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I want to let it be known that I have tried to discuss both sides to this interesting tale. I hope that people on both sides can learn from it
??? bit of a cryptic message above t ali 28/01/06
Ragib, your insistence is illogical and therefore I have removed your edit. Following are the reasons. Please do not undo without logically responding to each:
1. As I had indicated earlier, it is irrelevant to mention a difference of opinion between PAF and BAF about the incident, since that's speculation from both organization. Let's stick to the facts only. 2. There was no BAF at the time of this incident, nor was BAF a party to the incident, so the mention of BAF's opinion is completely irrelevant. 3. You gave your reference of BAF, but the link is to the History of BAF, not about Rashid Minhas. Therefore, it needed to be removed. IrfanMajeed ( talk) 14:41, 31 August 2009 (UTC)Irfan Majeed, August 31, 2009, 10:39AM.
Please don't waste everyone's time by insisting on "your way", without sound logic. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IrfanMajeed ( talk • contribs) 14:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I changed "War with India" to Bangladesh Liberation War, as the war with India didn't officially start until December 3. What caused the plane to crash is not known with certainty to this day. Speculations range from a struggle between the two officers, to friendly fire by Indian forces. So, I reworded the "Minhas realized that ..." part adding the note about that. Thanks. -- Ragib 06:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Reply to Ragib: The plane wreckage was 40km inside Pakistani territory, that means it was not shot down during any "unofficial" war. Among speculation the theory of struggle between the two men is more plausible.
Ragib reverted my edit (Cisguy)... "What caused the plane to crash is not known with certainty to this day." OK. that was a real cowardly act by MutiurRahman, a treator, who kidnapped a young boy of 21. You cannot justify this and it is a fact that Rashid Minhas himself crashed the plane.. His last words are recorded (You can find it on google) in which he said he is taking the plane down. :struggle between the two officers" it was not a struggle, one was chloroformed and the other was a kid. Be Real and see the fact and revert my old edit. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cisguy (
talk •
contribs)
I have changed the page slightly by removing the sentence "either rehman crasehed the plane" because no one has ever made this claim, not even the bangladesh govt.PAF's official version says that Minhas crashed the plane. Other versions either uphold this view or say that the plane crashed due to the struggle between the two pilots.-- Shahin-e-Iqbal
The Plane was brought down "with a cause not known" . . . are we stupid here? Why else would the damn plane come down? Mechanical failure on a serviced T-33 trainer that just took off? Friendly fire from India 40 miles INLAND from the border. The author of this is some piece of shit that can't come to grips with the fact that the pilot in a valiant act of courage took the plane down. I don't care what country you are from, being from neither, I recognize and respect valor when it is displayed. Get a grip, get the facts straight and use some common sense. The pilot, at age 21, downed the plane himself, which of course had no bearing on the eventual separation of the two nations, but still took the plane down HIMSELF! "cause not known" please lets stop the bullshit there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.209.133.98 ( talk • contribs)
Hello Ragib, thanks for your comments. I went through the last few edits and have noted quite a few additions and subsequent deletions of 2 links to Internet Discussion forums that I added in my last edit to this article. My thoughts, which were something very similar when I first put the links in place, are as follows -
1. The basic principle behind Wikipedia is also like that of an internet discussion forum, where users share their thoughts and exchange ideas in a recordable form. The main difference is that , while in an Internet discussion forum, the changes are not overwritten, in wikipedia, they can be overwritten. I therefore disagree to your comments that "these are not really articles, rather forum discussions" and "Please link to an article. Discussion in an Internet forum is not encyclopedic". Wikipeida is based on the same principles. Moreover the first of the 2 Internet Discussion Forum webpage has actually some very good and factual information on the incident.
2. I have moved these 2 links to the new heading of External Links now, from the earlier heading of References. I have also clearly mentioned that these are Internet Group Discussions and not articles.
Please do let me know your thoughts on this.
In pursuit of getting it right, I have actually ended up editing the article a couple of time in the space of the last few minutes. Do excuse me for this. Jordy 13:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The image has been re-tagged as fair use because of the non comercial nature of its display.
The image Image:Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --09:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
The plane did not crash by itself, Minhaas turned the direction of the plane towards the ground. This is a known fact and taught in Pakistan's textbooks everywhere. If the facts are changed or portrayed in a way that doesn't correctly display the bravado of a pakistani pilot just because he is a Pakistani, wikipedia is not NEUTRAL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.202.16 ( talk) 05:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I removed this line because Minhas is unknown in BD ( not only unknown, he is completely unknown in Bangladesh ). Welcome to search this among BD friends if u have around.
This should be changed as it is biased and not understandable. Further, it is mentioned that Minhas proved himself 'on and off the battlefield'. I do not see any reference for 'on battlefield'. The language of this article, again, is unfairly biased towards so called gallantry of Rashid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StarChaser ( talk • contribs) 12:08, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I am requesting references from reliable sources backing this claim. Per my request, TopGun has added the following. I claim that the following are not at all reliable sources for such an important claim:
So, we need objective and neutral sources (and NOT Pakistan Airforce's version of the event) that supports the claim about the crash. With utmost respect to Pilot officer Minhas, I request that either neutral and WP:RS sources are provided about the event. At any rate, we need to make it NPOV by providing other theories about the cause of the crash. BTW, even none of the non RS sources support the claim about Minhas carrying "state secrets". -- Ragib ( talk) 16:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Publishing of content in a reliable source makes it notable and reliable regardless of it's previous position as I explained above. I'm not basing my argument on pakdef but on samaa tv and other sources which I added. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 09:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
The globalsecurity website lends its own authority to information that it republishes from other sources. However, the claim that Minhas deliberately crashed his jet is very thinly supported. The story is too easily seen as nationalistic and hopeful rather than neutral and accurate. Minhas could very well have crashed by accident; no proof of his intention is described in the reports. He did not radio to his base to say something like "I will now die for my country and take the traitor with me!" He could have been continuing the struggle to regain control at the moment of the crash. Binksternet ( talk) 17:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I like the current version by Binksternet ... this clearly provides the facts without nationalistic fluff and PAF propaganda. And I'm all for including Cecil Chaudhury's investigation report. The youtube drama can't be used as a reference as it is completely non-RS (anyone can make up a muffled audio and upload to Youtube. The authenticity of the audio cannot be ascertained). -- Ragib ( talk) 02:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
We do, however, need a RS ref for the crash investigation by Cecil Chaudhury. Right now, the reference provided is from Pakdef, and it has been deemed a non-RS source by consensus. -- Ragib ( talk) 07:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
It is possible for PAF to have a complete (classified) RT record, which makes clear the intentions, to base the report on (which is a possibility like the ones you were stating). But wait... I'm not arguing the real world facts such as this here that you explain. This does not necessarily have to be added as a simple fact... rather attributed to PAF. Other incident articles are doing it this way.. stating the majority view (attributed) and then other sources' views. Here we're simply adding the description of the incident in an unrelated form and then later adding citations. Actually the current version shows no views of how the crash happened until after it is fully described. My argument is on the sources. Yes, you say that the report does not have technical details... but then again, I don't think that is followed in any other news reports. Also, I've not stated that the wording used here should be promotional. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 16:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Here's what I mean:
This is more in order than the current version. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 13:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
How do we know all these? The only source is the NeH citation, which is more likely written as propaganda. Also, you should put the claim stated in the NeH citation in quotes ... that is not fact, rather a claim. So, you need to write "Minhas' Pakistan military citation for Nishan-E-Haider claims that Minhas crashed the plane ....". As Binkster states above, there is no way PAF can come to that conclusion since there is no physical evidence for any part of that sentence. (how on earth, for example, do we know Minhas didn't hesitate? That type of propaganda language belongs to PAF citations, and to mention it in Wikipedia, you need qualifiers and quotations to properly attribute this). -- Ragib ( talk) 08:52, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry that my recent edit to the article mistakenly connected the phrase "without hesitation" to the act of crashing the plane on purpose. The official NeH citation says that Minhas "without hesitation" fought to take control from Rahman. Binksternet ( talk) 15:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Rashid Minhas. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Rashid Minhas article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I want to let it be known that I have tried to discuss both sides to this interesting tale. I hope that people on both sides can learn from it
??? bit of a cryptic message above t ali 28/01/06
Ragib, your insistence is illogical and therefore I have removed your edit. Following are the reasons. Please do not undo without logically responding to each:
1. As I had indicated earlier, it is irrelevant to mention a difference of opinion between PAF and BAF about the incident, since that's speculation from both organization. Let's stick to the facts only. 2. There was no BAF at the time of this incident, nor was BAF a party to the incident, so the mention of BAF's opinion is completely irrelevant. 3. You gave your reference of BAF, but the link is to the History of BAF, not about Rashid Minhas. Therefore, it needed to be removed. IrfanMajeed ( talk) 14:41, 31 August 2009 (UTC)Irfan Majeed, August 31, 2009, 10:39AM.
Please don't waste everyone's time by insisting on "your way", without sound logic. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IrfanMajeed ( talk • contribs) 14:36, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I changed "War with India" to Bangladesh Liberation War, as the war with India didn't officially start until December 3. What caused the plane to crash is not known with certainty to this day. Speculations range from a struggle between the two officers, to friendly fire by Indian forces. So, I reworded the "Minhas realized that ..." part adding the note about that. Thanks. -- Ragib 06:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Reply to Ragib: The plane wreckage was 40km inside Pakistani territory, that means it was not shot down during any "unofficial" war. Among speculation the theory of struggle between the two men is more plausible.
Ragib reverted my edit (Cisguy)... "What caused the plane to crash is not known with certainty to this day." OK. that was a real cowardly act by MutiurRahman, a treator, who kidnapped a young boy of 21. You cannot justify this and it is a fact that Rashid Minhas himself crashed the plane.. His last words are recorded (You can find it on google) in which he said he is taking the plane down. :struggle between the two officers" it was not a struggle, one was chloroformed and the other was a kid. Be Real and see the fact and revert my old edit. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Cisguy (
talk •
contribs)
I have changed the page slightly by removing the sentence "either rehman crasehed the plane" because no one has ever made this claim, not even the bangladesh govt.PAF's official version says that Minhas crashed the plane. Other versions either uphold this view or say that the plane crashed due to the struggle between the two pilots.-- Shahin-e-Iqbal
The Plane was brought down "with a cause not known" . . . are we stupid here? Why else would the damn plane come down? Mechanical failure on a serviced T-33 trainer that just took off? Friendly fire from India 40 miles INLAND from the border. The author of this is some piece of shit that can't come to grips with the fact that the pilot in a valiant act of courage took the plane down. I don't care what country you are from, being from neither, I recognize and respect valor when it is displayed. Get a grip, get the facts straight and use some common sense. The pilot, at age 21, downed the plane himself, which of course had no bearing on the eventual separation of the two nations, but still took the plane down HIMSELF! "cause not known" please lets stop the bullshit there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.209.133.98 ( talk • contribs)
Hello Ragib, thanks for your comments. I went through the last few edits and have noted quite a few additions and subsequent deletions of 2 links to Internet Discussion forums that I added in my last edit to this article. My thoughts, which were something very similar when I first put the links in place, are as follows -
1. The basic principle behind Wikipedia is also like that of an internet discussion forum, where users share their thoughts and exchange ideas in a recordable form. The main difference is that , while in an Internet discussion forum, the changes are not overwritten, in wikipedia, they can be overwritten. I therefore disagree to your comments that "these are not really articles, rather forum discussions" and "Please link to an article. Discussion in an Internet forum is not encyclopedic". Wikipeida is based on the same principles. Moreover the first of the 2 Internet Discussion Forum webpage has actually some very good and factual information on the incident.
2. I have moved these 2 links to the new heading of External Links now, from the earlier heading of References. I have also clearly mentioned that these are Internet Group Discussions and not articles.
Please do let me know your thoughts on this.
In pursuit of getting it right, I have actually ended up editing the article a couple of time in the space of the last few minutes. Do excuse me for this. Jordy 13:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
The image has been re-tagged as fair use because of the non comercial nature of its display.
The image Image:Pilot Officer Rashid Minhas.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --09:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
The plane did not crash by itself, Minhaas turned the direction of the plane towards the ground. This is a known fact and taught in Pakistan's textbooks everywhere. If the facts are changed or portrayed in a way that doesn't correctly display the bravado of a pakistani pilot just because he is a Pakistani, wikipedia is not NEUTRAL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.59.202.16 ( talk) 05:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I removed this line because Minhas is unknown in BD ( not only unknown, he is completely unknown in Bangladesh ). Welcome to search this among BD friends if u have around.
This should be changed as it is biased and not understandable. Further, it is mentioned that Minhas proved himself 'on and off the battlefield'. I do not see any reference for 'on battlefield'. The language of this article, again, is unfairly biased towards so called gallantry of Rashid. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StarChaser ( talk • contribs) 12:08, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I am requesting references from reliable sources backing this claim. Per my request, TopGun has added the following. I claim that the following are not at all reliable sources for such an important claim:
So, we need objective and neutral sources (and NOT Pakistan Airforce's version of the event) that supports the claim about the crash. With utmost respect to Pilot officer Minhas, I request that either neutral and WP:RS sources are provided about the event. At any rate, we need to make it NPOV by providing other theories about the cause of the crash. BTW, even none of the non RS sources support the claim about Minhas carrying "state secrets". -- Ragib ( talk) 16:50, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Publishing of content in a reliable source makes it notable and reliable regardless of it's previous position as I explained above. I'm not basing my argument on pakdef but on samaa tv and other sources which I added. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 09:41, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
The globalsecurity website lends its own authority to information that it republishes from other sources. However, the claim that Minhas deliberately crashed his jet is very thinly supported. The story is too easily seen as nationalistic and hopeful rather than neutral and accurate. Minhas could very well have crashed by accident; no proof of his intention is described in the reports. He did not radio to his base to say something like "I will now die for my country and take the traitor with me!" He could have been continuing the struggle to regain control at the moment of the crash. Binksternet ( talk) 17:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I like the current version by Binksternet ... this clearly provides the facts without nationalistic fluff and PAF propaganda. And I'm all for including Cecil Chaudhury's investigation report. The youtube drama can't be used as a reference as it is completely non-RS (anyone can make up a muffled audio and upload to Youtube. The authenticity of the audio cannot be ascertained). -- Ragib ( talk) 02:21, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
We do, however, need a RS ref for the crash investigation by Cecil Chaudhury. Right now, the reference provided is from Pakdef, and it has been deemed a non-RS source by consensus. -- Ragib ( talk) 07:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
It is possible for PAF to have a complete (classified) RT record, which makes clear the intentions, to base the report on (which is a possibility like the ones you were stating). But wait... I'm not arguing the real world facts such as this here that you explain. This does not necessarily have to be added as a simple fact... rather attributed to PAF. Other incident articles are doing it this way.. stating the majority view (attributed) and then other sources' views. Here we're simply adding the description of the incident in an unrelated form and then later adding citations. Actually the current version shows no views of how the crash happened until after it is fully described. My argument is on the sources. Yes, you say that the report does not have technical details... but then again, I don't think that is followed in any other news reports. Also, I've not stated that the wording used here should be promotional. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 16:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
Here's what I mean:
This is more in order than the current version. -- lTopGunl ( talk) 13:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
How do we know all these? The only source is the NeH citation, which is more likely written as propaganda. Also, you should put the claim stated in the NeH citation in quotes ... that is not fact, rather a claim. So, you need to write "Minhas' Pakistan military citation for Nishan-E-Haider claims that Minhas crashed the plane ....". As Binkster states above, there is no way PAF can come to that conclusion since there is no physical evidence for any part of that sentence. (how on earth, for example, do we know Minhas didn't hesitate? That type of propaganda language belongs to PAF citations, and to mention it in Wikipedia, you need qualifiers and quotations to properly attribute this). -- Ragib ( talk) 08:52, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry that my recent edit to the article mistakenly connected the phrase "without hesitation" to the act of crashing the plane on purpose. The official NeH citation says that Minhas "without hesitation" fought to take control from Rahman. Binksternet ( talk) 15:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Rashid Minhas. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:30, 10 December 2017 (UTC)