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No way is this a Good Article. It survived attempts to delete it but it has not made nearly enough progress in the direction I expected. Still written too much from in-universe view, and not enough critical commentary included. If I had unlimited time I would downgrade it right now to Start class but the inevitable edit war that would ensue is something I have no taste for.--
Goodmorningworld (
talk) 14:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
quick observation on references/text direction. There are a lot of primary references to the Seth Material itself. An encyclopedia article should use less primary sources and more secondary sources commenting on the material. This will of necessity, limit the exposition of what the material says, which is close to the original research boundary, and is best avoided. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 19:49, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Let me add to this discussion by saying that NO article on Wikipedia is ever going to be particularly good. All the articles are edited to death by anyone and everyone. Some people have good writing ability and some people don't. When I wrote the initial article, the language was much better than it is now. Other people came along and re-wrote all my language, and now the language is clumsy and inconsistent throughout the entire article.
NoVomit, I appreciate that you are willing to defend the article though you don't personally believe in it. Too many editors see it as biased simply because they disdain the subject matter. Let me add that I agree with you that any article on a system of beliefs must describe the beliefs or tenets; otherwise, the reader goes away uninformed.-- Caleb Murdock ( talk) 09:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
A couple years ago, I introduced a convention into the article which I now feel should be changed. In trying to identify the voice of Seth, Roberts' trance personality, I decided to use the phrase "the Seth personality said ...". That seemed acceptable to me since it was made clear in the beginning of the article who was who: Roberts was the living individual, and Seth was the trance personality. (Who was whom?) However, I've concluded that there is one inescapable fact: All the words came out of Roberts' mouth; Seth had no mouth with which to speak. Thus, I've decided to change everything to "Roberts, speaking as Seth, said .." and sometimes (since that is a cumbersome phrase) just "Roberts". I personally believe that Seth was an independent individual, but that is only my view. Using the phrase "Roberts, speaking as Seth, said ..." is more neutral. It adheres to the facts, but it also makes clear that Roberts was in trance. Let me hasten to add, however, that the phrase "Roberts, while in trance, said ..." would be wrong since Roberts wasn't always in trance as Seth.
I just realized that the entire History section uses the term "the Seth personality". In that portion of the article, I think it is appropriate to use that term because that is where Seth is initially described to the reader, and also because it is useful to distinguish Roberts' personality from Seth's. However, I'll have to think about it.-- Caleb Murdock ( talk) 04:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
First, I have no ownership issues. I am the only editor interested enough to edit the article on a consistent basis. The real problems we have here are on the part of editors like yourselves who are not familiar with (and don't like) the subject matter, and thus have an agenda, and who try to block my edits simply for the sake of it. In this case, you have no excuse since the language I'm introducing is more neutral than the language that was there.
Both of you have just said things that support my position. Guyonthesubway said, "we cant say that 'he' has written anything". THAT'S WHAT MY CHANGES REFLECT. By moving from "the Seth personality said" to "Jane Roberts, speaking as Seth, said" I AM MAKING IT CLEAR THAT THE WORDS CAME OUT OF ROBERTS' MOUTH.
Verbal said: "Seth had no voice, Roberts had a voice which Seth used". That's right. Thus, changing from "the Seth personality said" to "Roberts, speaking as Seth, said" IS MORE REALISTIC AND THEREFORE MORE NEUTRAL. Both of you should LIKE the changes that I am making.
Since you should agree with what I am doing, it is becoming clear that you are blocking my changes simply because I am the one who is making them. This appears to be a personal vendetta.
You don't seem to realize that the phrase "the Seth personality" was terminology that I (that's me) introduced into the article three years ago when it was part of the Jane Roberts article. At the time, some editors felt that it wasn't entirely neutral. I have finally come to see that they were right and I'm trying to fix that.
Now, there are OTHER edits that I just made besides fixing that problem, and when you roll back my edits, you are rolling back those other edits also. Since you aren't familiar with the subject matter, and since your only contribution is to roll back another editor's edits (an editor who is more knowledgeable of the subject matter than you), you engaging in disruptive editing. You have no right to keep the article frozen in time. Now, if you want me to keep "the Seth personality said", please explain why, but don't roll back all my edits. You don't seem to realize that the terminology "the Seth personality said" is more reflective of my own personal belief that Seth was an independent individual. I'm perfectly happy to keep that terminology if you insist!-- Caleb Murdock ( talk) 19:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Content that is unsourced and been taggede since last year should be referenced or removed. Verbal chat 21:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
The following atrocious example of unwikipedian behavior (an attack on Verbal on his talk page) is pretty near a blockable offense and should be taken into account when judging the arguments and attitudes of Caleb Murdock:
The statement above ("But if you cut out wholesale portions of the article, things will escalate.") is also pretty bad. Ownership issues? Indeed! An RfC/U might be appropriate. -- Brangifer ( talk) 06:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
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No way is this a Good Article. It survived attempts to delete it but it has not made nearly enough progress in the direction I expected. Still written too much from in-universe view, and not enough critical commentary included. If I had unlimited time I would downgrade it right now to Start class but the inevitable edit war that would ensue is something I have no taste for.--
Goodmorningworld (
talk) 14:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
quick observation on references/text direction. There are a lot of primary references to the Seth Material itself. An encyclopedia article should use less primary sources and more secondary sources commenting on the material. This will of necessity, limit the exposition of what the material says, which is close to the original research boundary, and is best avoided. -- Rocksanddirt ( talk) 19:49, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Let me add to this discussion by saying that NO article on Wikipedia is ever going to be particularly good. All the articles are edited to death by anyone and everyone. Some people have good writing ability and some people don't. When I wrote the initial article, the language was much better than it is now. Other people came along and re-wrote all my language, and now the language is clumsy and inconsistent throughout the entire article.
NoVomit, I appreciate that you are willing to defend the article though you don't personally believe in it. Too many editors see it as biased simply because they disdain the subject matter. Let me add that I agree with you that any article on a system of beliefs must describe the beliefs or tenets; otherwise, the reader goes away uninformed.-- Caleb Murdock ( talk) 09:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
A couple years ago, I introduced a convention into the article which I now feel should be changed. In trying to identify the voice of Seth, Roberts' trance personality, I decided to use the phrase "the Seth personality said ...". That seemed acceptable to me since it was made clear in the beginning of the article who was who: Roberts was the living individual, and Seth was the trance personality. (Who was whom?) However, I've concluded that there is one inescapable fact: All the words came out of Roberts' mouth; Seth had no mouth with which to speak. Thus, I've decided to change everything to "Roberts, speaking as Seth, said .." and sometimes (since that is a cumbersome phrase) just "Roberts". I personally believe that Seth was an independent individual, but that is only my view. Using the phrase "Roberts, speaking as Seth, said ..." is more neutral. It adheres to the facts, but it also makes clear that Roberts was in trance. Let me hasten to add, however, that the phrase "Roberts, while in trance, said ..." would be wrong since Roberts wasn't always in trance as Seth.
I just realized that the entire History section uses the term "the Seth personality". In that portion of the article, I think it is appropriate to use that term because that is where Seth is initially described to the reader, and also because it is useful to distinguish Roberts' personality from Seth's. However, I'll have to think about it.-- Caleb Murdock ( talk) 04:23, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
First, I have no ownership issues. I am the only editor interested enough to edit the article on a consistent basis. The real problems we have here are on the part of editors like yourselves who are not familiar with (and don't like) the subject matter, and thus have an agenda, and who try to block my edits simply for the sake of it. In this case, you have no excuse since the language I'm introducing is more neutral than the language that was there.
Both of you have just said things that support my position. Guyonthesubway said, "we cant say that 'he' has written anything". THAT'S WHAT MY CHANGES REFLECT. By moving from "the Seth personality said" to "Jane Roberts, speaking as Seth, said" I AM MAKING IT CLEAR THAT THE WORDS CAME OUT OF ROBERTS' MOUTH.
Verbal said: "Seth had no voice, Roberts had a voice which Seth used". That's right. Thus, changing from "the Seth personality said" to "Roberts, speaking as Seth, said" IS MORE REALISTIC AND THEREFORE MORE NEUTRAL. Both of you should LIKE the changes that I am making.
Since you should agree with what I am doing, it is becoming clear that you are blocking my changes simply because I am the one who is making them. This appears to be a personal vendetta.
You don't seem to realize that the phrase "the Seth personality" was terminology that I (that's me) introduced into the article three years ago when it was part of the Jane Roberts article. At the time, some editors felt that it wasn't entirely neutral. I have finally come to see that they were right and I'm trying to fix that.
Now, there are OTHER edits that I just made besides fixing that problem, and when you roll back my edits, you are rolling back those other edits also. Since you aren't familiar with the subject matter, and since your only contribution is to roll back another editor's edits (an editor who is more knowledgeable of the subject matter than you), you engaging in disruptive editing. You have no right to keep the article frozen in time. Now, if you want me to keep "the Seth personality said", please explain why, but don't roll back all my edits. You don't seem to realize that the terminology "the Seth personality said" is more reflective of my own personal belief that Seth was an independent individual. I'm perfectly happy to keep that terminology if you insist!-- Caleb Murdock ( talk) 19:57, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
Content that is unsourced and been taggede since last year should be referenced or removed. Verbal chat 21:26, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
The following atrocious example of unwikipedian behavior (an attack on Verbal on his talk page) is pretty near a blockable offense and should be taken into account when judging the arguments and attitudes of Caleb Murdock:
The statement above ("But if you cut out wholesale portions of the article, things will escalate.") is also pretty bad. Ownership issues? Indeed! An RfC/U might be appropriate. -- Brangifer ( talk) 06:28, 26 February 2010 (UTC)