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Archive 1 |
According to new policy approved by Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. regions this page should be moved to Southwestern United States, and likewise its related sub-articles as well. Thanks. - JCarriker 10:19, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
This article confuses at least three areas that are or may be called the Southwest (and really should be named that instead of generically Southwestern United States). I would suggest someone knowledgeable (not me) break out the various regions from this article or at least put them in separate sections until expanded sufficiently. The suggested regions are as follows: CPret 16:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The original Southwest consisted of those states with ties to the Confederacy but considered part of the West, not part of the South proper (Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, and Indian territory; later Oklahoma). By the latter part of the twentieth century, only Texas and Oklahoma were still considered Southwest. The territorial bands related to the development of Jazz in Kansas City were all based in this region [1], [2], [3]. Honky-tonk music also developed in this region.
Desert Southwest was a name given to the desert areas of the southwestern United States to differentiate it from the previous Southwest. It applied mainly the area covered by the Sonoran Desert of southern Arizona and California and by the Chihuahuan Desert of southwest Texas, southern New Mexico, and southeastern Arizona [4], [5]. It is sometimes applied to all of Arizona and New Mexico combined despite the pine forests which cover much of both states. Often the name is shortened to Southwest leading to some confusion with the other Southwest. And sometimes all four states (Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Arizona) are referred to under the single title of Southwest.
The southwest geographical area of the United States is all that area south of 39 deg. 50' latitude and west of 98 deg. 35' longitude ( [6] or pick your own favorite geographic center of the United States). All those states laying partially of wholly in the area might be considered part of this southwest but it is bound together by no single cultural, historical or other geographical significance.
This is an good point (qualifying what is meant by the Southwest), although I would take issue with the notation that the states of the "original" Southwest (Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana particularly) were considered part of the "West" and not the South. In fact, the opposite was true...although AFTER the War between the States, with the cattle boom and all, Texas came to be considered "western" in many ways. However, the West has never been a coherent cultural region (as opposed to the South, New England, etc), but rather a part of the country largely characterized by post-bellum settlement, so therefore Texas was still considered part of the South for purposes of culture, religion, and history. Texas is simply the South's West.
Texas and Oklahoma are always counted in Southwest. It is always Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Oklahoma
>>Although these four states are often grouped together as the Southwest, they are not culturally nor historically a cohesive region. Many times, it seems more done for geographic convenience than anything else. Texas (sans the El Paso area), and to a lesser extent, Oklahoma, are the western South, while Arizona and New Mexico are the southern West. Sure, there is overlap in some areas, but by and large Texas especially is cut from considerably different cloth than the twin states of the desert Southwest. TexasReb 16:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I concur. Most of Texas and just about every portion of Oklahoma has no cultural tie to Utah, Arizona or Colorado. These two states are the western South. Kryan74 ( talk) 14:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I think Texas itself is in two different regions. From what I hear, Dallas (North Texas), Houston (East Texas) and to a lesser extent Austin (Central Texas) are more similar to the South culturally, while San Antonio (South Texas, though on its northern edge) is more Southwestern. El Paso is definitely Southwestern.
Despite this inclusion of Texas into this region Texas is labeled on the Southern U.S. article as 100% Southern (or Solid red on the map). Yet states like Kentucky while they have a little Midwestern influence have to be striped, hypocricy. Louisvillian 17:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions -- Qirex 05:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I've added an "unreferenced" tag to the page. There are several facts mentioned in the article that are without citation. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of the subject can improve this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adhall ( talk • contribs) 12:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
I'm a little unclear on the distinction between the American West and the American Southwest. But then, maybe the terms were always somewhat ambiguous in the first place. Gringo300 05:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Here in the southwest they have very populaer cities. For example: Las Vegas. That is a part of one of the fastest growing cities in the USA. The west and the southwest are different because the west can be north and south! The south west is only the west south. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.38.72 ( talk) 01:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I've lived in the west (at least according to this article; I don't consider Texas to be part of the west AT ALL, since it is in the center of the country, and has far more in common with the Southern states, and was part of the Confderacy) but I've never heard of OKLAHOMA as part of Southwest. Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Utah (along with California) are in my opinion almost ALWAYS included in the American Southwest. But as a westerner who lived in Arizona his whole life, I've never once outside of Wikipedia heard of Oklahoma as a "Southwestern state". It has very little in common with westerners, and far more in common with Southerners than with, say, Arizona or Colorado. Texas is debatable since El Paso is definitely southwestern, but that's only one city, so in my opinion, it shouldn't be included.
the southwest u.s.a. doesn't belong to the spanish or the aztecs or any other native amerindian peoples living in new spain,aka mexico.if anyone is entitled to the land it's the indigenous amerindians{native americans}who lived in that area in 1491,the year before columbus sailed to the new world under the spanish flag and set off the invasion and conquering of the western hemisphere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.190.51 ( talk) 19:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
You do realize you are using geographic distinctions that had no meaning in 1491 ("Mexico," "New Spain" " Southwest U.S.A.") 66.68.207.59 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:27, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
I noticed that for many of the pages about US regions, there are maps showing which states are regarded as part of those regions. I think it is ridiculous to constrain regions to state boundaries, and the map on this page is great for illustrating my complaint. Texas, Calif., and Nevada are striped to indicate that they are "sometimes" considered part of the Southwest, but I think whoever made the map is confusing "sometimes" with "partly." El Paso is always regarded as Southwest, but Houston never is. Las Vegas is Southwest and Reno isn't. El Centro, Calif. is certainly Southwest, but San Francisco is not. So if states should be striped at all, it should be because of being partly Southwest, not sometimes Southwest (indeed, the latter introduces a temporal element to the state of being part of the Southwest, while my proposed alternative properly changes it to a geographic consideration). So given that states can be regarded as only partly in a region, the question follows, why limit region inclusion to exact state boundaries? Can we not color only the areas of Texas, California, and Nevada that are regarded as Southwest? If the line is hazy, it stands to reason the maps could indicate this visually by graduating the boundaries. Thoughts? Soltras ( talk) 00:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
West Texas is part of the southwest, Oklahoma is part of the Great Plains of the Midwest, as is Northern Texas. East Texas is part of the South and South Texas is South Texas, more part of the Midwest than the Southwest. California is in fact a southwestern state. We in Arizona, the heart of the southwest, do not consider the Great Plains as part of our home, therefore Oklahoma should be excluded as well as Texas (in my opinion). Colorado should be excluded also.
If one is to define the southwest not as whole states it would be as follows:
One more thing, at the intro to this article, it clearly says the Southwest is of hot desert terrain, I have lived in Colorado and was in Northern California a month ago and they are in no way desert regions.
This page needs to be rewritten, the top part mentions all of this information about Texas which is generally not considered part of the region in the first place. -- Az81964444 ( talk) 04:27, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
this is my first time writing on wikipedia so if i break some unspoken norm, please forgive me. As far as this whole southwest page, someone with no clue wrote this. The vegitation? spend a winter in the white mountains of arizona and tell me how one of the largest stands of ponderosa pines in the world is "hot dry desert". Also the wildlife? Some of the largest elk in the United States are found all across northern Arizona and New Mexico. [azcowpuncher] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azcowpuncher ( talk • contribs) 02:00, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Some articles on US regions are fairly well done and could be emulated for breaking this article out into sections (it currently has none). New England is a well organized article. Midwest isn't bad. Most are rather poor. Some ideas on sections for this page:
Other possibilities: Economy, Politics, Culture(s)
I'll at least make sections for the existing text and perhaps expand some, time permitting. Pfly ( talk)
I recently added a new section concerning this topic as I thought it would be very relevant given that the "Southwest" has evolved in meaning and definition over the years, and is still subject to debate over which states do or do not belong, and whether it is a region it its own right, or two different applications (i.e. a Southwest of the South, and a Southwest of the West). I focussed by statements and sources mostly on Texas (and Oklahoma) as those are the two whose history and culture I am most familiar with. However, I am hoping that some others might add to it with information related to other states generally/sometime considered "Southwestern." TexasReb ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC).
The Coming Mega Drought; The southwestern U.S. looks a lot like Australia before its nine-year dry spell by Peter H. Gleick and Matthew Heberger Scientific American January 5, 2012 (page 14 in-print). 97.87.29.188 ( talk) 01:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
This section needs a lot of work. It is very long and unreadable, relies on only one source, and it written poorly so it is difficult to tell what comes from the solitary source and what is original research - especially since there is a lot of weasel writing like "Many people believe", some of which I have removed. There is also just too much of "this state borders this state and that state borders that and that state" - information that someone can clearly see from the map, doesn't need to be reiterated in text. Also some of the claims that certain parts of the Southwest have "links" to other regions of the US smacks of original research and is dubious. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 20:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC) Also, discussion of ethnic groups should be in s"demographics" section, and historical information should be in a history section, not geography. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 21:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Did quite a bit of cleanup that really shortened the section to a more manageable length, so I removed the "too long" template. Also, since I removed the dubious claims that smacked of original research, I also removed the "OR" template. I left the refimprove template as the section still relies on only one source. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 21:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
By all historical definitions, Texas and Oklahoma are part of the West. Both Texas and Oklahoma play a major role in Old Western history so considering them part of the south (for whatever reason) is really incredible. I can understand why people might associate northeastern Texas with the South but as for the rest it was certainly Western in culture, history and atmosphere. Texas is the origional home of the American cowboy and the cowboy is the most popular image that came out of the Old West. The great cattle drives of the West went from Texas north to Kansas (which is a Western/Great Plains state). There were also so many range wars and conflicts with gunfighters and Indians. Also Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California all share a similar culture due to the Spanish colonial/Mexican influence. Texas joining the Confederacy should have nothing to do with any of this, Arizona was part of the Confederacy too but it is by no means a Southern state, just a Western one, or, more specifically, a Southwestern one (there were plenty of Confederate sympathizers in S. California too). It seems some people have failed to recognize the Mississippi River as the natural border between the Eastern and Western States (The South is part of the Eastern states and the Mississippi is usually recognized as the border between East and West, Minnesota and Louisiana are split in half by the river so they aren't really considered western states, especially Louisiana). The first major migration of American settlers west of the Mississippi went to Texas in the 1820s and 1830s (which is rightfully the beginning of the Old West period). Oklahoma is not a Southwestern State but a Midwestern state, a Southern Plains state like Western Texas, meaning part of the Great Plains (where the buffalo roam, the Great Plains are another major area of importance in Old Western history). Even West Texas could be considered part of the Midwest, but if not then part of the Southwest, or both. Overall I'd say Texas is much more of a Western state than an Eastern (Southern) state not only in terms of geography but because of history and culture. I think the map needs to be changed to show this (Texas and Oklahoma should be in red to show they are often considered part of S. West, or, the West in general). Texas is difficult because of its size and its border with the East (Louisiana) but Oklahoma is not and will never be a southern state, culturally, historically, or geographically (its located right in the middle of the freaking county! :). The only reason I can think of why Oklahoma is sometimes (wrongly) considered part of the South is because of the removal of the Eastern Indians there in the first half of the 19th century and the fact that the Indian Territory (Oklahoma) was governed for a time from Fort Smith, Arkansas, maybe I'm wrong? Sure the removal spread Southern Indian culture (including Black Indian culture) but not white culture (that didn't come until the Land rushes of the Old west). If someone is interested in responding please do so here and not on my user page.
PS: There is no article for the Southern Plains so I linked it to the Southern plains buffalo article (I just felt I should leave some reason behind for that:). Also, if you really are interested, make sure you check out the links!
Thanks-- $1LENCE D00600D ( talk) 00:05, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi there, native Texan, took Texas History several times, including at the college level, and read a lot of Texas history and Texana material, traveled extensively throughout the state, even to the Big Bend area that most Texans never see, so thought I'd weigh in here. I have to say that when someone named "TexasReb" says emphatically "Texas is Southern", his handle indicates he may have a preference for the South that is going to slant his opinion. Yes, Texas is Southern. But yes, Texas is also Southwestern. I think in order to answer this question we have to take into account three factors: first is physical location on the map, second is topography/climate/ecology, and third is culture/history.
Texas is ecologically and culturally a complicated state with areas that are more Southern, and areas that are more Southwestern, but with blurry boundaries, and so to deny Texas a place as part of the Southwest is to do both Texas and the Southwest a disservice. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 17:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
popular with tourists." (LOL)
1) This table shows Mesa, Arizona with a 2010 U.S. Census population of 245,628. The correct number is 439,041 according to the referenced link,
2) The header, "Metro Population of 4 aspects." Unable to locate an explanation of what, "4 aspects," is. --formeat 06:10, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Having grown up in the Bay Area, I can testify people in Northern California assume "the Southwest" is somewhere else, probably with cactuses. Unlike maybe some people in East Texas, we wouldn't have been offended at being called Southwesterners, the idea would just never occur to us. If there was any concept of a regional identity, it would've been Redwood Country.
But of course this article isn't about me and my anecdote. I guess geography can be like pop culture articles, where everybody thinks they're an expert and passion is inversely proportional to actual knowledge. Foogus ( talk) 19:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
The article is objectively a mess, contradicting itself from one sentence to the next. High Desert "is synonymous with this region" but then also includes Wyoming. The phrase core southwest is in quote marks but not cited to anything, then there's "five main Southwestern states," then the second-biggest city is outside that list. The rationale for including El Paso and Vegas but not San Antonio or L.A. should probably be explained.
It seems like maybe there was a hard-and-fast definition in an earlier version of the article, that has been removed, but is still implied by the information presented. At this point it reads as if a writer who lives in "Phoenix, the largest metropolitan area in the southwest," is arbitrarily drawing lines around his chosen capital. And that can't be right. Foogus ( talk) 19:29, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi everybody. Dustin V. S. has brought up some very good points in a discussion which was borne out of the five largest cities in the region. When you look at this article, there is little cited material regarding what is or is not included in the somewhat nebulous term, Southwestern United States. According to the Learning Center of the Southwest, the historic definition is that of archeologists, and is not defined by today's state boundaries. It can be found in the fourth paragraph here. The Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research defines it as CA, NV, CO, UT, AZ and TX. Muhlenberg College, which has an extensive program on the SW, limits it to the desert SW states of AZ and NM. American Southwest.net defines it as CA, NV, UT, AZ and NM (although only parts of some of those states).
There are most likely other valuable sources. What I propose is that we reach a consensus on what the basic definition should be, based on source material, not opinion. Once we reach that consensus, I'll volunteer to re-write the whole article. We'd include what variations there are regarding the definition, but we don't go into depth on anything other what we define (again based on source material) as the Southwest. I also think that we should also consider not being bound by current state boundaries. I'm going to invite editors which have contributed to the article over the last year or so, to solicit their opinions: Foogus, Mmyers1976, Texasreb, Jayjg, discospinster, r000t, MusikAnimal, Gilliam, Rjensen, IronGargoyle, Formeat (I went back through this year, other editors, please feel free to tag others who might be interested) - Thoughts? Onel5969 ( talk) 00:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Sounds like a worth endeavor. One well-regarded definition of the American Southwest was proposed by archaelologist Erik K. Reed in 1964. It has its limitations since it is an archaelogical definition and doesn't take into account environment, current culture, or political boundaries, so in an improved article it would have to be at best one of the definitions, but I'll put it out here for consideration:
Citation: Reed, Erik K. 1964. "The Greater Southwest." Pp. 175-191 in Jesse D. Jennings and E. Nordbeck (eds.), Prehistoric Man in the New World. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 19:54, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
simply list the states of modern day which have a "claim" to it. Yet I do think it very important to note the variations (particularly with Texas and, to a lesser extent, Oklahoma) from New Mexico and Arizona, which are Southwestern in every imaginable way, climatically, historically, culturally, etc.
Edited by Joseph Carleton Wilder UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA PRESS THE SOUTHWEST CENTER TUCSON
From The Southwest Defined
There should be much less of an argument regarding the Southwest's eastern and western boundaries. Texans may not like it, but there is no convincing or substantial physical and qualified cultural evidence that the Southwest extends eastward beyond the 104th Meridian West. The Llano Estacado clearly belongs to the Great Plains, and the headwaters of the Canadian and Cimarron rivers roll toward the same direction as does the culture of northeast New Mexico face: eastward. Combined with the Southwest's southern boundary coordinate of 29° N., this border would enclose the western two-thirds of the "horn" of Texas, a region which includes El Paso, one of the most "Southwestern" of all Southwestern towns. ...and that fact plus close historical ties with Mexico, remains the most legitimate-and only-claim the rest of Texas can present as a credential for membership in "the Southwest." And in many other ways Texas simply doesn't qualify, despite such vestigial Hispanic enclaves as San Antonio and Nacogdoches.
Current demographic statistics do not provoke any great revision in determining that area which we can call the "Hispanic Southwest." Place names in southern Texas and California suggest a rich and enduring Hispanic heritage in those two states. But following the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, hordes of white Americans rushed into these Hispanic areas of Texas, and, even though white Americans totally dominated these parts of Texas, they continued to use many existing Spanish place names. Most of California's Spanish place names were designated by Anglo real estate developers in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in an attempt to capitalize commercially on the state's romance that visitors and newcomers to the region found so "quaint" and attractive. A meaningful cultural presence of Hispanic traditions cannot be derived merely from Spanish place names. And other qualifications- primarily physiographic, climatic, and prehistoric-preclude Texas and California from being placed within "the Southwest."
So, I have provided a source with an archaelogically-based delineation of the Southwest, TexasReb provided a source with a general delineation of the Southwest. I would also suggest that a geologic/geographic delineation of the Southwest would be the USGS's Basin and Range Province delineation. http://geomaps.wr.usgs.gov/parks/province/basinrange.html . Along those Lines, I would also say that any areas of the United States which fall into the Chihuahuan and Sonoran Deserts would be in the American Southwest, and therefore they would qualify as ecological boundaries. I think the Mojave Desert would also be part of these ecological boundaries of the American Southwest, with only some minor controversy. Whether the Great Basin Desert qualifies as part of the Southwest is up for grabs. It seems many sources don't agree with this. http://www.desertusa.com/north-american-deserts.html However all American deserts south of the Colorado Plateau are pretty safely Southwest from a review of the sources, so I think it is a contender for Northern ecological boundary of the Southwest. Western Boundary would be the Tehachapi Mountains in California (western boundary of the Mojave) http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~joel/g148_f09/readings/mojave/mojave_desert.html, the US-Mexico Border being the southern boundary, and US Route 385 in Texas being the eastern. http://horizon.nmsu.edu/chihuahua.html. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 21:17, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I also think this map seems to be a fair approximation of the extent of American Southwest that ignores state lines (which I prefer) http://www.southwestlearning.org/maps/lcas Mmyers1976 ( talk) 19:54, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Greetings all. I've put this off long enough, since it is a bear of an attempt. I've begun the edit on a sandbox. Please take a look at:
I've only worked on the lead and the geography section. But I would specifically like you all to take a look at the lead. If we can get consensus on that, I'll go through the article and make it all conform to the lead. I've actually put the bulk of my reasoning into the lead, since I think in this particular article, it's necessary. I would also continue to include a section on the different variations of what constitutes the Southwest, expanding on what is already in the lead, and including the Southwest Center's discussion above. I will also include an historical perspective of the use of the term, as per the discussion above, so that discussion of OK, KS, and most of TX will be dealt with. I haven't made the changes to the actual article, because if someone clicked on the article while it was under construction, it would make little sense, that's why I'm using that sandbox page. I've gone by the reference material, rather than the discussion, in order to determine the scope, since that's more appropriate. Personally, I would have liked to use the LCAS definition, but that seems to be an outlier. Since there are 3 very good attributions, all with the similar scope, that's what I've put into the lead. Thank you all for your time and effort. I'm pinging everyone who commented in the above discussion, but feel free to ping other editors who have worked on the article. ATTENTION:
Mmyers1976,
Viller the Great,
Dustin V. S.,
Texasreb,
Rjensen. Oh, one last thing, please leave comments here, rather than at the sandbox, so we can have all comments in one place. One other thing - The lead as it exists in the sandbox will need to be edited after the entire article is written, so as to reflect the content in the article. What I need you all to look at is how the scope of the article is defined in the lead. That's the consensus I'm looking for. Cheers.
Onel5969
TT me 15:07, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Again, I applaud your hard work and dedication. I'd like to start to sandbox a new Defining the American Southwest article, but right now I'm crunched for time. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 16:37, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
How to reconcile the statement "The Chihuahuan Desert is considered the "most biologically diverse desert in the Western Hemisphere and one of the most diverse in the world"" with the statement "the desert has the most diverse plant life of any desert in the world" in the next section about the Sonoran Desert? So, which desert is number one? אביהו ( talk) 05:55, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Two comments:
אביהו ( talk) 09:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
All those sections deal almost exclusively with what happened in Colorado. More than that, of all the places mentioned in those sections only Gunnison is below the 39th parallel, so they are not part of the Southwest as is defined in the beginning of the article ("the southern portions of Colorado and Utah below the 39th parallel"). Is it possible to describe what happened in the Southwest during World War II, without mentioning Manhattan Project for example? אביהו ( talk) 05:36, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
The High Desert is defined in this section as "the Mojave Desert, which extends from inland southern California into southern Nevada, and southwestern Utah". It is also "extends into other parts of the Northwest, such as the Red Desert in southwestern Wyoming", but this area is outside the scope of the current article which deals with Southwestern United States. Then come the next sentences which explains that the High Desert "can receive very cold temperatures at night in the winter", but "with the exception of California, southern Nevada and southwestern Utah". But those areas comprise the total of the High Deseret in the Southwest according to the definition?? The same holds true about the "decent amount of snowfall in the winter" that the High Desert receives in winter, but again "with the exception of California, southern Nevada and southwestern Utah". אביהו ( talk) 16:43, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I think the image should include all of nm. Greeninventor999 ( talk) 04:34, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
Article Text: "The Southwestern United States (also known as the American Southwest) is a region of the United States which includes Arizona, the western portion of New Mexico, bordered on the east by the Llano Estacado, southern Colorado and Utah below the 39th parallel, the "horn" of Texas below New Mexico, the southernmost triangle of Nevada, and the most southeastern portion of California, which encompasses the Mojave and Colorado Deserts.[2]"
Map Text: Though regional definitions vary from source to source, New Mexico and Arizona (in dark red) are almost always considered the core, modern-day Southwest. The lighter red and striped states may or may not be considered part of this region. The lighter red states are also classified as part of the West by the U.S. Census Bureau, though the striped states are not (Texas and Oklahoma).[1]
The article text states this is what it is and the map states "definitions vary" that is not very reliable. Some of the information is wrong too in both the article and picture. The only Southwestern states are Texas, Arizona, Oklahoma, and New Mexico. The other states aren't Southwest they are just West. Sarahann26125 ( talk) 18:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Surely someone can find sources that avoid taking California and Texas as whole chunks, either Southwest or not-Southwest? It would be odd to leave out Mojave National Preserve, but it's even odder to include Crescent City. On the Texas side, El Paso is pretty clearly Southwest; Beaumont is pretty clearly not. -- Trovatore ( talk) 02:14, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
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At some point, some of the sections got rearranged. As it stands, in the first section there's a sentence "Geographer D. W. Meinig defines the Southwest in a very similar fashion to Reed", but Reed's definition is not given in the article until Origins (section 3).
Speaking of that definition ("Durango to Durango and Las Vegas to Las Vegas"), it would be great if the page could include a map of that, since there are maps included of several other definitions.
Finally, on Wikimedia Commons, someone has edited the map of the region to include Kansas, in a separate color. I don't have a position on whether that edit is correct, but if it stands, the text in the description both in this article and on Commons should be edited to describe that change and the color (presumably because Kansas falls under the Census Bureau's "Midwest" region, as opposed to TX/OK in the South). - JD ( talk) 20:14, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Onel5969: could you clarify why you think the rewording was not an improvement? I found the current lead section difficult to read, and my edits were intended to make it easier for a reader to quickly understand what the Southwestern US is up front. I tried to be careful and not remove or change any information.
I'm aware that my rewording is neither perfect nor the best, but I'd hoped it was a step in the right direction and I was surprised by your revert.
Cheers, Fredlesaltique ( talk) 00:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
To any editor who reads this, I went ahead and reworded the lead section. Old version did not have a simple geographic definition up front, so I added that and made it a little more concise. Moved the detailed demographic information to the relevant section, otherwise didn't remove any (I hope). Please feel free to amend as necessary. Cheers, Fredlesaltique ( talk) 02:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
According to new policy approved by Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. regions this page should be moved to Southwestern United States, and likewise its related sub-articles as well. Thanks. - JCarriker 10:19, May 21, 2005 (UTC)
This article confuses at least three areas that are or may be called the Southwest (and really should be named that instead of generically Southwestern United States). I would suggest someone knowledgeable (not me) break out the various regions from this article or at least put them in separate sections until expanded sufficiently. The suggested regions are as follows: CPret 16:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The original Southwest consisted of those states with ties to the Confederacy but considered part of the West, not part of the South proper (Louisiana, Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, and Indian territory; later Oklahoma). By the latter part of the twentieth century, only Texas and Oklahoma were still considered Southwest. The territorial bands related to the development of Jazz in Kansas City were all based in this region [1], [2], [3]. Honky-tonk music also developed in this region.
Desert Southwest was a name given to the desert areas of the southwestern United States to differentiate it from the previous Southwest. It applied mainly the area covered by the Sonoran Desert of southern Arizona and California and by the Chihuahuan Desert of southwest Texas, southern New Mexico, and southeastern Arizona [4], [5]. It is sometimes applied to all of Arizona and New Mexico combined despite the pine forests which cover much of both states. Often the name is shortened to Southwest leading to some confusion with the other Southwest. And sometimes all four states (Texas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, and Arizona) are referred to under the single title of Southwest.
The southwest geographical area of the United States is all that area south of 39 deg. 50' latitude and west of 98 deg. 35' longitude ( [6] or pick your own favorite geographic center of the United States). All those states laying partially of wholly in the area might be considered part of this southwest but it is bound together by no single cultural, historical or other geographical significance.
This is an good point (qualifying what is meant by the Southwest), although I would take issue with the notation that the states of the "original" Southwest (Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana particularly) were considered part of the "West" and not the South. In fact, the opposite was true...although AFTER the War between the States, with the cattle boom and all, Texas came to be considered "western" in many ways. However, the West has never been a coherent cultural region (as opposed to the South, New England, etc), but rather a part of the country largely characterized by post-bellum settlement, so therefore Texas was still considered part of the South for purposes of culture, religion, and history. Texas is simply the South's West.
Texas and Oklahoma are always counted in Southwest. It is always Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, and Oklahoma
>>Although these four states are often grouped together as the Southwest, they are not culturally nor historically a cohesive region. Many times, it seems more done for geographic convenience than anything else. Texas (sans the El Paso area), and to a lesser extent, Oklahoma, are the western South, while Arizona and New Mexico are the southern West. Sure, there is overlap in some areas, but by and large Texas especially is cut from considerably different cloth than the twin states of the desert Southwest. TexasReb 16:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I concur. Most of Texas and just about every portion of Oklahoma has no cultural tie to Utah, Arizona or Colorado. These two states are the western South. Kryan74 ( talk) 14:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)
I think Texas itself is in two different regions. From what I hear, Dallas (North Texas), Houston (East Texas) and to a lesser extent Austin (Central Texas) are more similar to the South culturally, while San Antonio (South Texas, though on its northern edge) is more Southwestern. El Paso is definitely Southwestern.
Despite this inclusion of Texas into this region Texas is labeled on the Southern U.S. article as 100% Southern (or Solid red on the map). Yet states like Kentucky while they have a little Midwestern influence have to be striped, hypocricy. Louisvillian 17:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions -- Qirex 05:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I've added an "unreferenced" tag to the page. There are several facts mentioned in the article that are without citation. Hopefully someone with more knowledge of the subject can improve this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adhall ( talk • contribs) 12:32, 10 May 2007 (UTC).
I'm a little unclear on the distinction between the American West and the American Southwest. But then, maybe the terms were always somewhat ambiguous in the first place. Gringo300 05:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Here in the southwest they have very populaer cities. For example: Las Vegas. That is a part of one of the fastest growing cities in the USA. The west and the southwest are different because the west can be north and south! The south west is only the west south. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.38.72 ( talk) 01:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I've lived in the west (at least according to this article; I don't consider Texas to be part of the west AT ALL, since it is in the center of the country, and has far more in common with the Southern states, and was part of the Confderacy) but I've never heard of OKLAHOMA as part of Southwest. Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Utah (along with California) are in my opinion almost ALWAYS included in the American Southwest. But as a westerner who lived in Arizona his whole life, I've never once outside of Wikipedia heard of Oklahoma as a "Southwestern state". It has very little in common with westerners, and far more in common with Southerners than with, say, Arizona or Colorado. Texas is debatable since El Paso is definitely southwestern, but that's only one city, so in my opinion, it shouldn't be included.
the southwest u.s.a. doesn't belong to the spanish or the aztecs or any other native amerindian peoples living in new spain,aka mexico.if anyone is entitled to the land it's the indigenous amerindians{native americans}who lived in that area in 1491,the year before columbus sailed to the new world under the spanish flag and set off the invasion and conquering of the western hemisphere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.29.190.51 ( talk) 19:28, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
You do realize you are using geographic distinctions that had no meaning in 1491 ("Mexico," "New Spain" " Southwest U.S.A.") 66.68.207.59 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:27, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
I noticed that for many of the pages about US regions, there are maps showing which states are regarded as part of those regions. I think it is ridiculous to constrain regions to state boundaries, and the map on this page is great for illustrating my complaint. Texas, Calif., and Nevada are striped to indicate that they are "sometimes" considered part of the Southwest, but I think whoever made the map is confusing "sometimes" with "partly." El Paso is always regarded as Southwest, but Houston never is. Las Vegas is Southwest and Reno isn't. El Centro, Calif. is certainly Southwest, but San Francisco is not. So if states should be striped at all, it should be because of being partly Southwest, not sometimes Southwest (indeed, the latter introduces a temporal element to the state of being part of the Southwest, while my proposed alternative properly changes it to a geographic consideration). So given that states can be regarded as only partly in a region, the question follows, why limit region inclusion to exact state boundaries? Can we not color only the areas of Texas, California, and Nevada that are regarded as Southwest? If the line is hazy, it stands to reason the maps could indicate this visually by graduating the boundaries. Thoughts? Soltras ( talk) 00:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
West Texas is part of the southwest, Oklahoma is part of the Great Plains of the Midwest, as is Northern Texas. East Texas is part of the South and South Texas is South Texas, more part of the Midwest than the Southwest. California is in fact a southwestern state. We in Arizona, the heart of the southwest, do not consider the Great Plains as part of our home, therefore Oklahoma should be excluded as well as Texas (in my opinion). Colorado should be excluded also.
If one is to define the southwest not as whole states it would be as follows:
One more thing, at the intro to this article, it clearly says the Southwest is of hot desert terrain, I have lived in Colorado and was in Northern California a month ago and they are in no way desert regions.
This page needs to be rewritten, the top part mentions all of this information about Texas which is generally not considered part of the region in the first place. -- Az81964444 ( talk) 04:27, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
this is my first time writing on wikipedia so if i break some unspoken norm, please forgive me. As far as this whole southwest page, someone with no clue wrote this. The vegitation? spend a winter in the white mountains of arizona and tell me how one of the largest stands of ponderosa pines in the world is "hot dry desert". Also the wildlife? Some of the largest elk in the United States are found all across northern Arizona and New Mexico. [azcowpuncher] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azcowpuncher ( talk • contribs) 02:00, 1 April 2011 (UTC)
Some articles on US regions are fairly well done and could be emulated for breaking this article out into sections (it currently has none). New England is a well organized article. Midwest isn't bad. Most are rather poor. Some ideas on sections for this page:
Other possibilities: Economy, Politics, Culture(s)
I'll at least make sections for the existing text and perhaps expand some, time permitting. Pfly ( talk)
I recently added a new section concerning this topic as I thought it would be very relevant given that the "Southwest" has evolved in meaning and definition over the years, and is still subject to debate over which states do or do not belong, and whether it is a region it its own right, or two different applications (i.e. a Southwest of the South, and a Southwest of the West). I focussed by statements and sources mostly on Texas (and Oklahoma) as those are the two whose history and culture I am most familiar with. However, I am hoping that some others might add to it with information related to other states generally/sometime considered "Southwestern." TexasReb ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC).
The Coming Mega Drought; The southwestern U.S. looks a lot like Australia before its nine-year dry spell by Peter H. Gleick and Matthew Heberger Scientific American January 5, 2012 (page 14 in-print). 97.87.29.188 ( talk) 01:25, 4 January 2012 (UTC)
This section needs a lot of work. It is very long and unreadable, relies on only one source, and it written poorly so it is difficult to tell what comes from the solitary source and what is original research - especially since there is a lot of weasel writing like "Many people believe", some of which I have removed. There is also just too much of "this state borders this state and that state borders that and that state" - information that someone can clearly see from the map, doesn't need to be reiterated in text. Also some of the claims that certain parts of the Southwest have "links" to other regions of the US smacks of original research and is dubious. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 20:59, 10 January 2012 (UTC) Also, discussion of ethnic groups should be in s"demographics" section, and historical information should be in a history section, not geography. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 21:01, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Did quite a bit of cleanup that really shortened the section to a more manageable length, so I removed the "too long" template. Also, since I removed the dubious claims that smacked of original research, I also removed the "OR" template. I left the refimprove template as the section still relies on only one source. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 21:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
By all historical definitions, Texas and Oklahoma are part of the West. Both Texas and Oklahoma play a major role in Old Western history so considering them part of the south (for whatever reason) is really incredible. I can understand why people might associate northeastern Texas with the South but as for the rest it was certainly Western in culture, history and atmosphere. Texas is the origional home of the American cowboy and the cowboy is the most popular image that came out of the Old West. The great cattle drives of the West went from Texas north to Kansas (which is a Western/Great Plains state). There were also so many range wars and conflicts with gunfighters and Indians. Also Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California all share a similar culture due to the Spanish colonial/Mexican influence. Texas joining the Confederacy should have nothing to do with any of this, Arizona was part of the Confederacy too but it is by no means a Southern state, just a Western one, or, more specifically, a Southwestern one (there were plenty of Confederate sympathizers in S. California too). It seems some people have failed to recognize the Mississippi River as the natural border between the Eastern and Western States (The South is part of the Eastern states and the Mississippi is usually recognized as the border between East and West, Minnesota and Louisiana are split in half by the river so they aren't really considered western states, especially Louisiana). The first major migration of American settlers west of the Mississippi went to Texas in the 1820s and 1830s (which is rightfully the beginning of the Old West period). Oklahoma is not a Southwestern State but a Midwestern state, a Southern Plains state like Western Texas, meaning part of the Great Plains (where the buffalo roam, the Great Plains are another major area of importance in Old Western history). Even West Texas could be considered part of the Midwest, but if not then part of the Southwest, or both. Overall I'd say Texas is much more of a Western state than an Eastern (Southern) state not only in terms of geography but because of history and culture. I think the map needs to be changed to show this (Texas and Oklahoma should be in red to show they are often considered part of S. West, or, the West in general). Texas is difficult because of its size and its border with the East (Louisiana) but Oklahoma is not and will never be a southern state, culturally, historically, or geographically (its located right in the middle of the freaking county! :). The only reason I can think of why Oklahoma is sometimes (wrongly) considered part of the South is because of the removal of the Eastern Indians there in the first half of the 19th century and the fact that the Indian Territory (Oklahoma) was governed for a time from Fort Smith, Arkansas, maybe I'm wrong? Sure the removal spread Southern Indian culture (including Black Indian culture) but not white culture (that didn't come until the Land rushes of the Old west). If someone is interested in responding please do so here and not on my user page.
PS: There is no article for the Southern Plains so I linked it to the Southern plains buffalo article (I just felt I should leave some reason behind for that:). Also, if you really are interested, make sure you check out the links!
Thanks-- $1LENCE D00600D ( talk) 00:05, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Hi there, native Texan, took Texas History several times, including at the college level, and read a lot of Texas history and Texana material, traveled extensively throughout the state, even to the Big Bend area that most Texans never see, so thought I'd weigh in here. I have to say that when someone named "TexasReb" says emphatically "Texas is Southern", his handle indicates he may have a preference for the South that is going to slant his opinion. Yes, Texas is Southern. But yes, Texas is also Southwestern. I think in order to answer this question we have to take into account three factors: first is physical location on the map, second is topography/climate/ecology, and third is culture/history.
Texas is ecologically and culturally a complicated state with areas that are more Southern, and areas that are more Southwestern, but with blurry boundaries, and so to deny Texas a place as part of the Southwest is to do both Texas and the Southwest a disservice. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 17:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
popular with tourists." (LOL)
1) This table shows Mesa, Arizona with a 2010 U.S. Census population of 245,628. The correct number is 439,041 according to the referenced link,
2) The header, "Metro Population of 4 aspects." Unable to locate an explanation of what, "4 aspects," is. --formeat 06:10, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Having grown up in the Bay Area, I can testify people in Northern California assume "the Southwest" is somewhere else, probably with cactuses. Unlike maybe some people in East Texas, we wouldn't have been offended at being called Southwesterners, the idea would just never occur to us. If there was any concept of a regional identity, it would've been Redwood Country.
But of course this article isn't about me and my anecdote. I guess geography can be like pop culture articles, where everybody thinks they're an expert and passion is inversely proportional to actual knowledge. Foogus ( talk) 19:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
The article is objectively a mess, contradicting itself from one sentence to the next. High Desert "is synonymous with this region" but then also includes Wyoming. The phrase core southwest is in quote marks but not cited to anything, then there's "five main Southwestern states," then the second-biggest city is outside that list. The rationale for including El Paso and Vegas but not San Antonio or L.A. should probably be explained.
It seems like maybe there was a hard-and-fast definition in an earlier version of the article, that has been removed, but is still implied by the information presented. At this point it reads as if a writer who lives in "Phoenix, the largest metropolitan area in the southwest," is arbitrarily drawing lines around his chosen capital. And that can't be right. Foogus ( talk) 19:29, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi everybody. Dustin V. S. has brought up some very good points in a discussion which was borne out of the five largest cities in the region. When you look at this article, there is little cited material regarding what is or is not included in the somewhat nebulous term, Southwestern United States. According to the Learning Center of the Southwest, the historic definition is that of archeologists, and is not defined by today's state boundaries. It can be found in the fourth paragraph here. The Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research defines it as CA, NV, CO, UT, AZ and TX. Muhlenberg College, which has an extensive program on the SW, limits it to the desert SW states of AZ and NM. American Southwest.net defines it as CA, NV, UT, AZ and NM (although only parts of some of those states).
There are most likely other valuable sources. What I propose is that we reach a consensus on what the basic definition should be, based on source material, not opinion. Once we reach that consensus, I'll volunteer to re-write the whole article. We'd include what variations there are regarding the definition, but we don't go into depth on anything other what we define (again based on source material) as the Southwest. I also think that we should also consider not being bound by current state boundaries. I'm going to invite editors which have contributed to the article over the last year or so, to solicit their opinions: Foogus, Mmyers1976, Texasreb, Jayjg, discospinster, r000t, MusikAnimal, Gilliam, Rjensen, IronGargoyle, Formeat (I went back through this year, other editors, please feel free to tag others who might be interested) - Thoughts? Onel5969 ( talk) 00:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Sounds like a worth endeavor. One well-regarded definition of the American Southwest was proposed by archaelologist Erik K. Reed in 1964. It has its limitations since it is an archaelogical definition and doesn't take into account environment, current culture, or political boundaries, so in an improved article it would have to be at best one of the definitions, but I'll put it out here for consideration:
Citation: Reed, Erik K. 1964. "The Greater Southwest." Pp. 175-191 in Jesse D. Jennings and E. Nordbeck (eds.), Prehistoric Man in the New World. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 19:54, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
simply list the states of modern day which have a "claim" to it. Yet I do think it very important to note the variations (particularly with Texas and, to a lesser extent, Oklahoma) from New Mexico and Arizona, which are Southwestern in every imaginable way, climatically, historically, culturally, etc.
Edited by Joseph Carleton Wilder UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA PRESS THE SOUTHWEST CENTER TUCSON
From The Southwest Defined
There should be much less of an argument regarding the Southwest's eastern and western boundaries. Texans may not like it, but there is no convincing or substantial physical and qualified cultural evidence that the Southwest extends eastward beyond the 104th Meridian West. The Llano Estacado clearly belongs to the Great Plains, and the headwaters of the Canadian and Cimarron rivers roll toward the same direction as does the culture of northeast New Mexico face: eastward. Combined with the Southwest's southern boundary coordinate of 29° N., this border would enclose the western two-thirds of the "horn" of Texas, a region which includes El Paso, one of the most "Southwestern" of all Southwestern towns. ...and that fact plus close historical ties with Mexico, remains the most legitimate-and only-claim the rest of Texas can present as a credential for membership in "the Southwest." And in many other ways Texas simply doesn't qualify, despite such vestigial Hispanic enclaves as San Antonio and Nacogdoches.
Current demographic statistics do not provoke any great revision in determining that area which we can call the "Hispanic Southwest." Place names in southern Texas and California suggest a rich and enduring Hispanic heritage in those two states. But following the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, hordes of white Americans rushed into these Hispanic areas of Texas, and, even though white Americans totally dominated these parts of Texas, they continued to use many existing Spanish place names. Most of California's Spanish place names were designated by Anglo real estate developers in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries in an attempt to capitalize commercially on the state's romance that visitors and newcomers to the region found so "quaint" and attractive. A meaningful cultural presence of Hispanic traditions cannot be derived merely from Spanish place names. And other qualifications- primarily physiographic, climatic, and prehistoric-preclude Texas and California from being placed within "the Southwest."
So, I have provided a source with an archaelogically-based delineation of the Southwest, TexasReb provided a source with a general delineation of the Southwest. I would also suggest that a geologic/geographic delineation of the Southwest would be the USGS's Basin and Range Province delineation. http://geomaps.wr.usgs.gov/parks/province/basinrange.html . Along those Lines, I would also say that any areas of the United States which fall into the Chihuahuan and Sonoran Deserts would be in the American Southwest, and therefore they would qualify as ecological boundaries. I think the Mojave Desert would also be part of these ecological boundaries of the American Southwest, with only some minor controversy. Whether the Great Basin Desert qualifies as part of the Southwest is up for grabs. It seems many sources don't agree with this. http://www.desertusa.com/north-american-deserts.html However all American deserts south of the Colorado Plateau are pretty safely Southwest from a review of the sources, so I think it is a contender for Northern ecological boundary of the Southwest. Western Boundary would be the Tehachapi Mountains in California (western boundary of the Mojave) http://www.geog.ucsb.edu/~joel/g148_f09/readings/mojave/mojave_desert.html, the US-Mexico Border being the southern boundary, and US Route 385 in Texas being the eastern. http://horizon.nmsu.edu/chihuahua.html. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 21:17, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I also think this map seems to be a fair approximation of the extent of American Southwest that ignores state lines (which I prefer) http://www.southwestlearning.org/maps/lcas Mmyers1976 ( talk) 19:54, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Greetings all. I've put this off long enough, since it is a bear of an attempt. I've begun the edit on a sandbox. Please take a look at:
I've only worked on the lead and the geography section. But I would specifically like you all to take a look at the lead. If we can get consensus on that, I'll go through the article and make it all conform to the lead. I've actually put the bulk of my reasoning into the lead, since I think in this particular article, it's necessary. I would also continue to include a section on the different variations of what constitutes the Southwest, expanding on what is already in the lead, and including the Southwest Center's discussion above. I will also include an historical perspective of the use of the term, as per the discussion above, so that discussion of OK, KS, and most of TX will be dealt with. I haven't made the changes to the actual article, because if someone clicked on the article while it was under construction, it would make little sense, that's why I'm using that sandbox page. I've gone by the reference material, rather than the discussion, in order to determine the scope, since that's more appropriate. Personally, I would have liked to use the LCAS definition, but that seems to be an outlier. Since there are 3 very good attributions, all with the similar scope, that's what I've put into the lead. Thank you all for your time and effort. I'm pinging everyone who commented in the above discussion, but feel free to ping other editors who have worked on the article. ATTENTION:
Mmyers1976,
Viller the Great,
Dustin V. S.,
Texasreb,
Rjensen. Oh, one last thing, please leave comments here, rather than at the sandbox, so we can have all comments in one place. One other thing - The lead as it exists in the sandbox will need to be edited after the entire article is written, so as to reflect the content in the article. What I need you all to look at is how the scope of the article is defined in the lead. That's the consensus I'm looking for. Cheers.
Onel5969
TT me 15:07, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
Again, I applaud your hard work and dedication. I'd like to start to sandbox a new Defining the American Southwest article, but right now I'm crunched for time. Mmyers1976 ( talk) 16:37, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
How to reconcile the statement "The Chihuahuan Desert is considered the "most biologically diverse desert in the Western Hemisphere and one of the most diverse in the world"" with the statement "the desert has the most diverse plant life of any desert in the world" in the next section about the Sonoran Desert? So, which desert is number one? אביהו ( talk) 05:55, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Two comments:
אביהו ( talk) 09:07, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
All those sections deal almost exclusively with what happened in Colorado. More than that, of all the places mentioned in those sections only Gunnison is below the 39th parallel, so they are not part of the Southwest as is defined in the beginning of the article ("the southern portions of Colorado and Utah below the 39th parallel"). Is it possible to describe what happened in the Southwest during World War II, without mentioning Manhattan Project for example? אביהו ( talk) 05:36, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
The High Desert is defined in this section as "the Mojave Desert, which extends from inland southern California into southern Nevada, and southwestern Utah". It is also "extends into other parts of the Northwest, such as the Red Desert in southwestern Wyoming", but this area is outside the scope of the current article which deals with Southwestern United States. Then come the next sentences which explains that the High Desert "can receive very cold temperatures at night in the winter", but "with the exception of California, southern Nevada and southwestern Utah". But those areas comprise the total of the High Deseret in the Southwest according to the definition?? The same holds true about the "decent amount of snowfall in the winter" that the High Desert receives in winter, but again "with the exception of California, southern Nevada and southwestern Utah". אביהו ( talk) 16:43, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I think the image should include all of nm. Greeninventor999 ( talk) 04:34, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
Article Text: "The Southwestern United States (also known as the American Southwest) is a region of the United States which includes Arizona, the western portion of New Mexico, bordered on the east by the Llano Estacado, southern Colorado and Utah below the 39th parallel, the "horn" of Texas below New Mexico, the southernmost triangle of Nevada, and the most southeastern portion of California, which encompasses the Mojave and Colorado Deserts.[2]"
Map Text: Though regional definitions vary from source to source, New Mexico and Arizona (in dark red) are almost always considered the core, modern-day Southwest. The lighter red and striped states may or may not be considered part of this region. The lighter red states are also classified as part of the West by the U.S. Census Bureau, though the striped states are not (Texas and Oklahoma).[1]
The article text states this is what it is and the map states "definitions vary" that is not very reliable. Some of the information is wrong too in both the article and picture. The only Southwestern states are Texas, Arizona, Oklahoma, and New Mexico. The other states aren't Southwest they are just West. Sarahann26125 ( talk) 18:14, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Surely someone can find sources that avoid taking California and Texas as whole chunks, either Southwest or not-Southwest? It would be odd to leave out Mojave National Preserve, but it's even odder to include Crescent City. On the Texas side, El Paso is pretty clearly Southwest; Beaumont is pretty clearly not. -- Trovatore ( talk) 02:14, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
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At some point, some of the sections got rearranged. As it stands, in the first section there's a sentence "Geographer D. W. Meinig defines the Southwest in a very similar fashion to Reed", but Reed's definition is not given in the article until Origins (section 3).
Speaking of that definition ("Durango to Durango and Las Vegas to Las Vegas"), it would be great if the page could include a map of that, since there are maps included of several other definitions.
Finally, on Wikimedia Commons, someone has edited the map of the region to include Kansas, in a separate color. I don't have a position on whether that edit is correct, but if it stands, the text in the description both in this article and on Commons should be edited to describe that change and the color (presumably because Kansas falls under the Census Bureau's "Midwest" region, as opposed to TX/OK in the South). - JD ( talk) 20:14, 15 December 2020 (UTC)
@ Onel5969: could you clarify why you think the rewording was not an improvement? I found the current lead section difficult to read, and my edits were intended to make it easier for a reader to quickly understand what the Southwestern US is up front. I tried to be careful and not remove or change any information.
I'm aware that my rewording is neither perfect nor the best, but I'd hoped it was a step in the right direction and I was surprised by your revert.
Cheers, Fredlesaltique ( talk) 00:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
To any editor who reads this, I went ahead and reworded the lead section. Old version did not have a simple geographic definition up front, so I added that and made it a little more concise. Moved the detailed demographic information to the relevant section, otherwise didn't remove any (I hope). Please feel free to amend as necessary. Cheers, Fredlesaltique ( talk) 02:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)