnjn0616 ( talk) 23:21, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Here is a nat-geo article that summarises not only that living people in the Caribbean have genetic ties to their Taíno ancestors but also that they still identify as Taíno. It also talks about how the government committed a "paper genocide" against them, hence why it's important us as Wikipedians not replicate that. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/meet-survivors-taino-tribe-paper-genocide I apologise to the Taíno people who have had their edits reverted and experiences invalidated, please do not let that discourage you from improving this article and others about your people and culture. -- Contrawwftw ( talk) 20:14, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
and seems to conflict with some of the claims made by the Higuayagua group. I can't access the paper, so I haven't read it. Carlstak ( talk) 00:23, 20 December 2021 (UTC)The Caribbean was one of the last regions of the Americas to be settled by humans, but where they came from and how and when they reached the islands remain unclear. We generated genome-wide data for 93 ancient Caribbean islanders dating between 3200 and 400 calibrated years before the present and found evidence of at least three separate dispersals into the region, including two early dispersals into the Western Caribbean, one of which seems connected to radiation events in North America. This was followed by a later expansion from South America. We also detected genetic differences between the early settlers and the newcomers from South America, with almost no evidence of admixture. Our results add to our understanding of the initial peopling of the Caribbean and the movements of Archaic Age peoples in the Americas.
I have posted some sources about continued Taino cultural practices in the Eastern parts of Cuba and a Smithsonian article about a cultural exhibition that recognizes the surviving legacy of the Taino in the Caribbean and the diaspora abroad. I believe this should be enough evidence for cultural continuity and authentic cultural revitalization of the Taino culture and peoples. Mtgarcia369 ( talk) 16:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC) Mtgarcia369
Another type of acceptable source would be mainstream academics documenting a recent related cultural reappropriation or movement with a relevant narrative (in which case the article could mention it and would need to describe it as such). Unless WP:RS have a special treatment of colonial narratives, that is also unlikely to be very useful, since for WP it's not Spanish vs Taino that counts, just mainstream scholarship... — Paleo Neonate – 05:15, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
The use of the past tense to describe the Taino people who are not extinct and still inhabit their land. The fact the page has been locked is embarrassing especially after the concerns voiced by many Taino people. 2001:B07:6461:5B94:E8A9:ECF2:C02E:9BB4 ( talk) 08:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Why is it when actual Taíno people and other Indigenous people give clear and exact evidence it's labeled as "not enough". How can you say you know more than *actual* Native Americans, scholars, museums, and organizations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.215.221.89 ( talk) 19:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I've read what I need as true information, and all my evidence fits this. Articles from Museums, Scholars, Organizations, etc. Even record of Taíno students being given scholarships only for Native Americans. What more could you need?
Can I please get an answer back on my claims? Because it seems you all only have things to say when you can easily dismiss our evidence, but when we have actual evidence like Native scholarships from Harvard being given to Taíno students, y'all are silent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:906:20C7:5919:3F25:8991:F10D ( talk) 01:50, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
A Taíno tribe has just been officially recognized in The Virgin Islands, proving we still exist. Some big edits need to be made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:906:20C7:8DEF:1F14:3C13:7238 ( talk) 06:01, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
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In the sentence "The Taíno were an indigenous people of the Caribbean.", change the word "were" to "are". Mtgarcia369 ( talk) 18:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
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template. I see the sources, which should help, but this needs to be discussed. There is active discussion in the section above. Please reach consensus on this.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 12:16, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
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It states ‘Taíno were’ when it should in fact state ‘Taíno are’, as they are not extinct. 72.140.40.245 ( talk) 20:21, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
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There are several million Taíno alive today in the east coast of the United States. Beings that are alive are not extinct or past tense; please change the first line from were to are thank you. 69.127.242.53 ( talk) 15:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
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Change were to are. A Taíno tribe in the US Virgin Islands has been officially recognized.
https://stthomassource.com/content/2022/04/06/usvi-taino-chief-seeks-members/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:906:20C7:8DEF:1F14:3C13:7238 ( talk) 14:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
2603:7080:906:20C7:8DEF:1F14:3C13:7238 ( talk) 07:26, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Why has this not been done despite several sources being posted? The article itself refers to a revival; not changing were to are is contradicting the article. Bovianchovy ( talk) 02:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Native Amerindians and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 8#Native Amerindians until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. — Ⓜ️hawk10 ( talk) 15:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
This still seems a bit unbalanced.
Starting with these 3, orphaned in a comment from a few sections up:
– SJ + 21:17, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
The page for Taino people has seen a significant amount of conflict that has been unresolved, and doesn't appear to have had any formal discussions, for over a decade. This is primarily around if Wikipedia should recognise the several groups who claim to be Taino in modern times. The conventional wisdom seems to be that the Taino have not existed as a people for hundreds of years; while the opposing view is that the Taino have either continued quietly or have reinvigorated a sleeping culture. Both have research and sources to back them up.
Even if it is readily demonstratable that the Taino are not a continuous culture and are instead represented by a sort of 'Neo-Taino' - this also warrants addressing in the article. As it stands, there are many people who claim to be Taino who attempt to edit Wikipedia or express themselves on the Talk page and are shut down. This isn't a very good look; and the controversy has led to an article that is confusing to a huge fault. For example: in the lead it says that the Taino 'were' a people, while in the article body it talks about many Taino communities; including one that received Federal Recognition in 2021 in the US Virgin Islands.
While the case of the expressed extinguishment of the Taino people would have been many generations before, from an Australian lens this doesn't seem enough to disqualify their legitimacy. Neither does, as one user said on this talk page, a requirement that they constantly speak Taino language, wear Taino clothes, or cook Taino food. This is not something that most people on reservations in the US do either.
I also am unsure of the claim that because they are not a registered tribe by the US Federal Government, they are not a tribe. This sets off a lot of red flags as I'm sure anyone with a cursory knowledge of colonialism would understand.
Following input from users here, I think an RfC on this issue may be necessary to resolve this long-standing conflict.
Disclaimer: My understanding of North American indigenous peoples is limited. I've done some research into the Taino to try to get my head around it but have not formed an opinion on the issue. I am focused on Australia, where there are not the concepts of 'blood-quantum', formal tribal rolls, or recognition of 'sovereign' tribes. So the situation is significantly different, and the general understanding in Australia is that an Australian Aboriginal person is any person with Aboriginal heritage no matter how distant. There's also not a significant number of people here who claim Aboriginal ancestry without it being truthful. All these issues appear to be near-opposite in the USA. Specifically in regards to the Taino, in Australia, significant movements to reinvigorate near-extinguished cultures have been hugely successful and have been seen as legitimate because they are run by people of descent from those groups, and with the understanding that their culture was extinguished by force during colonisation.
PS I have also posted this comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America. Poketama ( talk) 04:34, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
We still speak almost nothing but Taino. I learned to understand English, but I think it's too difficult to speak. I've been said to speak English poorly, when I tried to recently. -- 184.101.190.233 ( talk) 06:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Do the Taino exist today, whether as an ongoing culture, people, or ethnic group? How should Wikipedia address the subject of modern communities who claim to be Taino? Poketama ( talk) 11:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
Still, some scholars remain skeptical. “You have to be aware of people running around saying they’re Taíno, because they are after a federal subsidy,” said Bernardo Vega, a former director of the Museum of the Dominican Man and the Dominican Republic’s former ambassador to the United States. Yvonne M. Narganes Storde, an archaeologist at the University of Puerto Rico agreed. She gives the activists credit for preserving important sites on the island, but she sounded wary of their emphasis on establishing a separate Taíno identity. “All the cultures are blended here,” she said. “I probably have Taíno genes. We all do. We have incorporated all these cultures—African, Spanish and Indian. We have to live with it.”
A few pockets of Taíno culture remain in eastern Cuba, an area shaped by rugged mountains and years of isolation. “Anybody who talks about the extinction of the Taíno has not really looked at the record,” said Alejandro Hartmann Matos, the city historian of Baracoa, Cuba’s oldest city, and an authority on the island’s earliest inhabitants.
I'm not certain what their status is. GoodDay ( talk) 13:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment:Poketama, Wanted to make this comment while the discussion in still in its embryonic stages. Most Wikipedians have little time to contribute to the encyclopedia and even less to (deserving) discussions like this one. To be most effective, I would suggest you add a one-liner next to each of the sources you listed above stating what, IYO, is the most important factual takeaway of each source. That way, editors interested in digging in further based on the one liner can do so. Also, like at least one editor above stated, I am not certain what the current status of Taino culture is, both within WP (among editors) or in the literature at large. Assuming you are relatively acquainted with its current status, if I had been you, I would had also added a short 2-4 sentence introductory paragraph to give passersby a quick update in that respect. Regards,
Mercy11 (
talk) 23:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I think they survived per: https://global.si.edu/projects/caribbean-indigenous-legacies-project# says "the Caribbean Indigenous Legacies Project is revealing how Taíno culture survived..." [1]
In P.R. what we understand is that we are a mix of three: European, Native, African and that is what the DNA results show. See the statues in Manati, Puerto Rico show one of each and then a 4th = Boricua . -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 00:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
@ Poketama:, @ Donald Albury:, @ Carlstak:, and all those other editors who have been most active in this Talk page, What exactly are you traying to accomplish with this discussion? Gaining consensus? Consensus for what?
We need to know --precisely-- what the one and main, and (hopefully) only goal of this Discussion is, or else it will shoot out in all directions aimlessly. And, again, most Wikipedians don't have time for such aimless pursuits. Respectfully, Mercy11 ( talk) 00:12, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I think, looking at the history of edits, one of the main issues is whether to use "are" or "were". This article should say that the Taino "are" the people who were met by the conquerors, some went into hiding, but up to 90% may have been wiped out and current research has found their culture did not die out. DNA research shows it as well. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 01:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
References
Comment On pg 161, "The Tainos : rise & decline of the people who greeted Columbus" by Rouse, Irving, (1913-2006) states:
"Even though the Tainos themselves are extinct, persons claiming Taino ancestry have survived in all three of the Spanish-speaking countries: DR, PR, and Cuba..."
then Rouse added: "... a large proportion of the modern population of the DR, PR, and Cuba is able to claim partial descent from the Tainos."
This article's lead is using pg 161 of Rouse's book to say Tainos "were". IP and other editors change it to "are" and these edits have gone back and forth for a long time.
.. but Rouse continues (and this article should continue with the rest of the statement Rouse made on pg 161), which (again) states that "... a large proportion of the modern population of the DR, PR, and Cuba is able to claim partial descent from the Tainos."
The book is available for borrowing from the Internet Archives. So I think saying "partial descent from the Tainos" is best. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 12:10, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment Perhaps lead should say "Taino refers to the people who were met by the explorers looking for gold, and the people who (in modern times) can claim to be partially descended from them." BTW, on birth certificates in Hawaii, the percentage of Hawaiian ancestry is included, even if it is tiny / minute. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 12:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
One critical source that needs to be addressed is the US Virgin Islands official recognition of the Taino as a tribe. I havn't seen any discussion of it except to suggest the source is unreliable, but the documents look authentic. I can contact the department I suppose to verify authenticity.
If it is authentic, I think its hard for us to justify not listing Taino as existing. https://stthomassource.com/content/2022/04/06/usvi-taino-chief-seeks-members/#:~:text=The%20official%20recognition%20was%20the,U.S.%20Virgin%20Islands%20in%202021. Poketama ( talk) 22:21, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment Much of this controversy seems to stem from varying interpretations of the word people, as in "The Taíno are/were an indigenous people of the Caribbean." I take it to refer broadly to the society/culture that existed at the time of their Columbian encounter. I've read Rouse's book and it's clear to me that he intended the same meaning. Others appear to take a more literal definition of the people: the group of human beings who were living in the Caribbean at the time. In this case, Rouse's unfortunate misuse of the word extinction raises all sorts of objections because, not surprisingly, there are people alive today that are related to those who were part of the Taino culture. Rouse and most academics would agree that the Taino society/culture was destroyed but descendants of that population survived and are alive today. My suggestions would be to clarify the opening sentence to mean Taino society and/or culture. I would also back off on the use of the words extinct and extinction. No one claims there was a biological extinction and it's used multiple times in the article as a strawman. (They said the Taino were extinct but DNA evidence...). Glendoremus ( talk) 14:54, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment This seems a lot like mestizo identity in Mexico. Give up your language, and you're mestizo, even if you're 100% indigenous by ancestry. In the US, you'd still consider yourself Indian, but not in Mexico. There's also some degree of indigenous revival in Mexico (and among Chicanos in the US), though with the complication that you likely don't know what your ancestry is exactly. In Cuba, you can be pretty sure it's Taino, as the non-Taino peoples were marginal even at the time of the Conquest.
A culture, like a language or a religion, can go extinct without any decline or shift in population. In Cuba, the Taino are no longer a distinct people. Whether you call the Taino 'extinct' is a matter of semantics. The Germanic tribes are extinct, though Germans obviously aren't. The Etruscans are extinct, though their descendants live on. We speak of several 'extinct' Finnic peoples of Russia, though to a large extent they are the Russians. The Ainu are extinct in mainland Japan, though I remember one Japanese scholar who argued that the samurai were Ainu by descent.
For a long time there was a question over whether the Britons went extinct, at least in the east of England, and were replaced by the invading Germanic tribes, but now it seems that they were linguistically assimilated, and that the English are mostly Celtic by ancestry. Yet we wouldn't say that a Yorkshireman was 'Welsh', even if we could prove that he was 100% Welsh by ancestry. A people is defined by culture and ethnic identity, and so can go 'extinct' if they give up that identity and are absorbed into something else.
But there is often the implication that 'extinct' means they died off. And they did, in the sense that those who maintained their identity died off, as their descendants assimilated. But it was big news in Puerto Rico when it was discovered that Puerto Ricans were 60% indigenous by ancestry. As with the English, it was generally assumed that since the Taino/Welsh were gone, the present people must descend from the invaders. That's an implication we should guard against even when there's no cultural revival to challenge it. — kwami ( talk) 05:43, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment Re: the subject, as an Afro-indigenous person, a problem that I continue to see especially in the mainland US, is a very regressive and settler colonialist view that Natives have to be virtual facsimiles of their ancestors in order to exist in a contemporaneous context culturally. This renders us ahistorical, because it means we can really only exist as an unchanging reified past, never as one that is too modern, because the culture is suddenly too different to be "Native". Cultures change for a variety of reasons, some voluntarily, others involuntarily like those descending from colonized regions. Things are lost and/or outright abandoned, other elements survive in full or in part, and new things are created, sometimes involuntarily (i.e. rape). All living societies experience this more or less, which makes questions about whether Taínos exist as a people strange, but not unexpected coming from non-Natives. You also can't attack and disenfranchise cultures that do not exist; folk and spiritual traditions of those who identified as indigenous and those whom were African were specifically targeted as backwards and antithetical to Puerto Rican culture in state-sanctioned propaganda...during the 40's. Not centuries ago, decades ago, as highlighted in this essay from the Centro Journal of Puerto Rican studies. The fact these elements mixed into another but remained identifiable doesn't suggest extinction but adaptation. They survive as part of a larger whole.
Some of the arguments here for "intact" cultures and using modern interpretations as a disqualifier actually discredit the existence of generally accepted Native groups who've had to "modernize" otherwise dying languages to prevent their extinction. White Sage, most-commonly associated with smudging, was also used in cuisine once and that practice is being reintroduced in a contemporaneous context. There are the Nahua. There is even, with respect to this debate, a well-established community of thousands in Cuba descending from and maintaining the remaining Taíno traditions and culture that managed to survive genocide, especially in La Rancheria. They were even featured by the Smithsonian. That alone easily satisfies an argument for the survival of the natives commonly-called Taínos in academic discourse. Do they need to be the same and "pure" culturally? No, because no society remains entirely unchanged throughout hundreds of years and numerous surviving Native groups posted on this site have descendants who've experienced similar acculturation.
Are modern people known as Taínos the same as their ancestors culturally? No; the culture in most instances is largely different for obvious reasons, and there's no harm in distinguishing this in the same way one distinguishes the Maya civilization of the past from the Maya people who are their descendants of the present identified as such. We know they have genetic descendants(not the earlier island study I see frequently cited) who are now predominantly mixed, we know there are communities studied that maintain some of it, and that there are native descendants who have chosen to more explicitly ID as Taíno culturally in a contemporaneous context. Personal arguments about the legitimacy or lack thereof of descendants maintaining an authentically "Taíno" culture should be presented in a relevant section in the article. I mean, even the Spanish article doesn't have a problem speaking of Taínos in the way people have asked objectively and noting the distinction. So what is truly stopping this one? Mwatuangi ( talk) 17:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment: For the lead, these points should be included (of course, worded better).
References
I've made a couple edits to reflect the current state of the article and include the seperate section as the RFC concluded. After your revert, what would you propose as alternative to what I have done @ Donald Albury? Do you have any specific criticism? I would rather improve the article through cumulative edits as there is a lot of work to do. Poketama ( talk) 15:32, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
I've made some edits in the intro section to reflect the three arguments about Taino extinction vs. prevalence. See my edits here. Have I captured the three arguments correctly? Thanks! CareAhLine ( talk) 01:30, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
The Tainos enjoy themselves by playing a ball game.They played a game called batos.Batos was played in an open field.It was played by two teams which tried to hit a rubber ball using their hips, knees, heads,elbows and shoulder.
The ball was made from the sap of a tree. The aim of the ball game was to hit the ball over the goal line of the opposite team. 63.143.116.216 ( talk) 00:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
> When a male heir did not exist, the inheritance or succession would go to the oldest male child of the sister of the deceased.
Did you mean, "when a female heir did not exist..."? 68.108.243.87 ( talk) 17:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Why use the verb “were” to refer to a people when the article later goes on to say are continuing and reviving their culture? If the culture continues, as the first sentence states, then shouldn’t the people be referred to in the present tense? Bovianchovy ( talk) 02:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Just caught up on the Great Debate of 2022… where does this stand?? Bovianchovy ( talk) 02:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
I looked into this claim which was tagged as needing a citation:
"Diego Álvarez Chanca, a physician who traveled with Christopher Columbus, reported in a letter that Spaniards took as many women as they possibly could and kept them as concubines."
I believe it's referencing a letter from Chanca in which he says that Caribes, not Spaniards, kidnapped other indigenous women (probably including, but not specifically, Taíno women):
"The habits of these Caribbees (sic.) are brutal .... In their attacks upon the neighboring islands, these people capture as many of the women as they can, especially those who are young and beautiful, and keep them as servants or to have as concubines." https://content.wisconsinhistory.org/digital/collection/aj/id/4381
This reference could be added to the earlier paragraph about Carib raids, but given that Chanca's letter doesn't refer to Taíno women specifically, I am opting to remove it entirely. 74.71.162.63 ( talk) 14:49, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
So, I remembered someone referencing a local news article about the US Virgin Islands government recognizing the Guainia Taíno Tribe in a proclamation, which was shown in it. Someone asked to verify it. I have found a proclamation for Indigenous People’s Day on the official government site that recognizes the contributions of the tribe mentioned in the VI article and its leader explicitly, noting “The tribal membership of the Guainia Taino tribe of the Virgin Islands, as attested by their signatures and in accordance with the United Nations Declaration on the rights of Indigenous Peoples, formally conferred on Maekiaphan Phillips the rank and honor of Kasike (Chief)and Chairwoman of the Guainia Taino of the Virgin Islands' Tribal Council,”. So it appears the recognition mentioned in the first article is legit. Mwatuangi ( talk) 14:32, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
Why does the article use a colonial Spanish corruption of the original Arawak word (cacique came from Arawak kassiquan), It means "keeper of a house" or "housekeeper." In Spanish it means "chief" and is used in that manner throughout Latin America (when it's used at all).
The Spanish misunderstood the Arawak concept and then corrupted the language and made it a synonym for "jefe" (so that they could believe they were talking to someone with authority to give up land).
Why not just use the indigenous word, since it's known? If needed, the Spanish equivalent could be in parenthesis - and link to the article that actually explains the etymology of cacique. El Cubedo ( talk) 17:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
It is highly unlikely that Columbus called the Taino "Indians" (as in thinking they are in India" as that doesn't even fit Spanish or Italian word structure. It's far more likely he referred to them as "Indios", as in a shortened form of "indigena", meaning " the indigenous people of that area. Columbus and his men were very skilled sailors with modern maps at the time. The idea that they went in the entirely wrong direction at every turn and still think they wound up in India is laughable. Disinfectantrum ( talk) 19:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
This article and talk page looks really quite poor. A clear standard should be discussed as to what even meets the conditions of "continued existence", and if the Taino are not of continued existence then a page or large section of the article should be dedicated to Neo Taino. This is clearly a hot political topic but as such it deserves more attention. 84.71.252.187 ( talk) 13:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
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I feel like the term mixed race is just incorrect. There is no biological basis for race, the correct term to the best of my knowledge should be mixed heritage, multicultural, or multinational ancestory.
Therefore I think that we should change mixed-race to the more accurate multicultural ancestory, or similar. 82.38.199.49 ( talk) 21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
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The DNA samples that show that 63% of the subjects tested possess Native American ancestry is not reliable proof of Native American ancestry for the Puerto Rican population as a whole. Puerto Rico has a population of 4 million people. Nor does there seem to be a wide variety of geographical locations represented. I would like to know how many other studies of this kind were done, and by what other Universities, organizations or Scholars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LightingBug ( talk • contribs) 04:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
It is not up to Europeans to say who is Native or not or your companies. Modern day Boricuas from Puerto-Rico are the Tainos and they were never extinct but you keep devaluating the oral history of the indigenous people as you want your European presence to be remembered. It is not true. The Tainos are still here. How can they disappear if most Boricuas still carry their blood today? Wikipedia needs to be decolonized as well. This is a Eurocentric basis and it is not up to you white people from the North to decide who is alive, Native or not. Focus on your own ancestors. You did enough damage to us.
You're saying that having a Taino matriline isn't having Taino ancestry as long as the patriline is European? That's both sexist, and racist. And, it isn't correct. Mitochondrial DNA represents matrilineal ancestry, the mother's side. It doesn't go bye-bye just because the father's European. My matriline has married European a few times in a row, but I'm still reported by geneticists as a full quarter Polish from my Polish matriline. I'm still strongly Polans tribe no matter how many European MALES you throw into my MATRIline. Just because most people sexistly follow only the patriline in ancestry doesn't mean only male ancestors give DNA, or heritage. It's a sexist, and inaccurate practice. And, you're exaggerating how far back Europeans have been mixing with the Taino. It isn't thousands of years. Europeans in the Americas is new history. When you're not a geneticist, you are not supposed to be acting like a leading authority on genetics to people on wikipedia. -- 184.101.91.185 ( talk) 08:22, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
It's outrageous that the people who say WE are extinct are mad and do not possess the proper command of English or spelling. Furthermore, these so called "facts" are taken from books from the conquerors (Spanish and American). I, on the other hand, am a native Cuban, part Taino. If anyone of you naysayers have ever traveled to Cuba (which I doubt) or any of the former nations of the Caribbean where my ancestors inhabited, I think you would change your minds. I have relatives in Cuba that I travel every other year to see.
I have visited with my family and we have gone to where other clans live mainly in (Las montañas de Oriente) they live moch like on reservations like in the US and are referred to as las batas blancas so
when you do research on the subject at least get the so call facts straight in plain words you don't know what the hell you talking about. yes there are no full bloods but you can say that about ALL of the Americas, yes we are mestizos in Cuba,but most of humanity is in it ?? so i will direct you to theses sites http://www.indigenouspeople.net/taino.htm > http://americantaino.blogspot.com/2007/03/tano-people-of-cuba.html > http://www.onaway.org/indig/taino2.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Luis2112 ( talk • contribs) 03:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
To whom it may concern, I would like to offically contest and protest this untrue public statement about the Taino people by someone whom had edited and added this statement on the Wikipedia section on the Modern Taino Tribe, as the statement found below is an absoultly untrue and without any real crediable documented proof. I here demand that it be removed or it shall be contest in a federal court as a public slanderous untrue statement and your company will have to show and provide the legal proof of burden.
"Some Taíno groups are known to 'adopt' other native traditions (mainly North American Plains Indian)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Japerez ( talk • contribs) 01:02, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
The three organizations mentioned above are not Indian Tribes nor has it been proven that they are legitimite authorities on Taíno culture. There are unfortunately today, no legitimite authorities on authentic Taíno culture. Even historians and scholars can only learn so much from historical records. The Government of the Jatibonicu Taino PeopleTaíno Nation of the Antilles (1993), the United Confederation of Taíno People, and the Jatibonicu Taino People are heritage groups composed of people of dubious Taíno ancestry. There may however be remnants of Taíno culture in Puerto Rico that blended with African and Spanish traditions. If anyone knows of authentic Taíno traditions that still exist, I would like to here them.
I would also like to add that the Spaniards, in additino to bringing in African slaves to Puerto Rico and other parts of the Carribean, also brought in Indian labor from the Yucatan peninsula, and from other areas of Latin America such as Venezuala to replace the Taíno labor, whome were almost brought to the brink of extinction because of abuse, and disease. So the DNA test cannot specify Taino ancestry, only Indian ancestry.
Academics say the modern-day Taino are descended from a 19th-century movement island intellectuals launched to stir nationalism against Spain and are maintained by mainland Puerto Ricans to downplay their African heritage. There is most likely however, a minority of people in Puerto Rico and in the Carribean who do have Taíno ancestry from many generations ago but it is something that would be almost impossible to prove or disprove today because the vast majority of Taino traditions and cultural knowledge has been lost to time and the traditions that did survive tended to mix with Spainiard/European and African traditions. LightingBug ( talk) 02:01, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Its really sad to read that prejudice and racism against the descendants of the Taino people of today is still alive as it was some 500 years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.204.14.226 ( talk) 15:21, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
slaugter of the tianos by who chrisopher columbus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.139.22.2 ( talk) 16:08, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
All Tainos are extinct, this is a fact, it is not racistic to say the truth. “The Jatibonicù Taino Tribal Band of New Jersey" are in no way descendants from the historic Tainos, simpley because they are not related. Writing false information in wikipedia wont give them tribal nation status with the US government, ok ? Simply because legislators base their decisions on facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.214.74 ( talk) 17:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Tainos as a tribe are extinct. However, Taino descendants exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mabrikananixi ( talk • contribs) 00:49, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
The taino are not extinct. They still speak Taino, and have chiefs. And, having Taino ancestry makes Taino NOT extinct. You people arguing that they're extinct are completely illogical. You need to see a psychiatrist. http://www.taino-tribe.org/tedict.html -- 184.101.91.185 ( talk) 08:25, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
Tainos are and WERE NEVER exctinct they exist and are the majority of the modern day BORICUAS ! They never left but European historians and scientists want you to think otherwise! Taino influence is in the vocabulary everything, music, words, customs and the people are STILL Boricuas !— Preceding unsigned comment added by JaneMoreau ( talk • contribs) 05:19, 12 April 2021 (UTC) (Note:Comment moved from top to bottom of section. - Donald Albury 12:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC))
I'm quite astonished that so much fact about current Caribbean culture has been proposed by some contributors, specifically Uyvsdi, as "proof" of Taino existence in modern times. It is stunning to see that use of Native American customs now makes one Native American in the Caribbean basin. As far as I know, eating cornbread, grits, chestnuts, hominy and wild leeks (ramps) never made a white hillbilly Cherokee, but I guess that is now not the case. Taino cultural customs and vocabulary are VERY widespread throughout the Caribbean, as are Southeastern tribal culture (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, you name it) spead throughout the South, and other tribal customs, names, and Indian food use spread throughout the whole of the USA. Being a fraction Indian does not make you Indian. Being a fraction Taino does not and will not make me Indian. Of course, I am sure, as most Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, and dark Cubans are, that my very curled hair is in fact Taino, as is my skin color. I seem to remember many pcitures of Native Americans with afros and such. Let's stop the game and shoot for accuracy in an encyclopedia.-- 76.237.201.11 ( talk) 01:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Why dont you post your “The Jatibonicù Taino Tribal Band of New Jersey” mebership card instead, because your "quotes and references from scholarly journals" are just bogus, fake informations, only written to change public opinion, and give you and give the “The Jatibonicù Taino Tribal Band of New Jersey” tribal nation status. Everybody can write something like that, but it will not be based on facts, please refrain from posting lies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.214.74 ( talk) 17:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Being more than 70% Taino does make you native american, According to federal law determination is made by individual tribes with the most common being 1/8 or more. I don't use US Native American customs because I know nothing of it. All I have is oral tradition passed down by my grandparents. it's funny how people identify me a Puertorican, as hispanic, We are mostly Native 60%+/-, Black 20%+/-, French and Spanish 20%+/- in that order. I can only speak for myself I still have artifacts given to me by my great-great grandmother that I have seen in encyclopedias myself. It can be argued that being 20%+/- European does not make you european does it? Just because you lost your identity through assimilation does not negate your heritage. We may be different from our ancestors but we are still Boricuas. Also the claim by the OP of importation of other natives to the islands is silly since Tainos were very racist and would not mix with other tribes. The only reason they mixed with europeans was because of rape. Htij143 ( talk) 14:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)htij143
I have posted some sources about continued Taino cultural practices in the Eastern parts of Cuba and a Smithsonian article about a cultural exhibition that recognizes the surviving legacy of the Taino in the Caribbean and the diaspora abroad. I believe this should be enough evidence for cultural continuity and authentic cultural revitalization of the Taino culture and peoples. Mtgarcia369 ( talk) 13:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
I took History some time ago, but as far as I recall, the Taino are a cultural stage and belong to the same group of people as the Pre-Tainos and Igneri did. They are all Central American Indians closely related or belonging to, the Arawaks. Also, they were not Christians so the translation given here of Boriken as something "blah blah Land of the Lord blah" is completely inaccurate and as a Puertorrican it is the FIRST time I have ever heard them term translated. I also eliminated the sentence mentioning that they called themeselves "Boricuas". I believe the term Boricua is a modern term, perhaps even originating in New York as a corruption of Borinqueño", as I can't recall any mention of the word in popular art or culture in the mainland of Puerto Rico, and it is (to this date) commonly used in more colloquial terms, while Borinqueño or Borincano are used a bit more formally...
In any event, I doubt that the Tainos would call themselves anything. The concept of property and individuality was brought on by Europeans. I have serious doubts about the idea that they would answer "Oh yes we are Boricua.". The concept of "tribes", "culture" and "group of people" where probably very alien to them. It is more likely that the Spaniards came up with the word and coined the term based on the fact that the natives called the place Boriquen.
I invite anyone with the knowledge to come in and add to the article, but please use proper citations. -- Reefpicker ( talk) 18:32, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
For those who claim that there are no Taino left, how do you explain the Yateras Indians of eastern Cuba? You can read all about them in the anthology "Indigenous Resurgence in the Contemporary Caribbean" by Maximillian Forte, in the chapter “Panchito, Mountain Cacique: Cuban Taino Survivals" by Jose Barreiro. There are historical records of the Yateras Indians fighting for the Spanish in the colonial revolts of the 19th Century. They consider themselves Taino descendants and have been regarded as Indians by their neighbors.
Also, why do skeptics hold Taino claims to such unreasonably high standards? It seems as if you want modern Tainos to be exactly the same as their Pre-Columbian ancestors, whereas many officially-recognized Native Americans in the United States have mixed ancestry, no longer speak their indigenous languages, and live Westernized lifestyles. A great example of this is the Mashantucket Pequot. -- 96.245.119.190 ( talk) 01:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
[redacted] The Taino have dies out, this is tragic, but it is nearly comical how certaing political persons and "tribes" try to change history just to get what they want. Maybe we should start an "Tribe of Atlantis" or something like that.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.99.214.74 ( talk) 17:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
I do not believe it is misappropriate for a fraternity to use Taino imagery. As they embrace several aspects of Taino culture and celebrate the culture in various ways. As the section is titled “Taíno heritage in modern times” it is important to note and describe organization that celebrate or feel some type of connection to that culture. Specifically, when an organization embraces a Taino native as it’s symbol of cultural pride. The addition does not make any outlandish claims but instead just notes that this organization has embraced the Taino people as there symbol. Monarca7 ( talk) 07:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
The recent move of this article was not discussed at all, despite the article being actively edited by a large number of editors. A (correctly performed) move to Taíno people is fine with me personally, but the disambiguation info needs to go to Taíno (disambiguation) and Taíno should redirect to Taíno people, since it is hands down the primary article for "Taíno." - Uyvsdi ( talk) 16:47, 6 June 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi
I just reverted the unexplained deletion of the sentence, "Despite this massive decline in population, it is safe to say that there simply wasn't enough of a Spanish military presence to be attributed to the large reduction of native manpower," from the section on Population decline. That sentence appears to have two citations just for itself. I do not have ready access to the sources, so I cannot verify that the cited sources support the statement. However, the statement seems to me to be awkwardly worded and not encyclopedic in tone. Any suggestions? -- Donald Albury 23:09, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be told that the two Dominican girls are actually mulattoes, and not Indians? Ok, it's told that it's carnival, but it's still misleading. -- Lecen ( talk) 00:37, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
"Cuba, the smallest island of the Antilles ...." This can't be correct. Probably "largest" is meant but I don't know. OldAndTired ( talk) 21:37, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Please give complete refernce to "Chrisp 2006, p. 34." -- Finn Bjørklid ( talk) 22:11, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
There's an IP changing this article who has obviously read What Became of the Taíno?, watched a tv program on it, or something similar. Unfortunately they aren't using sources and are leaving the article a bit of a mess. I don't know if anyone feels up to fixing this, but I don't have time at the moment or really the background. Doug Weller ( talk) 11:21, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
An editor has replaced the word "raped" with the euphemism "interbred", giving the following changing explanations:
I reviewed the cited sources (3 in the lead after the occurrence of the word "rape", a couple more in the 'Women' section of the article), and while I didn't find a single instance of the word "interbred", I did find many instances of "rape" / "outraged" / "Raped" / "trampled on the chastity". Now, I'm sure the "reality of the situation" changed over time, as sources attest. According to records, the first 39 Spanish raped. They were soon killed. Later expeditions arrived, more women were raped, and many were "taken" - and the sources do not mean in the "Do you take this woman to be your wife" manner - forcibly taken. Some Taino women did indeed enter into marriage with the Spanish, and some with Africans, but we must keep in mind that within the first decade after arrival, the Taino society of millions dwindled down to scattered tribes of mere hundreds. We can certainly describe the details of the "interbreeding" that occurred between the Spanish & Taino & Africans, but we can't sanitize out rape, abductions, and exploitations when they feature so prominently in the reliable sources. And perhaps of further concern is that such sanitization of history to legitimize such brutality has been happening over time, as noted repeatedly in our Accilien source, perhaps exemplified by the Guitar paper submission.
If one aspect of the inter-relationships between groups of people should be expanded, we don't start by removing another reliably sourced aspect. I'd be happy to work with the IP editor on this content. Xenophrenic ( talk) 21:31, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
The lede has the following, "In the Greater Antilles, the northern Lesser Antilles, and The Bahamas, they were known as the Lucayans." There is a citation to 'Alegría, Ricardo E. "Taínos" in Christopher Columbus Encyclopedia vol. 1, p. 345. New York: Simon and Schuster 1992.' I don't have access to Alegria, but, even if the Alegria source extends the term "Lucayan" to all of the Antilles, the preponderance of sources restrict the term to the Bahamas and the Turks and Caicos Islands. - Donald Albury 15:21, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
How will the Mythology section differ from the existing Spirituality section? If the Mythology section is not started within a day or two I will delete it. We should not leave empty sections in articles. If the Mythology section duplicates or largely overlaps the Spiritualogy section, they will be merged. - Donald Albury 16:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)
Any one know how the Taino people got from south American to any Island's in the Caribbean.
I think this section has a tone that is quite un-encyclopedic. I am also uncomfortable with the point of view. I did not remove the section because I can see the possiblity of some useful being made of it, but I think it needs work. I will work on improving it, but do want to hear other opinions. - Donald Albury 20:08, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
See this diff for the copyrighted content that was added on Oct. 21, 2013.-- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 07:38, 16 December 2019 (UTC)
I read "Taino: A Novel" by Jose Barriero which is likely the same as "Taino: The Indian Chronicles." I highlighted many passages in the book that is significant to history. However, what makes it real and genuine versus what makes it a fictictious pseudo novel? Jose Barriero himself calls it the true story and he also explains how he found this information from a local village friar in Cuba as you read into the book and listen to some of his interviews. The reason why this is important is because introducing the source Taino: A Novel on wikipedia may get the book denied as good source material based on the life on Dieguillo "Guaiken" Colon. Not to mention I had a dispute with a wikipedia editor/user who means well and has contributed to the Taino page of this website. In my opinion, I believe its very real in terms of what Dieguillo thinks and witnessed during 15th and 16th century. Another problem is that the book by Jose Barriero may have re-imagined the accounts of Dieguillo, even though this is the journal of Dieguillo written in 1st person narrative. What is your opinion?
Just think Jim Carry recently mixed fiction with Non-Fiction in his semi-autobiographical "Memoirs and Misinformation" and another example is the The Bible. These are examples of what we believe to be real and fake and its all about how we judge, trust, and use our intuition on the material. To better confirm how real "Taino: A Novel" is, I believe we must find sources of Christopher Columbus and Bartolome de Las Casas; introduced as logs, abstracts and expecially journals. This won't guarantee that these historical figures have written about Guaiken a.k.a Dieguillo Colon in particular, but if there is any evidence from their writings of the Taino Indian then it helps to verify the authenticity of source materials written by Jose Barriero.
Please feel Free to check out the draft on my user page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Californianscholar ( talk • contribs) 21:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Jos%C3%A9_Barreiro
( Californianscholar ( talk) 20:24, 8 August 2020 (UTC))
True the novel is a historical fiction. However the paperback version of the book also says its based on a true story. So this is loosely based on the Taino indian. I just saw what other source material are possibly good accurate non-fiction accounts that mentions Dieguillo, as mentioned by Jose Barriero. I will verify as I do more avid reading. These include "View from the Shore: Toward an Indian Voice in 1992" by Jose Barriero, "History of the Indies" by Bartolome de Las Casas, "Historia general y natural de las Indias" by Gonzalez Fernandez de Oviedo, "The life of the Admiral Chrisopher Columbus by his Son Ferdinand," "Letter of the Second Voyage" by Michele de Cuneo, "Decadas del Nuevo Mundo" by Pedro Martir de Angleria, "European Discovery of America by Samuel Morrison, etc. ( Californianscholar ( talk) 22:22, 8 August 2020 (UTC))
Hi, this claim in the article 'A smallpox epidemic in Hispaniola in 1518–1519 killed almost 90% of the surviving Taíno' is not true. It cites an old article from 1972 and a book on the global sugar industry. Historians who deal specifically with the topic like Massimo Livi Bacci stress that the changes associated with the European arrival, including forced labor etc, caused the massive depopulation and epidemics were merely an auxiliary factor, especially since the first major epidemic did not occur for 20 years after arrival yet the population was already dropping massively beforehand. Papers that are more specific about the topic in question are much better sources for a specific claim like this one. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/38903 181.118.13.77 ( talk) 16:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
The Taíno were an Arawak people who were the indigenous people of the Caribbean and Florida.At the time of European contact in the late 15th century,they were the principal inhabitants of most of Cuba,Jamaica,Hispaniola(the Dominican Republic and Haiti),and Puerto Rico. -- 72.27.118.182 ( talk) 13:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
I have marked a citation to RacandHistory.com as possibly self-published. At the top of the site's home page it states, "A community of volunteers committed to social development." While articles have authors listed, I see no signs of any kind of editorial process. This looks like a group blog, which would make it a non- reliable source per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources. Convince me otherwise, or I will remove the citation. - Donald Albury 19:20, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
I think this page should be requested for semi protection. Too many neo-Tainos vandalising it. Ddum5347 ( talk) 17:24, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
Can I ask why this page was protected? Why were the corrections reverted repeatedly, and now locked? Jnjn0616 ( talk) 22:28, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
I, too, would like know why the page is being “protected.” Also, what’s the issue with Taíno descendants changing the page? It isn’t vandalism and it’s a correction that needs to be made since it’s clear to see many of you aren’t well versed in Taíno history and people. Realblasiann ( talk) 05:39, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
I’d like to know why some of you non-Taíno people felt it was right to lock the page after people were correcting false information. The Taíno ARE and not were a people. They never went extinct. There are most literally full blooded Taíno in the mountains of the Greater Antilles and across the entirety of the Caribbean. Even if there weren’t, there are descendants of full blooded Taínos who have significant percentages of Taíno ancestry. Realblasiann ( talk) 23:53, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
Ancient DNA Reconstructs the Genetic Legacies of Precontact Puerto Rico Communities Maria A Nieves-Colón, William J Pestle, Austin W Reynolds, Bastien Llamas, Constanza de la Fuente, Kathleen Fowler, Katherine M Skerry, Edwin Crespo-Torres, Carlos D Bustamante, Anne C Stone Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 37, Issue 3, March 2020, Pages 611–626, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msz267 Published: 09 November 2019 https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/37/3/611/5618728 Jnjn0616 ( talk) 05:23, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
The article DOES cite multiple sources that trace MtDNA of Caribbean people to indigenous people originating from regions where many Taíno ancestors inhabited. This is something ALREADY cited and stated in the Taíno wiki. You’re right - Taíno identification is more than DNA. Having Taíno language, customs & spirituality passed on from generation to their descendants is more than enough to simply change “were” to “are”. I don’t expect you to understand the intricacies of identity & culture, as I can imagine you are not from the very land & people we are talking about. Taíno identity IS shaped by colonization, endogamy, and the many events impacting the region. To say that descendants of Taíno don’t exist borders on erasure. We exist as a blend of ethnicities & cultures, whether that’s my Andalucian, Senegalian or Taíno ancestors. The tone & thesis of your response reeks of a neo-school of the antiquated one-drop rule. Jnjn0616 ( talk) 23:21, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Here is a nat-geo article that summarises not only that living people in the Caribbean have genetic ties to their Taíno ancestors but also that they still identify as Taíno. It also talks about how the government committed a "paper genocide" against them, hence why it's important us as Wikipedians not replicate that. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/meet-survivors-taino-tribe-paper-genocide I apologise to the Taíno people who have had their edits reverted and experiences invalidated, please do not let that discourage you from improving this article and others about your people and culture. -- Contrawwftw ( talk) 20:14, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
and seems to conflict with some of the claims made by the Higuayagua group. I can't access the paper, so I haven't read it. Carlstak ( talk) 00:23, 20 December 2021 (UTC)The Caribbean was one of the last regions of the Americas to be settled by humans, but where they came from and how and when they reached the islands remain unclear. We generated genome-wide data for 93 ancient Caribbean islanders dating between 3200 and 400 calibrated years before the present and found evidence of at least three separate dispersals into the region, including two early dispersals into the Western Caribbean, one of which seems connected to radiation events in North America. This was followed by a later expansion from South America. We also detected genetic differences between the early settlers and the newcomers from South America, with almost no evidence of admixture. Our results add to our understanding of the initial peopling of the Caribbean and the movements of Archaic Age peoples in the Americas.
I have posted some sources about continued Taino cultural practices in the Eastern parts of Cuba and a Smithsonian article about a cultural exhibition that recognizes the surviving legacy of the Taino in the Caribbean and the diaspora abroad. I believe this should be enough evidence for cultural continuity and authentic cultural revitalization of the Taino culture and peoples. Mtgarcia369 ( talk) 16:45, 22 December 2021 (UTC) Mtgarcia369
Another type of acceptable source would be mainstream academics documenting a recent related cultural reappropriation or movement with a relevant narrative (in which case the article could mention it and would need to describe it as such). Unless WP:RS have a special treatment of colonial narratives, that is also unlikely to be very useful, since for WP it's not Spanish vs Taino that counts, just mainstream scholarship... — Paleo Neonate – 05:15, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
The use of the past tense to describe the Taino people who are not extinct and still inhabit their land. The fact the page has been locked is embarrassing especially after the concerns voiced by many Taino people. 2001:B07:6461:5B94:E8A9:ECF2:C02E:9BB4 ( talk) 08:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Why is it when actual Taíno people and other Indigenous people give clear and exact evidence it's labeled as "not enough". How can you say you know more than *actual* Native Americans, scholars, museums, and organizations? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.215.221.89 ( talk) 19:22, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I've read what I need as true information, and all my evidence fits this. Articles from Museums, Scholars, Organizations, etc. Even record of Taíno students being given scholarships only for Native Americans. What more could you need?
Can I please get an answer back on my claims? Because it seems you all only have things to say when you can easily dismiss our evidence, but when we have actual evidence like Native scholarships from Harvard being given to Taíno students, y'all are silent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:906:20C7:5919:3F25:8991:F10D ( talk) 01:50, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
A Taíno tribe has just been officially recognized in The Virgin Islands, proving we still exist. Some big edits need to be made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:906:20C7:8DEF:1F14:3C13:7238 ( talk) 06:01, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
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In the sentence "The Taíno were an indigenous people of the Caribbean.", change the word "were" to "are". Mtgarcia369 ( talk) 18:55, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
{{
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template. I see the sources, which should help, but this needs to be discussed. There is active discussion in the section above. Please reach consensus on this.
ScottishFinnishRadish (
talk) 12:16, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
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It states ‘Taíno were’ when it should in fact state ‘Taíno are’, as they are not extinct. 72.140.40.245 ( talk) 20:21, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
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There are several million Taíno alive today in the east coast of the United States. Beings that are alive are not extinct or past tense; please change the first line from were to are thank you. 69.127.242.53 ( talk) 15:09, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
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Change were to are. A Taíno tribe in the US Virgin Islands has been officially recognized.
https://stthomassource.com/content/2022/04/06/usvi-taino-chief-seeks-members/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:906:20C7:8DEF:1F14:3C13:7238 ( talk) 14:14, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
2603:7080:906:20C7:8DEF:1F14:3C13:7238 ( talk) 07:26, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Why has this not been done despite several sources being posted? The article itself refers to a revival; not changing were to are is contradicting the article. Bovianchovy ( talk) 02:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Native Amerindians and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 May 8#Native Amerindians until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. — Ⓜ️hawk10 ( talk) 15:48, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
This still seems a bit unbalanced.
Starting with these 3, orphaned in a comment from a few sections up:
– SJ + 21:17, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
The page for Taino people has seen a significant amount of conflict that has been unresolved, and doesn't appear to have had any formal discussions, for over a decade. This is primarily around if Wikipedia should recognise the several groups who claim to be Taino in modern times. The conventional wisdom seems to be that the Taino have not existed as a people for hundreds of years; while the opposing view is that the Taino have either continued quietly or have reinvigorated a sleeping culture. Both have research and sources to back them up.
Even if it is readily demonstratable that the Taino are not a continuous culture and are instead represented by a sort of 'Neo-Taino' - this also warrants addressing in the article. As it stands, there are many people who claim to be Taino who attempt to edit Wikipedia or express themselves on the Talk page and are shut down. This isn't a very good look; and the controversy has led to an article that is confusing to a huge fault. For example: in the lead it says that the Taino 'were' a people, while in the article body it talks about many Taino communities; including one that received Federal Recognition in 2021 in the US Virgin Islands.
While the case of the expressed extinguishment of the Taino people would have been many generations before, from an Australian lens this doesn't seem enough to disqualify their legitimacy. Neither does, as one user said on this talk page, a requirement that they constantly speak Taino language, wear Taino clothes, or cook Taino food. This is not something that most people on reservations in the US do either.
I also am unsure of the claim that because they are not a registered tribe by the US Federal Government, they are not a tribe. This sets off a lot of red flags as I'm sure anyone with a cursory knowledge of colonialism would understand.
Following input from users here, I think an RfC on this issue may be necessary to resolve this long-standing conflict.
Disclaimer: My understanding of North American indigenous peoples is limited. I've done some research into the Taino to try to get my head around it but have not formed an opinion on the issue. I am focused on Australia, where there are not the concepts of 'blood-quantum', formal tribal rolls, or recognition of 'sovereign' tribes. So the situation is significantly different, and the general understanding in Australia is that an Australian Aboriginal person is any person with Aboriginal heritage no matter how distant. There's also not a significant number of people here who claim Aboriginal ancestry without it being truthful. All these issues appear to be near-opposite in the USA. Specifically in regards to the Taino, in Australia, significant movements to reinvigorate near-extinguished cultures have been hugely successful and have been seen as legitimate because they are run by people of descent from those groups, and with the understanding that their culture was extinguished by force during colonisation.
PS I have also posted this comment on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America. Poketama ( talk) 04:34, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
We still speak almost nothing but Taino. I learned to understand English, but I think it's too difficult to speak. I've been said to speak English poorly, when I tried to recently. -- 184.101.190.233 ( talk) 06:46, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Do the Taino exist today, whether as an ongoing culture, people, or ethnic group? How should Wikipedia address the subject of modern communities who claim to be Taino? Poketama ( talk) 11:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
Still, some scholars remain skeptical. “You have to be aware of people running around saying they’re Taíno, because they are after a federal subsidy,” said Bernardo Vega, a former director of the Museum of the Dominican Man and the Dominican Republic’s former ambassador to the United States. Yvonne M. Narganes Storde, an archaeologist at the University of Puerto Rico agreed. She gives the activists credit for preserving important sites on the island, but she sounded wary of their emphasis on establishing a separate Taíno identity. “All the cultures are blended here,” she said. “I probably have Taíno genes. We all do. We have incorporated all these cultures—African, Spanish and Indian. We have to live with it.”
A few pockets of Taíno culture remain in eastern Cuba, an area shaped by rugged mountains and years of isolation. “Anybody who talks about the extinction of the Taíno has not really looked at the record,” said Alejandro Hartmann Matos, the city historian of Baracoa, Cuba’s oldest city, and an authority on the island’s earliest inhabitants.
I'm not certain what their status is. GoodDay ( talk) 13:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment:Poketama, Wanted to make this comment while the discussion in still in its embryonic stages. Most Wikipedians have little time to contribute to the encyclopedia and even less to (deserving) discussions like this one. To be most effective, I would suggest you add a one-liner next to each of the sources you listed above stating what, IYO, is the most important factual takeaway of each source. That way, editors interested in digging in further based on the one liner can do so. Also, like at least one editor above stated, I am not certain what the current status of Taino culture is, both within WP (among editors) or in the literature at large. Assuming you are relatively acquainted with its current status, if I had been you, I would had also added a short 2-4 sentence introductory paragraph to give passersby a quick update in that respect. Regards,
Mercy11 (
talk) 23:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I think they survived per: https://global.si.edu/projects/caribbean-indigenous-legacies-project# says "the Caribbean Indigenous Legacies Project is revealing how Taíno culture survived..." [1]
In P.R. what we understand is that we are a mix of three: European, Native, African and that is what the DNA results show. See the statues in Manati, Puerto Rico show one of each and then a 4th = Boricua . -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 00:09, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
@ Poketama:, @ Donald Albury:, @ Carlstak:, and all those other editors who have been most active in this Talk page, What exactly are you traying to accomplish with this discussion? Gaining consensus? Consensus for what?
We need to know --precisely-- what the one and main, and (hopefully) only goal of this Discussion is, or else it will shoot out in all directions aimlessly. And, again, most Wikipedians don't have time for such aimless pursuits. Respectfully, Mercy11 ( talk) 00:12, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment: I think, looking at the history of edits, one of the main issues is whether to use "are" or "were". This article should say that the Taino "are" the people who were met by the conquerors, some went into hiding, but up to 90% may have been wiped out and current research has found their culture did not die out. DNA research shows it as well. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 01:07, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
References
Comment On pg 161, "The Tainos : rise & decline of the people who greeted Columbus" by Rouse, Irving, (1913-2006) states:
"Even though the Tainos themselves are extinct, persons claiming Taino ancestry have survived in all three of the Spanish-speaking countries: DR, PR, and Cuba..."
then Rouse added: "... a large proportion of the modern population of the DR, PR, and Cuba is able to claim partial descent from the Tainos."
This article's lead is using pg 161 of Rouse's book to say Tainos "were". IP and other editors change it to "are" and these edits have gone back and forth for a long time.
.. but Rouse continues (and this article should continue with the rest of the statement Rouse made on pg 161), which (again) states that "... a large proportion of the modern population of the DR, PR, and Cuba is able to claim partial descent from the Tainos."
The book is available for borrowing from the Internet Archives. So I think saying "partial descent from the Tainos" is best. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 12:10, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment Perhaps lead should say "Taino refers to the people who were met by the explorers looking for gold, and the people who (in modern times) can claim to be partially descended from them." BTW, on birth certificates in Hawaii, the percentage of Hawaiian ancestry is included, even if it is tiny / minute. -- The Eloquent Peasant ( talk) 12:45, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
One critical source that needs to be addressed is the US Virgin Islands official recognition of the Taino as a tribe. I havn't seen any discussion of it except to suggest the source is unreliable, but the documents look authentic. I can contact the department I suppose to verify authenticity.
If it is authentic, I think its hard for us to justify not listing Taino as existing. https://stthomassource.com/content/2022/04/06/usvi-taino-chief-seeks-members/#:~:text=The%20official%20recognition%20was%20the,U.S.%20Virgin%20Islands%20in%202021. Poketama ( talk) 22:21, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment Much of this controversy seems to stem from varying interpretations of the word people, as in "The Taíno are/were an indigenous people of the Caribbean." I take it to refer broadly to the society/culture that existed at the time of their Columbian encounter. I've read Rouse's book and it's clear to me that he intended the same meaning. Others appear to take a more literal definition of the people: the group of human beings who were living in the Caribbean at the time. In this case, Rouse's unfortunate misuse of the word extinction raises all sorts of objections because, not surprisingly, there are people alive today that are related to those who were part of the Taino culture. Rouse and most academics would agree that the Taino society/culture was destroyed but descendants of that population survived and are alive today. My suggestions would be to clarify the opening sentence to mean Taino society and/or culture. I would also back off on the use of the words extinct and extinction. No one claims there was a biological extinction and it's used multiple times in the article as a strawman. (They said the Taino were extinct but DNA evidence...). Glendoremus ( talk) 14:54, 5 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment This seems a lot like mestizo identity in Mexico. Give up your language, and you're mestizo, even if you're 100% indigenous by ancestry. In the US, you'd still consider yourself Indian, but not in Mexico. There's also some degree of indigenous revival in Mexico (and among Chicanos in the US), though with the complication that you likely don't know what your ancestry is exactly. In Cuba, you can be pretty sure it's Taino, as the non-Taino peoples were marginal even at the time of the Conquest.
A culture, like a language or a religion, can go extinct without any decline or shift in population. In Cuba, the Taino are no longer a distinct people. Whether you call the Taino 'extinct' is a matter of semantics. The Germanic tribes are extinct, though Germans obviously aren't. The Etruscans are extinct, though their descendants live on. We speak of several 'extinct' Finnic peoples of Russia, though to a large extent they are the Russians. The Ainu are extinct in mainland Japan, though I remember one Japanese scholar who argued that the samurai were Ainu by descent.
For a long time there was a question over whether the Britons went extinct, at least in the east of England, and were replaced by the invading Germanic tribes, but now it seems that they were linguistically assimilated, and that the English are mostly Celtic by ancestry. Yet we wouldn't say that a Yorkshireman was 'Welsh', even if we could prove that he was 100% Welsh by ancestry. A people is defined by culture and ethnic identity, and so can go 'extinct' if they give up that identity and are absorbed into something else.
But there is often the implication that 'extinct' means they died off. And they did, in the sense that those who maintained their identity died off, as their descendants assimilated. But it was big news in Puerto Rico when it was discovered that Puerto Ricans were 60% indigenous by ancestry. As with the English, it was generally assumed that since the Taino/Welsh were gone, the present people must descend from the invaders. That's an implication we should guard against even when there's no cultural revival to challenge it. — kwami ( talk) 05:43, 6 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment Re: the subject, as an Afro-indigenous person, a problem that I continue to see especially in the mainland US, is a very regressive and settler colonialist view that Natives have to be virtual facsimiles of their ancestors in order to exist in a contemporaneous context culturally. This renders us ahistorical, because it means we can really only exist as an unchanging reified past, never as one that is too modern, because the culture is suddenly too different to be "Native". Cultures change for a variety of reasons, some voluntarily, others involuntarily like those descending from colonized regions. Things are lost and/or outright abandoned, other elements survive in full or in part, and new things are created, sometimes involuntarily (i.e. rape). All living societies experience this more or less, which makes questions about whether Taínos exist as a people strange, but not unexpected coming from non-Natives. You also can't attack and disenfranchise cultures that do not exist; folk and spiritual traditions of those who identified as indigenous and those whom were African were specifically targeted as backwards and antithetical to Puerto Rican culture in state-sanctioned propaganda...during the 40's. Not centuries ago, decades ago, as highlighted in this essay from the Centro Journal of Puerto Rican studies. The fact these elements mixed into another but remained identifiable doesn't suggest extinction but adaptation. They survive as part of a larger whole.
Some of the arguments here for "intact" cultures and using modern interpretations as a disqualifier actually discredit the existence of generally accepted Native groups who've had to "modernize" otherwise dying languages to prevent their extinction. White Sage, most-commonly associated with smudging, was also used in cuisine once and that practice is being reintroduced in a contemporaneous context. There are the Nahua. There is even, with respect to this debate, a well-established community of thousands in Cuba descending from and maintaining the remaining Taíno traditions and culture that managed to survive genocide, especially in La Rancheria. They were even featured by the Smithsonian. That alone easily satisfies an argument for the survival of the natives commonly-called Taínos in academic discourse. Do they need to be the same and "pure" culturally? No, because no society remains entirely unchanged throughout hundreds of years and numerous surviving Native groups posted on this site have descendants who've experienced similar acculturation.
Are modern people known as Taínos the same as their ancestors culturally? No; the culture in most instances is largely different for obvious reasons, and there's no harm in distinguishing this in the same way one distinguishes the Maya civilization of the past from the Maya people who are their descendants of the present identified as such. We know they have genetic descendants(not the earlier island study I see frequently cited) who are now predominantly mixed, we know there are communities studied that maintain some of it, and that there are native descendants who have chosen to more explicitly ID as Taíno culturally in a contemporaneous context. Personal arguments about the legitimacy or lack thereof of descendants maintaining an authentically "Taíno" culture should be presented in a relevant section in the article. I mean, even the Spanish article doesn't have a problem speaking of Taínos in the way people have asked objectively and noting the distinction. So what is truly stopping this one? Mwatuangi ( talk) 17:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Comment: For the lead, these points should be included (of course, worded better).
References
I've made a couple edits to reflect the current state of the article and include the seperate section as the RFC concluded. After your revert, what would you propose as alternative to what I have done @ Donald Albury? Do you have any specific criticism? I would rather improve the article through cumulative edits as there is a lot of work to do. Poketama ( talk) 15:32, 7 September 2022 (UTC)
I've made some edits in the intro section to reflect the three arguments about Taino extinction vs. prevalence. See my edits here. Have I captured the three arguments correctly? Thanks! CareAhLine ( talk) 01:30, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
The Tainos enjoy themselves by playing a ball game.They played a game called batos.Batos was played in an open field.It was played by two teams which tried to hit a rubber ball using their hips, knees, heads,elbows and shoulder.
The ball was made from the sap of a tree. The aim of the ball game was to hit the ball over the goal line of the opposite team. 63.143.116.216 ( talk) 00:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
> When a male heir did not exist, the inheritance or succession would go to the oldest male child of the sister of the deceased.
Did you mean, "when a female heir did not exist..."? 68.108.243.87 ( talk) 17:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Why use the verb “were” to refer to a people when the article later goes on to say are continuing and reviving their culture? If the culture continues, as the first sentence states, then shouldn’t the people be referred to in the present tense? Bovianchovy ( talk) 02:08, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
Just caught up on the Great Debate of 2022… where does this stand?? Bovianchovy ( talk) 02:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
I looked into this claim which was tagged as needing a citation:
"Diego Álvarez Chanca, a physician who traveled with Christopher Columbus, reported in a letter that Spaniards took as many women as they possibly could and kept them as concubines."
I believe it's referencing a letter from Chanca in which he says that Caribes, not Spaniards, kidnapped other indigenous women (probably including, but not specifically, Taíno women):
"The habits of these Caribbees (sic.) are brutal .... In their attacks upon the neighboring islands, these people capture as many of the women as they can, especially those who are young and beautiful, and keep them as servants or to have as concubines." https://content.wisconsinhistory.org/digital/collection/aj/id/4381
This reference could be added to the earlier paragraph about Carib raids, but given that Chanca's letter doesn't refer to Taíno women specifically, I am opting to remove it entirely. 74.71.162.63 ( talk) 14:49, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
So, I remembered someone referencing a local news article about the US Virgin Islands government recognizing the Guainia Taíno Tribe in a proclamation, which was shown in it. Someone asked to verify it. I have found a proclamation for Indigenous People’s Day on the official government site that recognizes the contributions of the tribe mentioned in the VI article and its leader explicitly, noting “The tribal membership of the Guainia Taino tribe of the Virgin Islands, as attested by their signatures and in accordance with the United Nations Declaration on the rights of Indigenous Peoples, formally conferred on Maekiaphan Phillips the rank and honor of Kasike (Chief)and Chairwoman of the Guainia Taino of the Virgin Islands' Tribal Council,”. So it appears the recognition mentioned in the first article is legit. Mwatuangi ( talk) 14:32, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
Why does the article use a colonial Spanish corruption of the original Arawak word (cacique came from Arawak kassiquan), It means "keeper of a house" or "housekeeper." In Spanish it means "chief" and is used in that manner throughout Latin America (when it's used at all).
The Spanish misunderstood the Arawak concept and then corrupted the language and made it a synonym for "jefe" (so that they could believe they were talking to someone with authority to give up land).
Why not just use the indigenous word, since it's known? If needed, the Spanish equivalent could be in parenthesis - and link to the article that actually explains the etymology of cacique. El Cubedo ( talk) 17:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
It is highly unlikely that Columbus called the Taino "Indians" (as in thinking they are in India" as that doesn't even fit Spanish or Italian word structure. It's far more likely he referred to them as "Indios", as in a shortened form of "indigena", meaning " the indigenous people of that area. Columbus and his men were very skilled sailors with modern maps at the time. The idea that they went in the entirely wrong direction at every turn and still think they wound up in India is laughable. Disinfectantrum ( talk) 19:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
This article and talk page looks really quite poor. A clear standard should be discussed as to what even meets the conditions of "continued existence", and if the Taino are not of continued existence then a page or large section of the article should be dedicated to Neo Taino. This is clearly a hot political topic but as such it deserves more attention. 84.71.252.187 ( talk) 13:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
This
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I feel like the term mixed race is just incorrect. There is no biological basis for race, the correct term to the best of my knowledge should be mixed heritage, multicultural, or multinational ancestory.
Therefore I think that we should change mixed-race to the more accurate multicultural ancestory, or similar. 82.38.199.49 ( talk) 21:08, 21 January 2024 (UTC)