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Rainhill trials was a
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please do; it may then be
renominated. Review: March 23, 2007. |
On 22 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Rainhill Trials to Rainhill trials. The result of the discussion was moved. |
was one of the drivers to hold these trials not also that some saw George Stephenson as having a conflict of interest ? (ie he was both advising the Railway about the preferred means of haulage ( steam locomotive) and happened to be closely connected with a company making steam locomotives) (same tale on the Stockton and Darlington, of course, but/and Edward Pease (the S&D chairman) was also a director of Robert Stephenson & Co) Rjccumbria 14:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
George Stephenson was in the middle of nearly everything to do with the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. A number of other people from the L&MR were also involved with Robert Stephenson & Co. My feeling is through, however much we talk of improper relationships and even foul play over Sans Pareil's castings (I've yet to edit this into the Sans Pareil Page), history has shown Stephenson to be correct!
It also seem to be true to say that there were very few people in the world who could have got the L&MR to where it was in 1830/31 other than George and Robert Stephenson. AHEMSLTD 14:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Should the Rainhill 150 Anniversary Cavalcade (1980) also be mentioned here? - I see the Sans Pareil image was taken at that event... Andywebby 23:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. LuciferMorgan 00:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is currently under Good Article Review. LuciferMorgan 03:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The articel says: "Ten locomotives were entered, but only five locomotives actually began the tests."
This raises the questions:
What are the names of the other five locomotives?
Who did build them and what did they look like?
-- Panzerlad ( talk) 12:44, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Was this £25 (per article), £26 (per recent change) or £25 guineas – slightly more than £26 (a guinea is 5% more than a pound: it's a pound and a shilling, rather than the 20 shillings that made up a pound). AFAIR, and which fits with the general cultural use of guineas, this prize was a round number of guineas. Andy Dingley ( talk) 11:20, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
This article takes an awful long time to get to the point. I think the initial summary needs much improvement, and should mention the Stephenson's and the Rocket. CuddlySteve ( talk) 16:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't think this can be described as a "contemporary" picture. The Illustrated London News first appeared in 1842, and I see that no date or page number is given in the source notes.
It is much more likely to be later conjectural picture; the overbridge on the left looks nothing like the actual Rainhill bridge, and the grandstand was actually ¼ mile east of the bridge. (See R.H.G. Thomas: The Liverpool & Manchester Railway, Batsford, 1980, p71.)
The same engraving appears in Samuel Smiles' Lives of the Engineers G & R Stephenson - on p259 in the only edition I have, published in 1904. It probably also appeared in earlier editions, but the first of these was in 1861-2. Hyjack7 ( talk) 14:25, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
So, can anyone say exactly when this engraving first appeared? And if it ever was in the Illustrated London News, what date and page? 'Contemporary' - with what, exactly? Hyjack7 ( talk) 23:27, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I have just deleted a recent insertion which said that the Rainhill Trials were held "in St Helens, Lancashire". In 1829 St Helens was a small town about 2.6 miles away from the Trials site, so it isn't true to say they were held "in" St Helens, and "Lancashire" is already mentioned just below. Hyjack7 ( talk) 13:32, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
...a competition to decide whether stationary steam engines or locomotives would be used to pull the trains.
"(Note: The only other passenger railway in the world at that time, the Stockton and Darlington Railway, had an average speed of only about 8 miles per hour (13 km/h).)"
Not factually correct, it would seem. Referring to /info/en/?search=Timeline_of_railway_history :
"1807 - First fare-paying, passenger railway service in the world was established on the Oystermouth Railway in Swansea, Wales."
"1825 - Stephenson's Stockton and Darlington Railway, the first publicly subscribed, adhesion worked railway using steam locomotives, carrying freight from a Colliery to a river port (Passengers were conveyed by horse-drawn carriages) - so the welsh was earlier
"1830 - The Liverpool and Manchester Railway opened, and the first steam passenger service, primarily locomotive-hauled, began. The line proved the viability of rail transport. Large scale railway construction started in Britain, then spread throughout the world, beginning the Railway Age." 109.156.246.251 ( talk) 11:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
It is almost incomprehensible to leave Henry Booth completely out of this article. Apart from He was co-sponsor of the premier engine Rocket with input into its specification and arranged for its firebox to be built in Liverpool. He also had the power to arrange systemic bias to ensure the trial could be optimally arranged for Rocket's participation; whilst perhaps giving (relatively) limited notice to competitors. That said his objectives to get suppliers to raise the bar to provide locomotives suitable for operating the Liverpool and Manchester railway and demonstrating to give investor confidence that locomotives could do the job were probably his primary objective. Trouble is what I have here is as uncited might be WP:ORIGINAL and a non disruptional insertion might be a tad difficult. Djm-leighpark ( talk) 11:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I think the recent page move (From "Rainhill Trials" to "Rainhill trials") should have been discussed here first.
Most sources I see use the capitalised form to describe this event. These include: The Science Museum The Museum of Science and Industry, Manchester St Helens council Engineering Timelines NESTA
I can't offhand find any sources that use the form "Rainhill trials". I do see sources that use phrases like "the trials at Rainhill". The National Railway Museum uses "trial" uncapitalised in "the L&MR's directors decided to hold performance trials to discover "the most improved locomotive engine" for the railway, with a prize of £500." Here, but that is not the same as the descriptive title "Rainhill trials". Nowhere uses that title without capitalising the second word. Hallucegenia ( talk) 16:22, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
So to begin with I am disrupted to expanding those URLs into something useful, obviously this has taken some time. (Snow, 2016) uses "Rainhill trials" in body text quotes sources using "Rainhill Trials". (Richards, 2007)/(Richards 1973) uses both forms. (Beasley, 1997) is an adaptation of an earlier publication. Of the books I use for L&MR stuff (Carlson, Robert E.; 1969) uses "Rainhill Trials"; (Thomas, RHG; 1980), (Fernyhough, F; 1980), (Dawson, 2019), (Dawson, 2020), (Dawson, 2021) all use Rainhill Trials. (I'll dig the full cites for those if I have to, but I don;t want to lose this edit). Obviously I'm broadly concuring with Hallucegenia's analysis. Thankyou.
Djm-leighpark (
talk) 11:44, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Here are more 21st-century books (and a magazine) that user lowercase trials:
Sources are clearly not consistently capitalizing it, as they do with proper names. Dicklyon ( talk) 18:06, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Note what Djm- says above: (Snow, 2016) uses "Rainhill trials" in body text, quotes sources using "Rainhill Trials". So that book contributes 2 counts to lowercase and 2 to uppercase in the n-gram stats. But those uppercase uses are citations to book titles, so if we had a way to collect stats on usage in sentences, which is what WP relies on, we would not count those capped ones at all. Many of the 21st-century capped occurrences are like this, title-case citations to prior works (such as these books); many others are title-case chapter headings and such. Plus, there's just a big tread in special writing, such as rail-fan writing, toward capping things important to the topic; see WP:SSF. We should stick with WP's guidance and avoid unnecessary capitalization. Dicklyon ( talk) 18:34, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
...the successful Rainhill trials of 1829 demonstrated...and
... after the Rainhill trials Timothy Hackworth's 'Sans Pareil' ...(Reed, p. 17). -- Redrose64 🌹 ( talk) 14:14, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. There's consensus that there is not a "substantial majority" of sources that capitalize "trials"; !voters consequently agree that, per MOS:CAPS, we should not capitalize it either. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 03:39, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Rainhill Trials → Rainhill trials – Per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS, we should use sentence case, not title case. This event is commonly referred to in sources as "the Rainhill trials" with lowercase trials, all through the 19th and 20th centuries. Recently there's a tendency toward more capitalization, but not enough to meet the criterion in MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon ( talk) 03:25, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Rainhill trials was a
good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the
good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it,
please do; it may then be
renominated. Review: March 23, 2007. |
On 22 February 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Rainhill Trials to Rainhill trials. The result of the discussion was moved. |
was one of the drivers to hold these trials not also that some saw George Stephenson as having a conflict of interest ? (ie he was both advising the Railway about the preferred means of haulage ( steam locomotive) and happened to be closely connected with a company making steam locomotives) (same tale on the Stockton and Darlington, of course, but/and Edward Pease (the S&D chairman) was also a director of Robert Stephenson & Co) Rjccumbria 14:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
George Stephenson was in the middle of nearly everything to do with the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. A number of other people from the L&MR were also involved with Robert Stephenson & Co. My feeling is through, however much we talk of improper relationships and even foul play over Sans Pareil's castings (I've yet to edit this into the Sans Pareil Page), history has shown Stephenson to be correct!
It also seem to be true to say that there were very few people in the world who could have got the L&MR to where it was in 1830/31 other than George and Robert Stephenson. AHEMSLTD 14:07, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Should the Rainhill 150 Anniversary Cavalcade (1980) also be mentioned here? - I see the Sans Pareil image was taken at that event... Andywebby 23:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. LuciferMorgan 00:29, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is currently under Good Article Review. LuciferMorgan 03:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The articel says: "Ten locomotives were entered, but only five locomotives actually began the tests."
This raises the questions:
What are the names of the other five locomotives?
Who did build them and what did they look like?
-- Panzerlad ( talk) 12:44, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Was this £25 (per article), £26 (per recent change) or £25 guineas – slightly more than £26 (a guinea is 5% more than a pound: it's a pound and a shilling, rather than the 20 shillings that made up a pound). AFAIR, and which fits with the general cultural use of guineas, this prize was a round number of guineas. Andy Dingley ( talk) 11:20, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
This article takes an awful long time to get to the point. I think the initial summary needs much improvement, and should mention the Stephenson's and the Rocket. CuddlySteve ( talk) 16:46, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't think this can be described as a "contemporary" picture. The Illustrated London News first appeared in 1842, and I see that no date or page number is given in the source notes.
It is much more likely to be later conjectural picture; the overbridge on the left looks nothing like the actual Rainhill bridge, and the grandstand was actually ¼ mile east of the bridge. (See R.H.G. Thomas: The Liverpool & Manchester Railway, Batsford, 1980, p71.)
The same engraving appears in Samuel Smiles' Lives of the Engineers G & R Stephenson - on p259 in the only edition I have, published in 1904. It probably also appeared in earlier editions, but the first of these was in 1861-2. Hyjack7 ( talk) 14:25, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
So, can anyone say exactly when this engraving first appeared? And if it ever was in the Illustrated London News, what date and page? 'Contemporary' - with what, exactly? Hyjack7 ( talk) 23:27, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I have just deleted a recent insertion which said that the Rainhill Trials were held "in St Helens, Lancashire". In 1829 St Helens was a small town about 2.6 miles away from the Trials site, so it isn't true to say they were held "in" St Helens, and "Lancashire" is already mentioned just below. Hyjack7 ( talk) 13:32, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
...a competition to decide whether stationary steam engines or locomotives would be used to pull the trains.
"(Note: The only other passenger railway in the world at that time, the Stockton and Darlington Railway, had an average speed of only about 8 miles per hour (13 km/h).)"
Not factually correct, it would seem. Referring to /info/en/?search=Timeline_of_railway_history :
"1807 - First fare-paying, passenger railway service in the world was established on the Oystermouth Railway in Swansea, Wales."
"1825 - Stephenson's Stockton and Darlington Railway, the first publicly subscribed, adhesion worked railway using steam locomotives, carrying freight from a Colliery to a river port (Passengers were conveyed by horse-drawn carriages) - so the welsh was earlier
"1830 - The Liverpool and Manchester Railway opened, and the first steam passenger service, primarily locomotive-hauled, began. The line proved the viability of rail transport. Large scale railway construction started in Britain, then spread throughout the world, beginning the Railway Age." 109.156.246.251 ( talk) 11:01, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
It is almost incomprehensible to leave Henry Booth completely out of this article. Apart from He was co-sponsor of the premier engine Rocket with input into its specification and arranged for its firebox to be built in Liverpool. He also had the power to arrange systemic bias to ensure the trial could be optimally arranged for Rocket's participation; whilst perhaps giving (relatively) limited notice to competitors. That said his objectives to get suppliers to raise the bar to provide locomotives suitable for operating the Liverpool and Manchester railway and demonstrating to give investor confidence that locomotives could do the job were probably his primary objective. Trouble is what I have here is as uncited might be WP:ORIGINAL and a non disruptional insertion might be a tad difficult. Djm-leighpark ( talk) 11:13, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
I think the recent page move (From "Rainhill Trials" to "Rainhill trials") should have been discussed here first.
Most sources I see use the capitalised form to describe this event. These include: The Science Museum The Museum of Science and Industry, Manchester St Helens council Engineering Timelines NESTA
I can't offhand find any sources that use the form "Rainhill trials". I do see sources that use phrases like "the trials at Rainhill". The National Railway Museum uses "trial" uncapitalised in "the L&MR's directors decided to hold performance trials to discover "the most improved locomotive engine" for the railway, with a prize of £500." Here, but that is not the same as the descriptive title "Rainhill trials". Nowhere uses that title without capitalising the second word. Hallucegenia ( talk) 16:22, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
So to begin with I am disrupted to expanding those URLs into something useful, obviously this has taken some time. (Snow, 2016) uses "Rainhill trials" in body text quotes sources using "Rainhill Trials". (Richards, 2007)/(Richards 1973) uses both forms. (Beasley, 1997) is an adaptation of an earlier publication. Of the books I use for L&MR stuff (Carlson, Robert E.; 1969) uses "Rainhill Trials"; (Thomas, RHG; 1980), (Fernyhough, F; 1980), (Dawson, 2019), (Dawson, 2020), (Dawson, 2021) all use Rainhill Trials. (I'll dig the full cites for those if I have to, but I don;t want to lose this edit). Obviously I'm broadly concuring with Hallucegenia's analysis. Thankyou.
Djm-leighpark (
talk) 11:44, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Here are more 21st-century books (and a magazine) that user lowercase trials:
Sources are clearly not consistently capitalizing it, as they do with proper names. Dicklyon ( talk) 18:06, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Note what Djm- says above: (Snow, 2016) uses "Rainhill trials" in body text, quotes sources using "Rainhill Trials". So that book contributes 2 counts to lowercase and 2 to uppercase in the n-gram stats. But those uppercase uses are citations to book titles, so if we had a way to collect stats on usage in sentences, which is what WP relies on, we would not count those capped ones at all. Many of the 21st-century capped occurrences are like this, title-case citations to prior works (such as these books); many others are title-case chapter headings and such. Plus, there's just a big tread in special writing, such as rail-fan writing, toward capping things important to the topic; see WP:SSF. We should stick with WP's guidance and avoid unnecessary capitalization. Dicklyon ( talk) 18:34, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
...the successful Rainhill trials of 1829 demonstrated...and
... after the Rainhill trials Timothy Hackworth's 'Sans Pareil' ...(Reed, p. 17). -- Redrose64 🌹 ( talk) 14:14, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. There's consensus that there is not a "substantial majority" of sources that capitalize "trials"; !voters consequently agree that, per MOS:CAPS, we should not capitalize it either. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ ( talk) 03:39, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
Rainhill Trials → Rainhill trials – Per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS, we should use sentence case, not title case. This event is commonly referred to in sources as "the Rainhill trials" with lowercase trials, all through the 19th and 20th centuries. Recently there's a tendency toward more capitalization, but not enough to meet the criterion in MOS:CAPS. Dicklyon ( talk) 03:25, 22 February 2022 (UTC)