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This is why I added a section on the end on Aristotole's Four Causes. Even though the material cause changes, the formal cause remains the same. The Formal Cause is basically the design of the object in this system, while the Material Cause is the matter which happens to make it up. Aristotle gives greater presidence to Formal Cause when defining being. -- Marcusscotus1 05:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
There aren't any sources for this section. The link to Treachery of Images doesn't fully explain the argument. Seems more like a musing from an user than a scholar position. Should it be erased? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maracutaia ( talk • contribs) 06:52, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
Not only does the "gradual loss of identity" lack sufficient sources, comparing the ship of Theseus to the USS Constitution is an inadequate comparison. One is defined by its ownership of the titular Theseus, the other is self-defined as its own entity. Replacing the bed of Theseus would make it no longer the bed of Theseus, but replacing a bed on the USS Constitution makes it still a part of the USS Constitution due to the transitive properties of identity.
After reading this article it occurred to me that there seemed to be a number of similarities between this concept and at least some parts of "general semantics". Basically "Fred(1970)" is not the same as Fred(2010), despite the fact that they are still 'the same' person.
/info/en/?search=General_semantics
HTH
203.96.132.249 (
talk) 00:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Bruce
It feels like the "applications" section is close to being a list of miscellaneous information. The part about Ship of Theseus bands (though interesting) is the clearest example of this. It probably also can be considered original research, although it's hard to know for sure without a citation. Worth keeping an eye on. Wemedgefrodis ( talk) 20:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I wonder whether this is simply a false dichotomy: by posing the question as a predicate that can only be true or false, one excludes consideration of a continuum of identity. (One could argue that from moment to moment the ship is still mostly "the same" in both materials and design, but over the course of a century the percentage of materials decreases markedly, even if the design remains substantially the same. Then deciding whether two observations are "really the same thing" is simply a matter of choosing a threshold over some combination of those two proportions.)
Martin Kealey ( talk) 00:59, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
An interesting article!
I thought about the fact that living organisms consist of cells that die and are renewed over time as well ...
https://www.livescience.com/33179-does-human-body-replace-cells-seven-years.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.225.161 ( talk) 11:28, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
There are two references offered in this article to substantiate the claim that Heraclitus and Plato both discussed the puzzle of the Ship of Theseus. If you read the sources, however, you will not find any discussion of the Ship of Theseus. The reference to Heraclitus is a statement of a belief that "all things move and nothing remains still." - that has some adjacent issues of persistence of identity, but it is not a discussion on the Ship of Theseus (incidentally, this passage isn't a discussion on the philosophical ideas but a speculative etymology of the name Hestia). The reference to Plato is about whether something can be encircled by a thing it is encircling. These references should be deleted and the earliest reference should be the Plutarch unless there are other sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.155.120.196 ( talk) 00:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
I think it would be the same ship because it would still be called the ship of Theseus. I mean the let's say that the Linux kernel has had all its code changed and not one code is the original from 1994 91 or something is it still the same colonel copyright wise the code is different it's changed it's not the there's nothing from the original but it's still called the Linux kernel because the trademark the name it is given is still the same so technically I would say the ship is the same in name only since copyright wise or every board or every code has been changed so that nothing is original but the name is still the same Slinkyw ( talk) 15:33, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Noted this for anyone interested. Seeaver ( talk) 01:10, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
If there's a good primary source making the connection, a good example might be waves. When we watch a wave of water propagate across the sea, we see it as a single moving "object" (of a sort), though it might be made of totally different particles of water after a few seconds.
Tophtucker ( talk) 22:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
The sentence in the "Four-dimensionalism" section that begins "The aforementioned river" has lost it aforementioned reference with a recent edit that removed the "No identity over time" section that introduced the river dispute. 71.213.182.112 ( talk) 21:05, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I can't find a transcription of the quote from Hobbes, so I'm transcribing it here for reference from archive.org for potential future quoting in the article because it's often hard to tell from the academic sources which parts are Hobbes' claims and which are the analysis. the whole excerpt is certainly too long to include in the article and uses technical language, but I think it won't be too confusing to make some quotes from it.
But the same Body may at different times be Compared with itself. And from hence springs a great controversy among Philosophers about the Beginning of Individuation namely, in what sense it may be conceived that a Body is at one time the same, at another time not the same it was formerly. For example, whether a Man grown old be the same Man he was whilst he was young, or another Man, or whether a City be in different Ages the Same, or another City. Some place Individuity in the Unity of Matter, others in the Unity of Form, and one says it consists in the Unity of the Aggregate of all the Accidents together. For Matter, it is pleaded, that a lump of Wax, whether it be Spherical or Cubical, is the same Wax, because the same Matter. For Form, that when a Man is grown from an Infant to be an Old Man, though his Matter be changed, yet he is still the same Numerical Man; for that Identity which cannot be attributed to the Matter, ought probably to be ascribed to the Form. For the Aggregate of Accidents no Instance can be made ; but because when any new Accident is generated, a new Name is commonly imposed on the Thing, therefore he that assigned this cause of Individuity , thought the thing itself also was become another thing. According to the first Opinion, He that sins, and he that is punished should not be the same Man , by reason of the perpetual flux and change of Mans Body, nor should the City which makes Laws in one Age , and abrogates them in another, be the same City ; which were to confound all Civil Rights. According to the second Opinion, two Bodies existing both at once, would be one and the same Numerical Body for if (for example) that Ship of Theseus (concerning the Difference whereof, made by continual reparation, in taking out the old Planks, and putting in new, the Sophisters of Athens were wont to dispute) were, after all the Planks were changed, the same Numerical Ship it was at the beginning; and if some Man had kept the Old Planks as they were taken out, and by putting them afterwards together in the same order, had again made a Ship of them, this without doubt had also been the same Numerical Ship with that which was at the beginnings and so there would have been two Ships Numerically the same, which is absurd. But according to the third Opinion, Nothing would be the same it was, so that a Man standing, would not be the same he was sitting; nor the Water which is in the Vessel, the same with that which is poured out of it. Wherefore the beginning of Individuation is not always to be taken either from Matter alone, or from Form alone.
But we must consider by what name any thing is called , when we inquire concerning the Identity of it; for it is one thing to ask concerning Socrates whether he be the same Man, and another to ask whether he be the same Body; for his Body when he is Old, cannot be the same it was when he was an Infant, by reason of the difference of Magnitude; for One Body has always One and the same Magnitude; yet nevertheless he may be the same Man. And therefore whensoever the Name by which it is asked whether a thing be the same it was, is given it for the Matter only , then if the Matter be the same, the thing also is Individually the same ; as the Water which was in the Sea, is the same which is afterward in the Cloud, and any Body is the same, whether the parts of it be put together, or dispersed, or whether it be congealed or dissolved. Also if the Name be given for such Form as is the beginning of Motion, then as long as that Motion remains it will be the same Individual thing-, as that Man will be always the same, whole Actions and Thoughts proceed all from the same beginning of Motion namely, that which was in his generation; and that will be the same River, which flows from one and the same Fountain, whether the same Water, or other Water, or something else than Water flow from thence-and that the same City, whose Acts proceed continually from the same Institution , whether the Men be the same or no. Lastly, if the Name be given for some Accident, then the Identity of the thing will depend upon the Matter ; for by the taking away and supplying of Matter, the Accidents that were are destroyed, and other new ones are generated, which cannot be the same Numerically; so that a Ship, which signifies Matter so figured, will be the same, as long as the Matter remains the same ; but if no part of the Matter be the same , then it is Numerically, another Ship; and if part of the Matter remain, and part be changed, then the Ship will be partly the same, and partly not the same.
It's from 1656, so it's definitely in the public domain and I can quote the whole thing here without a copyright violation. - car chasm ( talk) 20:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I've merged back in the List of Ship of Theseus examples and removed the original research. That page was accumulating a variety of non-notable examples, and more concerning, even some scholarly sources that belong on this article! In the process of merging I also removed most of the non-notable examples. Hopefully removing all of the pop culture references will discourage people from being inspired to add their own pop culture references. - car chasm ( talk) 23:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Currently, the article discusses Shinto shrines being replaced with new wood every twenty years. A quick Google search suggests that this may be specific to the Ise Jingu Shrine in Japan and is not present at every Shinto shrine as the text suggests. Anyone with more knowledge want to comment and/or update? SoroSuub1 ( talk) 02:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Really this is the same question. If you replaced one plank on the ship, most people would still consider it the same ship, just repaired, as ships are. Same perhaps with two planks. If you replaced every plank, perhaps it's not the same ship, although if that happens gradually, it might be. That's the argument.
But what if you took a grain of sand away from a pile? Is it still a pile? If you took away all but one grain?
These are both ancient philosophical questions, but in many ways the same question.
84.68.162.176 ( talk) 13:13, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
its a philosophical question of definitions really. What makes it a paradox? Gjxj ( talk) 17:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
It has been pointed out on reddit that since this article was first posted, it has been edited in its entirety. According to the Reddit post:
"the "Ship of Theseus" article has been edited 1792 times since it was created in July of 2003. At present, 0% of the phrases in the original article remain."
Not only is this delightfully meta, it's a pretty good example of the philosophical concept in action. It might be worth mentioning in the article, if Reddit posts are allowed as citations. Sgrandpre ( talk) 06:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
https://www.sheldoncomics.com/comic/ship-of-theseus/
This post has been brought to you from the department of fun. -- Guy Macon Alternate Account ( talk) 08:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
There are four questions:
Prior discussion can be found at Talk:Ship of Theseus#Article of Theseus ConcurrentState ( talk) 18:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Informal closure -- Consensus was reached to use historical example(s) but not the suggested trivia example using the article itself. WP guidelines states: "If the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable." For this reason, I'm not inserting a closure template. ProfGray ( talk) 16:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ship of Theseus article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The contents of the List of Ship of Theseus examples page were merged into Ship of Theseus. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
This is why I added a section on the end on Aristotole's Four Causes. Even though the material cause changes, the formal cause remains the same. The Formal Cause is basically the design of the object in this system, while the Material Cause is the matter which happens to make it up. Aristotle gives greater presidence to Formal Cause when defining being. -- Marcusscotus1 05:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
There aren't any sources for this section. The link to Treachery of Images doesn't fully explain the argument. Seems more like a musing from an user than a scholar position. Should it be erased? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maracutaia ( talk • contribs) 06:52, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
Not only does the "gradual loss of identity" lack sufficient sources, comparing the ship of Theseus to the USS Constitution is an inadequate comparison. One is defined by its ownership of the titular Theseus, the other is self-defined as its own entity. Replacing the bed of Theseus would make it no longer the bed of Theseus, but replacing a bed on the USS Constitution makes it still a part of the USS Constitution due to the transitive properties of identity.
After reading this article it occurred to me that there seemed to be a number of similarities between this concept and at least some parts of "general semantics". Basically "Fred(1970)" is not the same as Fred(2010), despite the fact that they are still 'the same' person.
/info/en/?search=General_semantics
HTH
203.96.132.249 (
talk) 00:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC) Bruce
It feels like the "applications" section is close to being a list of miscellaneous information. The part about Ship of Theseus bands (though interesting) is the clearest example of this. It probably also can be considered original research, although it's hard to know for sure without a citation. Worth keeping an eye on. Wemedgefrodis ( talk) 20:03, 27 September 2021 (UTC)
I wonder whether this is simply a false dichotomy: by posing the question as a predicate that can only be true or false, one excludes consideration of a continuum of identity. (One could argue that from moment to moment the ship is still mostly "the same" in both materials and design, but over the course of a century the percentage of materials decreases markedly, even if the design remains substantially the same. Then deciding whether two observations are "really the same thing" is simply a matter of choosing a threshold over some combination of those two proportions.)
Martin Kealey ( talk) 00:59, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
An interesting article!
I thought about the fact that living organisms consist of cells that die and are renewed over time as well ...
https://www.livescience.com/33179-does-human-body-replace-cells-seven-years.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.225.161 ( talk) 11:28, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
There are two references offered in this article to substantiate the claim that Heraclitus and Plato both discussed the puzzle of the Ship of Theseus. If you read the sources, however, you will not find any discussion of the Ship of Theseus. The reference to Heraclitus is a statement of a belief that "all things move and nothing remains still." - that has some adjacent issues of persistence of identity, but it is not a discussion on the Ship of Theseus (incidentally, this passage isn't a discussion on the philosophical ideas but a speculative etymology of the name Hestia). The reference to Plato is about whether something can be encircled by a thing it is encircling. These references should be deleted and the earliest reference should be the Plutarch unless there are other sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.155.120.196 ( talk) 00:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)
I think it would be the same ship because it would still be called the ship of Theseus. I mean the let's say that the Linux kernel has had all its code changed and not one code is the original from 1994 91 or something is it still the same colonel copyright wise the code is different it's changed it's not the there's nothing from the original but it's still called the Linux kernel because the trademark the name it is given is still the same so technically I would say the ship is the same in name only since copyright wise or every board or every code has been changed so that nothing is original but the name is still the same Slinkyw ( talk) 15:33, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
Noted this for anyone interested. Seeaver ( talk) 01:10, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
If there's a good primary source making the connection, a good example might be waves. When we watch a wave of water propagate across the sea, we see it as a single moving "object" (of a sort), though it might be made of totally different particles of water after a few seconds.
Tophtucker ( talk) 22:26, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
The sentence in the "Four-dimensionalism" section that begins "The aforementioned river" has lost it aforementioned reference with a recent edit that removed the "No identity over time" section that introduced the river dispute. 71.213.182.112 ( talk) 21:05, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
I can't find a transcription of the quote from Hobbes, so I'm transcribing it here for reference from archive.org for potential future quoting in the article because it's often hard to tell from the academic sources which parts are Hobbes' claims and which are the analysis. the whole excerpt is certainly too long to include in the article and uses technical language, but I think it won't be too confusing to make some quotes from it.
But the same Body may at different times be Compared with itself. And from hence springs a great controversy among Philosophers about the Beginning of Individuation namely, in what sense it may be conceived that a Body is at one time the same, at another time not the same it was formerly. For example, whether a Man grown old be the same Man he was whilst he was young, or another Man, or whether a City be in different Ages the Same, or another City. Some place Individuity in the Unity of Matter, others in the Unity of Form, and one says it consists in the Unity of the Aggregate of all the Accidents together. For Matter, it is pleaded, that a lump of Wax, whether it be Spherical or Cubical, is the same Wax, because the same Matter. For Form, that when a Man is grown from an Infant to be an Old Man, though his Matter be changed, yet he is still the same Numerical Man; for that Identity which cannot be attributed to the Matter, ought probably to be ascribed to the Form. For the Aggregate of Accidents no Instance can be made ; but because when any new Accident is generated, a new Name is commonly imposed on the Thing, therefore he that assigned this cause of Individuity , thought the thing itself also was become another thing. According to the first Opinion, He that sins, and he that is punished should not be the same Man , by reason of the perpetual flux and change of Mans Body, nor should the City which makes Laws in one Age , and abrogates them in another, be the same City ; which were to confound all Civil Rights. According to the second Opinion, two Bodies existing both at once, would be one and the same Numerical Body for if (for example) that Ship of Theseus (concerning the Difference whereof, made by continual reparation, in taking out the old Planks, and putting in new, the Sophisters of Athens were wont to dispute) were, after all the Planks were changed, the same Numerical Ship it was at the beginning; and if some Man had kept the Old Planks as they were taken out, and by putting them afterwards together in the same order, had again made a Ship of them, this without doubt had also been the same Numerical Ship with that which was at the beginnings and so there would have been two Ships Numerically the same, which is absurd. But according to the third Opinion, Nothing would be the same it was, so that a Man standing, would not be the same he was sitting; nor the Water which is in the Vessel, the same with that which is poured out of it. Wherefore the beginning of Individuation is not always to be taken either from Matter alone, or from Form alone.
But we must consider by what name any thing is called , when we inquire concerning the Identity of it; for it is one thing to ask concerning Socrates whether he be the same Man, and another to ask whether he be the same Body; for his Body when he is Old, cannot be the same it was when he was an Infant, by reason of the difference of Magnitude; for One Body has always One and the same Magnitude; yet nevertheless he may be the same Man. And therefore whensoever the Name by which it is asked whether a thing be the same it was, is given it for the Matter only , then if the Matter be the same, the thing also is Individually the same ; as the Water which was in the Sea, is the same which is afterward in the Cloud, and any Body is the same, whether the parts of it be put together, or dispersed, or whether it be congealed or dissolved. Also if the Name be given for such Form as is the beginning of Motion, then as long as that Motion remains it will be the same Individual thing-, as that Man will be always the same, whole Actions and Thoughts proceed all from the same beginning of Motion namely, that which was in his generation; and that will be the same River, which flows from one and the same Fountain, whether the same Water, or other Water, or something else than Water flow from thence-and that the same City, whose Acts proceed continually from the same Institution , whether the Men be the same or no. Lastly, if the Name be given for some Accident, then the Identity of the thing will depend upon the Matter ; for by the taking away and supplying of Matter, the Accidents that were are destroyed, and other new ones are generated, which cannot be the same Numerically; so that a Ship, which signifies Matter so figured, will be the same, as long as the Matter remains the same ; but if no part of the Matter be the same , then it is Numerically, another Ship; and if part of the Matter remain, and part be changed, then the Ship will be partly the same, and partly not the same.
It's from 1656, so it's definitely in the public domain and I can quote the whole thing here without a copyright violation. - car chasm ( talk) 20:30, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
I've merged back in the List of Ship of Theseus examples and removed the original research. That page was accumulating a variety of non-notable examples, and more concerning, even some scholarly sources that belong on this article! In the process of merging I also removed most of the non-notable examples. Hopefully removing all of the pop culture references will discourage people from being inspired to add their own pop culture references. - car chasm ( talk) 23:55, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Currently, the article discusses Shinto shrines being replaced with new wood every twenty years. A quick Google search suggests that this may be specific to the Ise Jingu Shrine in Japan and is not present at every Shinto shrine as the text suggests. Anyone with more knowledge want to comment and/or update? SoroSuub1 ( talk) 02:01, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Really this is the same question. If you replaced one plank on the ship, most people would still consider it the same ship, just repaired, as ships are. Same perhaps with two planks. If you replaced every plank, perhaps it's not the same ship, although if that happens gradually, it might be. That's the argument.
But what if you took a grain of sand away from a pile? Is it still a pile? If you took away all but one grain?
These are both ancient philosophical questions, but in many ways the same question.
84.68.162.176 ( talk) 13:13, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
its a philosophical question of definitions really. What makes it a paradox? Gjxj ( talk) 17:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
It has been pointed out on reddit that since this article was first posted, it has been edited in its entirety. According to the Reddit post:
"the "Ship of Theseus" article has been edited 1792 times since it was created in July of 2003. At present, 0% of the phrases in the original article remain."
Not only is this delightfully meta, it's a pretty good example of the philosophical concept in action. It might be worth mentioning in the article, if Reddit posts are allowed as citations. Sgrandpre ( talk) 06:21, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
https://www.sheldoncomics.com/comic/ship-of-theseus/
This post has been brought to you from the department of fun. -- Guy Macon Alternate Account ( talk) 08:24, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
There are four questions:
Prior discussion can be found at Talk:Ship of Theseus#Article of Theseus ConcurrentState ( talk) 18:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
Informal closure -- Consensus was reached to use historical example(s) but not the suggested trivia example using the article itself. WP guidelines states: "If the matter under discussion is not contentious and the consensus is obvious to the participants, then formal closure is neither necessary nor advisable." For this reason, I'm not inserting a closure template. ProfGray ( talk) 16:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 00:00, 31 December 2999 (UTC) -->