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2012 U.S. state secession petitions was
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According to the article State of Jefferson, " The independence movement (rather than statehood) is instead known as Cascadia". The State of Jefferson is listed in this article under "51st state proposals and movements", but it is also listed under "Regional Secession", where it states "The State of Jefferson is a movement in and around the area of Yreka, CA to secede from the union and become an independent state". As there is no evidence to support this I propose this be removed from the article. 72.67.179.128 ( talk) 23:46, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
While groups like the Republic of Texas, League of the South, Confederate Society of America and others have been working toward secession (either individual states or regionally) for many years there is a new wave of interest nationally. Should we include a section on the 2012 Secession Petitions that have been initiated by individuals in 20 states so far? Here's an article about it. Coinmanj ( talk) 00:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Regionalisms in the United States (i.e. Appalachia in the South and " Deseret" by Mormons in Utah) are strong subcultures much alike Cascadia and New England. Some subcultures feel they are "nations" or provincial entities inside a nation (the USA). Both regions and states would have few individuals or groups for secession or autonomy of some kind, that's the way it is. In a federal democracy, each voluntary state decides whether or not to remain members of an unitary confederation, not forcibly banded into one. 71.102.1.95 ( talk) 11:53, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the original research from the tagged section since little progress to address it have been made since it was tagged last month. Included in the material I deleted were large quotes from the Federalist Papers. These documents are primary sources -- the problem is that the efforts to interpret what the quoted sections really meant were original research unsupported by reliable secondary sources. While some of the interpretation may be uncontroversial and accurate (for example the discussion of Hamilton), the section on Madison drew conclusions not apparent from the material being cited. The end result of the quotes from Madison was that the wikipedia editor concluded:
Hence, by 1800, Madison held that secession was solely at the discretion of a state's People, who were in fact the state's ruling sovereigns; and that there was "no higher tribunal"—including the Supreme Court—than a state's People for determining issues of nullifying federal laws, or for seceding from the federal Union entirely.
This interpretation obviously cannot stand unless it can be attributed to a reliable secondary source. The basic idea of Madison describing the Constitution as part Federal and part National is not controversial and could be supported by relliable sources, but these source reach a much different conclusion than the wiki editor did. Tom (North Shoreman) ( talk) 19:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
The article states 10 states seceded on the same day, June 8, 1861, nearly 2 months after the American Civil War began on April 12, 1861.
The [ article] on the Confederate States of America gives 10 different dates on which these 10 states seceded, none of which were June 8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.174.0.229 ( talk) 04:21, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: I propose that the section "Secession from a State" be removed, as it deals not with secession but with separation. Secession has a specific legal meaning: not every division of a political territory is a secession. The counties that made up, e.g., Maine, Kentucky, and West Virginia, were creatures of their mother States, respectively, and had never existed as sovereignties prior to their separation from the mother States. They had never acceded to their mother States and therefore could not secede from them. They merely separated from them, with their consent (disputed in the case of Virginia & West Virginia, but settled de facto by the U. S. army, and recognized de jure by the U. S. Supreme Court). I have not boldly deleted the section because I would not oppose having it moved to a more appropriate article: maybe a new article called "Division of States in the United States". My only concern here is the correct use of the term "secession", which does not apply to the cases listed in this section. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 17:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks to Drdpw for taking the appropriate action. I'm against the proposed merger, for reasons I give on that article's talk page. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 19:46, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
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We can't state that someone inferred something, that's clearly original research. But if it helps, here's some stuff he did say:
"Professor Akhil Reed A mar has written extensively on sovereignty and secession. See Akhil Reed Amar, “'[Tie Consent of the Governed: Constitutional Amendment Outside Article V,” 94 Coluni. L Rev. (1994) 457, 507 (rejecting state’s unilateral right to secede, and finding Supremacy Clause ’’logically inconsistent with the sovereignty of the people of each slate”); Akhil Reed Amar, ‘‘Some New World Lessons for the Old World,” 58 U. Chi. L Rev. (1991) 483. 502 (“Only a national majority, not a majority of a single state or region, can lawfully dissolve the American Union”); and Akhil Reed Amar, “Of Sovereignty and Federalism,” 96 Yale L.J. (1987) 1425. 1462 (arguing that ratification of the Constitution "prospectively abolished (the pre-existing sovereign right of any non-ratifying stale to secede from its sister states] for each state People who joined the Union, thereby melting themselves into the larger common sovereignly of the People of America”)." [1]
I also think that using Madison as a primary sources is against policy. We need a secondary source for that. Doug Weller talk 12:36, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
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The editor is trying to argue that Virginia somehow made its ratification of the Constitution conditional upon a right to secede. His/her source is a book review of "The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution" written on the MISES INSTITUTE website ( [2]. This fails as a reliable sourceon two counts -- the Mises Institute is noted for pressing net-confederate views and the book itself fails to meet any scholarly standards. User Audeamus42 is also edit warring at Origins of the American Civil War using similar "arguments". He/she needs to make arguments supporting his/her case and refrain from further changes to the article until there is a consensus to do so. Tom (North Shoreman) ( talk) 00:06, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
I think that the listing of the dates that each state seceded should be put into table form instead of the list form it's in now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenJenkins ( talk • contribs) 04:01, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I have removed an entry to this article discussing the so-called " Capital Hill Autonomous Zone" in Seattle. The sources generally do not discuss this phenomenon as "secession from the United States" and to include it here (1) would not be supported by the sources and (2) would be a form of forbidden original research/synthesis. Moreover, even to the extent it is discussed in sources as "succession" (which I have not seen), it would be undue weight.
I'll note that some of the sources cited in the most recent edit are also not RS (Heavy.com is a low-quality aggregator; City Journal is a magazine published by a rather partisan think tank).
Per WP:ONUS, this challenged material must not be re-added absent a consensus. I am bringing the matter here for discussion. Neutrality talk 02:49, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
New poll from BrightLineWatch which shows 29% support for dissolving the US into smaller entities. May be relevant for this article. feminist (talk) 04:51, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
This sentence is strangely out of place here. Unless it can be explained, it should be removed: “ Within days, Kansas was admitted to the Union as a free state, an issue at the time similar to the 20th and 21st-century debate over statehood for the District of Columbia.”
Nothing in the paragraph enlightens as to what this similarity might be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sychonic ( talk • contribs) 23:36, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I think this article needs to be split up. Right now, I see it covering three related but distinct topics: secession from the United States as a whole (including various independence movements such as Hawaiian independence movement), partition of states, and urban secession. Either the article should be re-organized to be more thematic, or (my preference) spin-offs created to cover the latter two. Presidentman talk · contribs ( Talkback) 23:01, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Added Republic of New Afrika to the list of regional secession movements vap ( talk) 00:18, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
The article
2012 U.S. state secession petitions was
nominated for
deletion.
The discussion was closed on 4 January 2024 with a consensus to
merge the content into
Secession in the United States. If you find that such action has not been taken promptly, please consider assisting in the merger instead of re-nominating the article for deletion. To discuss the merger, please use this talk page. Do not remove this template after completing the merger. A bot will replace it with {{
afd-merged-from}}. |
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
| |||
|
|||
According to the article State of Jefferson, " The independence movement (rather than statehood) is instead known as Cascadia". The State of Jefferson is listed in this article under "51st state proposals and movements", but it is also listed under "Regional Secession", where it states "The State of Jefferson is a movement in and around the area of Yreka, CA to secede from the union and become an independent state". As there is no evidence to support this I propose this be removed from the article. 72.67.179.128 ( talk) 23:46, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
While groups like the Republic of Texas, League of the South, Confederate Society of America and others have been working toward secession (either individual states or regionally) for many years there is a new wave of interest nationally. Should we include a section on the 2012 Secession Petitions that have been initiated by individuals in 20 states so far? Here's an article about it. Coinmanj ( talk) 00:27, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Regionalisms in the United States (i.e. Appalachia in the South and " Deseret" by Mormons in Utah) are strong subcultures much alike Cascadia and New England. Some subcultures feel they are "nations" or provincial entities inside a nation (the USA). Both regions and states would have few individuals or groups for secession or autonomy of some kind, that's the way it is. In a federal democracy, each voluntary state decides whether or not to remain members of an unitary confederation, not forcibly banded into one. 71.102.1.95 ( talk) 11:53, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the original research from the tagged section since little progress to address it have been made since it was tagged last month. Included in the material I deleted were large quotes from the Federalist Papers. These documents are primary sources -- the problem is that the efforts to interpret what the quoted sections really meant were original research unsupported by reliable secondary sources. While some of the interpretation may be uncontroversial and accurate (for example the discussion of Hamilton), the section on Madison drew conclusions not apparent from the material being cited. The end result of the quotes from Madison was that the wikipedia editor concluded:
Hence, by 1800, Madison held that secession was solely at the discretion of a state's People, who were in fact the state's ruling sovereigns; and that there was "no higher tribunal"—including the Supreme Court—than a state's People for determining issues of nullifying federal laws, or for seceding from the federal Union entirely.
This interpretation obviously cannot stand unless it can be attributed to a reliable secondary source. The basic idea of Madison describing the Constitution as part Federal and part National is not controversial and could be supported by relliable sources, but these source reach a much different conclusion than the wiki editor did. Tom (North Shoreman) ( talk) 19:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
The article states 10 states seceded on the same day, June 8, 1861, nearly 2 months after the American Civil War began on April 12, 1861.
The [ article] on the Confederate States of America gives 10 different dates on which these 10 states seceded, none of which were June 8. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.174.0.229 ( talk) 04:21, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
Proposal: I propose that the section "Secession from a State" be removed, as it deals not with secession but with separation. Secession has a specific legal meaning: not every division of a political territory is a secession. The counties that made up, e.g., Maine, Kentucky, and West Virginia, were creatures of their mother States, respectively, and had never existed as sovereignties prior to their separation from the mother States. They had never acceded to their mother States and therefore could not secede from them. They merely separated from them, with their consent (disputed in the case of Virginia & West Virginia, but settled de facto by the U. S. army, and recognized de jure by the U. S. Supreme Court). I have not boldly deleted the section because I would not oppose having it moved to a more appropriate article: maybe a new article called "Division of States in the United States". My only concern here is the correct use of the term "secession", which does not apply to the cases listed in this section. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 17:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)
Thanks to Drdpw for taking the appropriate action. I'm against the proposed merger, for reasons I give on that article's talk page. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 19:46, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
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Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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Secession in the United States. Please take a moment to review
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We can't state that someone inferred something, that's clearly original research. But if it helps, here's some stuff he did say:
"Professor Akhil Reed A mar has written extensively on sovereignty and secession. See Akhil Reed Amar, “'[Tie Consent of the Governed: Constitutional Amendment Outside Article V,” 94 Coluni. L Rev. (1994) 457, 507 (rejecting state’s unilateral right to secede, and finding Supremacy Clause ’’logically inconsistent with the sovereignty of the people of each slate”); Akhil Reed Amar, ‘‘Some New World Lessons for the Old World,” 58 U. Chi. L Rev. (1991) 483. 502 (“Only a national majority, not a majority of a single state or region, can lawfully dissolve the American Union”); and Akhil Reed Amar, “Of Sovereignty and Federalism,” 96 Yale L.J. (1987) 1425. 1462 (arguing that ratification of the Constitution "prospectively abolished (the pre-existing sovereign right of any non-ratifying stale to secede from its sister states] for each state People who joined the Union, thereby melting themselves into the larger common sovereignly of the People of America”)." [1]
I also think that using Madison as a primary sources is against policy. We need a secondary source for that. Doug Weller talk 12:36, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
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I have just modified 9 external links on Secession in the United States. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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The editor is trying to argue that Virginia somehow made its ratification of the Constitution conditional upon a right to secede. His/her source is a book review of "The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Constitution" written on the MISES INSTITUTE website ( [2]. This fails as a reliable sourceon two counts -- the Mises Institute is noted for pressing net-confederate views and the book itself fails to meet any scholarly standards. User Audeamus42 is also edit warring at Origins of the American Civil War using similar "arguments". He/she needs to make arguments supporting his/her case and refrain from further changes to the article until there is a consensus to do so. Tom (North Shoreman) ( talk) 00:06, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
I think that the listing of the dates that each state seceded should be put into table form instead of the list form it's in now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenJenkins ( talk • contribs) 04:01, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
I have removed an entry to this article discussing the so-called " Capital Hill Autonomous Zone" in Seattle. The sources generally do not discuss this phenomenon as "secession from the United States" and to include it here (1) would not be supported by the sources and (2) would be a form of forbidden original research/synthesis. Moreover, even to the extent it is discussed in sources as "succession" (which I have not seen), it would be undue weight.
I'll note that some of the sources cited in the most recent edit are also not RS (Heavy.com is a low-quality aggregator; City Journal is a magazine published by a rather partisan think tank).
Per WP:ONUS, this challenged material must not be re-added absent a consensus. I am bringing the matter here for discussion. Neutrality talk 02:49, 13 June 2020 (UTC)
New poll from BrightLineWatch which shows 29% support for dissolving the US into smaller entities. May be relevant for this article. feminist (talk) 04:51, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
This sentence is strangely out of place here. Unless it can be explained, it should be removed: “ Within days, Kansas was admitted to the Union as a free state, an issue at the time similar to the 20th and 21st-century debate over statehood for the District of Columbia.”
Nothing in the paragraph enlightens as to what this similarity might be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sychonic ( talk • contribs) 23:36, 14 May 2021 (UTC)
I think this article needs to be split up. Right now, I see it covering three related but distinct topics: secession from the United States as a whole (including various independence movements such as Hawaiian independence movement), partition of states, and urban secession. Either the article should be re-organized to be more thematic, or (my preference) spin-offs created to cover the latter two. Presidentman talk · contribs ( Talkback) 23:01, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
Added Republic of New Afrika to the list of regional secession movements vap ( talk) 00:18, 21 November 2023 (UTC)