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The page needs revising. Göbekli Tepe has made that point moot. Thank you. 188.238.156.225 ( talk) 21:11, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Studies are referenced for an end date of 1500 BC for a "wet period" which noted to be "as much as 500 years later than currently thought". As noted below, I'm not aware of a study of Kuper and/or Kröpelin to support this statement. If there some references that I am not aware of, please add a reference to that work. If the studies I note below are the intended references, I think the wording of this section needs to be updated. I'm happy to propose wording, but would like to settle on the intended reference before I propose.
I am not familiar with a Stefan Kröpelin study to support a statement for a wet period ended around 1500 BC. His geological work is very important to the study of the history of the climate of the Sahara as it is somewhat paradigm shifting on how long it took for that change to occur. Therefore, I appreciate him being referenced on this topic. However, the conclusion in the paper that reported what is arguably Kröpelin's most significant work on this topic- "Climate-Driven Ecosystem Succession..." (2008) - does not support this assertion, and in fact, contradicts it. A significant conclusion of this paper is that the Sahara went from a vegetative state to arid desert conditions gradually over the ~3,000 years preceding ~2,700 BC. He also concluded in this same paper that the climate went through an even more gradual change from the arid state of ~2,700BC to the present climate conditions (which are even more arid) over a period of an additional ~2000 yrs.
Since both Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin are referenced in the sentence in question, I speculate that the missing reference is "Climate-controlled Holocene occupation..." (2006) since it was authored by both of these men. I also speculate that since the date range of 3500-1500 BC is used, the paragraph of this paper with the heading "Late Holocene marginalization (3,500-1,500 B.C.E.)." is the area where this reference is particularly coming from. However, it should be noted that this section of the paper does not support a "wet" period in the Sahara after 3500 BC and in fact starts by saying "After 3,500 B.C.E. rains had ceased even in ecological niches such as the Gilf Kebir, and permanent occupation was restricted to southern areas..."
To clarify, I am not looking for these ideas to be removed if I am correct on the references involved. They are important to reference on this topic as they show the wet climate didn't just stop on a geological dime in the Sahara as was the consensus when Schoch and Reader did their initial work on this topic. Eric8911 ( talk) 21:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
This
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Under the subsection titled “Missing archaeological evidence for an earlier civilization”, I think it would be appropriate to add a response to Kenneth Feder’s point.
Add, “While the discovery of Göbekli Tepe (hyperlink to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe) does not provide evidence of a civilization in the Nile River valley capable of building a megalithic structure prior to 2500 BCE, it does provide evidence that human civilization had developed this capability in different parts of the world prior to 2500 BCE.” Frojabotta ( talk) 19:31, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
This
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Please change this: "Recent studies by German climatologists Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin, of the University of Cologne suggest the change from a wet to a much drier climate may have come to an end around 3500–1500 BC, which is as much as 500 years later than currently thought."
To this: "A recent study by Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin, of the University of Cologne suggest the change from a wet to an arid climate in the Sahara happened gradually with climate changes taking place on a north-to-south basis. According to this study, arid conditions began in the Egyptian Sahara by 5,300 B.C.E. These desert conditions gradually extended to the south with Northern Sudan experiencing an arid climate circa 1,500 B.C.E."
Also, please add this source to the above statement: https://www.uni-koeln.de/sfb389/sonstiges/kroepelin/242%202006%20Kuper%20Kroepelin%20Science%20313%20%20(11%20August%202006).pdf Eric8911 ( talk) 15:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for implementing this change.
Eric8911 ( talk) 22:59, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
This
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Take the word "fringe" out of the initial description of this theory, fringe implies a level of conspiracy or illogical thinking when there is plenty of scientific work proving that this theory is entirely possible. Stop spreading disinformation and subliminal narratives. 2A02:C7C:D667:5D00:54BB:FCDD:5635:B240 ( talk) 23:51, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
References
This
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"... once again aligning it with Plato's lost civilization of Atlantis" and Andalusian mystic ibn al-'Arabi's dating of the construction of the pyramids. [SOURCE: https://ibnarabisociety.org/time-is-not-real-eric-winkel/] 94.26.101.124 ( talk) 22:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Mark Lehner's primary complaint about Schoch:
Göbekli Tepe certainly makes that assertion false. Here is a quote from a reliable source (bold and italics added for emphasis):
All I suggest is to add that hunters and gatherers were capable of intricate megalithic structures w/o having a city, pottery shards, etc. Therefore, Göbekli Tepe and other archaeological sites have clearly proven that the Great Sphinx could certainly (but not definitely) be older than current estimates. ~~~~ Bill the Cat 7 ( talk) 18:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Although the water erosion hypothesis IS a somewhat fringe theory that asserts that the Sphinx is older than originally thought (predating the great flood), very few believers of this hypothesis think that Atlantians, or anything else Plato wrote about, built the Sphinx. Most believers of this hypothesis do not know who exactly did build the Sphinx, they just believe that it is older than the younger dryas. Please update the opening paragraph, as I believe that this false/misleading information would instantly dissuade many readers from continuing further. CentristGuy88 ( talk) 01:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Sphinx water erosion hypothesis article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The page needs revising. Göbekli Tepe has made that point moot. Thank you. 188.238.156.225 ( talk) 21:11, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Studies are referenced for an end date of 1500 BC for a "wet period" which noted to be "as much as 500 years later than currently thought". As noted below, I'm not aware of a study of Kuper and/or Kröpelin to support this statement. If there some references that I am not aware of, please add a reference to that work. If the studies I note below are the intended references, I think the wording of this section needs to be updated. I'm happy to propose wording, but would like to settle on the intended reference before I propose.
I am not familiar with a Stefan Kröpelin study to support a statement for a wet period ended around 1500 BC. His geological work is very important to the study of the history of the climate of the Sahara as it is somewhat paradigm shifting on how long it took for that change to occur. Therefore, I appreciate him being referenced on this topic. However, the conclusion in the paper that reported what is arguably Kröpelin's most significant work on this topic- "Climate-Driven Ecosystem Succession..." (2008) - does not support this assertion, and in fact, contradicts it. A significant conclusion of this paper is that the Sahara went from a vegetative state to arid desert conditions gradually over the ~3,000 years preceding ~2,700 BC. He also concluded in this same paper that the climate went through an even more gradual change from the arid state of ~2,700BC to the present climate conditions (which are even more arid) over a period of an additional ~2000 yrs.
Since both Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin are referenced in the sentence in question, I speculate that the missing reference is "Climate-controlled Holocene occupation..." (2006) since it was authored by both of these men. I also speculate that since the date range of 3500-1500 BC is used, the paragraph of this paper with the heading "Late Holocene marginalization (3,500-1,500 B.C.E.)." is the area where this reference is particularly coming from. However, it should be noted that this section of the paper does not support a "wet" period in the Sahara after 3500 BC and in fact starts by saying "After 3,500 B.C.E. rains had ceased even in ecological niches such as the Gilf Kebir, and permanent occupation was restricted to southern areas..."
To clarify, I am not looking for these ideas to be removed if I am correct on the references involved. They are important to reference on this topic as they show the wet climate didn't just stop on a geological dime in the Sahara as was the consensus when Schoch and Reader did their initial work on this topic. Eric8911 ( talk) 21:17, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under the subsection titled “Missing archaeological evidence for an earlier civilization”, I think it would be appropriate to add a response to Kenneth Feder’s point.
Add, “While the discovery of Göbekli Tepe (hyperlink to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe) does not provide evidence of a civilization in the Nile River valley capable of building a megalithic structure prior to 2500 BCE, it does provide evidence that human civilization had developed this capability in different parts of the world prior to 2500 BCE.” Frojabotta ( talk) 19:31, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please change this: "Recent studies by German climatologists Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin, of the University of Cologne suggest the change from a wet to a much drier climate may have come to an end around 3500–1500 BC, which is as much as 500 years later than currently thought."
To this: "A recent study by Rudolph Kuper and Stefan Kröpelin, of the University of Cologne suggest the change from a wet to an arid climate in the Sahara happened gradually with climate changes taking place on a north-to-south basis. According to this study, arid conditions began in the Egyptian Sahara by 5,300 B.C.E. These desert conditions gradually extended to the south with Northern Sudan experiencing an arid climate circa 1,500 B.C.E."
Also, please add this source to the above statement: https://www.uni-koeln.de/sfb389/sonstiges/kroepelin/242%202006%20Kuper%20Kroepelin%20Science%20313%20%20(11%20August%202006).pdf Eric8911 ( talk) 15:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Thanks for implementing this change.
Eric8911 ( talk) 22:59, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Take the word "fringe" out of the initial description of this theory, fringe implies a level of conspiracy or illogical thinking when there is plenty of scientific work proving that this theory is entirely possible. Stop spreading disinformation and subliminal narratives. 2A02:C7C:D667:5D00:54BB:FCDD:5635:B240 ( talk) 23:51, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
References
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
"... once again aligning it with Plato's lost civilization of Atlantis" and Andalusian mystic ibn al-'Arabi's dating of the construction of the pyramids. [SOURCE: https://ibnarabisociety.org/time-is-not-real-eric-winkel/] 94.26.101.124 ( talk) 22:50, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Mark Lehner's primary complaint about Schoch:
Göbekli Tepe certainly makes that assertion false. Here is a quote from a reliable source (bold and italics added for emphasis):
All I suggest is to add that hunters and gatherers were capable of intricate megalithic structures w/o having a city, pottery shards, etc. Therefore, Göbekli Tepe and other archaeological sites have clearly proven that the Great Sphinx could certainly (but not definitely) be older than current estimates. ~~~~ Bill the Cat 7 ( talk) 18:45, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
Although the water erosion hypothesis IS a somewhat fringe theory that asserts that the Sphinx is older than originally thought (predating the great flood), very few believers of this hypothesis think that Atlantians, or anything else Plato wrote about, built the Sphinx. Most believers of this hypothesis do not know who exactly did build the Sphinx, they just believe that it is older than the younger dryas. Please update the opening paragraph, as I believe that this false/misleading information would instantly dissuade many readers from continuing further. CentristGuy88 ( talk) 01:25, 27 February 2024 (UTC)