This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article mentioned the rising of Brazil as a possible signal that a multipolar world is developing. However, in the last few decades Brazil has consistantly failed to match the global average rate of GDP growth. It's share of the total world GDP has dropped from about 3.5% in 1980 to about 2.5% today. Brazil is declining rather than rising.-- Todd Kloos 02:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
From the lead of this article: "China and India appear to have the greatest potential, amongst all the other nations, of achieving superpower or near-superpower status within the 21st century." There are countless of internationally published articles and books on China being possibly the next superpower, but where are the citations for India? I don't see any genuine superpower references or external links on India for the Wikipedia article: India as an emerging superpower. If someone does not provide credible sources and references, I consider the claim of India having "greatest potential...of achieving superpower or near-superpower status within 21st century" to be original research (in violation of Wikipedia policy) and should be removed/edited immediately. Even EU has more superpower-related sources than India. -- Intsokzen 06:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
the hole discusion is byzantine.it's like arguing if the center of the univers is on earth or on the sun,they are bothe rubish.the term superpower instictivly and rognfuly means some entity that can do every thing they want.that's never existed,you are still under the influence of cold war propaganda.we live a multipollar world with a good deal of regional powers, some local powers and thats it.after the war usa had 50% of worlds production because every body else was destroide, but from the 70-80 the world rebalance it self.real power of america don't go much further than north american continant,every thing further is overextention,burnout is nececary to do what usa is doing curently.ussr too thaut they cauld do as they wich,but the prouf that they did not is that they collapsed sinse they overstreched and ruind them selvs.did any body (even at 91',even the most optimistic) predicted that end?no.they were all suprised.this article is writen by interested historians(not neutral).objectivly usa have a huge external debt,wors per gdp points than argentina,so the more logicall outcome is a collapse wors then argentina.so the article should be about superpower myth.The theorised usa power lise in washington or in ther creditors.I mean that the aparent strenchth of usa is due to ther abyssal deficits,it's the flat earth theory of oure time(no,you don't vote truth).It's like superman,superpower it's sciencefiction.-- Ruber chiken 02:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
to simplistic.it don't take in too acount that somebody may have more than what's usfull.acording to the critirion the biger the beter.would the usa be beter of if say 40% of gdp was going in the militairy.if not which one?10%?1%.is the 12 other contryies armies to small OR the usa army to big?the ideal militairy spending is it 5%? less?more?-- Ruber chiken 02:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Keep em short and snappy please, kids. There's an article for em for a reason! Trip: The Light Fantastic 17:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The EU only a potential superpower??? The EU has already a larger GDP that the US and has its member nations hold vast control over the world's natural and economic resources. Take the example of aluminum cans. A few years ago, aluminum cans were the most popular soda conatiner in the US and around the world. But due to the legislation of EU memeber states, plastic bottles have been replacing aluminum cans, not only in the EU but worldwide including right here in the US. One needs to look beyond military power, the EU's economy and the huge conglomerations heaquatered in EU member states have as much control over the fate of the world's resources as the US and its coperations. Concerning, the military, China, the US, the EU all have enough gunpower to destroy manking, so what's the use in counting! It is the control over resources that counts and here the total GDP is the best indicator. Signature brendel 19:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's, as a basis for argument, divide superpower status into four heads: cultural, military, diplomatic, and economic.
Cultural The states of Europe, like all nations these days, are not cultural islands cut off from all outside influence. In terms of language, the Arts etc there has always been cultural interchange. This does not mean that there is any sort of unified European culture. The nations have no real cultural homogenity - setting aside the spread of English as the global language and the attraction to Hollywood. In Northern Europe especially, there is little concept of being a 'European'.
Can we really say that Europe as a whole has contributed to the culture of Australia etc? It strikes me that these nations bear the overwhelming imprint of British culture more than any (admitting the case of France in Canada, and the influence of immigration on the US).
Military Three countries in the EU have decent militaries, the UK and France, with Germany a distant third. As far as the rest of Europe goes they are, with respect, bit players. I made the point above re. military integration. There simply isn't any real EU wide military cooperation. Yes they cooperate through NATO, but that is a different institution run along different lines.
The US and UK are integrated to a tremendous extent, conducting regular joint exercises, procuring the same (or interoperable) equipment such as the JSF fighter, and the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers. The goal for each of these was to have interoperability with US assets, not French or German (aside from common NATO standards).
Diplomatic The example of Iraq will be sufficiently well known to all of us to need repetition here. On the other hand we have the EU3 negotiating with Iran, and EU involvement in the Israel/Palestinian question. This is an area in some flux, however I think that we are justified in drawing the conclusion that this sort of EU front is the exception rather than the rule. Most foreign relations are still conducted as individual nations, especially with the idea of an EU Diplomatic Service having been rejected.
Economic This has been accepted as the main ground for considering the EU as a potential superpower. I won't discuss this much further other than to point out that despite EU company legislation, almost all companies remain organised along national lines. Due to the efforts of the EU, there is a lot of common regulation between member states, but they aren't organised at a European level.
The EU is not regarded as a superpower by international opinion. Do I say that this may not change? Certainly not, a changing political consensus could lead to further, faster integration, turning the EU into something more unified. But this is not the present case, and it is the present case with which we are concerned. A superpower arises through a synthesis of elements, economic power alone is not enough. It can only be called power if there is the intention to use it to pursue goals, something which the EU lacks. In fact there isn't even agreement between member states as to what the EU should be - economic bloc, or unified nation state?
Aside from these arguments however, I really must point out one thing that this page lacks - any references at all. We do not have any sort of academic basis cited for the comparisions we are making between our superpower and potential superpowers. Personally I don't see the point in doing too much work here until this situation is resolved; the page simply becomes more and more OR. I don't have access to any potential sources, do any of you?
Xdamr 13:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"While there is some controversy over the EU being a superpower or not, its sheer gross domestic product, control over the world's resources as well as cultural influence over the world set it apart from China, India and the US. Despite the fact that the EU is not a country and therefore not a superpower in the same sense as the United States whose unformed governement policy gives it unrivaled diplomatic and military power, its is one of the worlds most powerful unions. European culture has a profound imapct on the world, whether it be fashion, music, entertainment, or automobiles. With a GDP of over twelve trillion US dollars the EU and its corperations and investors have imense power over the world economy and the global allocation of resources."
How is that POV?
Have you read the US section, if so you will notice that I took many of the sentences that also apply for the EU and merely switched "US" for "EU" (that's why the spelling mistake below. Please tell me the parts that are POV and I'll fix them, than put up the tag.
Signature
brendel 06:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"Right now most say that only the US is a superpower".So what,peopol beleav in many craps,the superpower thing is no exeption. We don't vote for truth. Yes on paper eu looks very divided, but in practice since they share a lot of interests and are too unterdependent it's not the case. You expect what? what it will get unifide over night? Yesterday it was not even a regional power an today it's a superpower, a quantum leep. It's the classical border problem, at wich point, it would be suffishantly unified according to you, and the day they do, the unification hapend that day, or was spred on many decades? The helvetic confederation is 800 years old, you can say that today it's a federation, but at wich point did the swich hapened? Your are fooled because there are 25 presidents and not 1. For the militairy, as brendel said, they both have the capasity to destroy the planet several times, so counting is usless.-- Ruber chiken 16:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is The European Union considered a superpower canidate and the Commonwealth Of Nations and The League of Arab States,and The CIS are not? Dudtz 6/8/06 9:10 PM EST
Because this organisations aren't serious unions.They are talking shops.-- Ruber chiken 17:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The eu is not a nation!! It is made up of weak and powerful countries. If the eu is going to be a superpower then the UN is also. I believe the eu is a strong union but that is all [stanley]
In the main section on the European Union, a bullet point under "Economic and Financial Factors" read:
I changed this to read:
This was done for the following reasons:
1. The bullet point intended to refer to the infrastructure of the EU, not of the United States.
2. To correct a sentence fragment and improve readability.
--
Mrpaco 06:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your corrections! That was my mistake, I'm sorry. Regards, Signature brendel 06:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Usa has abysal external debt.It's because of ther great economy,or is the abysal deficits that make it look so good?The power of the usa belogns to how,americans or foren bankers and investors?-- Ruber chiken 15:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Since my post is ignored ,i just chage the tag,from pov,tawrds totaly disputed.-- Ruber chiken 04:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, our debate over the EUs status as a superpower aside. Shouldn't we be using the Template talk:Cite web for our sources. I have been using it on Passenger vehicles in the United States if you'd like to see an example of it being used in article. Using this template provides, in my opinion, for a much clearer overview of references and automatically keeps them in order. As I get around to it, I'll convert the current reference into using this template. Thanks. Signature brendel 19:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
maby your rafaring to my ugly way of references and links.It's just my fault.Do as you said.-- Ruber chiken 19:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
No, no. That's not what I am referring to. Most Wikipedia articles cite their sources using {{ref|123} } and {{note|123} }. A better to reference is using the template I mentioned above. FYI: Thank you for the reference articles you have provided. Signature brendel 20:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
This is due to poverty(hi inequalities in american incoms) and poor education(whorst beteen the developed contryes).I's a whell undestould fact that poverty and poor education incrises fertility(statisticly proven).The oposite is olso thrue.No exeption what so evar,USA aren't an exeption of the rule.Canada has the most inflou of imigrants per capita,and even they,the'll experience population decline.This point shose that someting wrong in the usa,not that the rest of the developed world is laking behind.
The EU contryes contribute more.EU is a de facto political entity
-- Ruber chiken 19:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
This page is not about morally approving or disapproving policies. This page is about power in the world. Sijo Ripa 21:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The impotance of gdp per capital is that it's shose that the us cant go hire.It's alredy at 110%.On contrast europe have more or less same gdp with the usa,but in a more relaxte way(they are 450million).The gdp is just a statistic,how do you acoun't overworke in it?By been over worked is this streghthens or weekens americans?I mean,is the quality and sustanibility that is shone.I'm saying gdp must be interprted,not just taken as is.we compare someon hou is doing 110% with someone at 80%,don't you think that this have an influance in the real power compareson,and so in the superpower debate.-- Ruber chiken 21:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Low rates of imigration?Every time EU expands, in what category do you put that?and when turkey joines(70 million,fertility 2.5 or something).europeans can increas ther working time,americans can't.Don't forget that children have a cost,europeans have less but well educated children,americans on the other hand are poorly educated(acording to wikipedia),it's seems to me that americans is more quantity than quality.you argue if it's sustainable.if you consider that resources aren't infite,and that india and china at americans comsoption rates would need several planetes.In the perspective of Hubbert peak theory,the cost of low fertility don't seems so bad,a decreas in population dencity have advantages.America hi population growth is due to poverty,how you compare that cost compared with the cost of low fertility.integration of immigrantes don't seem to mee as good as it is said,for example blacks are still the poorer of americans,if integration was as good as advertised then it schouldn't be any corelation.What gerbrendel has too say on that,he lives in canada so i'm gasing that he nows something on the isue.For the long run how do you acomodate infinite population growrh on the same(or depleating) resources?That's clearly not sustainable.for european welfare i guess that in combination with increas in productivity,benefits from population decline(for example prices in housing are expected to fall),lesser cost for resing educated children(leser children i mean),contribution from the now unemployed.The increas in welfare cost should be manageble at relative lower sacrifices(but at hier finacial cost) than expected-- Ruber chiken 23:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
(1)what makes you thik that EU will be 27 at 2050,they wher 6 50 years ago,yes the 15 will probably ther population schrink.But an EU inlargment isn't something betewn imigration and natural growth,so in a certain pov the population of the EU 27 will schrink but in an other pov EU will not,due to elargments.(2)if you make more children is statisticly probable that your pore or poorly educated,this is thrue for immigrants and for natives.(3)infinite population growth is not an option.Economist beleave that the law of the market is as good as a law of physics,and think that the market will solve apsolutly everithing.Physics say that you can't drain the planette endlessly.Immigration should(in my view) just damper the poepulation dekline.just see india and china,i wonder wher are they going to find all the natural resources and energy to fuel ther groth(it's progected that oil will be exansted in 2050),how a billion peopol can on the same time feed it self and have imperial views.You whant economic groth, up to the stratosphere or something,The only isue is if technicly we can sustain all the old without without demanding to much sacrifices from the youth.The european way of groth that i advocate is ,simply to enlarge for ofseting apsolute decline(russia,turkiey or what evar,we are talking for 50 years spam)."You state that Europe can increase its productivity and the US can't"that's not what i meant,american's cant increase ther houres of work,prodictivity is determined by technology and is rufly the same in both.Europeans even if they can't increas ther productivity per houre they, they still can increse ther houres of work."less workers and much higher taxes will only harm the economy",that's neoliberalism theory(tax is evil,oooouuu),the goverments are not going to swolow the tax, they going to spend them,the isue of less workers,is a technical isue,not economic.on top of that europe(and japan) has commercial exedents(hundred of billion or someting,i think),if they are redust to zero it's an equivallent increas in level of life,exedents mean in practice that you work but don't consume.(4)For black americans i mean, that despite the fact that they are american's for centuries ,they still are very poor(not whell integrated for me)."assimilate quite well" but mistiriously after 3 centuries black are still the poorer of americans???"gangsta-culture"i don't now what this mean,but it's sound to me like a escape goat theory,so that the goverment don't recongnise his responsability on the isue."nation, Flanders"and from when flanders it's a nation,it's a buch of grede littel peopol that find normal to not chare with it's poor nabors.(i'm from brussel,haha).I didn't say that rasism was inexistant in europe, i questioned the verasity of the american melting pot,how come than a 3 century inequality still persists?(5)with uneducated peopol you gate presidents like buch,are you schure that they are beter off compared with a situation of less many for recherch.And in the final,most of them don't seems to be benefiting from all this,how is it possible that a democracy produce such a system.I hope that you can rede it-- Ruber chiken 03:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
(1) A shrinking and aging population. Average age will remain about 37 in the US and will become 55 (!) in the EU in 2050. (2) Poverty can cause more children, but the US does not cause the poverty which causes the children. On the contrary, the US enriches immigrants. (3) Doom scenario's about population growth are not backed up by facts. Already since the '60s these scenario's are undermined by real world evolutions. (4) Productivity is a lot higher in the US and is that's not only determined by better technology but also by more human capital. (5) An aging and a shrinking population will not cause lower growth? That's really funny. You think that less workers, higher taxes and higher (and inefficient) spending in non-productive sectors won't slow growth? You think that when Italy's population shrinks by 10 million, their economy won't shrink? (6) Flemings constitute a nation, but not a state. That's a difference. And I find your comment quite racist and offensive. You said: "it's a buch of grede littel peopol that find normal to not chare with it's poor nabors." While you forget that every Fleming already gives two centuries money for "charity" to French speakers in Belgium and that the ammount is currently 2000 euro (2500 dollar)/person every year. (or 8000 euro (10 000 dollar) for an average family.) A little bit respect and a little bit gratitude are appropriate. (7) Higher education and more research do mean more power. There are few variables so directly linked with durable higher economic growth, and with higher military power than technological innovation. Sijo Ripa 18:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
(1)Yes thet true,but they will be 400-450(i think),europe is alredy overpopulate,you have keep in mind that a sustanable growth must not destroy the environment,it's not just to pleas the ecologists,it is importatnt to not destroy our invironment(for our well beening)(2)"US does not cause the poverty which causes the children" no,the poverty is determined by goverment policy,the poore have to compite with the rich,if they are not helped by the goverment they will remaine poor(example black in america since 300 years)."the US enriches immigrants" that's because of grate inaquality,in the us you tend to be ither very rich,ither very poor,your looking only on the whiners.(3)"Doom scenario's about population growth are not backed up by facts"this in phycology has a name, i don't no what it was,because it didn't hapen yet,thus it will never hapen,it's titanic mantality(you see what i mean).In the 60's whe were 3billion(i think) and whith plenty of fossil fuel,in 2050we would be 9 billion,petroleum and natural gas whould be exausted,agriculture need vast amount of energy for the machines,pesticedes and fertilisers,no i don't beleav that we will have a famine,but eating is not an opsion,do you realy what to get your self in such an adventure.(4)thers productivity per houre and productivity per person,productivity per person is greater in the us because they work more,from what i now productivity per houre is not comparable direcly,the indistrial base has shrunk in the us faster then in europe(how's doing belooming deficits),but the productivity per hour is lower in the indestry than the rest of the economy(that's why they tend to delocalise in the first place),so mechanicly the productivity per houre increases.Human capital?they are poorly educated and electes buch for president,are you shure that the average american is hire than the average european?(5)it's the percatita income that's important,the economy will chrink, but the population too will schrink.If the declining growth is at the same spead than the decling population you don't see the diference.The trick is that the resulting burden on the workers it don't get too hi.combining hier productivity(technology),imigration,less children(intill they get 20 year old,they just consume,if they go to the university it's wors),less premature deaths(we are talking about 2050!!);less expensive housing(that's reduses the gdp,but actually increasses prosperity) and yes increas in work time(presumably,resonable).you don't have to forget that gdp is a statistic that shows production,it' don't say any thing about the efficiency of the consomption(for example if you are stuck in the trafick and burn fuell,that's been added in the gdp,does it make you feal beter by been stuck in trafick).Why "and inefficient",you consider it inefichient spending to care for your parents?yes i indestand you mean productive,but if the goal of the many spend is to care for the population of the state,why consider the production of cars effiscient,and the production of walfare inafiscient,in both cases thers demand for it,i caul ineffiscient coruption,aireports in the midle of the woods,accidents,hospitals that was naver been used because of asbestos(ammiante),well you see.(6)I didn't understant whel,you mean that from when the economic situation in the contry inverted(+-70),flanders alredy gave more than what was given for the rest of belgiun history fom the south(coal mines).If flanders is realy a nation than whay remember it now that the south has economic problems,you have to admite that it don't seem to a coinsidence.In checkoslovakia agen the rich cheks fluch the poor slovaks,in padania(northen italy) the clame is even more suspishus since the teritory is very rich(compared to the rest) but has the same language ,and no particular historic reason.I caul this greed,what is it hen,if it's not it?By the way they are not going to go very far if they sessed,they simply be federal states in federal europe,it's seems to me hard labor for no gaine.WE ARE NOT BEGARS,we are trited like begars,lazy,stuped and i don't now what else,beening poor takes aout several years of average life spam,if we are realy poor aout of laziness,how do you explane that kind of diference?and by the way it's 3%(the 2000/year) of income of flemmich,this figure is in the european norm of trans regional subsidies(i mean within a singel state). (7)"Higher education" the americans are poorly educated acording to wikipedia,this don't have any concequence in the quality of ther dessisions?"more research" agen this is not that simpel,allot of ther spendings are for militairy research,what the use of a neutron bombe in a civilian aplication?thers not much aplication,suposing that it's no secret of defence.A simpel exampel is boing, you could say that with all the zillions of the american militairy budget,and all the hitech warplanes they should have blown away airbus,quite the oposite.You have to be careful when reeding statistics,statistics have to be interprted corectly.When your making investments,you have to balance them,or something somewhere might get atrophide.For example in formula1,the technicians have to take dessisions,on the degres of the fine,the tires,reservoir of fuel,number of stops,mecanical parts and so one.If you fill up the reservoir your making lesser stops but you are to havy,if you put in less fuel you have to make more stops.You see what i mean, you have to be balanced betewn the two in order to finich first(what's counts).Many things don't show up in a statistic like gdp(for example the advanteges of leisure) for example,it's not just a mater of moral,it's a mater of effisciency,and what your objectives are.hmm i wonder when i'll tired you up.-- Ruber chiken 21:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Eek. Where did all this come from? I wouldn't say that the EU was a superpower... just yet. Can't we merge the EU superpower article into the potential one? Trip: The Light Fantastic 18:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
So what to do? Should we simply write on the article that the EU may, or may not fall into the category of superpower and this is a decision we feel the Wikipedia community cannot make? Trip: The Light Fantastic 19:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
50% of american(i think) beleav in ufos,there are numerus religions contradicting them selves ,so on should be carefull with sources.The authority sourses claim that wikipedia is a bunch of poorly reeten articles by kidies,and thats not a serious thin,it will probably evolve to oblivion.Sourses aren't everything,they ofteh contradict them selves
"While there is some controversy over the EU being a superpower or not"it don't attempt to determine the thruth. An argument for EU unity,is that is a self orginizing(reed this Self organization is umportant,espacially the human society section) system,this systems exist in physics,chemistry,biology and even in human societys(and betewn contrys).It is a system of Cellular automaton(contris,yes i now the term hears barbar),the contrys(automata) are interacting with sertain rulles(self preservation),and in a result a orginized behavior emerges despite the fact that thers no central coorcetiv power. Conway's Game of Life,ilustrates whel on very simpel model how this princepel works.historic examples of this is the Hanseatic League or the Old Swiss Confederacy.bothe wherent contrys,and dispite this they misteriously got togeuther and impose them selvs.-- Ruber chiken 01:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It is no doubt that the US can defeat any nation one on one without any use of nukes. But if the American poeple does not support the war then it might as well be lost.
In that sence.USA lacks too of references that is a superpower.In the article ,poepol are saing,and the CIA is saing,What about academic stuf prouving that usa is a superpower.Plus the critiria are not very precise to begin with.When you gate in to detail about usa real situation,it's a lot chakyer then it apiers.-- Ruber chiken 04:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
not clearly defined|may differ between sources|interpreted That don't sound very academic.So thers no reson to stuck closly to that particular definition.The EU is regarded in wikipedia as,an sus genesis structure,so you can't claim that it should be conssider as a bunch of independed states.An expression of opinion does not cease to be an expression of opinion simply because it is sourced.Wikipedia is not a brain dead reporter of sources.This post is too long.Respond to to EU vs USA 2-- Ruber chiken 08:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The term ... was coined in the book The Superpowers, written by William Thornton Rickert Fox, an American foreign policy professor at the Columbia University in 1943. reference out of date "1943,in the midel of the war,so not credible even at his time.He also says that great britain and ussr are superpowers.There are several souces that argue,that the usa is not any more a superpower.there may well be no academic criteria well that's ruther a problem in the first place.If they aren't whell established critiria,then it's imposible to have any credible academique source that sayes that EU is a superpower(even if it's explicit sayr so),but then all the sources on usa superpower status fall in the same category.Since we whant to have an article we need some kind of concessus,of what we are whriting about.What i find for the moment is simply,investigate the tow in the same maner.your saying not simply journalistic pieces and is often said in the media that the US,i am confused.-- Ruber chiken 18:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for ,cursucuiting my post,and not replying to it.The problemme is that your are not going to find any serious references on the USA.Then what deleat everithing?And what about the clayms that thers no superpower what soever?-- Ruber chiken 20:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
"fail to give consideration to Northern and Eastern Europe, whose views differ substantially from those of the Franco-German axis."How do you back this up?-- Ruber chiken 20:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
reed this Groupthink,tell me your thauts.-- Ruber chiken 20:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
A common now,you can't be serious.The origniator of the term,is a source from 1943.Don't seem to you a litul bit rusty.In the midel of the war,what did you expect that he's going to say.I 'm regecting that source all together,is out of date,63 years old.You can not be serious.A copel of years more and it will be public domain.Plus the EU didn't existed at this time.The only reason the source stais is for the "origniator of the term" thing.What about today."Additions or subtractions from this list require sources. Common knowledge tells us" you aren't contradicting your self?-- Ruber chiken 22:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
i'm claming that this source is out of date.Even the USA need new sources.Many things have changed in 63 years.I claim that EU and USA souces are equaly bad.The 1943 source didn't gave a chance to the EU,for the simpel reason it didn't existed then.So puting the EU in is justified.The same quantity of wikipedia rules where briched in both cases.-- Ruber chiken 22:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The [Hanseatic League] was clearly no contry but was a very strong regional power.The helvetic confederation forced the emperor to accepted it's cessecion.The german confederation was no talking shop like the UN.For what reson the EU have to be treated diferently from the auther 3 things.-- Ruber chiken 04:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Whoever was editing this page crappily should probably stop, it makes Wiki look bad having basic words spelt wrong and commas placed wrong.
you probably refering to me.Spelling is esaly fixed.-- Ruber chiken 13:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Controversy set aside,this article lacks critisism on the usa(and EU) weaknesses.It should be put on separet paragraphs.Every thing it's not rosy,thers a lot of litterature on weaknesses but hear is very low.-- Ruber chiken 23:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
the wew referces, at the bottom where done a littel bit in a hury, and sloply,titels may not corespond to content-- Ruber chiken 05:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Ruber, I appreciate your views, but this is the equation in international relations. NOONE can deny the FACT that the United States is a superpower, the United States is singlehandedly better than any other nation in every field. So that's solved, you can't get rid of the United States. Now, the European Union is simply not close enough to a nation to be a superpower. The individual member states still make their own decisions, still send their troops to places where the entire EU is not sending them. The European Union is an emerging superpower because it is NOT UNITED. Surely you can see how illogical it is to simply add up the number of troops in each of the member states and say this is the EU Military. This article is misleading to the readers of Wikipedia. If you want sources, do a simply google search "European Union superpower" and you get lots of sites saying the European Union will be the next superpower, then do "USA Superpower" or "United States superpower" and you get only results that put the United States as the current superpower. Don't use Wikipedia Policy to support falsehoods. A POV Tag is not enough for such a misconception. Nobleeagle (Talk) 08:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"NOONE can deny the FACT that the United States is a superpower"is POV,add references.singlehandedly better,this is not thrue,she is overboroued.close enough to a nation yes this is thrue,to be a superpower this is not thrue.E=mc2 so earth is flat.In theory they make ther own decisions,but they can't aforde it.They have to many common intersts.The article is misliding about the posission of usa in the world-- Ruber chiken 15:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is double standart.The usa is based on media opinions not academic source.Deleting bothe is not an option,you don't have an article then.So EU has it place here.-- Ruber chiken 15:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Verifiability wins every time, no matter how sure we are in our own mind that we are right this aplys for you too.-- Ruber chiken 15:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a 63 year old source,riten in the midel of world war 2.This isn't todays source,this is archeological finding.Find a todays source or deleat both.-- Ruber chiken 16:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is just POV,find reputable source-- Ruber chiken 16:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The cold war section wasn't larger?-- Ruber chiken 16:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Since thers no referces for usa,then it too have to go.An auther compromice is a section for EU like you said.But if you folow the discussion they will say that you don't have references for that(forgeting that usa too has none),and that EU is no contry and so it can't con't.Same thig in the regional power article.-- Ruber chiken 17:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You don't understany,they say EU is not a contry,period.It's an international organization like the UN.It's not a nation state.-- Ruber chiken 17:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
They using this as a excuse to deleated.They consider all the rest irelevant.The EU could have benn a billion peopol with 50% of worlds gdp,they couldn't care less,a gain they would say EU=UN,so we deleate.You understand now,they don't even see in to it-- Ruber chiken 18:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You can put your source.But the text is disputed.See multipolar world section-- Ruber chiken 18:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
No,i'm not an hypocrite,thers hi tension on this talk page.-- Ruber chiken 18:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"You can put your source"? If I can put my source, why you keep removing then? Once again, what WW3? 219.79.166.20 18:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
World war 3.Because you also chaged the text,thats why.In multipolar world it is disputed.-- Ruber chiken 18:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Your too specific.-- Ruber chiken 19:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
WW3,i mean that theres a dispute,reed a bit the talk page.This is the hole dispute,it is argued that this is public opinion,not academic reserche.The only academic source available is 63 years old.In a multipolar world,by definition,thers no superpower at all.-- Ruber chiken 19:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
concidered-->Is.For me this is a change of mening.Vandalism-like edits?Vandalism would be,if i had chaged it to,USA is a banana,Thats vandalism.We have a dispute,thats all,i'm not peaking to you,i didn't tuch your auther edit(if you asume that i didn't see it),your suposed to asume good faith,on riten text is easy too misanderstand peopol.Your report is prematured.You ignored the big sings.The debate is alredy heaten as it is.-- Ruber chiken 19:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
In the multipolar section,there are 7.-- Ruber chiken 20:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
oups i think the last 2 are the same.-- Ruber chiken 21:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Everyone, this is getting out of hand. Don't turn this into a revert war. As the main editor of this article and the European Union http://tools.wikimedia.de/~tim/counter/?page=Superpower http://tools.wikimedia.de/~tim/counter/?page=European_Union_as_an_emerging_superpower article, and a proud European Federalist, I have always tried to balance my views on the EU with the needs of Wikipedia.
The trouble is coming with no compromise: Signature mentioned an interesting compromise above, setting the EU apart from China and India may be a good idea. I mean look at the facts, according to the CIA world factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ee.html:
Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) Top Five
1 United States $ 12,360,000,000,000 2005 est. 2 European Union $ 12,180,000,000,000 2005 est. 3 China $ 8,859,000,000,000 2005 est. 4 Japan $ 4,018,000,000,000 2005 est. 5 India $ 3,611,000,000,000 2005 est
- The US and EU are far away the most powerful here. China is catching up as it emerges as a superpower, but its breakneck growth speed still hasn't got it even close to the other two. This is the hallmarks of a superpower in both the EU and US.
Electricity consumption Top Five
1 United States 3,656,000,000,000 2003 2 European Union 2,711,000,000,000 2002 est. 3 China 2,170,000,000,000 2004 5 Japan 946,300,000,000 2003
- Might sound strange, but is a good indication of a superpower. Look at the US, EU and China's consumption compared to their nearest rivals!
Oil consumption Top Five
1 United States 20,030,000 2003 est. 2 European Union 14,590,000 2001 3 China 6,391,000 2004
- Again a good indicator. Look at the US and EU's consumption. Shows that other nations are mainly scrabbling to supply oil to the EU and US's lifestyles. Ask yourself why this is.
Exports Top Five
1 European Union $ 1,318,000,000,000 2004 2 Germany $ 1,016,000,000,000 2005 est. 3 United States $ 927,500,000,000 2005 est. 4 China $ 752,200,000,000 2005 est. 5 Japan $ 550,500,000,000 2005 est.
-Lo and behold, it aint even China. Imagine how scared other countries are that the EU will cut off exports to them? That's power.
Imports Top Five
1 United States $ 1,727,000,000,000 2005 est. 2 European Union $ 1,402,000,000,000 2004 3 Germany $ 801,000,000,000 2005 est. 4 China $ 631,800,000,000 2005 est. 5 United Kingdom $ 483,700,000,000 2005 est.
- Oh, look which two are top again. You know from the Bra Wars how jittery nations get if the EU closes it's borders to them.
Clearly China is rising, but the EU is already there... Some mention needs to be made of this than simply lumping it with the others. Trip: The Light Fantastic 18:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I have some doutes if this will be axepted.The EU is no contry,so fluch it.-- Ruber chiken 19:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's always my favorite rule in Wikipedia, Be Bold! I think the numbers Trip: The Light Fantastic speak for themselves. The EU belongs in its own section in this article as it is now. Regards, Signature brendel 21:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the problem,since EU is no contry,then you don't have the right to add the numbers.Since you don't have the rghit to add the numbers,then you have no case.If you adding the number then is POV.I expecte a revert war.Same thing in the regional power article.In this article we clasifie contries according to geography,not belogning to a particular organization,so EU is not admitable.If you don't concider EU in the regional power system of europe,then the vieud balance of power in the region is extrimly distorted from reality.-- Ruber chiken 21:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Am i so dificult to be read.I mean noble eagel and X*** will destrue your argument by just saying,that it's an international organization like ascean,cis,UN.You understand now their position?For them EU=NAFTA(north american trade thing).
All cites from GlobalCPR should be removed as one cannot trace this website to any person or organization. Intangible 19:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The current version I have reverted to is the version that basically shows the article as it was before inclusion of the European Union. This debate has really made this article hard to work with, so I have filed an RfC on the topic. Please allow for consensus here before reverting my edit to any other version with the EU stated as anything other than a superpower. If you do, I will revert. So: NO REVERSION WITHOUT CONSENSUS FROM NOW ON So I have filed the RfC, please keep conversations neat and clean, the issue of debate here are:
Opinions that have been stated are above, but basically those that oppose the EUs inclusion are using the fact that it is not politically united enough to be considered alongside the US. Nobleeagle (Talk) 06:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
In reviewing this article and the sources cited, I'm finding several things:
Long story short, if you keep the current definition of "superpower" (which based on the sources provided I'd seriously question) the article is fine as is for now, but the world is at a tipping point and may need to be updated in the next few years or so, but not in the way you're thinking. If anything it's China that's the next superpower, not the EU. -- Bobblehead 08:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Very funy,you simply not going to rech a concensus in purpes.So it will be imposible to change,and add auther ideologies then yours.Because you where here earlyer,it don't give you the right to sensor us.Your calls on peopol in Politics related was misleading.The isue was,USA,EU,MULTIPOLAR-- Ruber chiken 15:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Reverting prior to ,the EU and multipolar is equal to sensor chip.The new users are mislead into beleaving that is just an unclusion of the EU at the same status as the usa."that version is relatively worse in terms of quality and style" this is just an excuse,for deleating the holle thing-- Ruber chiken 16:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I have re-read all the posts above and come to one interesting conlcusion. It seems that everybody arguing here except, X***, has stated that giving the EU its own section is a good idea. I would be fine with just sperating the EU from China and India but not putting it under Todays superpower. So here's my compromise, the EU gets a seperate section, not under "Today's superpower" but seperate from China and India. Would that be a good compromise? Signature brendel 16:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
So hopefully this part has reached a consensus.-- Ruber chiken 19:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
He probably sleeping now.what about the multipolar section,he was contesting that?I don't see where.-- Ruber chiken 19:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Thats funy,i was thinking,the same about you.Remamber,we don't vote truth,and even less on concessus.You don't find odd that on a usue like this thers only one POV.Contrary to what you might think i'm a resonable person.You don't find ironic that a noble eagel talks to a ruber chiken.-- Ruber chiken 06:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I have no particular objection to the 'compromise', but this surely wasn't what the entire argument was about? If it was just a minor structural change like this then I, for one, wouldn't have been too bothered; I can readily accept that the economics of the EU place it on a different level from India and China.
Anyway, I'm glad that we are all reconciled.
Xdamr talk 11:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, the argument was about the EU being different from China and India and being a superpower. But since the EU is not a nation I found this to be a good compromise. I wanted the EU listed seperately and in order to reach middle ground I simply abandoned the notion to list the EU in the current superpowers section. I think its a good compromise that will ultimately benefit the reader. Signature brendel 17:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
A common now,how beleaves at thies noncens.It's evident that the usa are gods,and the rest of us degenereted pink babouns,it's obvious,everybody said that,is common sence.So why losing our preshes time in investigating the obvious.The peopol hou say autherways are marginals,they probably geolos,of america.-- Ruber chiken 18:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Heres a pice of advice,that is always thrue.When you triting subjects,where you have litel experience,NEVER trust your instinct,it will be almost certainly wrogn.Corect instinct comes only after expirience.You can both agree,i presume,that you became alot more eficient in your jobs,after expirience,then when you just reed the manual.It's the same phenomenon.Xdamr,trust me,a now beter than you what is academic rigor.-- Ruber chiken 02:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
For anyone else that comes here to comment, I think the question is:
Has the European Union accreud enough state-like characteristics to fulfil the dictionary definition of a superpower?
Dictionary definition:
Superpower: (noun) A powerful and influential state/nation/country [depending where you look], especially a nuclear power that dominates its allies or client states in an international power bloc. http://www.answers.com/superpower&r=67
It'd be helpful if you take an in-depth look at this question and ignore the rest of the problems with the article rather than summing it up in a sentence along with other issues. There's also no point in questioning whether the EU fills all superpower criteria, we've discerned that it and the US are in a league of their own, superpower-style. :P
Thank you for your help. If you want to stick around and help with other sections of the article after you've tried to answer the question, please do. :) Trip: The Light Fantastic 16:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Shit.No this is not the isue for the article.
-- Ruber chiken 16:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I take no stances.I argue to put in both.You argue in favor of one of them.So i'm not taking any desisions about what's corect.I don't see how you can be more neutral then that.-- Ruber chiken 17:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
A superpower is defined as "a state with the first rank in the international system and the ability to influence events and project power on a worldwide scale." (first sentence of the article page). This seems to be correct and similar definitions can be found on the internet and dictionaries. However further on, the article claims that is debated whether the EU is a superpower or not. This simply can't be the case, according to the definition, as the EU is not a state. Therefore, the EU can only be considered a potential superpower (as it is possible that it would become a state in the future). Sijo Ripa 17:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
It's more united then belgium.-- Ruber chiken 02:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I naver sade that it was a contry,you expect that.E=mc2 thus earth is flat.Here an advice,when triting subjects that you have no exparience with,never folow your instinct,instinct became good on a particular subject only with expirience.Your trusting your instinct when you have no expirience with the subject.And i was ironic,i live in bruxelle,and he lives in fladers,and for chort,the contry is in a mess.-- Ruber chiken 03:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
country (POLITICAL UNIT) Show phonetics noun [C] 1 an area of land that has its own government, army, etc:
Hmmmmmm well the EU seems to fulfil that enough. Like I put on the EU section, the trouble is that the EU is a sui generis entity - we've never seen anything like it before and cannot classify it.
Whatever it is, its certainly very powerful on the world stage and therefore needs a mention here. Trip: The Light Fantastic 15:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
It's extraterestrial.Europeans are extraterestials.-- Ruber chiken 03:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
While we debate about facts, you can show your beliefs via userboxes, put any of these on your userpage to reflect your views:
Enjoy, I created them to lighten up the debate a little bit. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Hehe am liking that! :P Ta very much! Trip: The Light Fantastic 15:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Mostly semantics, but the economic freedom map seems to contradict the adjoining description. The description says 'many of the EU's largest member states enjoy the highest degree of economic freedom in the world.' However, of the 10 most populous countries in the EU, only Germany and the UK have the highest degree of economic freedom (Free). France, Italy, Spain, Poland, Portugal, Greece, Belgium, and Czech Republic all indicate 'Mostly Free'. If you're going by GDP (nominal) then a majority is more appropriate than many. By GDP 6 of the top 10 are 'Free'(Germany, UK, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria), while the remaining 4 are 'Mostly free' (France, Italy, Spain, Belgium). Like I said, mostly semantics. -- Bobblehead 20:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The article mentioned the rising of Brazil as a possible signal that a multipolar world is developing. However, in the last few decades Brazil has consistantly failed to match the global average rate of GDP growth. It's share of the total world GDP has dropped from about 3.5% in 1980 to about 2.5% today. Brazil is declining rather than rising.-- Todd Kloos 02:32, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
From the lead of this article: "China and India appear to have the greatest potential, amongst all the other nations, of achieving superpower or near-superpower status within the 21st century." There are countless of internationally published articles and books on China being possibly the next superpower, but where are the citations for India? I don't see any genuine superpower references or external links on India for the Wikipedia article: India as an emerging superpower. If someone does not provide credible sources and references, I consider the claim of India having "greatest potential...of achieving superpower or near-superpower status within 21st century" to be original research (in violation of Wikipedia policy) and should be removed/edited immediately. Even EU has more superpower-related sources than India. -- Intsokzen 06:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
the hole discusion is byzantine.it's like arguing if the center of the univers is on earth or on the sun,they are bothe rubish.the term superpower instictivly and rognfuly means some entity that can do every thing they want.that's never existed,you are still under the influence of cold war propaganda.we live a multipollar world with a good deal of regional powers, some local powers and thats it.after the war usa had 50% of worlds production because every body else was destroide, but from the 70-80 the world rebalance it self.real power of america don't go much further than north american continant,every thing further is overextention,burnout is nececary to do what usa is doing curently.ussr too thaut they cauld do as they wich,but the prouf that they did not is that they collapsed sinse they overstreched and ruind them selvs.did any body (even at 91',even the most optimistic) predicted that end?no.they were all suprised.this article is writen by interested historians(not neutral).objectivly usa have a huge external debt,wors per gdp points than argentina,so the more logicall outcome is a collapse wors then argentina.so the article should be about superpower myth.The theorised usa power lise in washington or in ther creditors.I mean that the aparent strenchth of usa is due to ther abyssal deficits,it's the flat earth theory of oure time(no,you don't vote truth).It's like superman,superpower it's sciencefiction.-- Ruber chiken 02:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
to simplistic.it don't take in too acount that somebody may have more than what's usfull.acording to the critirion the biger the beter.would the usa be beter of if say 40% of gdp was going in the militairy.if not which one?10%?1%.is the 12 other contryies armies to small OR the usa army to big?the ideal militairy spending is it 5%? less?more?-- Ruber chiken 02:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Keep em short and snappy please, kids. There's an article for em for a reason! Trip: The Light Fantastic 17:10, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
The EU only a potential superpower??? The EU has already a larger GDP that the US and has its member nations hold vast control over the world's natural and economic resources. Take the example of aluminum cans. A few years ago, aluminum cans were the most popular soda conatiner in the US and around the world. But due to the legislation of EU memeber states, plastic bottles have been replacing aluminum cans, not only in the EU but worldwide including right here in the US. One needs to look beyond military power, the EU's economy and the huge conglomerations heaquatered in EU member states have as much control over the fate of the world's resources as the US and its coperations. Concerning, the military, China, the US, the EU all have enough gunpower to destroy manking, so what's the use in counting! It is the control over resources that counts and here the total GDP is the best indicator. Signature brendel 19:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's, as a basis for argument, divide superpower status into four heads: cultural, military, diplomatic, and economic.
Cultural The states of Europe, like all nations these days, are not cultural islands cut off from all outside influence. In terms of language, the Arts etc there has always been cultural interchange. This does not mean that there is any sort of unified European culture. The nations have no real cultural homogenity - setting aside the spread of English as the global language and the attraction to Hollywood. In Northern Europe especially, there is little concept of being a 'European'.
Can we really say that Europe as a whole has contributed to the culture of Australia etc? It strikes me that these nations bear the overwhelming imprint of British culture more than any (admitting the case of France in Canada, and the influence of immigration on the US).
Military Three countries in the EU have decent militaries, the UK and France, with Germany a distant third. As far as the rest of Europe goes they are, with respect, bit players. I made the point above re. military integration. There simply isn't any real EU wide military cooperation. Yes they cooperate through NATO, but that is a different institution run along different lines.
The US and UK are integrated to a tremendous extent, conducting regular joint exercises, procuring the same (or interoperable) equipment such as the JSF fighter, and the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers. The goal for each of these was to have interoperability with US assets, not French or German (aside from common NATO standards).
Diplomatic The example of Iraq will be sufficiently well known to all of us to need repetition here. On the other hand we have the EU3 negotiating with Iran, and EU involvement in the Israel/Palestinian question. This is an area in some flux, however I think that we are justified in drawing the conclusion that this sort of EU front is the exception rather than the rule. Most foreign relations are still conducted as individual nations, especially with the idea of an EU Diplomatic Service having been rejected.
Economic This has been accepted as the main ground for considering the EU as a potential superpower. I won't discuss this much further other than to point out that despite EU company legislation, almost all companies remain organised along national lines. Due to the efforts of the EU, there is a lot of common regulation between member states, but they aren't organised at a European level.
The EU is not regarded as a superpower by international opinion. Do I say that this may not change? Certainly not, a changing political consensus could lead to further, faster integration, turning the EU into something more unified. But this is not the present case, and it is the present case with which we are concerned. A superpower arises through a synthesis of elements, economic power alone is not enough. It can only be called power if there is the intention to use it to pursue goals, something which the EU lacks. In fact there isn't even agreement between member states as to what the EU should be - economic bloc, or unified nation state?
Aside from these arguments however, I really must point out one thing that this page lacks - any references at all. We do not have any sort of academic basis cited for the comparisions we are making between our superpower and potential superpowers. Personally I don't see the point in doing too much work here until this situation is resolved; the page simply becomes more and more OR. I don't have access to any potential sources, do any of you?
Xdamr 13:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"While there is some controversy over the EU being a superpower or not, its sheer gross domestic product, control over the world's resources as well as cultural influence over the world set it apart from China, India and the US. Despite the fact that the EU is not a country and therefore not a superpower in the same sense as the United States whose unformed governement policy gives it unrivaled diplomatic and military power, its is one of the worlds most powerful unions. European culture has a profound imapct on the world, whether it be fashion, music, entertainment, or automobiles. With a GDP of over twelve trillion US dollars the EU and its corperations and investors have imense power over the world economy and the global allocation of resources."
How is that POV?
Have you read the US section, if so you will notice that I took many of the sentences that also apply for the EU and merely switched "US" for "EU" (that's why the spelling mistake below. Please tell me the parts that are POV and I'll fix them, than put up the tag.
Signature
brendel 06:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
"Right now most say that only the US is a superpower".So what,peopol beleav in many craps,the superpower thing is no exeption. We don't vote for truth. Yes on paper eu looks very divided, but in practice since they share a lot of interests and are too unterdependent it's not the case. You expect what? what it will get unifide over night? Yesterday it was not even a regional power an today it's a superpower, a quantum leep. It's the classical border problem, at wich point, it would be suffishantly unified according to you, and the day they do, the unification hapend that day, or was spred on many decades? The helvetic confederation is 800 years old, you can say that today it's a federation, but at wich point did the swich hapened? Your are fooled because there are 25 presidents and not 1. For the militairy, as brendel said, they both have the capasity to destroy the planet several times, so counting is usless.-- Ruber chiken 16:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Why is The European Union considered a superpower canidate and the Commonwealth Of Nations and The League of Arab States,and The CIS are not? Dudtz 6/8/06 9:10 PM EST
Because this organisations aren't serious unions.They are talking shops.-- Ruber chiken 17:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The eu is not a nation!! It is made up of weak and powerful countries. If the eu is going to be a superpower then the UN is also. I believe the eu is a strong union but that is all [stanley]
In the main section on the European Union, a bullet point under "Economic and Financial Factors" read:
I changed this to read:
This was done for the following reasons:
1. The bullet point intended to refer to the infrastructure of the EU, not of the United States.
2. To correct a sentence fragment and improve readability.
--
Mrpaco 06:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for your corrections! That was my mistake, I'm sorry. Regards, Signature brendel 06:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Usa has abysal external debt.It's because of ther great economy,or is the abysal deficits that make it look so good?The power of the usa belogns to how,americans or foren bankers and investors?-- Ruber chiken 15:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Since my post is ignored ,i just chage the tag,from pov,tawrds totaly disputed.-- Ruber chiken 04:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi, our debate over the EUs status as a superpower aside. Shouldn't we be using the Template talk:Cite web for our sources. I have been using it on Passenger vehicles in the United States if you'd like to see an example of it being used in article. Using this template provides, in my opinion, for a much clearer overview of references and automatically keeps them in order. As I get around to it, I'll convert the current reference into using this template. Thanks. Signature brendel 19:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
maby your rafaring to my ugly way of references and links.It's just my fault.Do as you said.-- Ruber chiken 19:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
No, no. That's not what I am referring to. Most Wikipedia articles cite their sources using {{ref|123} } and {{note|123} }. A better to reference is using the template I mentioned above. FYI: Thank you for the reference articles you have provided. Signature brendel 20:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
This is due to poverty(hi inequalities in american incoms) and poor education(whorst beteen the developed contryes).I's a whell undestould fact that poverty and poor education incrises fertility(statisticly proven).The oposite is olso thrue.No exeption what so evar,USA aren't an exeption of the rule.Canada has the most inflou of imigrants per capita,and even they,the'll experience population decline.This point shose that someting wrong in the usa,not that the rest of the developed world is laking behind.
The EU contryes contribute more.EU is a de facto political entity
-- Ruber chiken 19:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
This page is not about morally approving or disapproving policies. This page is about power in the world. Sijo Ripa 21:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
The impotance of gdp per capital is that it's shose that the us cant go hire.It's alredy at 110%.On contrast europe have more or less same gdp with the usa,but in a more relaxte way(they are 450million).The gdp is just a statistic,how do you acoun't overworke in it?By been over worked is this streghthens or weekens americans?I mean,is the quality and sustanibility that is shone.I'm saying gdp must be interprted,not just taken as is.we compare someon hou is doing 110% with someone at 80%,don't you think that this have an influance in the real power compareson,and so in the superpower debate.-- Ruber chiken 21:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
Low rates of imigration?Every time EU expands, in what category do you put that?and when turkey joines(70 million,fertility 2.5 or something).europeans can increas ther working time,americans can't.Don't forget that children have a cost,europeans have less but well educated children,americans on the other hand are poorly educated(acording to wikipedia),it's seems to me that americans is more quantity than quality.you argue if it's sustainable.if you consider that resources aren't infite,and that india and china at americans comsoption rates would need several planetes.In the perspective of Hubbert peak theory,the cost of low fertility don't seems so bad,a decreas in population dencity have advantages.America hi population growth is due to poverty,how you compare that cost compared with the cost of low fertility.integration of immigrantes don't seem to mee as good as it is said,for example blacks are still the poorer of americans,if integration was as good as advertised then it schouldn't be any corelation.What gerbrendel has too say on that,he lives in canada so i'm gasing that he nows something on the isue.For the long run how do you acomodate infinite population growrh on the same(or depleating) resources?That's clearly not sustainable.for european welfare i guess that in combination with increas in productivity,benefits from population decline(for example prices in housing are expected to fall),lesser cost for resing educated children(leser children i mean),contribution from the now unemployed.The increas in welfare cost should be manageble at relative lower sacrifices(but at hier finacial cost) than expected-- Ruber chiken 23:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
(1)what makes you thik that EU will be 27 at 2050,they wher 6 50 years ago,yes the 15 will probably ther population schrink.But an EU inlargment isn't something betewn imigration and natural growth,so in a certain pov the population of the EU 27 will schrink but in an other pov EU will not,due to elargments.(2)if you make more children is statisticly probable that your pore or poorly educated,this is thrue for immigrants and for natives.(3)infinite population growth is not an option.Economist beleave that the law of the market is as good as a law of physics,and think that the market will solve apsolutly everithing.Physics say that you can't drain the planette endlessly.Immigration should(in my view) just damper the poepulation dekline.just see india and china,i wonder wher are they going to find all the natural resources and energy to fuel ther groth(it's progected that oil will be exansted in 2050),how a billion peopol can on the same time feed it self and have imperial views.You whant economic groth, up to the stratosphere or something,The only isue is if technicly we can sustain all the old without without demanding to much sacrifices from the youth.The european way of groth that i advocate is ,simply to enlarge for ofseting apsolute decline(russia,turkiey or what evar,we are talking for 50 years spam)."You state that Europe can increase its productivity and the US can't"that's not what i meant,american's cant increase ther houres of work,prodictivity is determined by technology and is rufly the same in both.Europeans even if they can't increas ther productivity per houre they, they still can increse ther houres of work."less workers and much higher taxes will only harm the economy",that's neoliberalism theory(tax is evil,oooouuu),the goverments are not going to swolow the tax, they going to spend them,the isue of less workers,is a technical isue,not economic.on top of that europe(and japan) has commercial exedents(hundred of billion or someting,i think),if they are redust to zero it's an equivallent increas in level of life,exedents mean in practice that you work but don't consume.(4)For black americans i mean, that despite the fact that they are american's for centuries ,they still are very poor(not whell integrated for me)."assimilate quite well" but mistiriously after 3 centuries black are still the poorer of americans???"gangsta-culture"i don't now what this mean,but it's sound to me like a escape goat theory,so that the goverment don't recongnise his responsability on the isue."nation, Flanders"and from when flanders it's a nation,it's a buch of grede littel peopol that find normal to not chare with it's poor nabors.(i'm from brussel,haha).I didn't say that rasism was inexistant in europe, i questioned the verasity of the american melting pot,how come than a 3 century inequality still persists?(5)with uneducated peopol you gate presidents like buch,are you schure that they are beter off compared with a situation of less many for recherch.And in the final,most of them don't seems to be benefiting from all this,how is it possible that a democracy produce such a system.I hope that you can rede it-- Ruber chiken 03:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
(1) A shrinking and aging population. Average age will remain about 37 in the US and will become 55 (!) in the EU in 2050. (2) Poverty can cause more children, but the US does not cause the poverty which causes the children. On the contrary, the US enriches immigrants. (3) Doom scenario's about population growth are not backed up by facts. Already since the '60s these scenario's are undermined by real world evolutions. (4) Productivity is a lot higher in the US and is that's not only determined by better technology but also by more human capital. (5) An aging and a shrinking population will not cause lower growth? That's really funny. You think that less workers, higher taxes and higher (and inefficient) spending in non-productive sectors won't slow growth? You think that when Italy's population shrinks by 10 million, their economy won't shrink? (6) Flemings constitute a nation, but not a state. That's a difference. And I find your comment quite racist and offensive. You said: "it's a buch of grede littel peopol that find normal to not chare with it's poor nabors." While you forget that every Fleming already gives two centuries money for "charity" to French speakers in Belgium and that the ammount is currently 2000 euro (2500 dollar)/person every year. (or 8000 euro (10 000 dollar) for an average family.) A little bit respect and a little bit gratitude are appropriate. (7) Higher education and more research do mean more power. There are few variables so directly linked with durable higher economic growth, and with higher military power than technological innovation. Sijo Ripa 18:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
(1)Yes thet true,but they will be 400-450(i think),europe is alredy overpopulate,you have keep in mind that a sustanable growth must not destroy the environment,it's not just to pleas the ecologists,it is importatnt to not destroy our invironment(for our well beening)(2)"US does not cause the poverty which causes the children" no,the poverty is determined by goverment policy,the poore have to compite with the rich,if they are not helped by the goverment they will remaine poor(example black in america since 300 years)."the US enriches immigrants" that's because of grate inaquality,in the us you tend to be ither very rich,ither very poor,your looking only on the whiners.(3)"Doom scenario's about population growth are not backed up by facts"this in phycology has a name, i don't no what it was,because it didn't hapen yet,thus it will never hapen,it's titanic mantality(you see what i mean).In the 60's whe were 3billion(i think) and whith plenty of fossil fuel,in 2050we would be 9 billion,petroleum and natural gas whould be exausted,agriculture need vast amount of energy for the machines,pesticedes and fertilisers,no i don't beleav that we will have a famine,but eating is not an opsion,do you realy what to get your self in such an adventure.(4)thers productivity per houre and productivity per person,productivity per person is greater in the us because they work more,from what i now productivity per houre is not comparable direcly,the indistrial base has shrunk in the us faster then in europe(how's doing belooming deficits),but the productivity per hour is lower in the indestry than the rest of the economy(that's why they tend to delocalise in the first place),so mechanicly the productivity per houre increases.Human capital?they are poorly educated and electes buch for president,are you shure that the average american is hire than the average european?(5)it's the percatita income that's important,the economy will chrink, but the population too will schrink.If the declining growth is at the same spead than the decling population you don't see the diference.The trick is that the resulting burden on the workers it don't get too hi.combining hier productivity(technology),imigration,less children(intill they get 20 year old,they just consume,if they go to the university it's wors),less premature deaths(we are talking about 2050!!);less expensive housing(that's reduses the gdp,but actually increasses prosperity) and yes increas in work time(presumably,resonable).you don't have to forget that gdp is a statistic that shows production,it' don't say any thing about the efficiency of the consomption(for example if you are stuck in the trafick and burn fuell,that's been added in the gdp,does it make you feal beter by been stuck in trafick).Why "and inefficient",you consider it inefichient spending to care for your parents?yes i indestand you mean productive,but if the goal of the many spend is to care for the population of the state,why consider the production of cars effiscient,and the production of walfare inafiscient,in both cases thers demand for it,i caul ineffiscient coruption,aireports in the midle of the woods,accidents,hospitals that was naver been used because of asbestos(ammiante),well you see.(6)I didn't understant whel,you mean that from when the economic situation in the contry inverted(+-70),flanders alredy gave more than what was given for the rest of belgiun history fom the south(coal mines).If flanders is realy a nation than whay remember it now that the south has economic problems,you have to admite that it don't seem to a coinsidence.In checkoslovakia agen the rich cheks fluch the poor slovaks,in padania(northen italy) the clame is even more suspishus since the teritory is very rich(compared to the rest) but has the same language ,and no particular historic reason.I caul this greed,what is it hen,if it's not it?By the way they are not going to go very far if they sessed,they simply be federal states in federal europe,it's seems to me hard labor for no gaine.WE ARE NOT BEGARS,we are trited like begars,lazy,stuped and i don't now what else,beening poor takes aout several years of average life spam,if we are realy poor aout of laziness,how do you explane that kind of diference?and by the way it's 3%(the 2000/year) of income of flemmich,this figure is in the european norm of trans regional subsidies(i mean within a singel state). (7)"Higher education" the americans are poorly educated acording to wikipedia,this don't have any concequence in the quality of ther dessisions?"more research" agen this is not that simpel,allot of ther spendings are for militairy research,what the use of a neutron bombe in a civilian aplication?thers not much aplication,suposing that it's no secret of defence.A simpel exampel is boing, you could say that with all the zillions of the american militairy budget,and all the hitech warplanes they should have blown away airbus,quite the oposite.You have to be careful when reeding statistics,statistics have to be interprted corectly.When your making investments,you have to balance them,or something somewhere might get atrophide.For example in formula1,the technicians have to take dessisions,on the degres of the fine,the tires,reservoir of fuel,number of stops,mecanical parts and so one.If you fill up the reservoir your making lesser stops but you are to havy,if you put in less fuel you have to make more stops.You see what i mean, you have to be balanced betewn the two in order to finich first(what's counts).Many things don't show up in a statistic like gdp(for example the advanteges of leisure) for example,it's not just a mater of moral,it's a mater of effisciency,and what your objectives are.hmm i wonder when i'll tired you up.-- Ruber chiken 21:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Eek. Where did all this come from? I wouldn't say that the EU was a superpower... just yet. Can't we merge the EU superpower article into the potential one? Trip: The Light Fantastic 18:50, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
So what to do? Should we simply write on the article that the EU may, or may not fall into the category of superpower and this is a decision we feel the Wikipedia community cannot make? Trip: The Light Fantastic 19:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
50% of american(i think) beleav in ufos,there are numerus religions contradicting them selves ,so on should be carefull with sources.The authority sourses claim that wikipedia is a bunch of poorly reeten articles by kidies,and thats not a serious thin,it will probably evolve to oblivion.Sourses aren't everything,they ofteh contradict them selves
"While there is some controversy over the EU being a superpower or not"it don't attempt to determine the thruth. An argument for EU unity,is that is a self orginizing(reed this Self organization is umportant,espacially the human society section) system,this systems exist in physics,chemistry,biology and even in human societys(and betewn contrys).It is a system of Cellular automaton(contris,yes i now the term hears barbar),the contrys(automata) are interacting with sertain rulles(self preservation),and in a result a orginized behavior emerges despite the fact that thers no central coorcetiv power. Conway's Game of Life,ilustrates whel on very simpel model how this princepel works.historic examples of this is the Hanseatic League or the Old Swiss Confederacy.bothe wherent contrys,and dispite this they misteriously got togeuther and impose them selvs.-- Ruber chiken 01:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It is no doubt that the US can defeat any nation one on one without any use of nukes. But if the American poeple does not support the war then it might as well be lost.
In that sence.USA lacks too of references that is a superpower.In the article ,poepol are saing,and the CIA is saing,What about academic stuf prouving that usa is a superpower.Plus the critiria are not very precise to begin with.When you gate in to detail about usa real situation,it's a lot chakyer then it apiers.-- Ruber chiken 04:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
not clearly defined|may differ between sources|interpreted That don't sound very academic.So thers no reson to stuck closly to that particular definition.The EU is regarded in wikipedia as,an sus genesis structure,so you can't claim that it should be conssider as a bunch of independed states.An expression of opinion does not cease to be an expression of opinion simply because it is sourced.Wikipedia is not a brain dead reporter of sources.This post is too long.Respond to to EU vs USA 2-- Ruber chiken 08:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The term ... was coined in the book The Superpowers, written by William Thornton Rickert Fox, an American foreign policy professor at the Columbia University in 1943. reference out of date "1943,in the midel of the war,so not credible even at his time.He also says that great britain and ussr are superpowers.There are several souces that argue,that the usa is not any more a superpower.there may well be no academic criteria well that's ruther a problem in the first place.If they aren't whell established critiria,then it's imposible to have any credible academique source that sayes that EU is a superpower(even if it's explicit sayr so),but then all the sources on usa superpower status fall in the same category.Since we whant to have an article we need some kind of concessus,of what we are whriting about.What i find for the moment is simply,investigate the tow in the same maner.your saying not simply journalistic pieces and is often said in the media that the US,i am confused.-- Ruber chiken 18:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for ,cursucuiting my post,and not replying to it.The problemme is that your are not going to find any serious references on the USA.Then what deleat everithing?And what about the clayms that thers no superpower what soever?-- Ruber chiken 20:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
"fail to give consideration to Northern and Eastern Europe, whose views differ substantially from those of the Franco-German axis."How do you back this up?-- Ruber chiken 20:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
reed this Groupthink,tell me your thauts.-- Ruber chiken 20:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
A common now,you can't be serious.The origniator of the term,is a source from 1943.Don't seem to you a litul bit rusty.In the midel of the war,what did you expect that he's going to say.I 'm regecting that source all together,is out of date,63 years old.You can not be serious.A copel of years more and it will be public domain.Plus the EU didn't existed at this time.The only reason the source stais is for the "origniator of the term" thing.What about today."Additions or subtractions from this list require sources. Common knowledge tells us" you aren't contradicting your self?-- Ruber chiken 22:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
i'm claming that this source is out of date.Even the USA need new sources.Many things have changed in 63 years.I claim that EU and USA souces are equaly bad.The 1943 source didn't gave a chance to the EU,for the simpel reason it didn't existed then.So puting the EU in is justified.The same quantity of wikipedia rules where briched in both cases.-- Ruber chiken 22:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
The [Hanseatic League] was clearly no contry but was a very strong regional power.The helvetic confederation forced the emperor to accepted it's cessecion.The german confederation was no talking shop like the UN.For what reson the EU have to be treated diferently from the auther 3 things.-- Ruber chiken 04:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Whoever was editing this page crappily should probably stop, it makes Wiki look bad having basic words spelt wrong and commas placed wrong.
you probably refering to me.Spelling is esaly fixed.-- Ruber chiken 13:32, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Controversy set aside,this article lacks critisism on the usa(and EU) weaknesses.It should be put on separet paragraphs.Every thing it's not rosy,thers a lot of litterature on weaknesses but hear is very low.-- Ruber chiken 23:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
the wew referces, at the bottom where done a littel bit in a hury, and sloply,titels may not corespond to content-- Ruber chiken 05:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Ruber, I appreciate your views, but this is the equation in international relations. NOONE can deny the FACT that the United States is a superpower, the United States is singlehandedly better than any other nation in every field. So that's solved, you can't get rid of the United States. Now, the European Union is simply not close enough to a nation to be a superpower. The individual member states still make their own decisions, still send their troops to places where the entire EU is not sending them. The European Union is an emerging superpower because it is NOT UNITED. Surely you can see how illogical it is to simply add up the number of troops in each of the member states and say this is the EU Military. This article is misleading to the readers of Wikipedia. If you want sources, do a simply google search "European Union superpower" and you get lots of sites saying the European Union will be the next superpower, then do "USA Superpower" or "United States superpower" and you get only results that put the United States as the current superpower. Don't use Wikipedia Policy to support falsehoods. A POV Tag is not enough for such a misconception. Nobleeagle (Talk) 08:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"NOONE can deny the FACT that the United States is a superpower"is POV,add references.singlehandedly better,this is not thrue,she is overboroued.close enough to a nation yes this is thrue,to be a superpower this is not thrue.E=mc2 so earth is flat.In theory they make ther own decisions,but they can't aforde it.They have to many common intersts.The article is misliding about the posission of usa in the world-- Ruber chiken 15:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is double standart.The usa is based on media opinions not academic source.Deleting bothe is not an option,you don't have an article then.So EU has it place here.-- Ruber chiken 15:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Verifiability wins every time, no matter how sure we are in our own mind that we are right this aplys for you too.-- Ruber chiken 15:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a 63 year old source,riten in the midel of world war 2.This isn't todays source,this is archeological finding.Find a todays source or deleat both.-- Ruber chiken 16:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is just POV,find reputable source-- Ruber chiken 16:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The cold war section wasn't larger?-- Ruber chiken 16:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Since thers no referces for usa,then it too have to go.An auther compromice is a section for EU like you said.But if you folow the discussion they will say that you don't have references for that(forgeting that usa too has none),and that EU is no contry and so it can't con't.Same thig in the regional power article.-- Ruber chiken 17:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You don't understany,they say EU is not a contry,period.It's an international organization like the UN.It's not a nation state.-- Ruber chiken 17:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
They using this as a excuse to deleated.They consider all the rest irelevant.The EU could have benn a billion peopol with 50% of worlds gdp,they couldn't care less,a gain they would say EU=UN,so we deleate.You understand now,they don't even see in to it-- Ruber chiken 18:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
You can put your source.But the text is disputed.See multipolar world section-- Ruber chiken 18:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
No,i'm not an hypocrite,thers hi tension on this talk page.-- Ruber chiken 18:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"You can put your source"? If I can put my source, why you keep removing then? Once again, what WW3? 219.79.166.20 18:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
World war 3.Because you also chaged the text,thats why.In multipolar world it is disputed.-- Ruber chiken 18:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Your too specific.-- Ruber chiken 19:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
WW3,i mean that theres a dispute,reed a bit the talk page.This is the hole dispute,it is argued that this is public opinion,not academic reserche.The only academic source available is 63 years old.In a multipolar world,by definition,thers no superpower at all.-- Ruber chiken 19:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
concidered-->Is.For me this is a change of mening.Vandalism-like edits?Vandalism would be,if i had chaged it to,USA is a banana,Thats vandalism.We have a dispute,thats all,i'm not peaking to you,i didn't tuch your auther edit(if you asume that i didn't see it),your suposed to asume good faith,on riten text is easy too misanderstand peopol.Your report is prematured.You ignored the big sings.The debate is alredy heaten as it is.-- Ruber chiken 19:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
In the multipolar section,there are 7.-- Ruber chiken 20:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
oups i think the last 2 are the same.-- Ruber chiken 21:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Everyone, this is getting out of hand. Don't turn this into a revert war. As the main editor of this article and the European Union http://tools.wikimedia.de/~tim/counter/?page=Superpower http://tools.wikimedia.de/~tim/counter/?page=European_Union_as_an_emerging_superpower article, and a proud European Federalist, I have always tried to balance my views on the EU with the needs of Wikipedia.
The trouble is coming with no compromise: Signature mentioned an interesting compromise above, setting the EU apart from China and India may be a good idea. I mean look at the facts, according to the CIA world factbook https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ee.html:
Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) Top Five
1 United States $ 12,360,000,000,000 2005 est. 2 European Union $ 12,180,000,000,000 2005 est. 3 China $ 8,859,000,000,000 2005 est. 4 Japan $ 4,018,000,000,000 2005 est. 5 India $ 3,611,000,000,000 2005 est
- The US and EU are far away the most powerful here. China is catching up as it emerges as a superpower, but its breakneck growth speed still hasn't got it even close to the other two. This is the hallmarks of a superpower in both the EU and US.
Electricity consumption Top Five
1 United States 3,656,000,000,000 2003 2 European Union 2,711,000,000,000 2002 est. 3 China 2,170,000,000,000 2004 5 Japan 946,300,000,000 2003
- Might sound strange, but is a good indication of a superpower. Look at the US, EU and China's consumption compared to their nearest rivals!
Oil consumption Top Five
1 United States 20,030,000 2003 est. 2 European Union 14,590,000 2001 3 China 6,391,000 2004
- Again a good indicator. Look at the US and EU's consumption. Shows that other nations are mainly scrabbling to supply oil to the EU and US's lifestyles. Ask yourself why this is.
Exports Top Five
1 European Union $ 1,318,000,000,000 2004 2 Germany $ 1,016,000,000,000 2005 est. 3 United States $ 927,500,000,000 2005 est. 4 China $ 752,200,000,000 2005 est. 5 Japan $ 550,500,000,000 2005 est.
-Lo and behold, it aint even China. Imagine how scared other countries are that the EU will cut off exports to them? That's power.
Imports Top Five
1 United States $ 1,727,000,000,000 2005 est. 2 European Union $ 1,402,000,000,000 2004 3 Germany $ 801,000,000,000 2005 est. 4 China $ 631,800,000,000 2005 est. 5 United Kingdom $ 483,700,000,000 2005 est.
- Oh, look which two are top again. You know from the Bra Wars how jittery nations get if the EU closes it's borders to them.
Clearly China is rising, but the EU is already there... Some mention needs to be made of this than simply lumping it with the others. Trip: The Light Fantastic 18:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I have some doutes if this will be axepted.The EU is no contry,so fluch it.-- Ruber chiken 19:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, there's always my favorite rule in Wikipedia, Be Bold! I think the numbers Trip: The Light Fantastic speak for themselves. The EU belongs in its own section in this article as it is now. Regards, Signature brendel 21:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is the problem,since EU is no contry,then you don't have the right to add the numbers.Since you don't have the rghit to add the numbers,then you have no case.If you adding the number then is POV.I expecte a revert war.Same thing in the regional power article.In this article we clasifie contries according to geography,not belogning to a particular organization,so EU is not admitable.If you don't concider EU in the regional power system of europe,then the vieud balance of power in the region is extrimly distorted from reality.-- Ruber chiken 21:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Am i so dificult to be read.I mean noble eagel and X*** will destrue your argument by just saying,that it's an international organization like ascean,cis,UN.You understand now their position?For them EU=NAFTA(north american trade thing).
All cites from GlobalCPR should be removed as one cannot trace this website to any person or organization. Intangible 19:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The current version I have reverted to is the version that basically shows the article as it was before inclusion of the European Union. This debate has really made this article hard to work with, so I have filed an RfC on the topic. Please allow for consensus here before reverting my edit to any other version with the EU stated as anything other than a superpower. If you do, I will revert. So: NO REVERSION WITHOUT CONSENSUS FROM NOW ON So I have filed the RfC, please keep conversations neat and clean, the issue of debate here are:
Opinions that have been stated are above, but basically those that oppose the EUs inclusion are using the fact that it is not politically united enough to be considered alongside the US. Nobleeagle (Talk) 06:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
In reviewing this article and the sources cited, I'm finding several things:
Long story short, if you keep the current definition of "superpower" (which based on the sources provided I'd seriously question) the article is fine as is for now, but the world is at a tipping point and may need to be updated in the next few years or so, but not in the way you're thinking. If anything it's China that's the next superpower, not the EU. -- Bobblehead 08:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Very funy,you simply not going to rech a concensus in purpes.So it will be imposible to change,and add auther ideologies then yours.Because you where here earlyer,it don't give you the right to sensor us.Your calls on peopol in Politics related was misleading.The isue was,USA,EU,MULTIPOLAR-- Ruber chiken 15:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Reverting prior to ,the EU and multipolar is equal to sensor chip.The new users are mislead into beleaving that is just an unclusion of the EU at the same status as the usa."that version is relatively worse in terms of quality and style" this is just an excuse,for deleating the holle thing-- Ruber chiken 16:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I have re-read all the posts above and come to one interesting conlcusion. It seems that everybody arguing here except, X***, has stated that giving the EU its own section is a good idea. I would be fine with just sperating the EU from China and India but not putting it under Todays superpower. So here's my compromise, the EU gets a seperate section, not under "Today's superpower" but seperate from China and India. Would that be a good compromise? Signature brendel 16:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
So hopefully this part has reached a consensus.-- Ruber chiken 19:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
He probably sleeping now.what about the multipolar section,he was contesting that?I don't see where.-- Ruber chiken 19:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Thats funy,i was thinking,the same about you.Remamber,we don't vote truth,and even less on concessus.You don't find odd that on a usue like this thers only one POV.Contrary to what you might think i'm a resonable person.You don't find ironic that a noble eagel talks to a ruber chiken.-- Ruber chiken 06:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I have no particular objection to the 'compromise', but this surely wasn't what the entire argument was about? If it was just a minor structural change like this then I, for one, wouldn't have been too bothered; I can readily accept that the economics of the EU place it on a different level from India and China.
Anyway, I'm glad that we are all reconciled.
Xdamr talk 11:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, the argument was about the EU being different from China and India and being a superpower. But since the EU is not a nation I found this to be a good compromise. I wanted the EU listed seperately and in order to reach middle ground I simply abandoned the notion to list the EU in the current superpowers section. I think its a good compromise that will ultimately benefit the reader. Signature brendel 17:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
A common now,how beleaves at thies noncens.It's evident that the usa are gods,and the rest of us degenereted pink babouns,it's obvious,everybody said that,is common sence.So why losing our preshes time in investigating the obvious.The peopol hou say autherways are marginals,they probably geolos,of america.-- Ruber chiken 18:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Heres a pice of advice,that is always thrue.When you triting subjects,where you have litel experience,NEVER trust your instinct,it will be almost certainly wrogn.Corect instinct comes only after expirience.You can both agree,i presume,that you became alot more eficient in your jobs,after expirience,then when you just reed the manual.It's the same phenomenon.Xdamr,trust me,a now beter than you what is academic rigor.-- Ruber chiken 02:02, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
For anyone else that comes here to comment, I think the question is:
Has the European Union accreud enough state-like characteristics to fulfil the dictionary definition of a superpower?
Dictionary definition:
Superpower: (noun) A powerful and influential state/nation/country [depending where you look], especially a nuclear power that dominates its allies or client states in an international power bloc. http://www.answers.com/superpower&r=67
It'd be helpful if you take an in-depth look at this question and ignore the rest of the problems with the article rather than summing it up in a sentence along with other issues. There's also no point in questioning whether the EU fills all superpower criteria, we've discerned that it and the US are in a league of their own, superpower-style. :P
Thank you for your help. If you want to stick around and help with other sections of the article after you've tried to answer the question, please do. :) Trip: The Light Fantastic 16:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Shit.No this is not the isue for the article.
-- Ruber chiken 16:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I take no stances.I argue to put in both.You argue in favor of one of them.So i'm not taking any desisions about what's corect.I don't see how you can be more neutral then that.-- Ruber chiken 17:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
A superpower is defined as "a state with the first rank in the international system and the ability to influence events and project power on a worldwide scale." (first sentence of the article page). This seems to be correct and similar definitions can be found on the internet and dictionaries. However further on, the article claims that is debated whether the EU is a superpower or not. This simply can't be the case, according to the definition, as the EU is not a state. Therefore, the EU can only be considered a potential superpower (as it is possible that it would become a state in the future). Sijo Ripa 17:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
It's more united then belgium.-- Ruber chiken 02:46, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I naver sade that it was a contry,you expect that.E=mc2 thus earth is flat.Here an advice,when triting subjects that you have no exparience with,never folow your instinct,instinct became good on a particular subject only with expirience.Your trusting your instinct when you have no expirience with the subject.And i was ironic,i live in bruxelle,and he lives in fladers,and for chort,the contry is in a mess.-- Ruber chiken 03:00, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
country (POLITICAL UNIT) Show phonetics noun [C] 1 an area of land that has its own government, army, etc:
Hmmmmmm well the EU seems to fulfil that enough. Like I put on the EU section, the trouble is that the EU is a sui generis entity - we've never seen anything like it before and cannot classify it.
Whatever it is, its certainly very powerful on the world stage and therefore needs a mention here. Trip: The Light Fantastic 15:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
It's extraterestrial.Europeans are extraterestials.-- Ruber chiken 03:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
While we debate about facts, you can show your beliefs via userboxes, put any of these on your userpage to reflect your views:
Enjoy, I created them to lighten up the debate a little bit. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Hehe am liking that! :P Ta very much! Trip: The Light Fantastic 15:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Mostly semantics, but the economic freedom map seems to contradict the adjoining description. The description says 'many of the EU's largest member states enjoy the highest degree of economic freedom in the world.' However, of the 10 most populous countries in the EU, only Germany and the UK have the highest degree of economic freedom (Free). France, Italy, Spain, Poland, Portugal, Greece, Belgium, and Czech Republic all indicate 'Mostly Free'. If you're going by GDP (nominal) then a majority is more appropriate than many. By GDP 6 of the top 10 are 'Free'(Germany, UK, Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, Austria), while the remaining 4 are 'Mostly free' (France, Italy, Spain, Belgium). Like I said, mostly semantics. -- Bobblehead 20:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)