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This article is written in South African English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 09:51, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost has been removing 'nonsense' left right and centre from this article, rendering it rather dead. Rather than going at it with a machete, perhaps some of the value could be restored, but in a way that meets Ghost's high standards. As an ignorant reader, I can understand "pawk the kaw dahwn tahwn", not the IPA. Now the IPA may be definitive for the experts, but a casual reader can't understand it, and can understand "pawk the kaw dahwn tahwn". I personally know people who sound like this. All the disclaimers for the purist can be put in place, but cutting it out has taken value from the article.
Similarly, *work → weck — /wɛk/, which Ghost has excised. I personally know someone who pronounces the word work like 'weck'. So it's not nonsense. Fix the IPA if it's wrong. Add whatever clarifications about this - but stop removing everything! Greenman 08:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, so here's what I'm thinking - I don't think the "pidgins" that Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa-speakers use (which is, for a start, not a specific thing - people who's home language is Venda, for example, range in English proficiency from being indecipherable to not sounding any different to an Anglo-African when speaking) count as South African English at all. They're just incorrect. You don't tell someone who speaks French badly that he's using a different dialect of French; he's just not speaking it properly. Likewise, South African English is the English which is spoken by South Africans whose home language is English, or by those who speak it as well as those English-speaking South Africans. Such things as confusing "he" and "she", or "I can like to wear a jean pant" (to quote Jeremy Mansfield) are not English. What's everyones' take on this? Can I delete that paragraph? Joziboy 07:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, what's with the we-sound-like-upper-class-Brits rubbish? The South African accent is nothing like the upper class British accent. Joziboy 15:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree with Joziboy here, I'm afraid.
— The typical ESSAn accent is nothing like the "upper-class British accent", unless what you mean by that is some sort of false SA notion of what the UCB accent must sound like.
— Whilst it is true that SA English generally has a deeply exaggerated [AW] sound in the above examples (park = "bawk") and that most ESSAns say off as in "awful", rather than as in "offal", similarities such as these (with a certain type of toff accent) are coincidental (and not that similar to the ear in any case) (convergent evolution, you might say) and there are in fact vastly more deep differences than superficial similarities.
— The ESSAn accent had its clear origins among the English speakers in the British colonial settlements of the E. Cape in 1820 and of Natal 1840s. (Incidentally, it's surprising how many ESSAns can trace their antecedents to these two groups of settlers, in spite of all the later settlements, such as a not insubstantial number of British settlers over the period 1945 to 1948 and a steady flow through the 1950s-mid-70s.)
— The point is the two floods of 19th-century British settlers were made up mostly of simple rural farming or small-town working people (NOT boatloads of exiled aristoctrats and royals!) and what's more, mostly from non-SE-England, i.e., from Yorkshire and Lancashire, the West Country, and also Scots and Welsh -- all with very distinct accents (and dialects) that were far removed from the toffish UCB accents.
— There have of course been other substantial influences on the ESSAn accent since then, such as the Yiddish-German-speaking Jewish Lithuanians, who settled in towns in the early 20th century: their influence on the distinctive "Joburg" accent, as following generations acquired English as their native tongue, hasn't received enough attention.
— And then, least of all (and this is where I also agree with many commenters protesting about the poor quality of this article in broadly confusing native-SAEnglish/ESSAns with non-native-English speakers and their languages)… least of all there have been slighter and varied influences by contact with speakers of these other languages – Dutch, Afrikaans, Nguni languages, Portuguese, etc – with whom ESSAns have interacted over the past 180-odd years.
— But remember, this history of ESSAns (and all peoples there) has been characterised by adversarialism, rivalry, cycles of dominance-oppression and (micro-)geographical separation, factors that would favour cultural enclavism and discourage cultural (and linguistic) cross-fertilization. (For goodness sake, far from being convinced by lists of loans words between, for example, SAEnglish and Afrikaans, to draw specious conclusions about close liguistic miscegenation and co-evolution, it's astounding how few loan words and other linguistic influences there are between SAEnglish and the other languages it has cohabited with for nearly two centuries.) Brockle 15:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Baxelele, LSD, laba abantu baphum'eKoloni, baxelele! Abaqondi ukuba bathetha ngantoni-na! Zyxoas ( talk to me - I'll listen) 16:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Haha, ehhe! Siyazi ukuthi iKoloni alineNingizimu Afrika... mhlawumbe bakhuluma isiNgisi saseNgilandi laphaya :) Joziboy 22:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Nawe uyabona? Kudala ndikuxele ngalaba abantu! Zyxoas ( talk to me - I'll listen) 22:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
The similarities between New Zealand English and Natal English is surely due to the 1840's immigration to both places from practically the same source populations in Britain. Roger ( talk) 09:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I have doubts about the assertion that Eastern Cape English is the regional variation most influenced by Afrikaans. Thanks to the 1820 settlers, the Eastern Cape is the part of SA where English has been longest established - it's this, rather than any Afrikaans influence, that I thought was responsible for the characteristically broad Eastern Cape accent.
More generally, I think the influence of Afrikaans on South African English is overstated. Looking at the examples given in the article: "Are you coming with?" is recognisably derived from "kom jy saam?". But I fail to see the Afrikaans influence on a phrase like or "do you know who I am". "Just now" in English may correspond to "net nou" or "nou die dag" in Afrikaans - but these are colloquial Afrikaans, and you could just as well argue that it's a case of Afrikaans being influenced by SA English as one of SAE being influenced by Afrikaans.
The rather flexible use of "now / now-now / just now" by South Africans does however reflect usage in other parts of the continent. "Sasa" in Swahili, "soon" in East African English, or "já" in Angolan Portuguese can all mean anything from "now" to an indeterminite time in the future.
Yes, nameless, I strongly agree with your general assertions here, wrt ECape English and wrt the influence generally of Afrikaans on SA English. Please see my lengthy comments in the section above (the section with the somewhat irrelevant title "Pidgin versions").
Brockle 15:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I found this interesting article http://www.roepstem.net/sa-english.html (Unfortunately it is in Dutch, but is understandable for Afrikaans speakers) Roger ( talk) 20:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I think afrikaans influenced the word boom slang. This could maybe be added to the "Contributions to English Worldwide" section. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.5.112 ( talk) 19:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
cites of the country —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.60.40 ( talk) 01:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. I was genuinely curious about this dialect. Then I realized that this is one of the worst dialect articles on Wikipedia. The phonology section needs to be much larger. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 05:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
It certainly does, this article makes little sense to an English Speaking South African like myself. Travsuth ( talk) 03:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
"Afrikaans words like "Jirre", "Jisses", "Jislaaik" are common even amongst Anglo-Africans." But what do they mean? 203.59.214.105 ( talk) 04:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I actually think they should be removed. And they are not common amongst Anglo-Africans with manners. Mosheroni ( talk) 12:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
"Some words peculiar to South African English include 'takkies', 'tackie' or 'tekkie' for sneakers (American) or trainers (British), 'combi' or 'kombi' for a small van, 'bakkie' for a pick-up truck, 'kiff' for pleasurable, 'lekker' for nice, 'donga' for ditch and 'jol' for party."
Okay, I know from studying German that 'Kombi' is a word used there for a small van, and 'lecker' is 'delicious,' which I would think is considered more-or-less equivalent to 'nice.' Something tells me that there is no way these two words are NOT Dutch/Afrikaans loanwords -- citation for this assertion . . . ?
63.165.88.230 ( talk) 00:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
~ 2601:441:4400:1740:DDB7:D288:9240:6159 ( talk) 02:42, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
It appears to be common in some varieties of South African English to use inversion in indirect/embedded questions (I don't know when is the plane going to land, We need to create awareness of what is autism). I've found online sources for this in Indian [1] and black [2] varieties of South African English, but I'd like a more comprehensive account of its distribution. (Here's a white South African using this construction: [3].) This is apparently a common feature of World Englishes and L2 speakers of English in general. Is the 'standard' English pattern (I don't know when the plane is going to land, We need to create awareness of what autism is) common in some varieties of South African English? Chris Johnson ( talk) 16:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a cultivated variety of South African English. One of my teachers seems to speak it. I couldn't describe it to you phonetically right now, but it sounds a lot like RP to my ears. It doesn't sound like stereotypical South African English. Thegryseone ( talk) 22:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that everything is America's fault. Thegryseone ( talk) 01:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
The article devotes too much attention to Malan's book which is a humorous look at low income Afrikaans speaking people in a few northern suburbs of Cape Town attempting to speak English. Such "English" is hardly representative of Cape Town English let alone South African English, in fact despite being a Cape Town English speaker myself I can't even understand the title of the book. Imagine if someone stuffed an article on British English with info on a book on how English is pronounced by Panjabi's in Brick Lane. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 23:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Its a real shame that in such a mature article the column for SA English is completely blank!!! Unfortunately I don't know IPA well enough to do it myself. Roger ( talk) 00:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
\
Another L1 speaker of Tripe-lish bites the dust. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 17:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
He didn't say they're not worthy of inclusion. He, and I, said that unless otherwise stated, language articles can be assumed to describe the dialect spoken by L1 mother tongue speakers. L2 varieties may be mentioned, or even given their own articles, but it's just unnecessary to qualify the main article's title to explicitely state that it's refering to L1.
I'm assuming here that by "white" he meant first-language English speaking, which is fallacious on at least two counts (the qualifier is neither a necessary condition nor a sufficient condition), either for L1 speech or (the less strict claim) merely for speaking with the accent outlined her, as outlined above by other editors. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 06:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes. And then he got banned.
Not only is it not necessary to be "white" to speak L1 English as he seemed to believe (with his arguments about Ebonics) as many non-"white" are first language English speakers, it's also not sufficient as most "white" South Africans aren't even first language English speakers. His strawman arguments were also not impressive. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 08:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
The positive result of the rejected move proposal is that the proposer (despite errors and flawed judgement) has left the article with the beginning of a desparately needed section on phonology. It needs cleaning up and expanding.
About the quote from a textbook, the following comment: It is only one quote from one book. It is not quoted from a stone tablet brought down from the sacred mountain by the prophet. Roger ( talk) 11:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The edits that were recently reverted are correct observations, tune is not pronounced choon in South African English nor is dune pronouced as june which is what the article essentially says if you understand IPA, "choon" might be used as a comical exaggeration of an Afrikaans accent but first language speakers always say "tyoon" and "dyoon" (as opposed to American "toon" and "doon"). The description of South African voiceless stops as unaspirated is also technically wrong as pointed out in the edit comment, Xhosa p, t, k would be examples of unaspirated voiceless stops but neither first language English speakers in SA nor people with a Xhosa accent pronounce English p, t, k as unaspirated, first language speakers pronounce them typically with weak aspiration or sometimes moderate aspiration while people with a Xhosa accent pronounce them strongly aspirated like the Xhosa ph, th, kh sounds. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 23:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Questionable:
This lexicon influenced British English through soldiers returning from the Boer War and through returning British settlers with a significant number of Afrikaner settlers who left the Union of South Africa in 1931.
Highly questionable:
South African lexicon enriched the British lexicon more by the arrival of white South African settlers of both British and Afrikaner descent who left their home country in 1994.
Really? This suggests that British people now say 'howzit', 'you coming with', 'braai', and 'just now' - the only people in the UK I know I do are South Africans and Zimbabweans! As for the use of the word 'settlers', please - people who came to the UK from South Africa were migrants! Quiensabe ( talk) 10:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I'll explain why I'm asking if you want, but now I'll get straight to the point:
In your opinion, is the following question easily answerable in one word, or does it depend?
In South African English, what's " Association football" called?
Chrisrus ( talk) 04:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
The article says that SA English uses 'highway' instead of 'motorway'. This is totally false! In SA Motorways and highways are different things! Motorways tend to be mid-sized, whilst highways are bigger and go further. Thus they do use the term 'motorway'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jemappelleungarcon ( talk • contribs) 03:13, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The references such as "Lass (2002)" and "Lanham (1967:14)" are incomplete - no bibliographic details are given. These sources are the basis of most of the article so fixing it is really important. Roger ( talk) 11:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
The "Lanham (1967)" source still has no bibliographic details! Roger (Dodger67) ( talk) 18:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
some south africans don't say are e.g. in johannesburg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.228.211.218 ( talk) 06:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Most of this article consists of unsourced statements, and the article has been flagged as such since 2007. I'm guessing that it seems a pity to cut out the majority of the text. Does anyone have sources? Totorotroll ( talk) 15:46, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I also think that a lot needs further research and investigation, once reliable sources are found. Words supposedly "peculiar" to South African English are generally loaned from other languages, eg Afrikaans and Zulu/Xhosa, in the case of "lekker" and "donga" respectively. Totorotroll ( talk) 15:49, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm strongly against that table, as its sources aren't fully clear (I know what they are, but the readers, most likely, don't) and it's too easy to alter without anyone noticing (I can see that [ a found in Johannesburg by Bekker (2008) just got deleted, and that's unacceptable). Let's just have a massive vowel section without any tables, though much of what we have now is a copy-paste from Bowerman (2004) and needs to go. Peter238 ( talk) 06:44, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
(deleted; see the article)
I came to this article with the specific purpose to find out what differences in spelling, if any, there are between SAE and BE, and found nothing. I think other readers might be interested too. Do they simply use BE in writing? FunkMonk ( talk) 06:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, I was looking for an explanation of whether British or American spellings are used, or some combination thereof, as in Canada. The Sandton City article, for example, is written with US spelling. Can someone clarify? Ground Zero | t 13:40, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
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I noticed that this article has not been discussed in awhile. I plan to edit it for a class project, and I just wanted to throw a few ideas out there. First, I plan to make sure that any uncited information is either corroborated or removed. I also want to organize the leading section better so the whole article follows more smoothly from this intro. This will likely involve giving the different types of South African English their own section instead of keeping them in the first paragraph. I also plan to add sections on Grammar, History, and Geographical Distribution and update any old statistics. Additionally, I plan to include a discussion on the social function(s) of South African English and its varieties, if such information exists. I found some preliminary academic sources to start my work:
Branford, William. A Hand-Held Dictionary of South African English: Some Problems of English Lexicography in a Multilingual Context. , 1978, ProQuest, http://ezproxy.library.arizona.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.ezproxy2.library.arizona.edu/docview/58084164?accountid=8360.
BROOKES, H. (2004), A Repertoire of South African Quotable Gestures. Journal of Linguistic Anthropology, 14: 186–224. doi:10.1525/jlin.2004.14.2.186
“English in Africa.” English in Africa, vol. 5, no. 1, 1978, pp. 80–81. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238421.
Murphy, M. L. "Defining People: Race and Ethnicity in South African English Dictionaries." International Journal of Lexicography, vol. 11, no. 1, 1998, pp. 1-33, ProQuest, http://ezproxy.library.arizona.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.ezproxy2.library.arizona.edu/docview/58338129?accountid=8360.
Silva, Penny. “The 1820 Settlement: Some Aspects of Its Influence on the Vocabulary of South African English.” English in Africa, vol. 5, no. 1, 1978, pp. 61–70. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238417.
Taylor, Tim. “Anthropological Linguistics.” Anthropological Linguistics, vol. 36, no. 4, 1994, pp. 521–524. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/30028394.
Watts, H. L. “English in Africa.” English in Africa, vol. 7, no. 2, 1980, pp. 90–91. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238480.
If anyone has any input, I'd love to hear your thoughts! Sparks9714 ( talk) 18:36, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 1 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zohaib Alvi, Zabdu2, Lramir54, Tytygo ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: Dquin3, Marlem J., Bguti2, Umnawahal, Brian redmond jr, Lexxdavv, Jlia22, Iur444.
— Assignment last updated by UICLing ( talk) 10:56, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Students: Respond to your peer feedback by posting what changes you will make and what should be made to the article based on your peers' suggestions. Click "reply" below to respond. @ Zohaib Alvi, @ Zabdu2, @ Lramir54, @ Tytygo UICLing ( talk) 16:24, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
A distinctive feature of SA English is the use of "to stay" for a long-term residency where most other English dialects would use "to live" - e.g. "We stayed in Cape Town for five years" as opposed to "We lived in Cape Town for five years." Maybe this should be mentioned. Muzilon ( talk) 08:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
I was reading this article and was confused by the inclusion of the geography section. It seems to just be copied from the "Geography of South Africa" article and has no relation to language so why is it included on this article? Haydaddy ( talk) 20:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
South African English article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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This article is written in South African English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sparks9714. Peer reviewers: Shreyamurali.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 09:51, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Kuratowski's Ghost has been removing 'nonsense' left right and centre from this article, rendering it rather dead. Rather than going at it with a machete, perhaps some of the value could be restored, but in a way that meets Ghost's high standards. As an ignorant reader, I can understand "pawk the kaw dahwn tahwn", not the IPA. Now the IPA may be definitive for the experts, but a casual reader can't understand it, and can understand "pawk the kaw dahwn tahwn". I personally know people who sound like this. All the disclaimers for the purist can be put in place, but cutting it out has taken value from the article.
Similarly, *work → weck — /wɛk/, which Ghost has excised. I personally know someone who pronounces the word work like 'weck'. So it's not nonsense. Fix the IPA if it's wrong. Add whatever clarifications about this - but stop removing everything! Greenman 08:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
Okay, so here's what I'm thinking - I don't think the "pidgins" that Afrikaans, Zulu, Xhosa-speakers use (which is, for a start, not a specific thing - people who's home language is Venda, for example, range in English proficiency from being indecipherable to not sounding any different to an Anglo-African when speaking) count as South African English at all. They're just incorrect. You don't tell someone who speaks French badly that he's using a different dialect of French; he's just not speaking it properly. Likewise, South African English is the English which is spoken by South Africans whose home language is English, or by those who speak it as well as those English-speaking South Africans. Such things as confusing "he" and "she", or "I can like to wear a jean pant" (to quote Jeremy Mansfield) are not English. What's everyones' take on this? Can I delete that paragraph? Joziboy 07:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, what's with the we-sound-like-upper-class-Brits rubbish? The South African accent is nothing like the upper class British accent. Joziboy 15:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Agree with Joziboy here, I'm afraid.
— The typical ESSAn accent is nothing like the "upper-class British accent", unless what you mean by that is some sort of false SA notion of what the UCB accent must sound like.
— Whilst it is true that SA English generally has a deeply exaggerated [AW] sound in the above examples (park = "bawk") and that most ESSAns say off as in "awful", rather than as in "offal", similarities such as these (with a certain type of toff accent) are coincidental (and not that similar to the ear in any case) (convergent evolution, you might say) and there are in fact vastly more deep differences than superficial similarities.
— The ESSAn accent had its clear origins among the English speakers in the British colonial settlements of the E. Cape in 1820 and of Natal 1840s. (Incidentally, it's surprising how many ESSAns can trace their antecedents to these two groups of settlers, in spite of all the later settlements, such as a not insubstantial number of British settlers over the period 1945 to 1948 and a steady flow through the 1950s-mid-70s.)
— The point is the two floods of 19th-century British settlers were made up mostly of simple rural farming or small-town working people (NOT boatloads of exiled aristoctrats and royals!) and what's more, mostly from non-SE-England, i.e., from Yorkshire and Lancashire, the West Country, and also Scots and Welsh -- all with very distinct accents (and dialects) that were far removed from the toffish UCB accents.
— There have of course been other substantial influences on the ESSAn accent since then, such as the Yiddish-German-speaking Jewish Lithuanians, who settled in towns in the early 20th century: their influence on the distinctive "Joburg" accent, as following generations acquired English as their native tongue, hasn't received enough attention.
— And then, least of all (and this is where I also agree with many commenters protesting about the poor quality of this article in broadly confusing native-SAEnglish/ESSAns with non-native-English speakers and their languages)… least of all there have been slighter and varied influences by contact with speakers of these other languages – Dutch, Afrikaans, Nguni languages, Portuguese, etc – with whom ESSAns have interacted over the past 180-odd years.
— But remember, this history of ESSAns (and all peoples there) has been characterised by adversarialism, rivalry, cycles of dominance-oppression and (micro-)geographical separation, factors that would favour cultural enclavism and discourage cultural (and linguistic) cross-fertilization. (For goodness sake, far from being convinced by lists of loans words between, for example, SAEnglish and Afrikaans, to draw specious conclusions about close liguistic miscegenation and co-evolution, it's astounding how few loan words and other linguistic influences there are between SAEnglish and the other languages it has cohabited with for nearly two centuries.) Brockle 15:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Baxelele, LSD, laba abantu baphum'eKoloni, baxelele! Abaqondi ukuba bathetha ngantoni-na! Zyxoas ( talk to me - I'll listen) 16:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Haha, ehhe! Siyazi ukuthi iKoloni alineNingizimu Afrika... mhlawumbe bakhuluma isiNgisi saseNgilandi laphaya :) Joziboy 22:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Nawe uyabona? Kudala ndikuxele ngalaba abantu! Zyxoas ( talk to me - I'll listen) 22:26, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
The similarities between New Zealand English and Natal English is surely due to the 1840's immigration to both places from practically the same source populations in Britain. Roger ( talk) 09:36, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I have doubts about the assertion that Eastern Cape English is the regional variation most influenced by Afrikaans. Thanks to the 1820 settlers, the Eastern Cape is the part of SA where English has been longest established - it's this, rather than any Afrikaans influence, that I thought was responsible for the characteristically broad Eastern Cape accent.
More generally, I think the influence of Afrikaans on South African English is overstated. Looking at the examples given in the article: "Are you coming with?" is recognisably derived from "kom jy saam?". But I fail to see the Afrikaans influence on a phrase like or "do you know who I am". "Just now" in English may correspond to "net nou" or "nou die dag" in Afrikaans - but these are colloquial Afrikaans, and you could just as well argue that it's a case of Afrikaans being influenced by SA English as one of SAE being influenced by Afrikaans.
The rather flexible use of "now / now-now / just now" by South Africans does however reflect usage in other parts of the continent. "Sasa" in Swahili, "soon" in East African English, or "já" in Angolan Portuguese can all mean anything from "now" to an indeterminite time in the future.
Yes, nameless, I strongly agree with your general assertions here, wrt ECape English and wrt the influence generally of Afrikaans on SA English. Please see my lengthy comments in the section above (the section with the somewhat irrelevant title "Pidgin versions").
Brockle 15:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I found this interesting article http://www.roepstem.net/sa-english.html (Unfortunately it is in Dutch, but is understandable for Afrikaans speakers) Roger ( talk) 20:05, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I think afrikaans influenced the word boom slang. This could maybe be added to the "Contributions to English Worldwide" section. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.209.5.112 ( talk) 19:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
cites of the country —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.60.40 ( talk) 01:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. I was genuinely curious about this dialect. Then I realized that this is one of the worst dialect articles on Wikipedia. The phonology section needs to be much larger. 208.104.45.20 ( talk) 05:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
It certainly does, this article makes little sense to an English Speaking South African like myself. Travsuth ( talk) 03:19, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
"Afrikaans words like "Jirre", "Jisses", "Jislaaik" are common even amongst Anglo-Africans." But what do they mean? 203.59.214.105 ( talk) 04:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I actually think they should be removed. And they are not common amongst Anglo-Africans with manners. Mosheroni ( talk) 12:29, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
"Some words peculiar to South African English include 'takkies', 'tackie' or 'tekkie' for sneakers (American) or trainers (British), 'combi' or 'kombi' for a small van, 'bakkie' for a pick-up truck, 'kiff' for pleasurable, 'lekker' for nice, 'donga' for ditch and 'jol' for party."
Okay, I know from studying German that 'Kombi' is a word used there for a small van, and 'lecker' is 'delicious,' which I would think is considered more-or-less equivalent to 'nice.' Something tells me that there is no way these two words are NOT Dutch/Afrikaans loanwords -- citation for this assertion . . . ?
63.165.88.230 ( talk) 00:45, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
~ 2601:441:4400:1740:DDB7:D288:9240:6159 ( talk) 02:42, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
It appears to be common in some varieties of South African English to use inversion in indirect/embedded questions (I don't know when is the plane going to land, We need to create awareness of what is autism). I've found online sources for this in Indian [1] and black [2] varieties of South African English, but I'd like a more comprehensive account of its distribution. (Here's a white South African using this construction: [3].) This is apparently a common feature of World Englishes and L2 speakers of English in general. Is the 'standard' English pattern (I don't know when the plane is going to land, We need to create awareness of what autism is) common in some varieties of South African English? Chris Johnson ( talk) 16:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be a cultivated variety of South African English. One of my teachers seems to speak it. I couldn't describe it to you phonetically right now, but it sounds a lot like RP to my ears. It doesn't sound like stereotypical South African English. Thegryseone ( talk) 22:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that everything is America's fault. Thegryseone ( talk) 01:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
The article devotes too much attention to Malan's book which is a humorous look at low income Afrikaans speaking people in a few northern suburbs of Cape Town attempting to speak English. Such "English" is hardly representative of Cape Town English let alone South African English, in fact despite being a Cape Town English speaker myself I can't even understand the title of the book. Imagine if someone stuffed an article on British English with info on a book on how English is pronounced by Panjabi's in Brick Lane. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 23:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Its a real shame that in such a mature article the column for SA English is completely blank!!! Unfortunately I don't know IPA well enough to do it myself. Roger ( talk) 00:41, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
\
Another L1 speaker of Tripe-lish bites the dust. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 17:55, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
He didn't say they're not worthy of inclusion. He, and I, said that unless otherwise stated, language articles can be assumed to describe the dialect spoken by L1 mother tongue speakers. L2 varieties may be mentioned, or even given their own articles, but it's just unnecessary to qualify the main article's title to explicitely state that it's refering to L1.
I'm assuming here that by "white" he meant first-language English speaking, which is fallacious on at least two counts (the qualifier is neither a necessary condition nor a sufficient condition), either for L1 speech or (the less strict claim) merely for speaking with the accent outlined her, as outlined above by other editors. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 06:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes. And then he got banned.
Not only is it not necessary to be "white" to speak L1 English as he seemed to believe (with his arguments about Ebonics) as many non-"white" are first language English speakers, it's also not sufficient as most "white" South Africans aren't even first language English speakers. His strawman arguments were also not impressive. Tebello TheWHAT!!?? 08:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
The positive result of the rejected move proposal is that the proposer (despite errors and flawed judgement) has left the article with the beginning of a desparately needed section on phonology. It needs cleaning up and expanding.
About the quote from a textbook, the following comment: It is only one quote from one book. It is not quoted from a stone tablet brought down from the sacred mountain by the prophet. Roger ( talk) 11:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
The edits that were recently reverted are correct observations, tune is not pronounced choon in South African English nor is dune pronouced as june which is what the article essentially says if you understand IPA, "choon" might be used as a comical exaggeration of an Afrikaans accent but first language speakers always say "tyoon" and "dyoon" (as opposed to American "toon" and "doon"). The description of South African voiceless stops as unaspirated is also technically wrong as pointed out in the edit comment, Xhosa p, t, k would be examples of unaspirated voiceless stops but neither first language English speakers in SA nor people with a Xhosa accent pronounce English p, t, k as unaspirated, first language speakers pronounce them typically with weak aspiration or sometimes moderate aspiration while people with a Xhosa accent pronounce them strongly aspirated like the Xhosa ph, th, kh sounds. Kuratowski's Ghost ( talk) 23:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Questionable:
This lexicon influenced British English through soldiers returning from the Boer War and through returning British settlers with a significant number of Afrikaner settlers who left the Union of South Africa in 1931.
Highly questionable:
South African lexicon enriched the British lexicon more by the arrival of white South African settlers of both British and Afrikaner descent who left their home country in 1994.
Really? This suggests that British people now say 'howzit', 'you coming with', 'braai', and 'just now' - the only people in the UK I know I do are South Africans and Zimbabweans! As for the use of the word 'settlers', please - people who came to the UK from South Africa were migrants! Quiensabe ( talk) 10:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I'll explain why I'm asking if you want, but now I'll get straight to the point:
In your opinion, is the following question easily answerable in one word, or does it depend?
In South African English, what's " Association football" called?
Chrisrus ( talk) 04:05, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
The article says that SA English uses 'highway' instead of 'motorway'. This is totally false! In SA Motorways and highways are different things! Motorways tend to be mid-sized, whilst highways are bigger and go further. Thus they do use the term 'motorway'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jemappelleungarcon ( talk • contribs) 03:13, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
The references such as "Lass (2002)" and "Lanham (1967:14)" are incomplete - no bibliographic details are given. These sources are the basis of most of the article so fixing it is really important. Roger ( talk) 11:25, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
The "Lanham (1967)" source still has no bibliographic details! Roger (Dodger67) ( talk) 18:10, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
some south africans don't say are e.g. in johannesburg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 105.228.211.218 ( talk) 06:08, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Most of this article consists of unsourced statements, and the article has been flagged as such since 2007. I'm guessing that it seems a pity to cut out the majority of the text. Does anyone have sources? Totorotroll ( talk) 15:46, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I also think that a lot needs further research and investigation, once reliable sources are found. Words supposedly "peculiar" to South African English are generally loaned from other languages, eg Afrikaans and Zulu/Xhosa, in the case of "lekker" and "donga" respectively. Totorotroll ( talk) 15:49, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm strongly against that table, as its sources aren't fully clear (I know what they are, but the readers, most likely, don't) and it's too easy to alter without anyone noticing (I can see that [ a found in Johannesburg by Bekker (2008) just got deleted, and that's unacceptable). Let's just have a massive vowel section without any tables, though much of what we have now is a copy-paste from Bowerman (2004) and needs to go. Peter238 ( talk) 06:44, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
(deleted; see the article)
I came to this article with the specific purpose to find out what differences in spelling, if any, there are between SAE and BE, and found nothing. I think other readers might be interested too. Do they simply use BE in writing? FunkMonk ( talk) 06:30, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, I was looking for an explanation of whether British or American spellings are used, or some combination thereof, as in Canada. The Sandton City article, for example, is written with US spelling. Can someone clarify? Ground Zero | t 13:40, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
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I noticed that this article has not been discussed in awhile. I plan to edit it for a class project, and I just wanted to throw a few ideas out there. First, I plan to make sure that any uncited information is either corroborated or removed. I also want to organize the leading section better so the whole article follows more smoothly from this intro. This will likely involve giving the different types of South African English their own section instead of keeping them in the first paragraph. I also plan to add sections on Grammar, History, and Geographical Distribution and update any old statistics. Additionally, I plan to include a discussion on the social function(s) of South African English and its varieties, if such information exists. I found some preliminary academic sources to start my work:
Branford, William. A Hand-Held Dictionary of South African English: Some Problems of English Lexicography in a Multilingual Context. , 1978, ProQuest, http://ezproxy.library.arizona.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.ezproxy2.library.arizona.edu/docview/58084164?accountid=8360.
BROOKES, H. (2004), A Repertoire of South African Quotable Gestures. Journal of Linguistic Anthropology, 14: 186–224. doi:10.1525/jlin.2004.14.2.186
“English in Africa.” English in Africa, vol. 5, no. 1, 1978, pp. 80–81. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238421.
Murphy, M. L. "Defining People: Race and Ethnicity in South African English Dictionaries." International Journal of Lexicography, vol. 11, no. 1, 1998, pp. 1-33, ProQuest, http://ezproxy.library.arizona.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.ezproxy2.library.arizona.edu/docview/58338129?accountid=8360.
Silva, Penny. “The 1820 Settlement: Some Aspects of Its Influence on the Vocabulary of South African English.” English in Africa, vol. 5, no. 1, 1978, pp. 61–70. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238417.
Taylor, Tim. “Anthropological Linguistics.” Anthropological Linguistics, vol. 36, no. 4, 1994, pp. 521–524. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/30028394.
Watts, H. L. “English in Africa.” English in Africa, vol. 7, no. 2, 1980, pp. 90–91. JSTOR, JSTOR, www.jstor.org/stable/40238480.
If anyone has any input, I'd love to hear your thoughts! Sparks9714 ( talk) 18:36, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 1 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Zohaib Alvi, Zabdu2, Lramir54, Tytygo ( article contribs). Peer reviewers: Dquin3, Marlem J., Bguti2, Umnawahal, Brian redmond jr, Lexxdavv, Jlia22, Iur444.
— Assignment last updated by UICLing ( talk) 10:56, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Students: Respond to your peer feedback by posting what changes you will make and what should be made to the article based on your peers' suggestions. Click "reply" below to respond. @ Zohaib Alvi, @ Zabdu2, @ Lramir54, @ Tytygo UICLing ( talk) 16:24, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
A distinctive feature of SA English is the use of "to stay" for a long-term residency where most other English dialects would use "to live" - e.g. "We stayed in Cape Town for five years" as opposed to "We lived in Cape Town for five years." Maybe this should be mentioned. Muzilon ( talk) 08:45, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
I was reading this article and was confused by the inclusion of the geography section. It seems to just be copied from the "Geography of South Africa" article and has no relation to language so why is it included on this article? Haydaddy ( talk) 20:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)