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I'm thinking we should switch it to having the plural be the main article, and the singular being the redirect. -- Jpbrenna 19:14, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
These aren't exhaustive, but I'm listing them here as things that need to be attended to; other editors should feel free to add their own entries (though please don't remove anything unless the work has been done, or a reason has been given):
This is all just off the top of my head, and my own relevant books are all in boxes in the garage waiting for it to be converted into a library (kochinin Befti — and that gives a clue as to where I learnt my Greek). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I moved this page back to Rebetico, as there was a complaint about the move to Rebetika, on the grounds that there was no consensus to move it. I also checked Google: there are 43,400 entries for rebetika, and 74,200 for rebetiko — not that this is a sufficient reason, but I took it into account. It also seemed odd to use the plural as the title, though there may have been a good reason. The editor who wants to move it should try to get the agreement of the other editors on the page first. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 04:33, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
-- Jpbrenna 04:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I must say that I've never heard anyone refer to it as "rebetiko"; the term is generally used in the plural, and the Wikipedia policy is to use the name that's in general use. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 13:21, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm not exactly expert in Greek, but I use the word Rebetiko to mean the style or musical genre. Rebetika is what I say when I am refering to the body of work as a whole. But that's just me, and I am fairly often wildly wrong about things. I would say leave it as it is and concentrate on the other things that need to be done. Which I mean to get on with as soon as I have time. The Real Walrus 09:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It's refered to as "To Rempetiko tragoudi" - Ρεμπετικο τραγουδι or simply the "rempetiko" - Το ρεμπετικο as well as "ta rempetika tragoudia" (rempetika songs) or simply "rempetika". Both are correct and widely used.
Popular music
Rembétika was Greece's first popular music, arising in the urban areas of Greece. Its popularity has waxed and waned, as has its relationship with the government. Newer forms of popular music include laïkó and éntekhno. [edit]
Rembétika
Rembétika evolved from traditions of the urban poor. Refugees and drug-users, criminals and the itinerant, the earliest rembétika musicians were scorned by mainstream society. They sang heartrending tales of drug abuse, prison and violence, usually accompanied by the boxoúki, a sort of lute derived from the Byzantine tambourás and related to the Turkish saz. [edit]
Turkish origins
By the beginning of the 20th century, music-cafés were popular in Istanbul and Smyrna, primarily owned by Greeks, alongside Jews and Armenians. The bands were led by a female vocalist, typically, and included a violin and a sandoúri. The improvised songs typically exclaimed aman aman, which led to the name amanédhes or café-aman. Musicians of this period included Marika Papagika, Agapios Tomboulis, Rosa Eskenazi and Rita Abatzi.
In 1923, many ethnic Greeks from Asia Minor fled to Greece as a result of the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922). They settled in poor neighborhoods in Pireás, Thessaloníki and Athens. Many of these immigrants were highly educated, and included songwriter Vangelis Papazoglou and Panayiotis Toundas, composer and leader of Odeon Records' Greek subsidiary.
One Turkish tradition that came with the Greek migrants was the tekés, or hashish dens. Groups of men would sit in a circle and smoke hashish from a hookah, and improvised music of various kinds was common. Out of this music scene came two of the earliest legends of modern Greek history, Artemis and Markos Vamvakaris. They played in a quartet with Batis and Stratos Payioumtzis. Vamvakaris became perhaps the first star of Greek music after beginning a solo career.
Jp, you can't change the name of the article in the text to Rebetika, while leaving the title as Rebetiko. I've protected this page until you and the other editors have decided on a title. Also, can you tell, when you moved the page, did you do it by cutting and pasting, because we seem to have lost the edit history? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:38, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
Verbatim - except IM name withheld to protect her privacy. She is a ntive Greek-speaker, fluent in English, with a degree from Oxford (which you might think would have given her more polish, but that's for a different discussion)
-- Jpbrenna 18:45, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I've been holding off from editing until there's some consensus on my suggestions and the article title. As there seem to be two voices here arguing for a change, and none arguing against (I've twice contacted the person who complained, asking him to argue his case here, but he seems not to want to), I'll make the move myself over the weekend. I'll allow another day or so to give people a chance to oppose.
Then, if there's no objection to my suggestions above, I'll get started on some of them. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
-- Jpbrenna 17:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Rebetika is the name for a type of music that originated at the margins of the Greek-speaking world, later widely influencing the emergence of laika.
The music itself emerged largely in the urban centers of Greece - in Athens & Peiraeus, in Thessaloniki and on Siros.
The Greek article provides an excellent base to work from. I am currently translating it. Below is material (some of it added by me before I discovered the Greek article) that didn't fit into the more chronological structure of the Greek version. When the translation is done, we can mine this for material to include in the appropriate sections. -- Jpbrenna 21:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Rebetika are the songs of the Greek underworld, sung by the so-called rebetes (Greek: ρεμπέτης). Rebetes were the unconventional people who lived outside the social order. They first appeared after the Greek war of Independence of 1821. They rejected many traditional mores regarding marriage, courtship, dress, speech, and the work ethic. They often went so far as to reject the use of umbrellas and hand-holding with girlfriends. Many smoked hashish and considered a prison record a badge of honor. Despite this often anti-social exterior, many rebetes displayed a social conscience and helped the poor and weak. They spoke a rich slang derived from a variety of sources, accompanied with the ebullient gestures common to the Mediterranean.
Many rebetika songs originated in prison or in
hookah houses. There, the rebetes would sing with a slow, hoarse voice – usually the result of heavy tobacco or or hashish use, but sometimes purposely affected – one after the other. Every singer added a
distich that often had no connection to the previous verse. There was no
refrain. The singing was often accompanied by a
bouzouki or
baglamas.
By 1955 when Greece began to produce long play records in large numbers, the original rebetika had vanished. The production of the rebetika songs is done without the spirit or the complicity of the underworld. Lyrics include refrains and are not necessarily hashish-inspired. Still, many songs still included an echo of earlier themes: Vassilis Tsitsanis's To Vapori Ap' Tin Persia begins:
When someone wants to add a section, they can, but a host of section headings with no text just looks messy and ugly (a stub has to have some content). The "list of songs" is surely absurd; it would run into the thousands, at least. If someone wants to make a separate list, they're welcome — but it would be a quixotic enterprise. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 7 July 2005 11:48 (UTC)
I merged the zeibekiko and hasapiko stubs into this article. It seemed a logical spot; neither form seemed to have enough substance to be its own article. Hope this helps - Her Pegship 20:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I've left a message at your Talk page. Neither dance is unique to rembetika, and if they are to be merged into a larger article (which does seem a reasonable move), I think that it should be something more general, such as Greek traditional dance, or Traditional Greek dance, or Traditional dances of Greece, or something like that. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Is on hold. My friend has expressed reservations about some of the things asserted in the Greek article. She also feels that the list of performer bios will only be filled in by some "absolute fanatic of obscure rebetika figures." Little does she realize that is exactly the sort of person we rely on to get things done on Wikipedia ;) -- Jpbrenna 8 July 2005 20:16 (UTC)
The article currently claims that all rembetika dances were either zeimbekiko or hasapiko; surely this is wrong? Of course those were by far the most common, but I've certainly heard tsifteteli and karsilama (and sometimes hasaposerviko). Of course, modern tourist versions are full of syrtakis, but we can ignore them... -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
True, as well as "sousta"
The introduction says that the first rebetes appeared after the revolution of 1821.I'm not sure but i think that they first appeared between the refugees of the Asia minor disaster in 1922.... that's when the songs themselves first appeared in any case, so i think it makes more sense... Padem 08:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no mention of Rebetiko in the list of musical genres, but I can not see how to add it. <anon>
Loukas Daralas is mentioned here as a signficant person in this area. If somebody is familiar with him, you wish to add something to the article, and the AFD discussion. -- Rob 11:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Can someone provide me with a source before I remove the following claim:
"They first appeared after the Greek War of Independence of 1821."
Miskin 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
"Many early rebetic songs were about drugs, especially Hashish which led Rebetiko to be criminalized." I think you are mistaken, but have no references to back myself up. Rebetiko was criminalized by the fascist Metaxas because he wanted Greek music to be like Western Classical music, but Rebetiko was and still is based on scales (dromoi) derived from Ottoman Makams and other middle eastern music. Hashish was probably made illegal for different reasons, such as America exporting its war on Drugs. The Real Walrus 14:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm marking with bold my suggestions herebelow for the opening paragraph. The current definition is not accurate and not well written either, in my opinion. (The case for rebetika appearing "after 1821" for instance is baseless.)
{ Rebetika were the songs of the Greek urban underground, written or sung by the so-called rebetes (Greek: ρεμπέτης rebetis, plural: ρεμπέτες rebetes). Rebetes were unconventional people who lived mostly at the margins of society or even outside it, as outlaws. The main pioneers of rebetika have been the immigrants from the Greek diaspora of Asia Minor.
The songs, often compared to genres like American blues, are full of grief, passion, romance, and bitterness. They are generally slow, melancholic songs about the misfortunes and the affairs of the heart of simple ordinary men. Many early rebetika songs were about drug use, especially hashish, which led Rebetiko to be criminalized during the dictatorship of Ioannis Metaxas in 1936. Not until 1947, when Manos Hadjidakis, through a series of lectures and articles, introduced rebetika to a wider audience were these songs accepted as a legitimate music style. Damianakos Stathis noted that the rebetika songs of the first period were mostly the singing expression of the lumpenproletariat. A lot of rebetika songs are for dancing, zeibekiko and hasapiko being very common, but they also include tsifteteli, karsilamas and other dance styles. } - The Gnome 19:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Is the claim that Metaxas banned it due to some influences from Anatolía really substantial? The claim somebody made that it was because he wanted to make Greek music more "in line" with Western classical traditions is quite strange, since Rebetiko has some similarities to Romantic classical music played on guitar. For example if you compare this by Markos Vamvakaris, to this by Fernando Sor they're not completely alien. Many of the folk musics of Europe have a little bit of cross over with classical music on guitar, including Flamenco, Canzone Napoletana, etc. The idea that it was banned due to the assosiation with drugs seems more realistic to me. - Gennarous ( talk) 07:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, he didn't ban all recordings. (btw it doesn't say so in the article). He began the censorship on discography in general, for sure. Many of the artist of the time (Tsitsanis, Papaioannou) claim that the censorship commitment didn't mind only the lyrics but also musical characteristics that where not western-like, at least for their ears. Don't forget Metaxas's regime was a fascist one, and he wanted Greek purity and no association with the Turkish culture. Yangula ( talk) 09:32, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Would it be within Wikipedia policy to include a basic discography of rebetika music? The problem of course is that many Greek records quickly go out of print or are available only in Greece, but there are still a number of good records that are commonly available in the U.S. -- for instance, collections by Rough Guides and on Rounder Records. Maybe the criterion should be to list things that are available on CD via major U.S. based internet vendors. I think it should include only original recordings, not ones by later interpretors. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 22:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Form and spelling are varied, but current Google results are:
So it looks like the leader is rebetiko, though those results may be influence by the very fact that that is the name already chosen for the Wikipedia article. However, the main Library of Congress Authorities subject heading form is Rebetika, which I think is a very important authority. Also, a search for rebetika on Amazon apparently is mapped to all forms of the word, and though I haven't counted, looking over the results seems to indicate that rebetika is the most common English language or transliterated form in currently available books and recordings. Overall, for these reasons, I'd personally prefer rebetika, but I don't think I can make a strong enough case to justify changing it at this point. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 23:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I've put some of the historical background of rebetiko into the article, but it still needs work and references, both to sources and to other Wikipedia entries. I'll try to do more on it later, but anyone else who has the knowledge is invited to add to or revise it. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 14:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Does this page really need both a list of performers and a Famous Performers box? I'd prefer just the latter; it would look more attractive on the page than that long list. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 17:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the essay-like article tag is justified here. Looking at the linked style guide I don't see that the article is seriously out of line with it. But I won't remove it until others have a chance to give their opinions. The primary sources tage, on the other hand is justified, but I think that virtually everything stated in the article could be supported by citations of the works referred to in the Further Reading and Discography sections (some of the CDs noted include liner notes or even booklets which are knowledgable enough to be considered scholarly.) Someone just needs to take the time to put in the citations. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 00:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Since no one has commented, I've removed the essay-like article tag. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 02:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
According to the etymology of the Greek word acknowledged by most scholars - rembos, rembazo, spelled with mu-beta - the only correct English spelling is REMBETIKO (sc. tragoudi, song). I'm afraid a Google search is not a reliable proof for anything, and the Library of Congress serves practical goals and has nothing to do with orthography: the system used there is based on Ancient Greek spelling and is never used for transliteration of Modern Greek words into English. Although a form with -b- is by now also common, it is much more preferable to write the words "rembetiko", "rembetika" (pl.), "rembetes" with -mb-. -- Vladimir Boskovic ( talk) 15:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Since this issue has been brought up above, here are some hints about it. The word ρεμπέτες is of course Modern Greek. The obsolete hypotheses that attempt to link the words bouzouki, zeibekiko, and rebetes with Αncient Greek roots are nowadays considered totally fringe by contemporary lexicographers. Triantafyllidis foundation (a very respectable source) proposes that rebetes may have a Slavic origin (confer rebyonok, rebyata). But since this is not certain, there are many alternative hypotheses (with varying degrees of credibility). Here is an informal collection of them. -- Omnipaedista ( talk) 19:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I am no pro in these things, but isn't it kinda obvious that "ρεμπέτης" derives from "ρεμβεύτης" losing its "υ" - which is a quite common phenomenon in modern greek. "β" has been spoken as "b" instead of "v" in older times and this is still the case in some dialects. That would explain the shift of "β" to "π", which would have been necessary to retain the original pronunciation of "b". "ρεμβεύτης", by the way, would mean "roamer" from "ρεμβεύω" = "to roam".
"On the other hand, other rebetiko songs, even ones describing criminal activity, became quite popular among the general population. One example is the song, "Varka sto Yialo," meaning "Boat on the Beach," which has a catchy chorus and is still popular and has gained general acceptance. While it is common to hear this song on the radio and in nightclubs, this song actually describes the shipment of drugs, via a boat, at night, from the Middle East."
Is that so? As far as I know this popular song is by Mikis Theodorakis, composed in the 60s, not a rebetiko proper song. And the lyrics talk about a romantic encounter and subsequent immigration. I have not found any other song by that title with the content described here. So unless someone provides details or references, I am inclined to delete this part. Schizophonix ( talk) 13:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Maybe whoever wrote the paragraph quoted was actually thinking of "The Boat from Persia" ...? Strawberryjampot ( talk) 17:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I've changed back the description of Elias Petropoulos from "one early scholar of rebetica" to "the leading scholar" since 1) he wasn't particularly early, and 2) surely he is the leading scholar. If anyone objects, please discuss here. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 02:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I've added back the discography (couldn't revert) for two reasons. First, I don't think on principle such a major change should be made without discussion. Second, please note that the discography was added after a call for discussion of it on this talk page, and the discography was added only after a period for discussion of it had passed with no one objecting to it. This I think is additional reason why the discography should not be simply unilaterally deleted without discussion. Whether it should be included is a legitimate question, but under the circumstances I think it's reasonable to ask that editors who want to delete it to seek consensus via discussion for their action first. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 02:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
The picture should show a trichordo, not a tetrachordo. And preferably a better bouzouki. The Real Walrus ( talk) 14:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Having returned to this page after not looking at it for some time, I wanted to offer some topics for discussion of its current state.
Overall the article is now good and useful, I think, but there are several areas still needing work.
I was the editor who put the Needs Sources tag on the article, and it seems more justified than ever. There are no sources cited for the sections Taxim or Rhythms of Rebetiko, the whole long section The Postwar Period has only two footnotes, towards the beginning, and many of the other sections seem rather meagerly documented. No doubt documenting sources is tedious, but it has to be done well for an article to be taken seriously. I've documented things myself to the extent I have the knowledge and the sources available to me, but I can't do any more.
I myself don't think the red links are a problem, since I think it's useful to have a full list of performers, even if many of them aren't (yet) in Wikipedia.
The discography is still under discussion, so I suggest leaving it in until something like a consensus emerges. This issue can of course be further discussed. Meanwhile, I'd suggest that if anyone wants to add to the discography, they keep in mind the introductory paragraph describing what sort of materials it includes (and if you don't agree with it, please discuss it here.)
I still feel the same about the name as I stated in the "The Name Again" section, above: it would be best to base the name on actual English usage, which would argue for Rebetika. But I also still feel it might not be worth the trouble to change it.
One of the greatest lacks in this page is of pictures. What pictures ought to be included seems to me pretty much a no-brainer. There are three rebetika photos famous above all others, which are familiar to every serious fan: (1) The Smyrna Trio of Rosa Eskanazi, Semsis, and Tomboul, 2) the large group photo of rebetes in Piraeus in 1937, including Iovan Saouz and Mathesis, and 3) the quartet of Stratos, Markos, Batis, and Artemis. (Personally I'd also like to see the picture of Crazy Nick, Marinos the Moustache, and their dog, though this is more rare and maybe belongs more in the mangas article.) Those three pictures are ubiquitous on the internet and are old enough so that they may be out of copyright, but I'm not very knowledgeable about permissions issues and don't know what needs to be done to get them into Commons so we can use them. If anyone has the knowledge to do this, it would be great.
Personally, I think it would also be appropriate to include photos of a few of the very most major rebetica figures, even if there are already photos of them in individual articles.
I hope the above points will create some useful discussion. Thanks to everyone for reading this, and thanks in advance for your thoughts. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 17:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the page again, I'm starting to change my mind about the red links in the list of performers: there are so many of them, makes the list cumbersome, and it seems questionable whether all those isolated names will be useful to Wikipedia users. If there's a movement to delete them, I wouldn't object. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 22:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Dear all,
please discuss the following. In a recent edit Billarasgr stated in the edit summary “I changed the dates to of rebetiko development because they were wrong. After 1960 rebetiko does not exist in its the "pure" form.” I reverted the edit, essentially because it was unreferenced and left a note on his talk page:
Hi Billasgr! I reverted your last edit, since it was not referenced. While I agrre with you that “After 1960 rebetiko does not exist in its the "pure" form” you shouldn't change something which is referenced. Be bold, but don't forget WP:REF. ;-)
He answered on my talk page:
Dear Alfie,
the reference that states that rebetiko developed in 60 etc has to be removed altogether. This is a book that is not from a native i.e. Greek author. To put it in simple terms that guy just doesn't know what he is talking about. I am Greek and rebetiko player for more than 20 years and I can tell you that rebbetiko does not exist after 50s. Then you may call it "arhontorebetiko" that mostly reflects music listened by middle classes. I would be happy to discuss with you in more detail if you wish.
For now take care and please revert my correction ;)
Cheers, billarasgr
OK, the article quotes “that guy” ten times. Being not a native Greek doesn't disqualify anybody. Gail Holst is Australian, Risto Pennanen Finnish, etc. Though I agree with you personally, WP can't deal with personal opinions (see WP:NOR). If you can come up with a reference, fine. Alfie ↑↓ © 14:33, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
"Like several other urban subcultural musical forms such as the blues, flamenco, fado, and tango, rebetiko grew out of particular urban circumstances"
this is not at all correct. in fact whoever wrote it has no idea what they are saying. these different kinds of music cannot be all jumbled together. much less be called "subcultural"
nobody from montevideo or buenos aires considers tango to be a "subcultural musical form"
nobody in lisbon considers fado to be "subcultural"
nobody in southern spain considers flamenco "subcultural"
nobody in the south of the u.s. would call blues 'subcultural'
for example : you can walk around a town in andalusia and people will be randomly singing flamenco. and they dont have to be a gypsy. or be a part of any 'subculture'
you can easily hear fado all over lisbon- anytime of year
you can see people dancing the tango at the port market in montevideo. any given weekend. or being played in a cafe.
i dont think the word subcultural is properly understood by the author.
i dont think the author properly understand the word 'culture' either. or music. the analysis should be kept to rebetiko, the question of its role in greek society, and its origins, the job is difficult enough without muddling the waters trying to make incorrect corellations to other musical genres.
the article, in greek, makes no such absurd claims about fado or tango,or flamenco being a "subculture" much less labeling the most typical music of a country subcultural.
way to go and annoy millions of people all at once by denigrating their national musical style to 'subculture' status.
we are not talking about hardcore or deathmetal here. these are musical styles that define culture itself. the cultures of entire countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 06:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
no one in the country where these musics come from would label it subcultural. if for greeks rembetika is subcultural, great. but that is very different from a spaniards opinion of flamenco, or an americans of blues. much less a lisboetas idea of fado or an uruguayans fondness of tango. your subcultural label does not apply to that music. no i am not greek but my wife is her grandfather had one of the first greek radios in south america. i am a musician and have been to all the countries whose music is brought up here as an example of "subcultural musical forms" the bad things greeks say about rembetika you will never hear in portugal about fado, or in andalusia about flamenco. much less the river plate about tango, or say- chicago or texas about the blues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 07:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
-- ~~~~
sign your posts
. THX.
Alfie
↑↓
© 11:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)i really don't know but Alfie66 will give you contradictory arguements to explain it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 09:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC) so dont even bring up the 'origins' because the euro/ethnic centricity of this article stinks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
the subject of this article is rebetiko: not what was it, but what is it.
not what was music, but what is music.
for that very reason i cannot understand why an article on greek music would assert that popular uruguayan music, or popular portuguese music is subcultural.
and on top the article also claims that popular musics of argentina, spain and the u.s.also are subcultural.
insane.
you know there is one thing in common to all these musical types: they are NOT "subcultural musical forms"
i would love to have one of you guys show up in for example: lisbon, walk up to a random person and tell him that his national music, fado, is subcultural. maybe then you would understand what you're doing. try it. go ahead. get back to me after your bones heal.
i think the assertion in the article that certain musics are subcultural is elitist and rascist.
in todays europe not to mention the world as a whole, that sort of fascist/reactionary tendencies are very dangerous, not to mention illegal.
what would for example, the portuguese ministry of culture say about the assertion that fado is subcultural? should we have a formal complaint in the euro parliament? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 07:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
i am voicing support for greece, portugal, spain, uruguay and argentina as well as the united states by continuing to assert that labeling any music made by any people as "subcultural" is dangerous, fascist, and reactionary.
but lets step away, for a bit, lets get to what i think is wrong with the reference to "subcultural musical forms"
ask yourself: if a country associates itself almost completely with a certain music, is there any way that music can be considered subcultural?
logic would say no. do you understand logic? it goes much farther than opinion.
if a country considers a certain music to be their defining music, then it cannot be subcultural.
you know what that makes it? popular. (as in people man, of the people)
you guys keep on insiting on calling all these different popular musics subcultural. its insulting.
ignorance insults truth.
rembetiko is or isn't popular in greece? stick to that point.
and don't trash other cultures while you are at it.
only some armchair scholar shmuck paid to write for wikipedia would try to argue something like: look portugal: your national music, fado, its subcultural.
it doesnt matter that your whole country considers it their soul food, forget it. its subcultural.
because i say so. in an aritcle on wikipedia about greek music!
and you do this to greece, spain, uruguay, argentina and the u.s. as well.
you have the face to tell tens of millions of people that their POPULAR NATIONAL musics are subcultural?
what you argue is just nonesense.
a music cannot be considered subcultural if a whole country associates itself with it!
what is not clear about that?
again: labeling fado, flamenco, tango, blues & rebetiko as subcultural is fascist, reactionary and rascist.
i just googled: "subcultural musical forms" because it just smells so much of fresh defecation....and fresh production this article is the fifth hit!! 5th on the list on the first page, of almost 100,000 results in fact on the first page, 3 hits reference rembetiko
is this what you guys are after? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 07:41, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
its embarrasing, and shameful.
your grandmother would not be proud
again: labeling fado, flamenco, tango, blues & rebetiko as subcultural is fascist, reactionary and rascist.
in english, its wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 05:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Debates on ethnic musical styles around the world
During the last few decades, there has been a shift from the ethnocentric and essentialist perspectives of popular music to more comparative and critical approaches focusing on the dynamic, fluid, complex, and intercultural character of the evolution of ethnic musical styles. Rebetika development and the discourse of popular music within Greek intelligentsia can be seen as a regional example of the sort of processes associated with nationalization, modernization, and urbanization that occurred in many countries from the early-twentieth century to the decades immediately following World War II. During this period, the Balkans and other non-western European countries were coming into existence as political entities or were attempting to extend their borders, strengthening their social cohesiveness. Cultural elites and intellectuals covering the whole spectrum of political tendencies tried to approach the newly constructed musical styles and to define what kind of popular music could be viewed as proper national music.
Since there are some parallels between the origins, evolution, and manipulation of many ethnic musical styles (rebetika, fado, tango, and flamenco) and the discourses that support them, a brief comparative exploration can help us link our topic to broader ideological and aesthetic issues. It should be acknowledged, however, that these similarities, as Holst-Warhaft points out, “should not blind us to the particular circumstances” under which each genre developed and transformed, not to mention the task of reexamining the social and cultural context of these styles in a more focused way, demystifying prevalent stereotypes and prejudices.
The case of Argentinean tango supplies an example of a parallel debate concerning popular music. In its early stages, tango was scorned by the Eurocentric native aristocracy because of its ethnic “impurity” and its associations with slums and brothels. During the period between the two World Wars, tango spread and became popular throughout Argentina and then Europe. The Parisian bourgeoisie cleansed tango, offering a new, acceptable, and exotic version of a stylized tango while the Argentine aristocracy re-invented the genre as its own private genre. Argentineans treated tango as the quintessential expression of their own national character, tracing in its evolution the history of their identity.
The ways in which local elites manipulate ethnic musical styles are evident in the case of Trinidadian steelband, which was transformed from a grassroots carnival street music of the urban poor into the national voice of Trinidad and Tobago. This transformation has been analyzed as a cultural process that involved negotiations between different ethnic groups and intellectual circles about the definition and use of popular music—negotiations that hinged on the interests and aspirations of the interlocutors.
Similar contextual changes were found in Spanish flamenco and Portugal fado. According to Da Costa Holton’s analysis, these musical styles emerged as the “cultural expression of marginalized communities, which were then popularized by mainstream.” Today they are performed mainly for domestic and foreign tourists. Like rebetika fado was born in a social milieu marked by marginalization and has a long history of intense change and transformation. Fado became the subject of a strong debate concerning national identity and political affiliation. Many intellectuals connected fado with a mythical past, reflecting the eternal national soul, while others linked it to a cathartic expression of Portuguese working-class longings. Over the last several decades, new theories have challenged previously regnant impressionistic or ethnocentric notions by shifting the focus to transcultural, dynamic, and fluid aspects of the genre.
Flamenco was performed first in intimate Andalusian settings, among the marginal social groups and soon embraced by young Spanish playboys and philanthropist aristocrats, the so called senioritos. They frequented the dives and became admirers of the music of Andalusian proletariat. As Mitchell points out, flamenco challenged the theories of the racial mystification of flamenco as a genre with ancient, obscure, and oriental roots. Thus, the discourse of flamenco had to refine and neutralize the role of marginal groups in the evolution of the genre, in order to promote it as an exotic and passionate “pure” Spanish song. Flamenco was conscripted to serve political aspirations of both the cultural policy makers of Franco’s fascist regime and of those who opposed them—and, like rebetika, the genre became the subject of various transformations and periodic revivals that attempted to restore flamenco puro.— Yiannis Zaimakis, ‘Forbidden Fruits’ and the Communist Paradise: Marxist Thinking on Greekness and Class in Rebetika, Music & Politics 4 (1): 1–25. (Winter 2010)
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help)While users contribute positively, constructing the Greek articles ( user:Woohookitty for WPCleaner (v1.09)) , Future Perfect at Sunrise change - commute them unconstructivly. - http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Rebetiko&action=history - http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hellenic_languages&action=history ---- be more cautious for better edits... - -- SymposiumP ( talk) 12:24, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that the first source Vintage Recordings from a Greek Underworld. ARKO CD008, CD & book isn't qhite reliable for the credibility of rebetiko. -- CanarianIsland ( talk) 00:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC) Alterations 'made sense, your alterations made NO sence and dromoi are evoked before in the article as taximi after the Arabic word usually transliterated as taqsim, and written in Greek ταξίμ, has nothing to do with Turkey. Here is Makam. Otherwise It will be corrected next days asap. -- CanarianIsland ( talk) 21:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
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Considering that Islam pretty much destroys the music of all the cultures it conquers, it is MUCH more likely that this music originated with non Muslim Greeks, Armenians, Gypsies and others who lived under Ottoman rule and were not barred by their religion from having either singing, dancing, drinking and otherwise having fun.
As an example of how strict Muslims can be (but not always are) an Iranian who was playing music in Saudi had his hands smashed by the Saudi religious police. Sucks to have been him! 71.174.131.160 ( talk) 10:37, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
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I'm thinking we should switch it to having the plural be the main article, and the singular being the redirect. -- Jpbrenna 19:14, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
These aren't exhaustive, but I'm listing them here as things that need to be attended to; other editors should feel free to add their own entries (though please don't remove anything unless the work has been done, or a reason has been given):
This is all just off the top of my head, and my own relevant books are all in boxes in the garage waiting for it to be converted into a library (kochinin Befti — and that gives a clue as to where I learnt my Greek). Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I moved this page back to Rebetico, as there was a complaint about the move to Rebetika, on the grounds that there was no consensus to move it. I also checked Google: there are 43,400 entries for rebetika, and 74,200 for rebetiko — not that this is a sufficient reason, but I took it into account. It also seemed odd to use the plural as the title, though there may have been a good reason. The editor who wants to move it should try to get the agreement of the other editors on the page first. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 04:33, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
-- Jpbrenna 04:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I must say that I've never heard anyone refer to it as "rebetiko"; the term is generally used in the plural, and the Wikipedia policy is to use the name that's in general use. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 13:21, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm not exactly expert in Greek, but I use the word Rebetiko to mean the style or musical genre. Rebetika is what I say when I am refering to the body of work as a whole. But that's just me, and I am fairly often wildly wrong about things. I would say leave it as it is and concentrate on the other things that need to be done. Which I mean to get on with as soon as I have time. The Real Walrus 09:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
It's refered to as "To Rempetiko tragoudi" - Ρεμπετικο τραγουδι or simply the "rempetiko" - Το ρεμπετικο as well as "ta rempetika tragoudia" (rempetika songs) or simply "rempetika". Both are correct and widely used.
Popular music
Rembétika was Greece's first popular music, arising in the urban areas of Greece. Its popularity has waxed and waned, as has its relationship with the government. Newer forms of popular music include laïkó and éntekhno. [edit]
Rembétika
Rembétika evolved from traditions of the urban poor. Refugees and drug-users, criminals and the itinerant, the earliest rembétika musicians were scorned by mainstream society. They sang heartrending tales of drug abuse, prison and violence, usually accompanied by the boxoúki, a sort of lute derived from the Byzantine tambourás and related to the Turkish saz. [edit]
Turkish origins
By the beginning of the 20th century, music-cafés were popular in Istanbul and Smyrna, primarily owned by Greeks, alongside Jews and Armenians. The bands were led by a female vocalist, typically, and included a violin and a sandoúri. The improvised songs typically exclaimed aman aman, which led to the name amanédhes or café-aman. Musicians of this period included Marika Papagika, Agapios Tomboulis, Rosa Eskenazi and Rita Abatzi.
In 1923, many ethnic Greeks from Asia Minor fled to Greece as a result of the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922). They settled in poor neighborhoods in Pireás, Thessaloníki and Athens. Many of these immigrants were highly educated, and included songwriter Vangelis Papazoglou and Panayiotis Toundas, composer and leader of Odeon Records' Greek subsidiary.
One Turkish tradition that came with the Greek migrants was the tekés, or hashish dens. Groups of men would sit in a circle and smoke hashish from a hookah, and improvised music of various kinds was common. Out of this music scene came two of the earliest legends of modern Greek history, Artemis and Markos Vamvakaris. They played in a quartet with Batis and Stratos Payioumtzis. Vamvakaris became perhaps the first star of Greek music after beginning a solo career.
Jp, you can't change the name of the article in the text to Rebetika, while leaving the title as Rebetiko. I've protected this page until you and the other editors have decided on a title. Also, can you tell, when you moved the page, did you do it by cutting and pasting, because we seem to have lost the edit history? SlimVirgin (talk) 05:38, May 25, 2005 (UTC)
Verbatim - except IM name withheld to protect her privacy. She is a ntive Greek-speaker, fluent in English, with a degree from Oxford (which you might think would have given her more polish, but that's for a different discussion)
-- Jpbrenna 18:45, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I've been holding off from editing until there's some consensus on my suggestions and the article title. As there seem to be two voices here arguing for a change, and none arguing against (I've twice contacted the person who complained, asking him to argue his case here, but he seems not to want to), I'll make the move myself over the weekend. I'll allow another day or so to give people a chance to oppose.
Then, if there's no objection to my suggestions above, I'll get started on some of them. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 08:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
-- Jpbrenna 17:02, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
Rebetika is the name for a type of music that originated at the margins of the Greek-speaking world, later widely influencing the emergence of laika.
The music itself emerged largely in the urban centers of Greece - in Athens & Peiraeus, in Thessaloniki and on Siros.
The Greek article provides an excellent base to work from. I am currently translating it. Below is material (some of it added by me before I discovered the Greek article) that didn't fit into the more chronological structure of the Greek version. When the translation is done, we can mine this for material to include in the appropriate sections. -- Jpbrenna 21:13, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Rebetika are the songs of the Greek underworld, sung by the so-called rebetes (Greek: ρεμπέτης). Rebetes were the unconventional people who lived outside the social order. They first appeared after the Greek war of Independence of 1821. They rejected many traditional mores regarding marriage, courtship, dress, speech, and the work ethic. They often went so far as to reject the use of umbrellas and hand-holding with girlfriends. Many smoked hashish and considered a prison record a badge of honor. Despite this often anti-social exterior, many rebetes displayed a social conscience and helped the poor and weak. They spoke a rich slang derived from a variety of sources, accompanied with the ebullient gestures common to the Mediterranean.
Many rebetika songs originated in prison or in
hookah houses. There, the rebetes would sing with a slow, hoarse voice – usually the result of heavy tobacco or or hashish use, but sometimes purposely affected – one after the other. Every singer added a
distich that often had no connection to the previous verse. There was no
refrain. The singing was often accompanied by a
bouzouki or
baglamas.
By 1955 when Greece began to produce long play records in large numbers, the original rebetika had vanished. The production of the rebetika songs is done without the spirit or the complicity of the underworld. Lyrics include refrains and are not necessarily hashish-inspired. Still, many songs still included an echo of earlier themes: Vassilis Tsitsanis's To Vapori Ap' Tin Persia begins:
When someone wants to add a section, they can, but a host of section headings with no text just looks messy and ugly (a stub has to have some content). The "list of songs" is surely absurd; it would run into the thousands, at least. If someone wants to make a separate list, they're welcome — but it would be a quixotic enterprise. Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 7 July 2005 11:48 (UTC)
I merged the zeibekiko and hasapiko stubs into this article. It seemed a logical spot; neither form seemed to have enough substance to be its own article. Hope this helps - Her Pegship 20:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
I've left a message at your Talk page. Neither dance is unique to rembetika, and if they are to be merged into a larger article (which does seem a reasonable move), I think that it should be something more general, such as Greek traditional dance, or Traditional Greek dance, or Traditional dances of Greece, or something like that. -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 22:04, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Is on hold. My friend has expressed reservations about some of the things asserted in the Greek article. She also feels that the list of performer bios will only be filled in by some "absolute fanatic of obscure rebetika figures." Little does she realize that is exactly the sort of person we rely on to get things done on Wikipedia ;) -- Jpbrenna 8 July 2005 20:16 (UTC)
The article currently claims that all rembetika dances were either zeimbekiko or hasapiko; surely this is wrong? Of course those were by far the most common, but I've certainly heard tsifteteli and karsilama (and sometimes hasaposerviko). Of course, modern tourist versions are full of syrtakis, but we can ignore them... -- Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης) 21:17, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
True, as well as "sousta"
The introduction says that the first rebetes appeared after the revolution of 1821.I'm not sure but i think that they first appeared between the refugees of the Asia minor disaster in 1922.... that's when the songs themselves first appeared in any case, so i think it makes more sense... Padem 08:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
There is no mention of Rebetiko in the list of musical genres, but I can not see how to add it. <anon>
Loukas Daralas is mentioned here as a signficant person in this area. If somebody is familiar with him, you wish to add something to the article, and the AFD discussion. -- Rob 11:22, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Can someone provide me with a source before I remove the following claim:
"They first appeared after the Greek War of Independence of 1821."
Miskin 22:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
"Many early rebetic songs were about drugs, especially Hashish which led Rebetiko to be criminalized." I think you are mistaken, but have no references to back myself up. Rebetiko was criminalized by the fascist Metaxas because he wanted Greek music to be like Western Classical music, but Rebetiko was and still is based on scales (dromoi) derived from Ottoman Makams and other middle eastern music. Hashish was probably made illegal for different reasons, such as America exporting its war on Drugs. The Real Walrus 14:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm marking with bold my suggestions herebelow for the opening paragraph. The current definition is not accurate and not well written either, in my opinion. (The case for rebetika appearing "after 1821" for instance is baseless.)
{ Rebetika were the songs of the Greek urban underground, written or sung by the so-called rebetes (Greek: ρεμπέτης rebetis, plural: ρεμπέτες rebetes). Rebetes were unconventional people who lived mostly at the margins of society or even outside it, as outlaws. The main pioneers of rebetika have been the immigrants from the Greek diaspora of Asia Minor.
The songs, often compared to genres like American blues, are full of grief, passion, romance, and bitterness. They are generally slow, melancholic songs about the misfortunes and the affairs of the heart of simple ordinary men. Many early rebetika songs were about drug use, especially hashish, which led Rebetiko to be criminalized during the dictatorship of Ioannis Metaxas in 1936. Not until 1947, when Manos Hadjidakis, through a series of lectures and articles, introduced rebetika to a wider audience were these songs accepted as a legitimate music style. Damianakos Stathis noted that the rebetika songs of the first period were mostly the singing expression of the lumpenproletariat. A lot of rebetika songs are for dancing, zeibekiko and hasapiko being very common, but they also include tsifteteli, karsilamas and other dance styles. } - The Gnome 19:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Is the claim that Metaxas banned it due to some influences from Anatolía really substantial? The claim somebody made that it was because he wanted to make Greek music more "in line" with Western classical traditions is quite strange, since Rebetiko has some similarities to Romantic classical music played on guitar. For example if you compare this by Markos Vamvakaris, to this by Fernando Sor they're not completely alien. Many of the folk musics of Europe have a little bit of cross over with classical music on guitar, including Flamenco, Canzone Napoletana, etc. The idea that it was banned due to the assosiation with drugs seems more realistic to me. - Gennarous ( talk) 07:16, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, he didn't ban all recordings. (btw it doesn't say so in the article). He began the censorship on discography in general, for sure. Many of the artist of the time (Tsitsanis, Papaioannou) claim that the censorship commitment didn't mind only the lyrics but also musical characteristics that where not western-like, at least for their ears. Don't forget Metaxas's regime was a fascist one, and he wanted Greek purity and no association with the Turkish culture. Yangula ( talk) 09:32, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Would it be within Wikipedia policy to include a basic discography of rebetika music? The problem of course is that many Greek records quickly go out of print or are available only in Greece, but there are still a number of good records that are commonly available in the U.S. -- for instance, collections by Rough Guides and on Rounder Records. Maybe the criterion should be to list things that are available on CD via major U.S. based internet vendors. I think it should include only original recordings, not ones by later interpretors. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 22:41, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
Form and spelling are varied, but current Google results are:
So it looks like the leader is rebetiko, though those results may be influence by the very fact that that is the name already chosen for the Wikipedia article. However, the main Library of Congress Authorities subject heading form is Rebetika, which I think is a very important authority. Also, a search for rebetika on Amazon apparently is mapped to all forms of the word, and though I haven't counted, looking over the results seems to indicate that rebetika is the most common English language or transliterated form in currently available books and recordings. Overall, for these reasons, I'd personally prefer rebetika, but I don't think I can make a strong enough case to justify changing it at this point. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 23:18, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
I've put some of the historical background of rebetiko into the article, but it still needs work and references, both to sources and to other Wikipedia entries. I'll try to do more on it later, but anyone else who has the knowledge is invited to add to or revise it. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 14:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Does this page really need both a list of performers and a Famous Performers box? I'd prefer just the latter; it would look more attractive on the page than that long list. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 17:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't think the essay-like article tag is justified here. Looking at the linked style guide I don't see that the article is seriously out of line with it. But I won't remove it until others have a chance to give their opinions. The primary sources tage, on the other hand is justified, but I think that virtually everything stated in the article could be supported by citations of the works referred to in the Further Reading and Discography sections (some of the CDs noted include liner notes or even booklets which are knowledgable enough to be considered scholarly.) Someone just needs to take the time to put in the citations. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 00:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Since no one has commented, I've removed the essay-like article tag. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 02:38, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
According to the etymology of the Greek word acknowledged by most scholars - rembos, rembazo, spelled with mu-beta - the only correct English spelling is REMBETIKO (sc. tragoudi, song). I'm afraid a Google search is not a reliable proof for anything, and the Library of Congress serves practical goals and has nothing to do with orthography: the system used there is based on Ancient Greek spelling and is never used for transliteration of Modern Greek words into English. Although a form with -b- is by now also common, it is much more preferable to write the words "rembetiko", "rembetika" (pl.), "rembetes" with -mb-. -- Vladimir Boskovic ( talk) 15:33, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
Since this issue has been brought up above, here are some hints about it. The word ρεμπέτες is of course Modern Greek. The obsolete hypotheses that attempt to link the words bouzouki, zeibekiko, and rebetes with Αncient Greek roots are nowadays considered totally fringe by contemporary lexicographers. Triantafyllidis foundation (a very respectable source) proposes that rebetes may have a Slavic origin (confer rebyonok, rebyata). But since this is not certain, there are many alternative hypotheses (with varying degrees of credibility). Here is an informal collection of them. -- Omnipaedista ( talk) 19:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I am no pro in these things, but isn't it kinda obvious that "ρεμπέτης" derives from "ρεμβεύτης" losing its "υ" - which is a quite common phenomenon in modern greek. "β" has been spoken as "b" instead of "v" in older times and this is still the case in some dialects. That would explain the shift of "β" to "π", which would have been necessary to retain the original pronunciation of "b". "ρεμβεύτης", by the way, would mean "roamer" from "ρεμβεύω" = "to roam".
"On the other hand, other rebetiko songs, even ones describing criminal activity, became quite popular among the general population. One example is the song, "Varka sto Yialo," meaning "Boat on the Beach," which has a catchy chorus and is still popular and has gained general acceptance. While it is common to hear this song on the radio and in nightclubs, this song actually describes the shipment of drugs, via a boat, at night, from the Middle East."
Is that so? As far as I know this popular song is by Mikis Theodorakis, composed in the 60s, not a rebetiko proper song. And the lyrics talk about a romantic encounter and subsequent immigration. I have not found any other song by that title with the content described here. So unless someone provides details or references, I am inclined to delete this part. Schizophonix ( talk) 13:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
Maybe whoever wrote the paragraph quoted was actually thinking of "The Boat from Persia" ...? Strawberryjampot ( talk) 17:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I've changed back the description of Elias Petropoulos from "one early scholar of rebetica" to "the leading scholar" since 1) he wasn't particularly early, and 2) surely he is the leading scholar. If anyone objects, please discuss here. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 02:57, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I've added back the discography (couldn't revert) for two reasons. First, I don't think on principle such a major change should be made without discussion. Second, please note that the discography was added after a call for discussion of it on this talk page, and the discography was added only after a period for discussion of it had passed with no one objecting to it. This I think is additional reason why the discography should not be simply unilaterally deleted without discussion. Whether it should be included is a legitimate question, but under the circumstances I think it's reasonable to ask that editors who want to delete it to seek consensus via discussion for their action first. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 02:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
The picture should show a trichordo, not a tetrachordo. And preferably a better bouzouki. The Real Walrus ( talk) 14:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
Having returned to this page after not looking at it for some time, I wanted to offer some topics for discussion of its current state.
Overall the article is now good and useful, I think, but there are several areas still needing work.
I was the editor who put the Needs Sources tag on the article, and it seems more justified than ever. There are no sources cited for the sections Taxim or Rhythms of Rebetiko, the whole long section The Postwar Period has only two footnotes, towards the beginning, and many of the other sections seem rather meagerly documented. No doubt documenting sources is tedious, but it has to be done well for an article to be taken seriously. I've documented things myself to the extent I have the knowledge and the sources available to me, but I can't do any more.
I myself don't think the red links are a problem, since I think it's useful to have a full list of performers, even if many of them aren't (yet) in Wikipedia.
The discography is still under discussion, so I suggest leaving it in until something like a consensus emerges. This issue can of course be further discussed. Meanwhile, I'd suggest that if anyone wants to add to the discography, they keep in mind the introductory paragraph describing what sort of materials it includes (and if you don't agree with it, please discuss it here.)
I still feel the same about the name as I stated in the "The Name Again" section, above: it would be best to base the name on actual English usage, which would argue for Rebetika. But I also still feel it might not be worth the trouble to change it.
One of the greatest lacks in this page is of pictures. What pictures ought to be included seems to me pretty much a no-brainer. There are three rebetika photos famous above all others, which are familiar to every serious fan: (1) The Smyrna Trio of Rosa Eskanazi, Semsis, and Tomboul, 2) the large group photo of rebetes in Piraeus in 1937, including Iovan Saouz and Mathesis, and 3) the quartet of Stratos, Markos, Batis, and Artemis. (Personally I'd also like to see the picture of Crazy Nick, Marinos the Moustache, and their dog, though this is more rare and maybe belongs more in the mangas article.) Those three pictures are ubiquitous on the internet and are old enough so that they may be out of copyright, but I'm not very knowledgeable about permissions issues and don't know what needs to be done to get them into Commons so we can use them. If anyone has the knowledge to do this, it would be great.
Personally, I think it would also be appropriate to include photos of a few of the very most major rebetica figures, even if there are already photos of them in individual articles.
I hope the above points will create some useful discussion. Thanks to everyone for reading this, and thanks in advance for your thoughts. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 17:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the page again, I'm starting to change my mind about the red links in the list of performers: there are so many of them, makes the list cumbersome, and it seems questionable whether all those isolated names will be useful to Wikipedia users. If there's a movement to delete them, I wouldn't object. Strawberryjampot ( talk) 22:14, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
Dear all,
please discuss the following. In a recent edit Billarasgr stated in the edit summary “I changed the dates to of rebetiko development because they were wrong. After 1960 rebetiko does not exist in its the "pure" form.” I reverted the edit, essentially because it was unreferenced and left a note on his talk page:
Hi Billasgr! I reverted your last edit, since it was not referenced. While I agrre with you that “After 1960 rebetiko does not exist in its the "pure" form” you shouldn't change something which is referenced. Be bold, but don't forget WP:REF. ;-)
He answered on my talk page:
Dear Alfie,
the reference that states that rebetiko developed in 60 etc has to be removed altogether. This is a book that is not from a native i.e. Greek author. To put it in simple terms that guy just doesn't know what he is talking about. I am Greek and rebetiko player for more than 20 years and I can tell you that rebbetiko does not exist after 50s. Then you may call it "arhontorebetiko" that mostly reflects music listened by middle classes. I would be happy to discuss with you in more detail if you wish.
For now take care and please revert my correction ;)
Cheers, billarasgr
OK, the article quotes “that guy” ten times. Being not a native Greek doesn't disqualify anybody. Gail Holst is Australian, Risto Pennanen Finnish, etc. Though I agree with you personally, WP can't deal with personal opinions (see WP:NOR). If you can come up with a reference, fine. Alfie ↑↓ © 14:33, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
"Like several other urban subcultural musical forms such as the blues, flamenco, fado, and tango, rebetiko grew out of particular urban circumstances"
this is not at all correct. in fact whoever wrote it has no idea what they are saying. these different kinds of music cannot be all jumbled together. much less be called "subcultural"
nobody from montevideo or buenos aires considers tango to be a "subcultural musical form"
nobody in lisbon considers fado to be "subcultural"
nobody in southern spain considers flamenco "subcultural"
nobody in the south of the u.s. would call blues 'subcultural'
for example : you can walk around a town in andalusia and people will be randomly singing flamenco. and they dont have to be a gypsy. or be a part of any 'subculture'
you can easily hear fado all over lisbon- anytime of year
you can see people dancing the tango at the port market in montevideo. any given weekend. or being played in a cafe.
i dont think the word subcultural is properly understood by the author.
i dont think the author properly understand the word 'culture' either. or music. the analysis should be kept to rebetiko, the question of its role in greek society, and its origins, the job is difficult enough without muddling the waters trying to make incorrect corellations to other musical genres.
the article, in greek, makes no such absurd claims about fado or tango,or flamenco being a "subculture" much less labeling the most typical music of a country subcultural.
way to go and annoy millions of people all at once by denigrating their national musical style to 'subculture' status.
we are not talking about hardcore or deathmetal here. these are musical styles that define culture itself. the cultures of entire countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 06:17, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
no one in the country where these musics come from would label it subcultural. if for greeks rembetika is subcultural, great. but that is very different from a spaniards opinion of flamenco, or an americans of blues. much less a lisboetas idea of fado or an uruguayans fondness of tango. your subcultural label does not apply to that music. no i am not greek but my wife is her grandfather had one of the first greek radios in south america. i am a musician and have been to all the countries whose music is brought up here as an example of "subcultural musical forms" the bad things greeks say about rembetika you will never hear in portugal about fado, or in andalusia about flamenco. much less the river plate about tango, or say- chicago or texas about the blues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 07:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
-- ~~~~
sign your posts
. THX.
Alfie
↑↓
© 11:04, 27 April 2011 (UTC)i really don't know but Alfie66 will give you contradictory arguements to explain it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 09:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC) so dont even bring up the 'origins' because the euro/ethnic centricity of this article stinks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk • contribs) 10:05, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
the subject of this article is rebetiko: not what was it, but what is it.
not what was music, but what is music.
for that very reason i cannot understand why an article on greek music would assert that popular uruguayan music, or popular portuguese music is subcultural.
and on top the article also claims that popular musics of argentina, spain and the u.s.also are subcultural.
insane.
you know there is one thing in common to all these musical types: they are NOT "subcultural musical forms"
i would love to have one of you guys show up in for example: lisbon, walk up to a random person and tell him that his national music, fado, is subcultural. maybe then you would understand what you're doing. try it. go ahead. get back to me after your bones heal.
i think the assertion in the article that certain musics are subcultural is elitist and rascist.
in todays europe not to mention the world as a whole, that sort of fascist/reactionary tendencies are very dangerous, not to mention illegal.
what would for example, the portuguese ministry of culture say about the assertion that fado is subcultural? should we have a formal complaint in the euro parliament? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 07:08, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
i am voicing support for greece, portugal, spain, uruguay and argentina as well as the united states by continuing to assert that labeling any music made by any people as "subcultural" is dangerous, fascist, and reactionary.
but lets step away, for a bit, lets get to what i think is wrong with the reference to "subcultural musical forms"
ask yourself: if a country associates itself almost completely with a certain music, is there any way that music can be considered subcultural?
logic would say no. do you understand logic? it goes much farther than opinion.
if a country considers a certain music to be their defining music, then it cannot be subcultural.
you know what that makes it? popular. (as in people man, of the people)
you guys keep on insiting on calling all these different popular musics subcultural. its insulting.
ignorance insults truth.
rembetiko is or isn't popular in greece? stick to that point.
and don't trash other cultures while you are at it.
only some armchair scholar shmuck paid to write for wikipedia would try to argue something like: look portugal: your national music, fado, its subcultural.
it doesnt matter that your whole country considers it their soul food, forget it. its subcultural.
because i say so. in an aritcle on wikipedia about greek music!
and you do this to greece, spain, uruguay, argentina and the u.s. as well.
you have the face to tell tens of millions of people that their POPULAR NATIONAL musics are subcultural?
what you argue is just nonesense.
a music cannot be considered subcultural if a whole country associates itself with it!
what is not clear about that?
again: labeling fado, flamenco, tango, blues & rebetiko as subcultural is fascist, reactionary and rascist.
i just googled: "subcultural musical forms" because it just smells so much of fresh defecation....and fresh production this article is the fifth hit!! 5th on the list on the first page, of almost 100,000 results in fact on the first page, 3 hits reference rembetiko
is this what you guys are after? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 07:41, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
its embarrasing, and shameful.
your grandmother would not be proud
again: labeling fado, flamenco, tango, blues & rebetiko as subcultural is fascist, reactionary and rascist.
in english, its wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.158.153 ( talk) 05:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
Debates on ethnic musical styles around the world
During the last few decades, there has been a shift from the ethnocentric and essentialist perspectives of popular music to more comparative and critical approaches focusing on the dynamic, fluid, complex, and intercultural character of the evolution of ethnic musical styles. Rebetika development and the discourse of popular music within Greek intelligentsia can be seen as a regional example of the sort of processes associated with nationalization, modernization, and urbanization that occurred in many countries from the early-twentieth century to the decades immediately following World War II. During this period, the Balkans and other non-western European countries were coming into existence as political entities or were attempting to extend their borders, strengthening their social cohesiveness. Cultural elites and intellectuals covering the whole spectrum of political tendencies tried to approach the newly constructed musical styles and to define what kind of popular music could be viewed as proper national music.
Since there are some parallels between the origins, evolution, and manipulation of many ethnic musical styles (rebetika, fado, tango, and flamenco) and the discourses that support them, a brief comparative exploration can help us link our topic to broader ideological and aesthetic issues. It should be acknowledged, however, that these similarities, as Holst-Warhaft points out, “should not blind us to the particular circumstances” under which each genre developed and transformed, not to mention the task of reexamining the social and cultural context of these styles in a more focused way, demystifying prevalent stereotypes and prejudices.
The case of Argentinean tango supplies an example of a parallel debate concerning popular music. In its early stages, tango was scorned by the Eurocentric native aristocracy because of its ethnic “impurity” and its associations with slums and brothels. During the period between the two World Wars, tango spread and became popular throughout Argentina and then Europe. The Parisian bourgeoisie cleansed tango, offering a new, acceptable, and exotic version of a stylized tango while the Argentine aristocracy re-invented the genre as its own private genre. Argentineans treated tango as the quintessential expression of their own national character, tracing in its evolution the history of their identity.
The ways in which local elites manipulate ethnic musical styles are evident in the case of Trinidadian steelband, which was transformed from a grassroots carnival street music of the urban poor into the national voice of Trinidad and Tobago. This transformation has been analyzed as a cultural process that involved negotiations between different ethnic groups and intellectual circles about the definition and use of popular music—negotiations that hinged on the interests and aspirations of the interlocutors.
Similar contextual changes were found in Spanish flamenco and Portugal fado. According to Da Costa Holton’s analysis, these musical styles emerged as the “cultural expression of marginalized communities, which were then popularized by mainstream.” Today they are performed mainly for domestic and foreign tourists. Like rebetika fado was born in a social milieu marked by marginalization and has a long history of intense change and transformation. Fado became the subject of a strong debate concerning national identity and political affiliation. Many intellectuals connected fado with a mythical past, reflecting the eternal national soul, while others linked it to a cathartic expression of Portuguese working-class longings. Over the last several decades, new theories have challenged previously regnant impressionistic or ethnocentric notions by shifting the focus to transcultural, dynamic, and fluid aspects of the genre.
Flamenco was performed first in intimate Andalusian settings, among the marginal social groups and soon embraced by young Spanish playboys and philanthropist aristocrats, the so called senioritos. They frequented the dives and became admirers of the music of Andalusian proletariat. As Mitchell points out, flamenco challenged the theories of the racial mystification of flamenco as a genre with ancient, obscure, and oriental roots. Thus, the discourse of flamenco had to refine and neutralize the role of marginal groups in the evolution of the genre, in order to promote it as an exotic and passionate “pure” Spanish song. Flamenco was conscripted to serve political aspirations of both the cultural policy makers of Franco’s fascist regime and of those who opposed them—and, like rebetika, the genre became the subject of various transformations and periodic revivals that attempted to restore flamenco puro.— Yiannis Zaimakis, ‘Forbidden Fruits’ and the Communist Paradise: Marxist Thinking on Greekness and Class in Rebetika, Music & Politics 4 (1): 1–25. (Winter 2010)
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help)While users contribute positively, constructing the Greek articles ( user:Woohookitty for WPCleaner (v1.09)) , Future Perfect at Sunrise change - commute them unconstructivly. - http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Rebetiko&action=history - http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Hellenic_languages&action=history ---- be more cautious for better edits... - -- SymposiumP ( talk) 12:24, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
I think that the first source Vintage Recordings from a Greek Underworld. ARKO CD008, CD & book isn't qhite reliable for the credibility of rebetiko. -- CanarianIsland ( talk) 00:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC) Alterations 'made sense, your alterations made NO sence and dromoi are evoked before in the article as taximi after the Arabic word usually transliterated as taqsim, and written in Greek ταξίμ, has nothing to do with Turkey. Here is Makam. Otherwise It will be corrected next days asap. -- CanarianIsland ( talk) 21:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
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Considering that Islam pretty much destroys the music of all the cultures it conquers, it is MUCH more likely that this music originated with non Muslim Greeks, Armenians, Gypsies and others who lived under Ottoman rule and were not barred by their religion from having either singing, dancing, drinking and otherwise having fun.
As an example of how strict Muslims can be (but not always are) an Iranian who was playing music in Saudi had his hands smashed by the Saudi religious police. Sucks to have been him! 71.174.131.160 ( talk) 10:37, 15 January 2019 (UTC)