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Selig Percy Amoils article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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I have again removed the information copied from http://www.innovativexcimer.com/about.htm. The creator of the article wrote on my talk page:
The subject's own website and personal e-mails do not meet the criteria in Wikipedia:Verifiability. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability, "Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." - AED 14:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
"How can we be angry with the plaintiff’s lawyers when in many cases our so-called colleagues are undermining our profession? I believe there are some “experts” who will testify to anything as long as they are paid their $5,000- to $10,000-a-day fee." This sort of rabid POV should have no place in Wikipedia. From what I understand, the author of these sentiments feels that medical men should show loyalty to and support of each other, and that ethical issues should not cause a break in the ranks. This sort of attitude simply perpetuates the public perception that when things go wrong in the medical profession, colleagues cannot be expected to tell the truth. Paul venter 21:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an extremely pedantic approach to the writing of articles. Somewhere in WP it also says that if facts are "not contentious or liable to be challenged by other editors" then citations are not necessary. These facts were imparted by the subject himself and are of an entirely neutral nature - his parents' names, his wife's maiden name and home town and the whereabouts of his son. Are you implying that he is misrepresenting these facts or that they are crucial to the article? Really, you do choose to embark on edit wars over the most trivial issues. Where would you suggest that I find published material covering these facts? Paul venter 10:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
RFC Response There are two issues in the RFC request, the placement of the date of birth and the use of email with the article's subject as a source. I'll discuss separately.
First, the policy on biographies of living people tells us in the section on birthdays that unless the birthdate is already widely published, we should err towards including only the year of birth, not the date. Secondly, the guideline in the Manual of style tells us to put it after the name. This is so we can have a consistent look and feel across multiple articles. If there was a compelling reason to not put it there, it might not be, but I can't imagine one.
Secondly, the ultimate reason for sourcing is to adhere to the policy on making it possible for another editor to verify the statements. A privately received communication, such as an email, is not verifiable by another editor unless that private communication is published. So the sourcing to the private email is somewhere between highly suspect and useless. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia instead of a genealogy site, information about the family of an article subject is not necessary content. Indeed, unless it is relevant to the public noteworthiness of the subject, it is irrelevant content. This doesn't mean that it would have to go, especially if reliable sources had chosen to publish it, but if it is not necessary to being a good encyclopedia article and not verifiable, there is no real reason to keep it. In the case of living people, this is even more significant as we generally wish to err toward the side of respecting their privacy. GRBerry 23:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
In some cases the subject may become involved in editing an article. They may edit it themselves or have a representative of theirs edit it. They may contact Wikipedians either through the article's talk page or via email. Or, they may provide information through press releases, a personal website or blog, or an autobiography. When information supplied by the subject conflicts with unsourced statements in the article, the unsourced statements should be removed.
Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if:
unquote Paul venter 12:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies), information regarding date or year of birth goes immediately after name. - AED 22:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone asked for a third opinion at WP:3O, but it seems that someone has also asked for input via an article RFC and at the villiage pump. I don't know what to do beyond repeating the opinions you got there, namely that the date of birth goes in parentheses after the name; and unless the e-mail from the person is published someplace it doesn't count as a reliable source. ~ ONUnicorn ( Talk / Contribs) 20:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
RE: "Scientific Progress vol 14 no. 2, 1981". This citation appears to be incomplete as I can find no such journal by this name. Removed per WP:V. - AED 21:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I have no wish to take part in the general discussion on this article. However, I wish to stress that it is wrong to remove properly sourced material from an article. The suggestions that it is insensitive to record someone's Jewish ethnicity in an article, or that the subject of a biography should be consulted about its content, do not conform to Wikipedia policy. See WP:BLP, WP:AUTO and WP:V.-- Runcorn 22:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The following thread pasted from Robth's talk page:
I need advice with regard to an editor persisting in adding the category "South African Jew" to an article Selig Percy Amoils which I started. The subject is a living person and I feel that his "Jewishness" is a private matter and that without his express consent, it should not appear in this article. I am going by what I feel is intended in WP-Biographies of living persons, which cautions editors not to include insensitive material in articles. What do you suggest I do? Thanks Paul venter 13:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
My opinion has also been sought. Jewishness is an ethnicity as well as a religion, and ethnicity is not covered by WP:BLP. Interestingly, one of the disputes is that Mr Venter quoted the subject's exact date of birth while other editors removed it. WP:BLP does have something to say about that: "Wikipedia includes exact birthdates for some famous people, but including this information for most living people should be handled with caution. While many well-known living persons' exact birthdays are widely known and available to the public, the same is not always true for marginally notable people or non-public figures. With identity theft on the rise, it has become increasingly common for people to consider their exact date of birth to be private information. When in doubt about the notability of the person in question, or if the subject of a biography complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth rather than the exact date."-- Runcorn 22:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that caution with regard to a living person's birthday would be advisable normally. In this case the subject of the article provided the exact birthdate, knowing that it would be included in the biography, so that the usual caution would be unnecessary. With regard to the subject's Jewishness, whether ethnic or religious, my feeling is that in terms of WP:BLP editors are urged not to include potentially harmful material - calling for no less tact and sensitivity displayed in handling of the birthdate. Paul venter 06:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categorization of people and Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality. At any rate, the BLP policy says this:
Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met:
I think it's pretty clear that he can't be listed as a Jew.
Ken Arromdee 16:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Judaism is an ethnic category, so is not coverted by WP:BLP.-- Runcorn 18:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That is a perverse argument. Why is the fact that his invention is on display in London important? Do you wish to delete everything that you do not consider important? There is absolutely no policy to delete this information. Thousands of living people have their ethnicity noted, and it violates WP:NPOV to say that uniquely Dr. Amoils should not have it noted.-- Runcorn 19:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The reference provided by Runcorn does not specify whether the American Jewish Year Book deals with ethnic Jews or religious Jews. How did Runcorn deduce that it concerned itself with ethnic Jews? Very puzzling...... Paul venter 19:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Argh. I hate being wrong. Still, it appears that Ken Arromdee's interpretation is correct. In a BLP the deciding factor for inclusion is relevance, not accuracy. There is no assertion that being Jewish is relevant to his professional status, and that's what he is notable for. Unless being a "South African Jew" is somehow notable in its own right, this is actually a case for non-inclusion. My only defense is to claim ignorance of some of the finer points of policy... WP is a learning process. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 05:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
“ | In borderline cases, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. | ” |
This appears to be a question of interpreting policy, with valid points made by both sides. I might propose an RfC at this point, but we have received input from a variety of editors, and I suspect that consensus is unlikely due to the polarizing nature of the issue. Without some kind of resolution, this will probably turn into a slow-grinding revert war, which I have no interest in participating in. Does anyone have a suggestion for how to proceed, without resorting to flamethrowers? Right now I lean towards not including the cat, yet the fact that it is a topic of such interest to so many editors seems to imply that it might well have some kind of inherent notability. Ohhh, my head hurts! -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 23:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
When in doubt about the notability of the person in question, or if the subject of a biography complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth rather than the exact date. Paul venter 05:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This is threatening to go totally LAME. Since my sig is on this talkpage, I really don't want to end up as a humorous footnote in an archive; let me make a suggestion:
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Selig Percy Amoils article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have again removed the information copied from http://www.innovativexcimer.com/about.htm. The creator of the article wrote on my talk page:
The subject's own website and personal e-mails do not meet the criteria in Wikipedia:Verifiability. Per Wikipedia:Verifiability, "Articles should rely on credible, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." - AED 14:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
"How can we be angry with the plaintiff’s lawyers when in many cases our so-called colleagues are undermining our profession? I believe there are some “experts” who will testify to anything as long as they are paid their $5,000- to $10,000-a-day fee." This sort of rabid POV should have no place in Wikipedia. From what I understand, the author of these sentiments feels that medical men should show loyalty to and support of each other, and that ethical issues should not cause a break in the ranks. This sort of attitude simply perpetuates the public perception that when things go wrong in the medical profession, colleagues cannot be expected to tell the truth. Paul venter 21:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
This is an extremely pedantic approach to the writing of articles. Somewhere in WP it also says that if facts are "not contentious or liable to be challenged by other editors" then citations are not necessary. These facts were imparted by the subject himself and are of an entirely neutral nature - his parents' names, his wife's maiden name and home town and the whereabouts of his son. Are you implying that he is misrepresenting these facts or that they are crucial to the article? Really, you do choose to embark on edit wars over the most trivial issues. Where would you suggest that I find published material covering these facts? Paul venter 10:33, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
RFC Response There are two issues in the RFC request, the placement of the date of birth and the use of email with the article's subject as a source. I'll discuss separately.
First, the policy on biographies of living people tells us in the section on birthdays that unless the birthdate is already widely published, we should err towards including only the year of birth, not the date. Secondly, the guideline in the Manual of style tells us to put it after the name. This is so we can have a consistent look and feel across multiple articles. If there was a compelling reason to not put it there, it might not be, but I can't imagine one.
Secondly, the ultimate reason for sourcing is to adhere to the policy on making it possible for another editor to verify the statements. A privately received communication, such as an email, is not verifiable by another editor unless that private communication is published. So the sourcing to the private email is somewhere between highly suspect and useless. As Wikipedia is an encyclopedia instead of a genealogy site, information about the family of an article subject is not necessary content. Indeed, unless it is relevant to the public noteworthiness of the subject, it is irrelevant content. This doesn't mean that it would have to go, especially if reliable sources had chosen to publish it, but if it is not necessary to being a good encyclopedia article and not verifiable, there is no real reason to keep it. In the case of living people, this is even more significant as we generally wish to err toward the side of respecting their privacy. GRBerry 23:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
In some cases the subject may become involved in editing an article. They may edit it themselves or have a representative of theirs edit it. They may contact Wikipedians either through the article's talk page or via email. Or, they may provide information through press releases, a personal website or blog, or an autobiography. When information supplied by the subject conflicts with unsourced statements in the article, the unsourced statements should be removed.
Information supplied by the subject may be added to the article if:
unquote Paul venter 12:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies), information regarding date or year of birth goes immediately after name. - AED 22:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone asked for a third opinion at WP:3O, but it seems that someone has also asked for input via an article RFC and at the villiage pump. I don't know what to do beyond repeating the opinions you got there, namely that the date of birth goes in parentheses after the name; and unless the e-mail from the person is published someplace it doesn't count as a reliable source. ~ ONUnicorn ( Talk / Contribs) 20:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
RE: "Scientific Progress vol 14 no. 2, 1981". This citation appears to be incomplete as I can find no such journal by this name. Removed per WP:V. - AED 21:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I have no wish to take part in the general discussion on this article. However, I wish to stress that it is wrong to remove properly sourced material from an article. The suggestions that it is insensitive to record someone's Jewish ethnicity in an article, or that the subject of a biography should be consulted about its content, do not conform to Wikipedia policy. See WP:BLP, WP:AUTO and WP:V.-- Runcorn 22:40, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The following thread pasted from Robth's talk page:
I need advice with regard to an editor persisting in adding the category "South African Jew" to an article Selig Percy Amoils which I started. The subject is a living person and I feel that his "Jewishness" is a private matter and that without his express consent, it should not appear in this article. I am going by what I feel is intended in WP-Biographies of living persons, which cautions editors not to include insensitive material in articles. What do you suggest I do? Thanks Paul venter 13:29, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
My opinion has also been sought. Jewishness is an ethnicity as well as a religion, and ethnicity is not covered by WP:BLP. Interestingly, one of the disputes is that Mr Venter quoted the subject's exact date of birth while other editors removed it. WP:BLP does have something to say about that: "Wikipedia includes exact birthdates for some famous people, but including this information for most living people should be handled with caution. While many well-known living persons' exact birthdays are widely known and available to the public, the same is not always true for marginally notable people or non-public figures. With identity theft on the rise, it has become increasingly common for people to consider their exact date of birth to be private information. When in doubt about the notability of the person in question, or if the subject of a biography complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth rather than the exact date."-- Runcorn 22:22, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that caution with regard to a living person's birthday would be advisable normally. In this case the subject of the article provided the exact birthdate, knowing that it would be included in the biography, so that the usual caution would be unnecessary. With regard to the subject's Jewishness, whether ethnic or religious, my feeling is that in terms of WP:BLP editors are urged not to include potentially harmful material - calling for no less tact and sensitivity displayed in handling of the birthdate. Paul venter 06:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categorization of people and Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality. At any rate, the BLP policy says this:
Category tags regarding religious beliefs and sexual preference should not be used unless two criteria are met:
I think it's pretty clear that he can't be listed as a Jew.
Ken Arromdee 16:22, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Judaism is an ethnic category, so is not coverted by WP:BLP.-- Runcorn 18:36, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
That is a perverse argument. Why is the fact that his invention is on display in London important? Do you wish to delete everything that you do not consider important? There is absolutely no policy to delete this information. Thousands of living people have their ethnicity noted, and it violates WP:NPOV to say that uniquely Dr. Amoils should not have it noted.-- Runcorn 19:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The reference provided by Runcorn does not specify whether the American Jewish Year Book deals with ethnic Jews or religious Jews. How did Runcorn deduce that it concerned itself with ethnic Jews? Very puzzling...... Paul venter 19:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Argh. I hate being wrong. Still, it appears that Ken Arromdee's interpretation is correct. In a BLP the deciding factor for inclusion is relevance, not accuracy. There is no assertion that being Jewish is relevant to his professional status, and that's what he is notable for. Unless being a "South African Jew" is somehow notable in its own right, this is actually a case for non-inclusion. My only defense is to claim ignorance of some of the finer points of policy... WP is a learning process. -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 05:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
“ | In borderline cases, the rule of thumb should be "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. | ” |
This appears to be a question of interpreting policy, with valid points made by both sides. I might propose an RfC at this point, but we have received input from a variety of editors, and I suspect that consensus is unlikely due to the polarizing nature of the issue. Without some kind of resolution, this will probably turn into a slow-grinding revert war, which I have no interest in participating in. Does anyone have a suggestion for how to proceed, without resorting to flamethrowers? Right now I lean towards not including the cat, yet the fact that it is a topic of such interest to so many editors seems to imply that it might well have some kind of inherent notability. Ohhh, my head hurts! -- Doc Tropics Message in a bottle 23:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
When in doubt about the notability of the person in question, or if the subject of a biography complains about the publication of his or her date of birth, err on the side of caution and simply list the year of birth rather than the exact date. Paul venter 05:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
This is threatening to go totally LAME. Since my sig is on this talkpage, I really don't want to end up as a humorous footnote in an archive; let me make a suggestion: