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I came to this page to understand why Swedish is the only language I know of that doesn't have an irregular inflection of "good". Instead it has both "god, godare, godast" and "bra, bättre, bäst". However, the article seems to say it isn't so. Not being native Swedish I don't wan to edit, but surely "god, bättre, bäst" is not correct/common Swedish?
I could use some information on the origins of the various forms of aller/ir/andare from a Latin scholar. -- user:Montrealais
Latin verb ferre, to bring, carry has the principal parts fero, ferre, tuli, latum, meaning Is this irregular verb a result of suppletion in a precursor language? Any Latin scholars care to comment?
Most domesticated land animals and their meat have a particularly rich set of non-cognate terms depending on age, sex, and castration. For instance: sheep, ram, ewe, wether, lamb, mutton. Do these numerous terms come under the category of suppletion? If not, where do they go? I am keen to see a table of such words, and create one if it doesn't exist, as it is a particularly striking feature of the English language. Is this phenomenon seen in other languages?
"He has been to France" is not a suppletion but a standard use of the verb "be" with an adjective phrase. Movement is implied by the dative quality of "to France" as in "He got to the final level in record-breaking time" or "I was already to Chapter 12 when he started reading." "Go" is not a required element.
I have removed the following section:
I don't think "suppletive" is being used in the same way here. (I may be misinterpreting the above paragraph: in which case, by all means reinstate it, but try to make it clearer: I don't see how it qualifies as "suppletion" in the sense used in the article.) "Suppletion" can be defined:
Suppletion may be regarded as an extreme kind of internal change, in which the entire base—not merely a part of it—is replaced by another
{{
cite book}}
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has extra text (
help)In traditional terms, the following types of highly irregular items in the lexical categories are said to be "suppletive."
- Verbs: go/went; be/are; Latin ferre 'to bring' / tuli 'brought' / latus 'brought'
- Nouns: person/people
- Adjectives: good/better/well
Ordinary irregular variants such as stand/stood; catch/caught; woman/women are not generally considered suppletive.
Suppletion is defined as the phenomenon whereby regular semantic relations are encoded by unpredictable formal patterns. Cases where the paradigmatically related forms share some phonological material are examples of weak suppletion, as in English buy versus bought, while cases with no shared phonological material are instances of strong suppletion, as in English go versus went.
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help)The Natural Scale of Morphotactic Transparency illustrates the hierarchy in which morphological and phonological rules cause some morphemes to be more transparent than others. The scale is: Total Transparency > Resyllabification > Phonological Rules > Morphological Rules > Weak Suppletion > Strong Suppletion.
Someone with access to the following might fill this in better:
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help)Probably the article should distinguish between the broad/weak and narrow/strong senses, but I think it should concentrate on the latter. jnestorius( talk) 21:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The column labeled "Comparative/Superlative" contains mixed information, so that it is not clear (to one, like me, who is unfamiliar with these languages) whether the words in the rows for Romance languages are comparatives or superlatives. I suspect someone expanded an existing table without amending the label or the structure. Perhaps this column should be broken into two, yes? fuper ( talk) 15:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Persian forms should be here too: khub, behtar, behtarin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.65.94.223 ( talk) 17:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, despite what I said about duine/daoine over at Talk:Weak suppletion, I'm commenting it out here because I can't find sources that confirm that the version I heard (that "duine" comes from *ghdhm-yo- from *ghdhem- "earth", while "daoine" comes from *dhewenyo- from *dhew- "die") is in fact the standard view. I believe it is the standard view, but in the sources available to me at the moment, all I can find is (1) people deriving "duine" from *ghdhm-yo- with no mention of daoine, (2) people deriving "duine" from *ghdhm-yo- and daoine from *ghdhoim-o- (cf. Latin hūmānus < *(dh)ghoim-), and (3) people deriving duine from zero grade *du-n-yo- and daoine from e-grade *deu-enyo-. But I can't find a source that comes and and says directly what I learned in graduate school, name that for all their surface similarity, the two forms are etymologically unrelated. — An gr 18:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Isn't "irregular" simply a pedagogical term and not a linguistic one? We say French etre, aller are "irregular" because they do not follow normal conjugation patterns. But aren't etre-suis suppletive? According to the defintion given under this heading one could never predict suis from etre, or "am" from "be" for that matter--making these traditionally suppletive forms "irregular." I would recommend instead something along the lines of
"The term 'irregular' is used in language learning to suggest that a given form or paradigm does not follow a usual pattern or rule, such as the conjugation of "to be" in English or "aller" in French. The term 'suppletion' is a linguistic notion that refers to pairs of words that have the same basic meaning but are phonetically distinct--such as "be" ~ "am." Whether or not the historical origins of the words in such pairs is critical to the notion of suppletion is a subject of current inquiry in linguistics." 3.262ly ( talk) 18:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)3.262ly
By all means update the section. But I don't like the wording "Some linguists do not consider a shared etymology as disallowing a suppletive relationship." That sounds as though there was an alternative view of the same concept. The point is that these linguists are using the same term for a fundamentally different type of concept. Make that clear. What is still not clear to me, though, is how these synchronic people divide strong and weak. If weak means everything which diachronic linguists would exclude, but the new approach would include, then it won't be hard to find a modus vivendi without too much confusion. But if weak means everything which shares phonological elements (i.e. including person:people but excluding suis:être) then we have to be very careful to keep separate discussions of diachronic and synchronic studies. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 23:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Those are very useful quotes which should certainly go into the article. They still don't answer my question, however, and it is crucial here, since it decides whether the diachronic and synchronic uses are complimentary perspectives on the same issue, or mutually exclusive uses of terminology which cannot both appear in the same discussion without great confusion. The shape of our article will depend on that. I suspect the latter, and if so, I imagine the way we will have to go is to divide the article into two main sections, the first on philology, the second on synchronic morphology. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 20:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Good start, reads well. I like the last sentence - that's part of the point - we can't pin this down, though we have more actual sources for synchronic than for dichronic use, but the diachronic use is so fixed that there is no controversy. I think you have understood "weak" suppletion differently from me, but you might well be right. Better try to source that precisely. What I would then like to see, as a short third section, is something on how the two interrelate, whether they are just different perspectives or whether they really clash. But if no-one has published on that, it might be OR, in which case we just have to live with the uncertainty. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 21:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
These pronunciation guides appear to be a confusing combination of IPA and intuitive English transliteration... /'luchshij/nai'luchshij/ /'hudshij/nai'hudshij/
I've edited them a bit so that they conform better to IPA but I'm not really an expert in this domain. Kasnie ( talk) 03:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
This section of Examples has been bodged, and will need to be fixed. Five sources are numbered within the table, but only four are listed underneath. In the table French "allai" is given as "3 or 4", and Spanish "fui" as "5", but in the list #4 is Latin "fui", which clearly applies to Spanish "fui" not "allai", and there is no list #5. It looks like there have been two different models of sources, and one has been changed to the other but not completely - probably from five to four, the older #4 being removed and #5 moved up.
If "allai" does not come from "ambulare" it may come from the same source as Italian "andare" according to Wiktionary - namely a combination of "vadere" and "aditare". Altho where the N comes from is still a mystery. But I would have thought the French forms with their L's are much more certain derivations from "ambulare" than Spanish "andar" or Italian "andare/andrò/andai etc.". There is no accounting for the ND there.
But it might help to find some linguistics sources making it all clear? 86.0.169.202 ( talk) 12:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Note 4 of the table confuses the Latin "perfect" with English "perfective" constructions, which also exist in the languages referred to in this note. For instance "Have you been to France?" would be "Ha estat a França?" in Catalan and ¿Ha estado en Francia?" which are periphrastic constructions based on reflexes of a conjugated form of the Latin verb "habere" and the perfect participle of "stare" and therefore would bear no relation to "esse" at all. It also seems to state that English has no simple present, which is simply false, and this would also seem to imply that the preterite is a present tense form, which it is not. An example from Spanish: "Yo fui a Francia" translates into English as "I went to France" (which also carries the "perfect" implication, i.e., on vacation and now I'm back). The table also makes no mention of the "imperfect past" in these languages which is sometimes based on a suppletive stem from a different Latin verb (for instance Catalan "anava, anaves . . .," also see discussion of the Italian "andare" and Spanish "andar" above), and sometimes not (for instance Spanish "iba, ibas . ." which are direct reflexes of the Latin imperfect of "ire"). Spanish "Yo iba a Francia," could be translated as "I used to go to France." (i.e., habitually, for business reasons). I suggest removing the comparison to English in Note 4 completely, including the imperfect past in the table, and the inclusion of a note pointing out the semantic differences between the preterite and imperfect. Skip Purdy ( talk) 19:41, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't believe the English convention of using people as the plural of person is an example of suppletion in the sense used in this article, since each of those words has the full, regular set of inflectional forms: person, person’s, persons, persons’, people, people’s, peoples, peoples’. Rather, this is an instance of a usage convention and unrelated to inflectional morphology except as it may provide an example of how suppletion occurs. Grosbach ( talk) 23:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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I came to this page to understand why Swedish is the only language I know of that doesn't have an irregular inflection of "good". Instead it has both "god, godare, godast" and "bra, bättre, bäst". However, the article seems to say it isn't so. Not being native Swedish I don't wan to edit, but surely "god, bättre, bäst" is not correct/common Swedish?
I could use some information on the origins of the various forms of aller/ir/andare from a Latin scholar. -- user:Montrealais
Latin verb ferre, to bring, carry has the principal parts fero, ferre, tuli, latum, meaning Is this irregular verb a result of suppletion in a precursor language? Any Latin scholars care to comment?
Most domesticated land animals and their meat have a particularly rich set of non-cognate terms depending on age, sex, and castration. For instance: sheep, ram, ewe, wether, lamb, mutton. Do these numerous terms come under the category of suppletion? If not, where do they go? I am keen to see a table of such words, and create one if it doesn't exist, as it is a particularly striking feature of the English language. Is this phenomenon seen in other languages?
"He has been to France" is not a suppletion but a standard use of the verb "be" with an adjective phrase. Movement is implied by the dative quality of "to France" as in "He got to the final level in record-breaking time" or "I was already to Chapter 12 when he started reading." "Go" is not a required element.
I have removed the following section:
I don't think "suppletive" is being used in the same way here. (I may be misinterpreting the above paragraph: in which case, by all means reinstate it, but try to make it clearer: I don't see how it qualifies as "suppletion" in the sense used in the article.) "Suppletion" can be defined:
Suppletion may be regarded as an extreme kind of internal change, in which the entire base—not merely a part of it—is replaced by another
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help){{
cite book}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help)In traditional terms, the following types of highly irregular items in the lexical categories are said to be "suppletive."
- Verbs: go/went; be/are; Latin ferre 'to bring' / tuli 'brought' / latus 'brought'
- Nouns: person/people
- Adjectives: good/better/well
Ordinary irregular variants such as stand/stood; catch/caught; woman/women are not generally considered suppletive.
Suppletion is defined as the phenomenon whereby regular semantic relations are encoded by unpredictable formal patterns. Cases where the paradigmatically related forms share some phonological material are examples of weak suppletion, as in English buy versus bought, while cases with no shared phonological material are instances of strong suppletion, as in English go versus went.
{{
cite book}}
: More than one of |pages=
and |page=
specified (
help){{
cite web}}
: |first=
missing |last=
(
help); |pages=
has extra text (
help); Missing pipe in: |first=
(
help)The Natural Scale of Morphotactic Transparency illustrates the hierarchy in which morphological and phonological rules cause some morphemes to be more transparent than others. The scale is: Total Transparency > Resyllabification > Phonological Rules > Morphological Rules > Weak Suppletion > Strong Suppletion.
Someone with access to the following might fill this in better:
{{
cite journal}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help){{
cite journal}}
: |pages=
has extra text (
help)Probably the article should distinguish between the broad/weak and narrow/strong senses, but I think it should concentrate on the latter. jnestorius( talk) 21:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
The column labeled "Comparative/Superlative" contains mixed information, so that it is not clear (to one, like me, who is unfamiliar with these languages) whether the words in the rows for Romance languages are comparatives or superlatives. I suspect someone expanded an existing table without amending the label or the structure. Perhaps this column should be broken into two, yes? fuper ( talk) 15:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Persian forms should be here too: khub, behtar, behtarin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.65.94.223 ( talk) 17:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, despite what I said about duine/daoine over at Talk:Weak suppletion, I'm commenting it out here because I can't find sources that confirm that the version I heard (that "duine" comes from *ghdhm-yo- from *ghdhem- "earth", while "daoine" comes from *dhewenyo- from *dhew- "die") is in fact the standard view. I believe it is the standard view, but in the sources available to me at the moment, all I can find is (1) people deriving "duine" from *ghdhm-yo- with no mention of daoine, (2) people deriving "duine" from *ghdhm-yo- and daoine from *ghdhoim-o- (cf. Latin hūmānus < *(dh)ghoim-), and (3) people deriving duine from zero grade *du-n-yo- and daoine from e-grade *deu-enyo-. But I can't find a source that comes and and says directly what I learned in graduate school, name that for all their surface similarity, the two forms are etymologically unrelated. — An gr 18:11, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
Isn't "irregular" simply a pedagogical term and not a linguistic one? We say French etre, aller are "irregular" because they do not follow normal conjugation patterns. But aren't etre-suis suppletive? According to the defintion given under this heading one could never predict suis from etre, or "am" from "be" for that matter--making these traditionally suppletive forms "irregular." I would recommend instead something along the lines of
"The term 'irregular' is used in language learning to suggest that a given form or paradigm does not follow a usual pattern or rule, such as the conjugation of "to be" in English or "aller" in French. The term 'suppletion' is a linguistic notion that refers to pairs of words that have the same basic meaning but are phonetically distinct--such as "be" ~ "am." Whether or not the historical origins of the words in such pairs is critical to the notion of suppletion is a subject of current inquiry in linguistics." 3.262ly ( talk) 18:29, 3 July 2008 (UTC)3.262ly
By all means update the section. But I don't like the wording "Some linguists do not consider a shared etymology as disallowing a suppletive relationship." That sounds as though there was an alternative view of the same concept. The point is that these linguists are using the same term for a fundamentally different type of concept. Make that clear. What is still not clear to me, though, is how these synchronic people divide strong and weak. If weak means everything which diachronic linguists would exclude, but the new approach would include, then it won't be hard to find a modus vivendi without too much confusion. But if weak means everything which shares phonological elements (i.e. including person:people but excluding suis:être) then we have to be very careful to keep separate discussions of diachronic and synchronic studies. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 23:00, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Those are very useful quotes which should certainly go into the article. They still don't answer my question, however, and it is crucial here, since it decides whether the diachronic and synchronic uses are complimentary perspectives on the same issue, or mutually exclusive uses of terminology which cannot both appear in the same discussion without great confusion. The shape of our article will depend on that. I suspect the latter, and if so, I imagine the way we will have to go is to divide the article into two main sections, the first on philology, the second on synchronic morphology. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 20:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
Good start, reads well. I like the last sentence - that's part of the point - we can't pin this down, though we have more actual sources for synchronic than for dichronic use, but the diachronic use is so fixed that there is no controversy. I think you have understood "weak" suppletion differently from me, but you might well be right. Better try to source that precisely. What I would then like to see, as a short third section, is something on how the two interrelate, whether they are just different perspectives or whether they really clash. But if no-one has published on that, it might be OR, in which case we just have to live with the uncertainty. -- Doric Loon ( talk) 21:27, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
These pronunciation guides appear to be a confusing combination of IPA and intuitive English transliteration... /'luchshij/nai'luchshij/ /'hudshij/nai'hudshij/
I've edited them a bit so that they conform better to IPA but I'm not really an expert in this domain. Kasnie ( talk) 03:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
This section of Examples has been bodged, and will need to be fixed. Five sources are numbered within the table, but only four are listed underneath. In the table French "allai" is given as "3 or 4", and Spanish "fui" as "5", but in the list #4 is Latin "fui", which clearly applies to Spanish "fui" not "allai", and there is no list #5. It looks like there have been two different models of sources, and one has been changed to the other but not completely - probably from five to four, the older #4 being removed and #5 moved up.
If "allai" does not come from "ambulare" it may come from the same source as Italian "andare" according to Wiktionary - namely a combination of "vadere" and "aditare". Altho where the N comes from is still a mystery. But I would have thought the French forms with their L's are much more certain derivations from "ambulare" than Spanish "andar" or Italian "andare/andrò/andai etc.". There is no accounting for the ND there.
But it might help to find some linguistics sources making it all clear? 86.0.169.202 ( talk) 12:19, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Note 4 of the table confuses the Latin "perfect" with English "perfective" constructions, which also exist in the languages referred to in this note. For instance "Have you been to France?" would be "Ha estat a França?" in Catalan and ¿Ha estado en Francia?" which are periphrastic constructions based on reflexes of a conjugated form of the Latin verb "habere" and the perfect participle of "stare" and therefore would bear no relation to "esse" at all. It also seems to state that English has no simple present, which is simply false, and this would also seem to imply that the preterite is a present tense form, which it is not. An example from Spanish: "Yo fui a Francia" translates into English as "I went to France" (which also carries the "perfect" implication, i.e., on vacation and now I'm back). The table also makes no mention of the "imperfect past" in these languages which is sometimes based on a suppletive stem from a different Latin verb (for instance Catalan "anava, anaves . . .," also see discussion of the Italian "andare" and Spanish "andar" above), and sometimes not (for instance Spanish "iba, ibas . ." which are direct reflexes of the Latin imperfect of "ire"). Spanish "Yo iba a Francia," could be translated as "I used to go to France." (i.e., habitually, for business reasons). I suggest removing the comparison to English in Note 4 completely, including the imperfect past in the table, and the inclusion of a note pointing out the semantic differences between the preterite and imperfect. Skip Purdy ( talk) 19:41, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't believe the English convention of using people as the plural of person is an example of suppletion in the sense used in this article, since each of those words has the full, regular set of inflectional forms: person, person’s, persons, persons’, people, people’s, peoples, peoples’. Rather, this is an instance of a usage convention and unrelated to inflectional morphology except as it may provide an example of how suppletion occurs. Grosbach ( talk) 23:52, 18 September 2012 (UTC)