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I believed the article needed some expanding on the importance of the hyroglyphic discovery and Vyse's role in it, considering that the discovery is the prime evidence used by Egyptologists to declare that the Great Pyramid was constructed by Egyptians. Aside from this one single inscription the entire Pyramid is devoid of any kind of writing. Therefore, if the inscription is indeed a forgery then it casts doubt on the belief of an Egyptian Great Pyramid. I included a link from a reputable university website to help expand the investigation but would appreciate if anyone else has much to add. Huronking.
Richard William Howard Vyse inherited Boughton Hall from his grandmother Lady Lucy Howard in 1795. He was a noted Egyptologist and traveller. His grandmother was a sister of the 2nd Earl of Strafford and daughter of the 1st Earl who had bought Boughton in 1717 as his base in the Midlands.
[1]
[2] dates 1784-1853.
Short Biography: British army officer, excavator, author and benefactor. He undertook excavations at the pyramids at Gizeh with Giovanni Battista Caviglia.
[3]
Richard William Howard HOWARD-VYSE JP, MP was born 25 Jul 1784. He died 8 Jun 1853. Richard married Frances HESKETH on 13 Nov 1810.
[4]
Father – General Richard Vyse married Ann Howard, daughter of Field Marshall Sir George Howard and Lady Lucy Wentworth, in 1780.
MP for Tiverton and Honiton (1812)
It seems there is a fairly large discrepancy between the date of Vyse's death. In this article it is listed as 1853. There is one sourced link which gives a date of 1872 and that is labeled as an incorrect date of death. However, another Wiki article does list 1872 as Vyse's death. [ [5]] What is the source of the 1853 date of death and which one is correct? HuronKing. August 8th 2006
Looking at the article for William Wentworth, the second Earl, it states that he died without issue. As there is no citation other than the DNB article which cites Thomas, I believe that fact and source should take precedence. -- billinghurst ( talk) 05:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC) (see next item)
DNB was the source, and a Google search of Vyse 1853 shows multiple instances, and this is the closest as authoritative Vyse Gentleman's Magazine. Actually, this cite's Lucy the daughter of Thomas (see above)-- billinghurst ( talk) 05:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I tried to rewrite the paragraph on the theory that he wrote the pyramid inscriptions himself. i am familiar with this idea, but i think it needs to be worded less emphatically to meet NPOV. Its a small minority, i dont believe many mainstream egyptologists subscribe to it, but i do believe it deserves entry as a minor but notable interpretation. if i butchered it while attempting npov, all errors are mine. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 01:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I have added links to online full text scans of all three volumes of "Operations Carried on at the Pyramids of Gizeh in 1837, as found on archive.org. Since the old link to volume 3 of this work, which pointed to google books, did not work in my country, I have removed the old link. In case anyone disagrees, I have retained it here:
GuyHill ( talk) 16:45, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
This subject (and indeed Vyse himself) has now been comprehensively dealt with in a new book "The Great Pyramid Hoax" by Scott Creighton (2017). Could this be incorporated into the main text, or at least listed as a reference at the bottom of the page? https://www.amazon.com/Great-Pyramid-Hoax-Conspiracy-Conceal/dp/159143789X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1485880786&sr=8-1&keywords=creighton+hoax — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.97.111 ( talk) 16:40, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
"However, the forgery claim is given no credence by historians and Egyptologists such as Selim Hassan,[14] Zahi Hawass,[12] Jaromir Malek,[15][16] Professor Rosalie David[17] or Bill Manley, or major museums such as the British Museum[18] and the Egyptian Museum,[19] all of whom accept that Khufu was the builder of the pyramid and by implication that Vyse's cartouche is authentic" - This sounds very much like circular reasoning to me. Without the cartouche, what physical evidence (not hearsay from Herodotus) is there to connect the actual pyramid (not tombs that surround it) directly with Khufu? This paragraph insults our intelligence. Just because a handful of Egyptologists agree amongst themselves that the Great Pyramid was built by Khufu doesn't make it so without hard physical evidence? Where is this evidence? The faked cartouche? And around we go. 5.81.204.239 ( talk) 16:44, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
Khruner, you write: "(forgery or not, a book written by an engineer is not a reliable source in this field. Furthermore, it has been already debunked by Jason Colavito)" And you think Colavito IS a reliabvle source in this field? He's a journalist and anthropologist, NOT an Egyptologist. Creighton's book has been endorsed by an actual Egyptologist (Lorraine Evans) - it's right there in his book. Over and above which, you don't need to be an Egytologist to spot a forgery, just someone who thinks critically and logically - i.e. like an engineer. Also, read the BTL comments on Colavito's blog. His review of Creighton's work was made to look rather silly as he clearly had not properly read the forgery evidence Creighton presents in his book. If anyone was debunked, it was Colavito. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.81.204.152 ( talk) 11:32, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
We don't include anything and everything that appears in print in our articles, 5.81.204.152. Per WP:V and WP:NPOV, we use editorial judgement to assess the quality of a source, and weigh the prominence of opposing views within the literature as a whole. With that in mind, the source you are trying to introduce into the article:
The first two points make it an extremely unreliable source; the second two establish its argument as fringe. We already have multiple reliable, non-fringe sources in the article that discuss the forgery allegation in a balanced way, so the issue is hardly being "censored". Since there is a clear consensus not to add this source, continuing to do so is edit warring and may lead to you being blocked from editing. – Joe ( talk) 11:51, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
:
), and try to keep them as concise as possible. Otherwise the discussion becomes very hard to follow. –
Joe (
talk) 14:11, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
I've been giving this some further thought overnight and have concluded that the basis upon which my edit is being removed by other Wiki editors is totally ill-founded and wrong. The objection to my edit by the other editors here are on the basis that:
1) Creighton's book was not published by an academic publisher (implying that his book is not, therefore, a reliable source).
Creighton's publisher (Inner Traditions / Bear and Co) publishes books by many PhDs. Indeed, the Wiki entry here cites Sitchin's 'Stairway to Heaven' published by Harper Collins and also by Bear & Co. Is Harper Collins less of a reputable publisher simply because it published Sitchin's work? And if Sitchin can be cited in this Wiki article by having Bear and Co as his publisher, then there can be no objection to Creighton's publisher as it is the same publisher as Sitchin. Are we to decide what material is permitted here on Wiki based on the publishing house a particular source comes from? Of course we don't and it would be wrong to do so.
2) Creighton is not an Egyptologist and his research was not subject to peer review.
Creighton's book is NOT an academic book about Egyptology. It is not about Egyptology AT ALL. It is a book that is essentially investigates a possible crime within the Great Pyramid in 1837. As such, Creighton need not be an Egyptologist to conduct such an investigation nor does his book require to be peer-reviewed by any academic panel as it is not an academic work. To insist my edit be removed on this basis is totally flawed and wrong.
3) Creighton himself is regarded as a 'fringe' author.
Even if Creighton has written books that some here regard as fringe should not cloud the issue of this book which is NOT fringe. There are no pyramid power plants or pyramid pumps or anything else that might remotely be considered as 'woo woo' in this book. If we start throwing out sources simply because we object to some of their other works then that is a very dangerous and slippy slope indeed. And given that Creighton's book is the ONLY book to thoroughly investigate this forgery controversy then it is notable for that fact alone and, as such, should be included under the controversy section of Vyse's bio. As the article presently stands the only source for evidence of the forgery given in the piece is Sitchin's which Creighton himself has largely dismissed. In the article, FIVE Egyptologists and TWO museums are cited in support of the authenticity of these marks so, to get nearer some semblance of balance, the article should have other sources that provides other evidence that questions the authenticity of the marks. Creighton's book does exactly that and, as such, should be included under the controversy section of the page.
And finally - the article presents various Egyptologists stating their views that the painted marks in the chambers are 4,500 years old. Given the controversy surrounding these marks, where is THEIR evidence to back up such statements? Just because something may appear authentic does not make it authentic. Where is the modern scientific evidence that backs up what these Egyptologists are saying? If there is none then that should be stated in the article. The word of a known fraudster falls far short of the level of evidence required to pronounce upon the authenticity of the marks.
Given my thoughts above I once again request that my original edit be included under the appropriate 'Controversy' section of the article. (I cannot add it myself now as the article has now been 'padlocked' for edits). Should my edit not be added then we will simply have to escalate this dispute to the next level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.81.204.152 ( talk) 10:41, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
So, how do we get this article unlocked? 5.81.204.152 ( talk) 15:40, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
As always, the "Talk" page is a great source of entertainment. However, with all this arguing as to who are qualified egyptologists and who are not, I cannot help but question how many of those arguing on this (and other subjects on Wikipedia) are qualified editors of non-fiction works? -- RISadler ( talk) 12:44, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Ok - I agree with the IP 5.81. I see no reason why Scott Creighton's book 'The Great Pyramid Hoax' (which I recently finished reading) should not be cited in this article which is about Howard Vyse. Why should Creighton's book require a specialist Egyptologist to cite it before it can be cited here on Wiki when it's not a book about Egyptology but rather a book about the life of Vyse and his part in a potential fraud? That's like saying only mathematicians or other scientists can write a biography on Einstein or Newton before their work can be cited here on Wiki. Completely ridiculous. Like the IP above said already, this book is a biography of this guy Vyse and is probably the only book of its kind to fully explore the life and times of this guy. It totally deserves to be and should be cited in this article about Vyse. Over and above which - this Wiki article clearly has lifted a lot of new stuff, more recent material about Vyse's life straight from Creighton's book. It's just not right that Creighton's research/book is not being given due recognition or at least cited in the reference section. Or is their something else I am missing here? 72.43.174.43 ( talk) 23:01, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Recognized expert? Who needs to be a recognized expert at writing a biography on someone? I'm just sayin this book should be cited in the reference section because it is essentially a biography about Vyse's life and this Wiki article is a mini bio of his life. What's the freakin problem guys? Anyways thats my thoughts. Whatever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.43.174.43 ( talk) 14:30, 3 October 2017 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I believed the article needed some expanding on the importance of the hyroglyphic discovery and Vyse's role in it, considering that the discovery is the prime evidence used by Egyptologists to declare that the Great Pyramid was constructed by Egyptians. Aside from this one single inscription the entire Pyramid is devoid of any kind of writing. Therefore, if the inscription is indeed a forgery then it casts doubt on the belief of an Egyptian Great Pyramid. I included a link from a reputable university website to help expand the investigation but would appreciate if anyone else has much to add. Huronking.
Richard William Howard Vyse inherited Boughton Hall from his grandmother Lady Lucy Howard in 1795. He was a noted Egyptologist and traveller. His grandmother was a sister of the 2nd Earl of Strafford and daughter of the 1st Earl who had bought Boughton in 1717 as his base in the Midlands.
[1]
[2] dates 1784-1853.
Short Biography: British army officer, excavator, author and benefactor. He undertook excavations at the pyramids at Gizeh with Giovanni Battista Caviglia.
[3]
Richard William Howard HOWARD-VYSE JP, MP was born 25 Jul 1784. He died 8 Jun 1853. Richard married Frances HESKETH on 13 Nov 1810.
[4]
Father – General Richard Vyse married Ann Howard, daughter of Field Marshall Sir George Howard and Lady Lucy Wentworth, in 1780.
MP for Tiverton and Honiton (1812)
It seems there is a fairly large discrepancy between the date of Vyse's death. In this article it is listed as 1853. There is one sourced link which gives a date of 1872 and that is labeled as an incorrect date of death. However, another Wiki article does list 1872 as Vyse's death. [ [5]] What is the source of the 1853 date of death and which one is correct? HuronKing. August 8th 2006
Looking at the article for William Wentworth, the second Earl, it states that he died without issue. As there is no citation other than the DNB article which cites Thomas, I believe that fact and source should take precedence. -- billinghurst ( talk) 05:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC) (see next item)
DNB was the source, and a Google search of Vyse 1853 shows multiple instances, and this is the closest as authoritative Vyse Gentleman's Magazine. Actually, this cite's Lucy the daughter of Thomas (see above)-- billinghurst ( talk) 05:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I tried to rewrite the paragraph on the theory that he wrote the pyramid inscriptions himself. i am familiar with this idea, but i think it needs to be worded less emphatically to meet NPOV. Its a small minority, i dont believe many mainstream egyptologists subscribe to it, but i do believe it deserves entry as a minor but notable interpretation. if i butchered it while attempting npov, all errors are mine. Mercurywoodrose ( talk) 01:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I have added links to online full text scans of all three volumes of "Operations Carried on at the Pyramids of Gizeh in 1837, as found on archive.org. Since the old link to volume 3 of this work, which pointed to google books, did not work in my country, I have removed the old link. In case anyone disagrees, I have retained it here:
GuyHill ( talk) 16:45, 9 March 2013 (UTC)
This subject (and indeed Vyse himself) has now been comprehensively dealt with in a new book "The Great Pyramid Hoax" by Scott Creighton (2017). Could this be incorporated into the main text, or at least listed as a reference at the bottom of the page? https://www.amazon.com/Great-Pyramid-Hoax-Conspiracy-Conceal/dp/159143789X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1485880786&sr=8-1&keywords=creighton+hoax — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.108.97.111 ( talk) 16:40, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
"However, the forgery claim is given no credence by historians and Egyptologists such as Selim Hassan,[14] Zahi Hawass,[12] Jaromir Malek,[15][16] Professor Rosalie David[17] or Bill Manley, or major museums such as the British Museum[18] and the Egyptian Museum,[19] all of whom accept that Khufu was the builder of the pyramid and by implication that Vyse's cartouche is authentic" - This sounds very much like circular reasoning to me. Without the cartouche, what physical evidence (not hearsay from Herodotus) is there to connect the actual pyramid (not tombs that surround it) directly with Khufu? This paragraph insults our intelligence. Just because a handful of Egyptologists agree amongst themselves that the Great Pyramid was built by Khufu doesn't make it so without hard physical evidence? Where is this evidence? The faked cartouche? And around we go. 5.81.204.239 ( talk) 16:44, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
Khruner, you write: "(forgery or not, a book written by an engineer is not a reliable source in this field. Furthermore, it has been already debunked by Jason Colavito)" And you think Colavito IS a reliabvle source in this field? He's a journalist and anthropologist, NOT an Egyptologist. Creighton's book has been endorsed by an actual Egyptologist (Lorraine Evans) - it's right there in his book. Over and above which, you don't need to be an Egytologist to spot a forgery, just someone who thinks critically and logically - i.e. like an engineer. Also, read the BTL comments on Colavito's blog. His review of Creighton's work was made to look rather silly as he clearly had not properly read the forgery evidence Creighton presents in his book. If anyone was debunked, it was Colavito. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.81.204.152 ( talk) 11:32, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
We don't include anything and everything that appears in print in our articles, 5.81.204.152. Per WP:V and WP:NPOV, we use editorial judgement to assess the quality of a source, and weigh the prominence of opposing views within the literature as a whole. With that in mind, the source you are trying to introduce into the article:
The first two points make it an extremely unreliable source; the second two establish its argument as fringe. We already have multiple reliable, non-fringe sources in the article that discuss the forgery allegation in a balanced way, so the issue is hardly being "censored". Since there is a clear consensus not to add this source, continuing to do so is edit warring and may lead to you being blocked from editing. – Joe ( talk) 11:51, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
:
), and try to keep them as concise as possible. Otherwise the discussion becomes very hard to follow. –
Joe (
talk) 14:11, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
I've been giving this some further thought overnight and have concluded that the basis upon which my edit is being removed by other Wiki editors is totally ill-founded and wrong. The objection to my edit by the other editors here are on the basis that:
1) Creighton's book was not published by an academic publisher (implying that his book is not, therefore, a reliable source).
Creighton's publisher (Inner Traditions / Bear and Co) publishes books by many PhDs. Indeed, the Wiki entry here cites Sitchin's 'Stairway to Heaven' published by Harper Collins and also by Bear & Co. Is Harper Collins less of a reputable publisher simply because it published Sitchin's work? And if Sitchin can be cited in this Wiki article by having Bear and Co as his publisher, then there can be no objection to Creighton's publisher as it is the same publisher as Sitchin. Are we to decide what material is permitted here on Wiki based on the publishing house a particular source comes from? Of course we don't and it would be wrong to do so.
2) Creighton is not an Egyptologist and his research was not subject to peer review.
Creighton's book is NOT an academic book about Egyptology. It is not about Egyptology AT ALL. It is a book that is essentially investigates a possible crime within the Great Pyramid in 1837. As such, Creighton need not be an Egyptologist to conduct such an investigation nor does his book require to be peer-reviewed by any academic panel as it is not an academic work. To insist my edit be removed on this basis is totally flawed and wrong.
3) Creighton himself is regarded as a 'fringe' author.
Even if Creighton has written books that some here regard as fringe should not cloud the issue of this book which is NOT fringe. There are no pyramid power plants or pyramid pumps or anything else that might remotely be considered as 'woo woo' in this book. If we start throwing out sources simply because we object to some of their other works then that is a very dangerous and slippy slope indeed. And given that Creighton's book is the ONLY book to thoroughly investigate this forgery controversy then it is notable for that fact alone and, as such, should be included under the controversy section of Vyse's bio. As the article presently stands the only source for evidence of the forgery given in the piece is Sitchin's which Creighton himself has largely dismissed. In the article, FIVE Egyptologists and TWO museums are cited in support of the authenticity of these marks so, to get nearer some semblance of balance, the article should have other sources that provides other evidence that questions the authenticity of the marks. Creighton's book does exactly that and, as such, should be included under the controversy section of the page.
And finally - the article presents various Egyptologists stating their views that the painted marks in the chambers are 4,500 years old. Given the controversy surrounding these marks, where is THEIR evidence to back up such statements? Just because something may appear authentic does not make it authentic. Where is the modern scientific evidence that backs up what these Egyptologists are saying? If there is none then that should be stated in the article. The word of a known fraudster falls far short of the level of evidence required to pronounce upon the authenticity of the marks.
Given my thoughts above I once again request that my original edit be included under the appropriate 'Controversy' section of the article. (I cannot add it myself now as the article has now been 'padlocked' for edits). Should my edit not be added then we will simply have to escalate this dispute to the next level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.81.204.152 ( talk) 10:41, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
So, how do we get this article unlocked? 5.81.204.152 ( talk) 15:40, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
As always, the "Talk" page is a great source of entertainment. However, with all this arguing as to who are qualified egyptologists and who are not, I cannot help but question how many of those arguing on this (and other subjects on Wikipedia) are qualified editors of non-fiction works? -- RISadler ( talk) 12:44, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
Ok - I agree with the IP 5.81. I see no reason why Scott Creighton's book 'The Great Pyramid Hoax' (which I recently finished reading) should not be cited in this article which is about Howard Vyse. Why should Creighton's book require a specialist Egyptologist to cite it before it can be cited here on Wiki when it's not a book about Egyptology but rather a book about the life of Vyse and his part in a potential fraud? That's like saying only mathematicians or other scientists can write a biography on Einstein or Newton before their work can be cited here on Wiki. Completely ridiculous. Like the IP above said already, this book is a biography of this guy Vyse and is probably the only book of its kind to fully explore the life and times of this guy. It totally deserves to be and should be cited in this article about Vyse. Over and above which - this Wiki article clearly has lifted a lot of new stuff, more recent material about Vyse's life straight from Creighton's book. It's just not right that Creighton's research/book is not being given due recognition or at least cited in the reference section. Or is their something else I am missing here? 72.43.174.43 ( talk) 23:01, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
Recognized expert? Who needs to be a recognized expert at writing a biography on someone? I'm just sayin this book should be cited in the reference section because it is essentially a biography about Vyse's life and this Wiki article is a mini bio of his life. What's the freakin problem guys? Anyways thats my thoughts. Whatever. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.43.174.43 ( talk) 14:30, 3 October 2017 (UTC)