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I think this article clearly has lots of potential.. but there is much work to do. I didn't read the entire thing, but here is what i didn't like.. it's too long. Huge chunks of it could be split up into different articles, like the huge chunk on macroevolution could be summarized and moved to it's own article (called something other than "macroevolution".. like "creationist arguments against macroevolution"). Same with the Abiogenesis.. and its first sentence "The natural origin of life remains elusive to science, and is a limited field of research despite its impact on human understanding of our world." somehow feels like it's trying to convince me of something, and not explaining to me what Abiogenesis is.. and i don't like that one bit. And the gigantic "Perspectives on the debate over time" has to be moved and summarized.
More generally speaking, when I read this article, many times it really feels like it's a creationist writing, and trying to convince me of something by using language tricks and logical fallacies to their benefit.. which is really annoying. But I think it can all be fixed.. since there is actual content here that belongs in Wikipedia; maybe it just needs more people to read the article (it seems the discussions are generally among the same people.. who have a pretty good idea what the other thinks).. other people's input would also be great for advancing your talks on the definitions of things. but keep up the good work :)
cheers, Mlm42 22:37, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I just dropped in here at the request of another user. I'm confused as to the purpose of this article--what, exactly, is the debate that the article is supposed to describe? Whether Creationism should be taught in schools? Whether evolution is true? Aren't these covered in other entries? Those aren't really debates, anyway; for purposes of an encyclopedia, the Lincoln-Douglas debates are the sort of debate worthy of an entry, actual debates that took place at a particular place and time, not just a broadly controversial group of topics. A general forum for ongoing argument isn't appropriate to an encyclopedia, is it? (And there are no shortage of such forums on the internet, in any case).
The list of different creationist and evolutionist positions seems useful, but for the most part this just seems like a disorganized dump of all sorts of claims and arguments in the vicinity of creationism and evolution. If some specific debate cannot be agreed upon as the subject here, then I suggest the entry be renamed to describe a specific topic not already covered. And if this isn't addressing a concrete topic that is not covered elsewhere, why should the article exist? -- BTfromLA 18:27, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is no debate between creation and evolution because creation is religion and evolution is science and science and religion inherently can not conflict. However there are people who nevertheless think there is a conflict, and the perpetual conflict between these people is what constitutes the "creation vs. evolution debate". To allow for this debate, evolution and creation are given new arbitrary or persuasive meanings. The conflation of evolution with athiesm is one example of this. Another example is considering creationism as science. Bensaccount 01:36, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The conflict exists, but the page should describe it rather than taking part in it. It must emphasize that the definitions of evolution and creation used are popular definitions but not standard ones, and that the debate creates a false dichotomy. If the page remains a forum for the debate rather than a description of it, it should be deleted. Bensaccount 02:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
there are three povs regarding the nature of the debate. 1) by evolutionists, that it is naturalistic science versus religion. 2) by creationists, that it is creation science versus atheism 3) by evolutionary creationists, that it is a false dichotomy.
currently the opener takes the first pov. while that is a valid pov, it is NOT appropriate for the page to take that pov as fact. bensaccount's profound ignorance regarding what creationists believe notwithstanding, creationists DO believe that the evidence points to creation, not evolution, and that the debate is therefore creation science versus atheism. it is not appropriate for the page to take any one of the above povs are fact, because this is a page about the debate and therefore must deal evenhandedly with all sides. any suggestions on resolving this issue? Ungtss 13:16, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
One's view of the debate often depends on one's perspective. Advocates of secularism and the theory of evolution typically see the debate in terms of "science" versus "traditional religious belief and pseudoscience." Advocates of creationism typically see the debate in terms of "creation science" versus "Atheism and pseudoscience." Advocates of evolutionary creationism typically see the debate as a false dichotomy, because the religious belief in God as creator is compatible with the science of evolution.
The debate is a false dichotomy. Don't present facts as if they are points of view. Bensaccount 20:56, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Blinding yourself doesn't change the facts. Bensaccount 22:49, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There are things that are true whether or not you or I believe in them. Contrary to what you think the world is not all fantasy. Bensaccount 03:02, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The world is round regardless of if everone thinks it flat. Bensaccount 05:14, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Try and focus on one subject Ungtss. Anyways, religion is not fact; religion is belief. Bensaccount 19:03, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Which brings up the theme of conflation of science and religion. Bensaccount 19:13, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Religion is the belief in who Jesus was and why he died. What you speak of is not religion. Why must you keep changing the subject? Bensaccount 00:12, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Your digressive rant only serves to prove you don't know what a false dichotomy is. Bensaccount 03:11, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article, and this talk page, depresses me: people here don't seem to understand what a point of view is (see Ungtss's "fact" that the eye was created intact). Or perhaps that's the point; if you believe it's a *fact* that you can calculate the age of the Earth by counting the generations in the Bible then I don't suppose you can recognise that it's a point of view. That's the fatal flaw in having this page as a Wikipedia article. I would also point out - from the Wikipedia page on Belief - that belief is categorically not "either fact or falsehood" but rather "assent to a proposition" - watch out for both the Excluded middle and the logical fallacy that you can prove religious claims using historical evidence. nof20 05:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As editors of an encyclopedia, and hopefully an encyclopedia of quality, I hope we can all remember that above all, our commitment should be first and foremost to good writing. No one wants to read, quote from, or attribute a poorly-written article. This is especially vital in the case of articles such as this one, edited by contending sides. Edits should not appear in the article like bomb craters in a war zone; the flow of the article should remain seamless and coherent from one edit to the next. So when you insert your passionate rebuttal to someone's evolutionist or creationist nonsense, PLEASE take a moment to make sure it fits in with the surrounding text, that your point isn't duplicated by a sentence one or two lines above or below, and that you have written it in a consistent voice, so it doesn't read like a harsh choir practice. Graft 20:46, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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The quote from Scott (1997) was this: "The vertebrate eye was Paley's classic example, well known to educated people of the nineteenth century, of design in nature. Darwin deliberately used the example of the vertebrate eye in The Origin of Species to demonstrate how complexity and intricate design could come about through natural selection, which of course is not a chance phenomenon. In creationist literature, evolution is synonymous with chance. In scientific accounts, there are random or chance elements in the generation of genetic variation, but natural selection, acting upon this genetic variation, is the antithesis of chance. In the Progressive creationism tradition, Intelligent design allows for a fair amount of microevolution, but supporters deny that mutation and natural selection are adequate to explain the evolution of one 'kind' to another, such as chordates from echinoderms, or human beings from apes. These and the origin of life are considered too complex to be explained naturally, thus Intelligent design demands that a role be left for the intelligent designer, God" (Scott 1997, p. 280). In my opinion, the interpretation of Scott in the current page mangles what Scott explicitly said and makes an inaccurate and uncited, unsupported, and illogical rebuttal that does not even make sense. That is only my opinion. 8)) I would suggest that if you want to insert that rebuttal, that is fine. But please don't make the war crater that you did. Please paraphrase, quote, and cite some other scholar in a preceding or following section that accurately reflects what some rebuttal scholar actually wrote, please. --- Rednblu | Talk 07:33, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Here's what I think. The page currently has no clear reason to exist; unless and until it does, fussing over the contents is a waste of time. I'll propose three solutions to this problem, you may have others.
1. Define this as an article that discusses the social history of conflicts between creationism and evolution. No scientific or religious arguments, just historical accounts of points where laws were written, people jailed, institutions formed or changed in relation to this conflict. The Scopes trial and the recent business about stickers in textbooks would be the type of thing discussed in this history.
2. Make this a links page. A minimal narrative: these are the major viewpoints, these are some prominent figures, these are the contentious issues. Almost no discussion, just point to the relevant articles. I'm not sure this is really needed, but at least it would clarify the aim of the page.
3. Delete the page. See if it is missed. If there is some need for this article, deleting it might be the best way of identifying that need.
--16:24, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
excellent thinking. here's another possibility: the current page contains the material for several pages:
what do you think? Ungtss 17:15, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think the wikiquote idea is fine, though I guess that means deleting this page and starting another, right? Your first two suggestions strikes me as still being overbroad, especially given all the wrangling that attends to the most straigthforward representation of these topics--those seem more like premises for books than encyclopedia articles. My vote is to either adopt the "social history of the conflicts" idea or just delete the page. I do think the "continuum" is useful and should find a home somewhere on wikipedia. -- BTfromLA 06:05, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Bensaccount recently edited to remove the second half of this sentence: "Advocates of evolutionary creationism typically see the debate as a false dichotomy, because they believe religious belief in God as creator is compatible with the science of evolution." I have restored it. This is a good example of evolutionism, an intolerant ideology, masquerading as evolution, a scientific theory, in that it won't even allow the statement of another's belief if it conflicts with its own. Many of the edits on these pages are also examples. Just as the definition of creationism changes "on-the-run," with great confusion between the variations in creationism, so does the definition of evolution, which conflates science with ideology in many cases on these pages. I will give this much credit, that some of the advocates of evolutionism, the ideology, believe so strongly that they cannot see this point, and are not lying when they try to equate their view with science. When someone says evolution is true, then one has gone beyond science, which uses a theory as a framework, but holds all its theories with healthy skepticism until a better comes along. Whenever one says evolution disproves God, then it is waaaaayyy beyond science and he/she has expressed a religious ideology. When one tries to convince others of this, then it has become an evangelistic religious idology. And when one goes beyond pursuasion, and tries to impose this view (through forced science curricula, court cases, etc.) then it has become a coercive religious ideology. Evolutionism today is fervently trying to suppress all opposing views through any possible means. Science, like religion, should be strong enough to stand on its own feet; it does not need to be force fed to one and all. All creationists, from young earth to evolutionary, unite to reject coercive religious ideologies, especially those that masquerade as science. Pollinator 14:17, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, evolution is compatible with creation, but no that is not why this is a false dichotomy. It is a false dichotomy because there are many other options than creation or evolution. Now could you please, explain to me why you keep replacing this statement? Bensaccount 15:56, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The lack of conflict between evolution and creation means there is no dichotomy, not that there is a false dichotomy. How long do you think you can push this lie before people start to notice? Bensaccount 22:59, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Nobody thinks that a false dichotomy results from a lack of conflict yet you write that: advocates of evolutionary creationism typically see the debate as a false dichotomy, because they believe religious belief in God as creator is compatible with the science of evolution.. This is a blatant lie. Bensaccount 23:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The reason this is a false dichotomy is not the compatibility of creation and evolution. Bensaccount 21:31, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is an old conversation. I have since realized that there is more than one reason why this is a false dichotomy (see below). The above statement should read: "The reason this is a false dichotomy is not only the compatibility of creation and evolution. Bensaccount 01:53, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
okay. now. how do you suggest allowing the intro to be broader than your pov -- for instance, to include people that disagree with you on every one of the above points? Ungtss 23:40, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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If you disagree, say so. Stop evading it. I recommend you start with point #1. Bensaccount 00:14, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How about we use terms the way that mainstream scientists use them? Here is an appropriate use of "false dichotomy." "The creationists assert a false dichotomy between micro- and macroevolution (Antolin & Herbers 2001)." Is that what you meant by "false dichotomy"? If it is, we could quickly dispense with this "problem" by inserting a section called "The false dichotomy in the debate" in which we could cite to all the published uses by mainstream scientists of the phrase "false dichotomy." 8))
That is a different issue. Bensaccount 00:14, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Still waiting, Ungtss. Bensaccount 22:38, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I am waiting for you to disagree with the above points. You allude that there are people who disagree but you don't say whom. Bensaccount 14:24, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As usual, you are vague and deceptuous. Are you saying Stephen Gould disagrees with all of the above points including the removal of lies and evasion? Please specify what he disagrees with and provide a quotation to prove it. Bensaccount 17:33, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The reason this is a false dichotomy is that these two viewpoints are presented as the only options when they are not. It is not the compatibility of creation and evolution.
The creation vs. evolution debate obviously creates a false dichotomy. If there is any disagreement from the usual liars (Ungtss, Rednblu, Rayment), now is the time and this is the section. Bensaccount 00:37, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Which means that representing it as a dichotomy is false. Bensaccount 22:36, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
aren't you getting a little crazy with this false dichotomy stuff? i mean most debates are 'false dichotomies', but that doesn't make them horribly wrong. actually, if my understanding is correct, every two sided debate is a false dichotomy unless it's A vs. (not A).. and a false dichotomy is only a problem if somewhere in the debate of A vs. B you say (not A) implies B. wouldn't you agree? Mlm42 22:47, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No it is not crazy. It is the truth and I intend to get it on the page. Bensaccount 23:09, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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Ok. What text on the Creation vs. evolution debate represents "the debate" as a dichotomy? Throughout the page, I see quotations of various proponents that argue a dichotomy. But the page itself definitely does not represent the debate as a dichotomy--because it represents a whole continuum of views that proponents argue in the debate. Where is the dichotomy? The page just represents what the various proponents in the debate actually say. That is what NPOV is all about. 8)) So what point-of-view do you think is not adequately represented on the current Creation vs. evolution debate page? --- Rednblu | Talk 03:44, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is correct. Neocapitalist
What is your point Graft; unlike you I don't value good prose over meaning or clarity. Bensaccount 14:05, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<Mainstream scientists counter by arguing that creationists are dead wrong in saying evolution requires innumerable unknown assumptions and causes, because, they claim, every cause and assumption for evolution has been objectively verified.>>
You are obviously complaining. Bensaccount 22:37, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<Mainstream scientists counter by arguing that creationists are dead wrong in saying evolution requires innumerable unknown assumptions and causes, because, they claim, enough causes and assumptions for evolution have been objectively verified to consider evolution nothing less than valid fact.>>
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You have a right to complain. In the end, that sentence should be cut unless there is some actual published scholar who said that. But I suggest that it should be left for the time-being--to be replaced in the future by what some published scholar actually said. 8)) However, in my opinion, the creationist claim to which that sentence replies is even more unjustified. How about we look for a published scholar who actually 1) says that "evolution requires innumerable unknown assumptions and causes" and 2) provides some rational argument for such a conclusion? :) --- Rednblu | Talk 03:55, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
well ... it seems that the "views compared" page is here to stay, and this page doesn't know what it is, but it's got a lot of good material. here's how i propose dividing up this megalith:
Thoughts? Ungtss 20:59, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Not having been on this page for about a week, I have now responded to some earlier points that were archived. See this revision comparison for my responses. Philip J. Rayment 02:21, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have given precise edit summaries for each of my individual edits, so if someone reverts I expect some rebuttal of my comments. Bensaccount 18:10, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Precise edit summaries"? I tend to agree with Rednblu, but here are some of your edit summaries and the rebuttal comments (as precise as your comments) that I would use if I was reverting:
The point is, you haven't given good reasons for your mass changes and deletions; rather you have provided a terse, almost meaningless, comment. You haven't, for example, explained how stuff you removed is "lies".
Philip J. Rayment 02:43, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
From that quote, I would assert that the essence of NPOV is paraphrasing, quoting, and citing to published scholars. --- Rednblu | Talk 22:32, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Only when necessary. Stop trying to wield NPOV as a weapon Rednblu. Bensaccount 22:37, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What non sequiturs? Bensaccount 23:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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<<<<#Pointless statement: One's view of the debate often depends on which side one takes in the debate.>>>>
<<This is pointless because we are trying to define the debate not everyone's view of the debate (which is not even possible). Now explain why it is necessary to include this statement Phillip.>>
Some people see the debate as a debate between science and religion. Other people see the debate as a debate between the science of one religion and the science of another religion. Yet others see the "debate" as a false dichotomy. Generally speaking, young-earth creationists and some old-earth creationists see the debate as a debate between the science of one religion and the science of another religion. Materialists see the debate as a debate between science and religion. Theistic evolutionists see the debate as a false dichotomy. Therefore, as the lines said, "One's view of the debate [i.e. how one sees the debate] often depends on which side one takes in the debate [i.e. YEC etc., materialist, or theistic evolutionist]". You can quibble over the details, but to me (and obviously most others here) that seems pretty correct, and pertinent.
Philip J. Rayment 05:49, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Speaking of non-sequiturs, saying that "theistic evolutionists see the debate as a false dichotomy" does not lead to the conclusion that "one's view of the debate often depends on which side one takes in the debate", since other "sides" also see the debate as a false dichotomy. Anyways, you digress, get to the point. How is this statement useful. Bensaccount 16:53, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Finally a reason. Unfortunately there is only heat in certain areas and among certain people, so this is incorrect. In the future, I suggest losing the hidden motives and going right out and saying what you are trying to imply. I don't like having to dig through these seemingly pointless statements to get to your insidious motives. Bensaccount 15:34, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You are trying to imply that this is a heated controversy. It is only a heated controversy in certain areas and among certain people. Therefore, you only present half the story. Bensaccount 15:28, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"The creation vs. evolution debate is the conflict among people who perceive disagreement regarding the origin of the universe, Earth, life, and humanity." Bensaccount, I don't get you. Are you trying to say that there is no disagreement about the origin of aforementioned things? Everybody agrees about the origin, but somehow, through an optical illusion or whatever, they perceive disagreement? -- Hob Gadling 16:28, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
It would be more correct to say: is the perpetual disagreement among people who think there is conflict regarding the origin or the universe. I'll change it. Bensaccount 22:35, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I do mean conflicting notions. I will add this. Bensaccount 16:36, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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May I remind everyone that our job here is to write about "what people say," not about "what is so." I have no objection to the content of Mr. Ben's statement; I have even looked for published scholars who say anything like that so that we could cite to it and develop a clear page in good style. However, if we add a section about "conflicting notions," it will violate NPOV policy because there is not one published scholar who has characterized the controversy as "conflicting notions." Every published scholar characterizes the conflict as a battle over "what is so." Wikipedia is no place for uncited personal research. --- Rednblu | Talk 19:10, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You may not, since what is so always takes precidence over what people say. Bensaccount 21:51, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes in Wikipedia. Bensaccount 22:19, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I removed the above statement. The lead section should summarize what the scholars cited in the article say. The above statement contradicts every scholar cited in the "References" section. --- Rednblu | Talk 23:04, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No the lead section should sumarize the article. Or more directly, it should summarize the subject. Bensaccount 17:04, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I moved the above comment here for discussion. Can somebody please explain this? It would help if there were a citation to a published scholar. 8)) --- Rednblu | Talk 09:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_earth_creationism
refers here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_vs._evolution_debate
I was curious if anybody has any way to interpret either the magentic evidence on the sea floors, or the paleobiological evidence in eastern and southern Africa, in any way consistent with any young earth theory -- or if there are any actual young earth theories (besides, just assertions of "God said so" I mean).
Neither of these articles seems to cover any scientific theory at all.
It is apparent that I can find a lot of name-calling, but, what I was wondering was, is there any science in the anti-evolution camps? Especially, is there any geologic or paleobiological science?
Frankly, no. There is nothing scientific about creationism. However, it is popular for people to conflate the two, and eventually this page will have a section regarding the conflation of science and religion. Bensaccount 16:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is plenty of science to creation, despite the denials of anti-creationists. I know that is just a bald statement, but then so are most of the claims to the contrary (unless they quote others making bald statements). FeloniousMonk's claim that it is unscientific by definition is a genetic fallacy. He is claiming that a theory is false because of the reasoning of the people proposing the theory, rather than on whether it actually is false or not. Many evolutionists believe evolution because they are atheists (or similar) who have rejected creation as even a possibility for consideration, but few anti-creationists will claim that that thereby invalidates evolution. Philip J. Rayment 23:44, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Step back from this repetitive discussion and observe the prevalent themes of conflation of science and religion, and persuasive or arbitrary definitions.
Bensaccount 15:50, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
okay, don'tgetmad. I moved the page wiktionary:controversy rather than wiktionary:debate. The former is more specific. It is used by both sides scientists (top right), creationists. Debate suggests a structured discussion where sides are equal, when this is not the case. Dunc| ☺ 11:56, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think you should have asked on this page before you made the move. I don't really think it makes much difference though, so long as one redirects to the other. Bensaccount 16:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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Let us not please import into Wikipedia the slanted bias of talk.origins. That bias is just one of many. The peer-reviewed publications should be considered also. And the peer reviewed publications, such as in Evolution or Quarterly Review of Biology, use "debate" just as often as "controversy" to describe what goes on among the proponents of creation and the proponents of evolution. We need to stop two things on this page 1) unilateral massive changes and 2) personal research that does not take into consideration what scholars actually say. This undiscussed move procedurally violated both those 'no-nos.' Substantively, either title for this page would represent what scholars actually have published on the topic of this debate. --- Rednblu | Talk 22:03, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Neither do I have any real problem with the move, other than that it was done without consultation (and I'm not convinced that it was necessary—it seems to be based on the nonsense that "there is no debate"). I also agree that Talk.Origins is a valid source for citations, but disagree that they represent "scientists" as distinct from "creationists". So if they are being used to show what anti-creationists or evolutionists (or whoever) think, that is okay, but not if they are being used to show what scientists think.
And just to be cheeky, I agree with Dunc that the sides are not equal. Evolutionists have the numbers (in certain quarters at least), but creationists have the better argument. :-)
Philip J. Rayment 23:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I move that we revert the Page Move back to the name Creation vs. evolution debate for the following reasons.
I moved the archives. Bensaccount 15:08, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Eventually this article needs a subsection about the debate being a false dichotomy. Any input for this subsection?
Previously I said that the debate is a false dichotomy because it sets up two alternative points of view as if they were the only options, when they are not (ie. see Hesiod's Theogony). I now realize there are in fact two reasons why this is a false dichotomy, the second being that the two options do not oppose eachother by contradiction. Bensaccount 04:01, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How is stating the obvious research? Bensaccount 15:51, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Are you refering to yourself? Bensaccount 16:30, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Rednblu doesn't think it is wrong, he says it may be true. So are you refering to yourself? Bensaccount 16:35, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<there is not one published scholar who even implies that "creation vs. evolution" is a false dichotomy.>>
Rednblu has never said I am wrong. Neither have you. You only imply that other people think I am wrong, and never produce any evidence of it. Bensaccount 16:46, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Huh? See [4] and the links it points to, and the literature given there. Eugenie Scott's "continuum" has been mentioned several times here. And if you think you know people's minds better than they themselves do, that's your private problem, and if you talk too much about it, not only those people won't take you very seriously. -- Hob Gadling 19:33, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
I also point to Eugenie Scott as a published scholar to points out that EvC sets up a false dichotomy http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/528_science_religion_and_evoluti_6_19_2001.asp Also, even our own false dilemma article uses EvC as an example. -- JPotter 19:42, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
A continuum of approaches to creation and evolution The creation vs evolution debate presents a dichotomy in which one must choose between either "creation" or "evolution". However there is in fact a continuum of approaches to creation and evolution. Following are some points-of-view along this continuum: -- JPotter 21:48, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
I think you digress. There is only one major false dichotomy here. The title itself should make that clear enough. Two views are set up as if they were the only options when they are not. Can anyone guess what the two views are? Bensaccount 15:22, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the title says there's a controversy between two options, and there is. In reality however, there are many options. Hence the subject is a false dichotomy. Bensaccount 00:26, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed the above statement. The lead section should summarize what the scholars cited in the article say. The above statement contradicts every scholar cited in the "References" section. --- Rednblu | Talk 23:04, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I did not realize that Darwin said that the creation vs. evolution debate is not a false dichotomy (in his book, the origin of the species, no less). Would it be too much trouble to for you to obtain the quotation on that? Bensaccount 17:51, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Oh and don't forget to inform the reader that Edgar Allan Poe found first hand proof that the words "evolution" or "creation" are not used arbitrarily or persuasively in this debate. ( Talk:Creation-evolution_controversy/archive_5#Arbitrary_or_persuasive_definitions). Bensaccount 17:57, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That was not "illogic", that was sarcasm. And it is absurd to cite the obvious. Bensaccount 18:12, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I didn't want to get into epistemology, but you redefine obviousness, so you leave me no choice. Obviousness does not depend on citation. You don't need to cite something for it to be obvious; that is the opposite of obviousness. You need to cite something when it is not obvious, because it is not easy to see or understand. 15:15, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Darwin never even vaguely implied that the creation vs. evolution debate is not a false dichotomy. What the hell are you talking about? Bensaccount 17:51, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I cut the above statement from the first sentence because it is logially inaccurate. The "controversy" is a religious and political argument among many different viewpoints: some say 1) creation and evolution are conflicting notions, some say 2) creation and evolution are compatible notions, some say 3) creation is religion and evolution is science, some say 4) 8))) creation vs. evolution is a false dichotomy, some say 5) creation and evolution are both just different speculations, . . . (Scott 1997). --- Rednblu | Talk 04:55, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The article states "Methodological materialism is the acceptance of the operating procedures and logical standards of the modern scientific method, rather than supernatural causes." This <Methodological materialism> is linked but goes nowhere. The definition frankly sounds like science, which does have an article. Is this serious, or some propaganda stuff?
Instead to engaging in the debate that gave rise to this section I've been searching published journals to fact check. There are a couple of problems with this section:
For the record my personal views lean toward the "continuum" viewpoint.-- FeloniousMonk 04:19, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is no reason to have an entire section dedicated to one persons incomplete viewpoint (cited or not). There are, however, obviously other viewpoints than the dichotomy this debate creates. Therefore, this section should list the various viewpoints on origin, and not just list Scott's viewpoints on origin. Bensaccount 17:19, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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Materialist evolutionism, Cultural materialism, and Evolutionist materialism were terms that Marvin Harris and other scholars used before 1970 to describe the rigorous theories in anthropology that looked only at data rather than consulting divine inspiration. 8))) The standard graduate student text is Marvin Harris's The Rise of Anthropological Theory or RAT as it is lovingly called. If I get time, I will put together a page on materialist evolutionism citing to RAT which was probably Dr. Scott's text. 8))) --- Rednblu | Talk 00:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Gallup Poll is still heavily biased.
If you add up the figures you get "0% stated that they believed that there was no God", clearly evidencing that the poll's figures only correspond to the already-religious group of people. Compared to a more mixed population, the figures become much more clearly a tiny minority of pro-creationists.
There is, after all, no county, state, or nation, with a majority of voters supporting the abolition of the teaching of evolution in favour of creationism. An important point showing the opinion of the populous, which is often overlooked.
---
8)) Not a good argument--in my opinion. I would not mind if you say that I am religious, but it does not make sense to say that I am religious. You could as well say that I am a Martian. I would not object, but it does not make sense. 8)) As for your criticism of Mr. Dreams's comment, I agree. Mr. Dreams's comment does not make sense. I am signing off before I say something that does not make sense. 8)) --- Rednblu | Talk 19:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yet again, someone (Bensaccount in this case) has put an "Totally Disputed" tag on without adequate explanation of what's wrong. All he said (in the edit comment) was "Unfortunately we need this tag again. There are certain short descriptions of the participants and the external links that are POV and incorrect. Not to mention the section dedicated to Eugenie Scott.
Because that has been discussion about Scott, I will not remove the tag. But the other reasons for putting the tag have not been explained sufficiently for someone to identify them and do something about it. Bensaccount, here is your opportunity to explain those other reasons (which you should have done at the time of including the tag). Others might actually disagree with you on Scott, and if so that would leave no legitimate reason for the tag remaining.
---
While I'm discussing that section, I want to mention a bit of POV editing that occurred recently. First, I wrote most of the "Participants" section, and I included the following two sentences:
I got both figures from their respective web-sites. Although I am a creationist, I saw no reason to dispute the latter figure, even though it was a larger number than claimed by CRS.
However, Old-copy-editor saw fit to change the first of these only to read (emphasis added):
Apparently a claim by a creationist group must be suspect and therefore qualified, but a similar claim by an evolutionist group is to be accepted!
I am reverting the change as I don't think he has any reason to question the CRS figure. If someone disagrees with me, at least have the courtesy to be consistent and change both sentences, please.
Philip J. Rayment 15:22, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"The consensus in the scientific community is firmly against creationism". This is "evolutionist" bias; the scientific community is not firmly against creationism. Bensaccount 21:39, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"the debate is maintained by a handful of religiously motivated creationist scientists and non-scientists who utilize the mass media arenas of the internet, publishing of books and periodicals, lecture tours, staged debates, and conventions to get across their message."
This is an incomplete picture of what causes this debate. The debate is also maintained by "evolutionists", such as Julian Huxley, who think that evolution leaves no room for God or creation. Generally the people who partake in the debate on either side are people who:
Therefore, point #1 above is central to any definition or description of the debate. Hence the section on non-standard definitions. Bensaccount 21:59, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I think this article clearly has lots of potential.. but there is much work to do. I didn't read the entire thing, but here is what i didn't like.. it's too long. Huge chunks of it could be split up into different articles, like the huge chunk on macroevolution could be summarized and moved to it's own article (called something other than "macroevolution".. like "creationist arguments against macroevolution"). Same with the Abiogenesis.. and its first sentence "The natural origin of life remains elusive to science, and is a limited field of research despite its impact on human understanding of our world." somehow feels like it's trying to convince me of something, and not explaining to me what Abiogenesis is.. and i don't like that one bit. And the gigantic "Perspectives on the debate over time" has to be moved and summarized.
More generally speaking, when I read this article, many times it really feels like it's a creationist writing, and trying to convince me of something by using language tricks and logical fallacies to their benefit.. which is really annoying. But I think it can all be fixed.. since there is actual content here that belongs in Wikipedia; maybe it just needs more people to read the article (it seems the discussions are generally among the same people.. who have a pretty good idea what the other thinks).. other people's input would also be great for advancing your talks on the definitions of things. but keep up the good work :)
cheers, Mlm42 22:37, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I just dropped in here at the request of another user. I'm confused as to the purpose of this article--what, exactly, is the debate that the article is supposed to describe? Whether Creationism should be taught in schools? Whether evolution is true? Aren't these covered in other entries? Those aren't really debates, anyway; for purposes of an encyclopedia, the Lincoln-Douglas debates are the sort of debate worthy of an entry, actual debates that took place at a particular place and time, not just a broadly controversial group of topics. A general forum for ongoing argument isn't appropriate to an encyclopedia, is it? (And there are no shortage of such forums on the internet, in any case).
The list of different creationist and evolutionist positions seems useful, but for the most part this just seems like a disorganized dump of all sorts of claims and arguments in the vicinity of creationism and evolution. If some specific debate cannot be agreed upon as the subject here, then I suggest the entry be renamed to describe a specific topic not already covered. And if this isn't addressing a concrete topic that is not covered elsewhere, why should the article exist? -- BTfromLA 18:27, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is no debate between creation and evolution because creation is religion and evolution is science and science and religion inherently can not conflict. However there are people who nevertheless think there is a conflict, and the perpetual conflict between these people is what constitutes the "creation vs. evolution debate". To allow for this debate, evolution and creation are given new arbitrary or persuasive meanings. The conflation of evolution with athiesm is one example of this. Another example is considering creationism as science. Bensaccount 01:36, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The conflict exists, but the page should describe it rather than taking part in it. It must emphasize that the definitions of evolution and creation used are popular definitions but not standard ones, and that the debate creates a false dichotomy. If the page remains a forum for the debate rather than a description of it, it should be deleted. Bensaccount 02:02, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
there are three povs regarding the nature of the debate. 1) by evolutionists, that it is naturalistic science versus religion. 2) by creationists, that it is creation science versus atheism 3) by evolutionary creationists, that it is a false dichotomy.
currently the opener takes the first pov. while that is a valid pov, it is NOT appropriate for the page to take that pov as fact. bensaccount's profound ignorance regarding what creationists believe notwithstanding, creationists DO believe that the evidence points to creation, not evolution, and that the debate is therefore creation science versus atheism. it is not appropriate for the page to take any one of the above povs are fact, because this is a page about the debate and therefore must deal evenhandedly with all sides. any suggestions on resolving this issue? Ungtss 13:16, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
One's view of the debate often depends on one's perspective. Advocates of secularism and the theory of evolution typically see the debate in terms of "science" versus "traditional religious belief and pseudoscience." Advocates of creationism typically see the debate in terms of "creation science" versus "Atheism and pseudoscience." Advocates of evolutionary creationism typically see the debate as a false dichotomy, because the religious belief in God as creator is compatible with the science of evolution.
The debate is a false dichotomy. Don't present facts as if they are points of view. Bensaccount 20:56, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Blinding yourself doesn't change the facts. Bensaccount 22:49, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There are things that are true whether or not you or I believe in them. Contrary to what you think the world is not all fantasy. Bensaccount 03:02, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The world is round regardless of if everone thinks it flat. Bensaccount 05:14, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Try and focus on one subject Ungtss. Anyways, religion is not fact; religion is belief. Bensaccount 19:03, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Which brings up the theme of conflation of science and religion. Bensaccount 19:13, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Religion is the belief in who Jesus was and why he died. What you speak of is not religion. Why must you keep changing the subject? Bensaccount 00:12, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Your digressive rant only serves to prove you don't know what a false dichotomy is. Bensaccount 03:11, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article, and this talk page, depresses me: people here don't seem to understand what a point of view is (see Ungtss's "fact" that the eye was created intact). Or perhaps that's the point; if you believe it's a *fact* that you can calculate the age of the Earth by counting the generations in the Bible then I don't suppose you can recognise that it's a point of view. That's the fatal flaw in having this page as a Wikipedia article. I would also point out - from the Wikipedia page on Belief - that belief is categorically not "either fact or falsehood" but rather "assent to a proposition" - watch out for both the Excluded middle and the logical fallacy that you can prove religious claims using historical evidence. nof20 05:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As editors of an encyclopedia, and hopefully an encyclopedia of quality, I hope we can all remember that above all, our commitment should be first and foremost to good writing. No one wants to read, quote from, or attribute a poorly-written article. This is especially vital in the case of articles such as this one, edited by contending sides. Edits should not appear in the article like bomb craters in a war zone; the flow of the article should remain seamless and coherent from one edit to the next. So when you insert your passionate rebuttal to someone's evolutionist or creationist nonsense, PLEASE take a moment to make sure it fits in with the surrounding text, that your point isn't duplicated by a sentence one or two lines above or below, and that you have written it in a consistent voice, so it doesn't read like a harsh choir practice. Graft 20:46, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
---
The quote from Scott (1997) was this: "The vertebrate eye was Paley's classic example, well known to educated people of the nineteenth century, of design in nature. Darwin deliberately used the example of the vertebrate eye in The Origin of Species to demonstrate how complexity and intricate design could come about through natural selection, which of course is not a chance phenomenon. In creationist literature, evolution is synonymous with chance. In scientific accounts, there are random or chance elements in the generation of genetic variation, but natural selection, acting upon this genetic variation, is the antithesis of chance. In the Progressive creationism tradition, Intelligent design allows for a fair amount of microevolution, but supporters deny that mutation and natural selection are adequate to explain the evolution of one 'kind' to another, such as chordates from echinoderms, or human beings from apes. These and the origin of life are considered too complex to be explained naturally, thus Intelligent design demands that a role be left for the intelligent designer, God" (Scott 1997, p. 280). In my opinion, the interpretation of Scott in the current page mangles what Scott explicitly said and makes an inaccurate and uncited, unsupported, and illogical rebuttal that does not even make sense. That is only my opinion. 8)) I would suggest that if you want to insert that rebuttal, that is fine. But please don't make the war crater that you did. Please paraphrase, quote, and cite some other scholar in a preceding or following section that accurately reflects what some rebuttal scholar actually wrote, please. --- Rednblu | Talk 07:33, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Here's what I think. The page currently has no clear reason to exist; unless and until it does, fussing over the contents is a waste of time. I'll propose three solutions to this problem, you may have others.
1. Define this as an article that discusses the social history of conflicts between creationism and evolution. No scientific or religious arguments, just historical accounts of points where laws were written, people jailed, institutions formed or changed in relation to this conflict. The Scopes trial and the recent business about stickers in textbooks would be the type of thing discussed in this history.
2. Make this a links page. A minimal narrative: these are the major viewpoints, these are some prominent figures, these are the contentious issues. Almost no discussion, just point to the relevant articles. I'm not sure this is really needed, but at least it would clarify the aim of the page.
3. Delete the page. See if it is missed. If there is some need for this article, deleting it might be the best way of identifying that need.
--16:24, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
excellent thinking. here's another possibility: the current page contains the material for several pages:
what do you think? Ungtss 17:15, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think the wikiquote idea is fine, though I guess that means deleting this page and starting another, right? Your first two suggestions strikes me as still being overbroad, especially given all the wrangling that attends to the most straigthforward representation of these topics--those seem more like premises for books than encyclopedia articles. My vote is to either adopt the "social history of the conflicts" idea or just delete the page. I do think the "continuum" is useful and should find a home somewhere on wikipedia. -- BTfromLA 06:05, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Bensaccount recently edited to remove the second half of this sentence: "Advocates of evolutionary creationism typically see the debate as a false dichotomy, because they believe religious belief in God as creator is compatible with the science of evolution." I have restored it. This is a good example of evolutionism, an intolerant ideology, masquerading as evolution, a scientific theory, in that it won't even allow the statement of another's belief if it conflicts with its own. Many of the edits on these pages are also examples. Just as the definition of creationism changes "on-the-run," with great confusion between the variations in creationism, so does the definition of evolution, which conflates science with ideology in many cases on these pages. I will give this much credit, that some of the advocates of evolutionism, the ideology, believe so strongly that they cannot see this point, and are not lying when they try to equate their view with science. When someone says evolution is true, then one has gone beyond science, which uses a theory as a framework, but holds all its theories with healthy skepticism until a better comes along. Whenever one says evolution disproves God, then it is waaaaayyy beyond science and he/she has expressed a religious ideology. When one tries to convince others of this, then it has become an evangelistic religious idology. And when one goes beyond pursuasion, and tries to impose this view (through forced science curricula, court cases, etc.) then it has become a coercive religious ideology. Evolutionism today is fervently trying to suppress all opposing views through any possible means. Science, like religion, should be strong enough to stand on its own feet; it does not need to be force fed to one and all. All creationists, from young earth to evolutionary, unite to reject coercive religious ideologies, especially those that masquerade as science. Pollinator 14:17, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)
Yes, evolution is compatible with creation, but no that is not why this is a false dichotomy. It is a false dichotomy because there are many other options than creation or evolution. Now could you please, explain to me why you keep replacing this statement? Bensaccount 15:56, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The lack of conflict between evolution and creation means there is no dichotomy, not that there is a false dichotomy. How long do you think you can push this lie before people start to notice? Bensaccount 22:59, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Nobody thinks that a false dichotomy results from a lack of conflict yet you write that: advocates of evolutionary creationism typically see the debate as a false dichotomy, because they believe religious belief in God as creator is compatible with the science of evolution.. This is a blatant lie. Bensaccount 23:19, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The reason this is a false dichotomy is not the compatibility of creation and evolution. Bensaccount 21:31, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is an old conversation. I have since realized that there is more than one reason why this is a false dichotomy (see below). The above statement should read: "The reason this is a false dichotomy is not only the compatibility of creation and evolution. Bensaccount 01:53, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
okay. now. how do you suggest allowing the intro to be broader than your pov -- for instance, to include people that disagree with you on every one of the above points? Ungtss 23:40, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
---
If you disagree, say so. Stop evading it. I recommend you start with point #1. Bensaccount 00:14, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How about we use terms the way that mainstream scientists use them? Here is an appropriate use of "false dichotomy." "The creationists assert a false dichotomy between micro- and macroevolution (Antolin & Herbers 2001)." Is that what you meant by "false dichotomy"? If it is, we could quickly dispense with this "problem" by inserting a section called "The false dichotomy in the debate" in which we could cite to all the published uses by mainstream scientists of the phrase "false dichotomy." 8))
That is a different issue. Bensaccount 00:14, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Still waiting, Ungtss. Bensaccount 22:38, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I am waiting for you to disagree with the above points. You allude that there are people who disagree but you don't say whom. Bensaccount 14:24, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As usual, you are vague and deceptuous. Are you saying Stephen Gould disagrees with all of the above points including the removal of lies and evasion? Please specify what he disagrees with and provide a quotation to prove it. Bensaccount 17:33, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The reason this is a false dichotomy is that these two viewpoints are presented as the only options when they are not. It is not the compatibility of creation and evolution.
The creation vs. evolution debate obviously creates a false dichotomy. If there is any disagreement from the usual liars (Ungtss, Rednblu, Rayment), now is the time and this is the section. Bensaccount 00:37, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Which means that representing it as a dichotomy is false. Bensaccount 22:36, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
aren't you getting a little crazy with this false dichotomy stuff? i mean most debates are 'false dichotomies', but that doesn't make them horribly wrong. actually, if my understanding is correct, every two sided debate is a false dichotomy unless it's A vs. (not A).. and a false dichotomy is only a problem if somewhere in the debate of A vs. B you say (not A) implies B. wouldn't you agree? Mlm42 22:47, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No it is not crazy. It is the truth and I intend to get it on the page. Bensaccount 23:09, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
---
Ok. What text on the Creation vs. evolution debate represents "the debate" as a dichotomy? Throughout the page, I see quotations of various proponents that argue a dichotomy. But the page itself definitely does not represent the debate as a dichotomy--because it represents a whole continuum of views that proponents argue in the debate. Where is the dichotomy? The page just represents what the various proponents in the debate actually say. That is what NPOV is all about. 8)) So what point-of-view do you think is not adequately represented on the current Creation vs. evolution debate page? --- Rednblu | Talk 03:44, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is correct. Neocapitalist
What is your point Graft; unlike you I don't value good prose over meaning or clarity. Bensaccount 14:05, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<Mainstream scientists counter by arguing that creationists are dead wrong in saying evolution requires innumerable unknown assumptions and causes, because, they claim, every cause and assumption for evolution has been objectively verified.>>
You are obviously complaining. Bensaccount 22:37, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<Mainstream scientists counter by arguing that creationists are dead wrong in saying evolution requires innumerable unknown assumptions and causes, because, they claim, enough causes and assumptions for evolution have been objectively verified to consider evolution nothing less than valid fact.>>
---
You have a right to complain. In the end, that sentence should be cut unless there is some actual published scholar who said that. But I suggest that it should be left for the time-being--to be replaced in the future by what some published scholar actually said. 8)) However, in my opinion, the creationist claim to which that sentence replies is even more unjustified. How about we look for a published scholar who actually 1) says that "evolution requires innumerable unknown assumptions and causes" and 2) provides some rational argument for such a conclusion? :) --- Rednblu | Talk 03:55, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)
well ... it seems that the "views compared" page is here to stay, and this page doesn't know what it is, but it's got a lot of good material. here's how i propose dividing up this megalith:
Thoughts? Ungtss 20:59, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Not having been on this page for about a week, I have now responded to some earlier points that were archived. See this revision comparison for my responses. Philip J. Rayment 02:21, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have given precise edit summaries for each of my individual edits, so if someone reverts I expect some rebuttal of my comments. Bensaccount 18:10, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Precise edit summaries"? I tend to agree with Rednblu, but here are some of your edit summaries and the rebuttal comments (as precise as your comments) that I would use if I was reverting:
The point is, you haven't given good reasons for your mass changes and deletions; rather you have provided a terse, almost meaningless, comment. You haven't, for example, explained how stuff you removed is "lies".
Philip J. Rayment 02:43, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
From that quote, I would assert that the essence of NPOV is paraphrasing, quoting, and citing to published scholars. --- Rednblu | Talk 22:32, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Only when necessary. Stop trying to wield NPOV as a weapon Rednblu. Bensaccount 22:37, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What non sequiturs? Bensaccount 23:50, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
---
<<<<#Pointless statement: One's view of the debate often depends on which side one takes in the debate.>>>>
<<This is pointless because we are trying to define the debate not everyone's view of the debate (which is not even possible). Now explain why it is necessary to include this statement Phillip.>>
Some people see the debate as a debate between science and religion. Other people see the debate as a debate between the science of one religion and the science of another religion. Yet others see the "debate" as a false dichotomy. Generally speaking, young-earth creationists and some old-earth creationists see the debate as a debate between the science of one religion and the science of another religion. Materialists see the debate as a debate between science and religion. Theistic evolutionists see the debate as a false dichotomy. Therefore, as the lines said, "One's view of the debate [i.e. how one sees the debate] often depends on which side one takes in the debate [i.e. YEC etc., materialist, or theistic evolutionist]". You can quibble over the details, but to me (and obviously most others here) that seems pretty correct, and pertinent.
Philip J. Rayment 05:49, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Speaking of non-sequiturs, saying that "theistic evolutionists see the debate as a false dichotomy" does not lead to the conclusion that "one's view of the debate often depends on which side one takes in the debate", since other "sides" also see the debate as a false dichotomy. Anyways, you digress, get to the point. How is this statement useful. Bensaccount 16:53, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Finally a reason. Unfortunately there is only heat in certain areas and among certain people, so this is incorrect. In the future, I suggest losing the hidden motives and going right out and saying what you are trying to imply. I don't like having to dig through these seemingly pointless statements to get to your insidious motives. Bensaccount 15:34, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You are trying to imply that this is a heated controversy. It is only a heated controversy in certain areas and among certain people. Therefore, you only present half the story. Bensaccount 15:28, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"The creation vs. evolution debate is the conflict among people who perceive disagreement regarding the origin of the universe, Earth, life, and humanity." Bensaccount, I don't get you. Are you trying to say that there is no disagreement about the origin of aforementioned things? Everybody agrees about the origin, but somehow, through an optical illusion or whatever, they perceive disagreement? -- Hob Gadling 16:28, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)
It would be more correct to say: is the perpetual disagreement among people who think there is conflict regarding the origin or the universe. I'll change it. Bensaccount 22:35, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I do mean conflicting notions. I will add this. Bensaccount 16:36, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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May I remind everyone that our job here is to write about "what people say," not about "what is so." I have no objection to the content of Mr. Ben's statement; I have even looked for published scholars who say anything like that so that we could cite to it and develop a clear page in good style. However, if we add a section about "conflicting notions," it will violate NPOV policy because there is not one published scholar who has characterized the controversy as "conflicting notions." Every published scholar characterizes the conflict as a battle over "what is so." Wikipedia is no place for uncited personal research. --- Rednblu | Talk 19:10, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You may not, since what is so always takes precidence over what people say. Bensaccount 21:51, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes in Wikipedia. Bensaccount 22:19, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I removed the above statement. The lead section should summarize what the scholars cited in the article say. The above statement contradicts every scholar cited in the "References" section. --- Rednblu | Talk 23:04, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No the lead section should sumarize the article. Or more directly, it should summarize the subject. Bensaccount 17:04, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I moved the above comment here for discussion. Can somebody please explain this? It would help if there were a citation to a published scholar. 8)) --- Rednblu | Talk 09:47, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_earth_creationism
refers here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_vs._evolution_debate
I was curious if anybody has any way to interpret either the magentic evidence on the sea floors, or the paleobiological evidence in eastern and southern Africa, in any way consistent with any young earth theory -- or if there are any actual young earth theories (besides, just assertions of "God said so" I mean).
Neither of these articles seems to cover any scientific theory at all.
It is apparent that I can find a lot of name-calling, but, what I was wondering was, is there any science in the anti-evolution camps? Especially, is there any geologic or paleobiological science?
Frankly, no. There is nothing scientific about creationism. However, it is popular for people to conflate the two, and eventually this page will have a section regarding the conflation of science and religion. Bensaccount 16:33, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There is plenty of science to creation, despite the denials of anti-creationists. I know that is just a bald statement, but then so are most of the claims to the contrary (unless they quote others making bald statements). FeloniousMonk's claim that it is unscientific by definition is a genetic fallacy. He is claiming that a theory is false because of the reasoning of the people proposing the theory, rather than on whether it actually is false or not. Many evolutionists believe evolution because they are atheists (or similar) who have rejected creation as even a possibility for consideration, but few anti-creationists will claim that that thereby invalidates evolution. Philip J. Rayment 23:44, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Step back from this repetitive discussion and observe the prevalent themes of conflation of science and religion, and persuasive or arbitrary definitions.
Bensaccount 15:50, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
okay, don'tgetmad. I moved the page wiktionary:controversy rather than wiktionary:debate. The former is more specific. It is used by both sides scientists (top right), creationists. Debate suggests a structured discussion where sides are equal, when this is not the case. Dunc| ☺ 11:56, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think you should have asked on this page before you made the move. I don't really think it makes much difference though, so long as one redirects to the other. Bensaccount 16:08, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
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Let us not please import into Wikipedia the slanted bias of talk.origins. That bias is just one of many. The peer-reviewed publications should be considered also. And the peer reviewed publications, such as in Evolution or Quarterly Review of Biology, use "debate" just as often as "controversy" to describe what goes on among the proponents of creation and the proponents of evolution. We need to stop two things on this page 1) unilateral massive changes and 2) personal research that does not take into consideration what scholars actually say. This undiscussed move procedurally violated both those 'no-nos.' Substantively, either title for this page would represent what scholars actually have published on the topic of this debate. --- Rednblu | Talk 22:03, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Neither do I have any real problem with the move, other than that it was done without consultation (and I'm not convinced that it was necessary—it seems to be based on the nonsense that "there is no debate"). I also agree that Talk.Origins is a valid source for citations, but disagree that they represent "scientists" as distinct from "creationists". So if they are being used to show what anti-creationists or evolutionists (or whoever) think, that is okay, but not if they are being used to show what scientists think.
And just to be cheeky, I agree with Dunc that the sides are not equal. Evolutionists have the numbers (in certain quarters at least), but creationists have the better argument. :-)
Philip J. Rayment 23:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I move that we revert the Page Move back to the name Creation vs. evolution debate for the following reasons.
I moved the archives. Bensaccount 15:08, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Eventually this article needs a subsection about the debate being a false dichotomy. Any input for this subsection?
Previously I said that the debate is a false dichotomy because it sets up two alternative points of view as if they were the only options, when they are not (ie. see Hesiod's Theogony). I now realize there are in fact two reasons why this is a false dichotomy, the second being that the two options do not oppose eachother by contradiction. Bensaccount 04:01, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
How is stating the obvious research? Bensaccount 15:51, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Are you refering to yourself? Bensaccount 16:30, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Rednblu doesn't think it is wrong, he says it may be true. So are you refering to yourself? Bensaccount 16:35, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
<<there is not one published scholar who even implies that "creation vs. evolution" is a false dichotomy.>>
Rednblu has never said I am wrong. Neither have you. You only imply that other people think I am wrong, and never produce any evidence of it. Bensaccount 16:46, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Huh? See [4] and the links it points to, and the literature given there. Eugenie Scott's "continuum" has been mentioned several times here. And if you think you know people's minds better than they themselves do, that's your private problem, and if you talk too much about it, not only those people won't take you very seriously. -- Hob Gadling 19:33, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
I also point to Eugenie Scott as a published scholar to points out that EvC sets up a false dichotomy http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/528_science_religion_and_evoluti_6_19_2001.asp Also, even our own false dilemma article uses EvC as an example. -- JPotter 19:42, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
A continuum of approaches to creation and evolution The creation vs evolution debate presents a dichotomy in which one must choose between either "creation" or "evolution". However there is in fact a continuum of approaches to creation and evolution. Following are some points-of-view along this continuum: -- JPotter 21:48, Jan 31, 2005 (UTC)
I think you digress. There is only one major false dichotomy here. The title itself should make that clear enough. Two views are set up as if they were the only options when they are not. Can anyone guess what the two views are? Bensaccount 15:22, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the title says there's a controversy between two options, and there is. In reality however, there are many options. Hence the subject is a false dichotomy. Bensaccount 00:26, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I removed the above statement. The lead section should summarize what the scholars cited in the article say. The above statement contradicts every scholar cited in the "References" section. --- Rednblu | Talk 23:04, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I did not realize that Darwin said that the creation vs. evolution debate is not a false dichotomy (in his book, the origin of the species, no less). Would it be too much trouble to for you to obtain the quotation on that? Bensaccount 17:51, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Oh and don't forget to inform the reader that Edgar Allan Poe found first hand proof that the words "evolution" or "creation" are not used arbitrarily or persuasively in this debate. ( Talk:Creation-evolution_controversy/archive_5#Arbitrary_or_persuasive_definitions). Bensaccount 17:57, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That was not "illogic", that was sarcasm. And it is absurd to cite the obvious. Bensaccount 18:12, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I didn't want to get into epistemology, but you redefine obviousness, so you leave me no choice. Obviousness does not depend on citation. You don't need to cite something for it to be obvious; that is the opposite of obviousness. You need to cite something when it is not obvious, because it is not easy to see or understand. 15:15, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Darwin never even vaguely implied that the creation vs. evolution debate is not a false dichotomy. What the hell are you talking about? Bensaccount 17:51, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I cut the above statement from the first sentence because it is logially inaccurate. The "controversy" is a religious and political argument among many different viewpoints: some say 1) creation and evolution are conflicting notions, some say 2) creation and evolution are compatible notions, some say 3) creation is religion and evolution is science, some say 4) 8))) creation vs. evolution is a false dichotomy, some say 5) creation and evolution are both just different speculations, . . . (Scott 1997). --- Rednblu | Talk 04:55, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The article states "Methodological materialism is the acceptance of the operating procedures and logical standards of the modern scientific method, rather than supernatural causes." This <Methodological materialism> is linked but goes nowhere. The definition frankly sounds like science, which does have an article. Is this serious, or some propaganda stuff?
Instead to engaging in the debate that gave rise to this section I've been searching published journals to fact check. There are a couple of problems with this section:
For the record my personal views lean toward the "continuum" viewpoint.-- FeloniousMonk 04:19, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is no reason to have an entire section dedicated to one persons incomplete viewpoint (cited or not). There are, however, obviously other viewpoints than the dichotomy this debate creates. Therefore, this section should list the various viewpoints on origin, and not just list Scott's viewpoints on origin. Bensaccount 17:19, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
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Materialist evolutionism, Cultural materialism, and Evolutionist materialism were terms that Marvin Harris and other scholars used before 1970 to describe the rigorous theories in anthropology that looked only at data rather than consulting divine inspiration. 8))) The standard graduate student text is Marvin Harris's The Rise of Anthropological Theory or RAT as it is lovingly called. If I get time, I will put together a page on materialist evolutionism citing to RAT which was probably Dr. Scott's text. 8))) --- Rednblu | Talk 00:18, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The Gallup Poll is still heavily biased.
If you add up the figures you get "0% stated that they believed that there was no God", clearly evidencing that the poll's figures only correspond to the already-religious group of people. Compared to a more mixed population, the figures become much more clearly a tiny minority of pro-creationists.
There is, after all, no county, state, or nation, with a majority of voters supporting the abolition of the teaching of evolution in favour of creationism. An important point showing the opinion of the populous, which is often overlooked.
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8)) Not a good argument--in my opinion. I would not mind if you say that I am religious, but it does not make sense to say that I am religious. You could as well say that I am a Martian. I would not object, but it does not make sense. 8)) As for your criticism of Mr. Dreams's comment, I agree. Mr. Dreams's comment does not make sense. I am signing off before I say something that does not make sense. 8)) --- Rednblu | Talk 19:14, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Yet again, someone (Bensaccount in this case) has put an "Totally Disputed" tag on without adequate explanation of what's wrong. All he said (in the edit comment) was "Unfortunately we need this tag again. There are certain short descriptions of the participants and the external links that are POV and incorrect. Not to mention the section dedicated to Eugenie Scott.
Because that has been discussion about Scott, I will not remove the tag. But the other reasons for putting the tag have not been explained sufficiently for someone to identify them and do something about it. Bensaccount, here is your opportunity to explain those other reasons (which you should have done at the time of including the tag). Others might actually disagree with you on Scott, and if so that would leave no legitimate reason for the tag remaining.
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While I'm discussing that section, I want to mention a bit of POV editing that occurred recently. First, I wrote most of the "Participants" section, and I included the following two sentences:
I got both figures from their respective web-sites. Although I am a creationist, I saw no reason to dispute the latter figure, even though it was a larger number than claimed by CRS.
However, Old-copy-editor saw fit to change the first of these only to read (emphasis added):
Apparently a claim by a creationist group must be suspect and therefore qualified, but a similar claim by an evolutionist group is to be accepted!
I am reverting the change as I don't think he has any reason to question the CRS figure. If someone disagrees with me, at least have the courtesy to be consistent and change both sentences, please.
Philip J. Rayment 15:22, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"The consensus in the scientific community is firmly against creationism". This is "evolutionist" bias; the scientific community is not firmly against creationism. Bensaccount 21:39, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
"the debate is maintained by a handful of religiously motivated creationist scientists and non-scientists who utilize the mass media arenas of the internet, publishing of books and periodicals, lecture tours, staged debates, and conventions to get across their message."
This is an incomplete picture of what causes this debate. The debate is also maintained by "evolutionists", such as Julian Huxley, who think that evolution leaves no room for God or creation. Generally the people who partake in the debate on either side are people who:
Therefore, point #1 above is central to any definition or description of the debate. Hence the section on non-standard definitions. Bensaccount 21:59, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)