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"For the vast majority of human evolution, Africa has been the region that produced new hominids with larger brains. For example fossils of early humans who lived between 2 and 5 million years ago come entirely from Africa. [1]During the period of human evolution brain size increased from 400cc to 1400cc [2]. On a number of occasions these hominids migrated out of Africa to Europe and Asia. These include homo erectus and the Neanderthals who evolved in Europe from a large brained hominid from Africa. Though living in the colder regions, the Neanderthals and homo erectus would later be displaced by technologically more advanced immigrants from the warmer regions of Africa, the such as the African Cro-Magnon."
This article is about the evolutionary history of intelligence in the races of Homo sapiens sapiens. Other species are irrelevant.
MoritzB 19:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The whole section on the evolution of IQ maybe off topic. IQ tests were only invented around 1906, any theory regarding IQ before 1906 is entirely speculative. if one wants to discuss ice ages and intelligence then we might as well discuss the evolution of homo sapiens. Muntuwandi 17:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:TITLE#Use_of_.22and.22
In my interpretation the use of the word "and" biases the way this subject is presented. zen master T 18:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
"it isn't controversial that there are intelligence differences between races." For sure ! This is of course highly controversial. Ericd
The issue is not the like/dislike of IQ test results, the issue is assuming IQ test results mean anything which is disputed. Given multiple disputes over a principle foundation of this "research" this subject should not be presented this way if neutral presentation is your goal. zen master T 17:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Would prehaps "The distribution of specific genes related to intelligence among the human races" be a better... no, lets just stick with race and intelligence. 84.68.62.89 20:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I seen that MoritzB changed the European to 102 (German) an then to high as 112 (Jewish). It seems wrong since the IQ is the average European IQ, not the range of IQ scores between different ethnic groups in Europe. But there are a lot of races in Europe. "Race" is ambiguous and not well-defined, so some European "races" have an average IQ of 160. We could go on and on and include average IQs of European cities, European families, European people.
Greece, which is still in Europe has an IQ of 92 and some East Asian tribes have an average IQ of 70. Including the average IQ of Europe, East Asia, etc. is the most rational decision. Shinzuru2 17:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
My question is whether the ambiguity is enough to be statistically significant. There is certainly some difference in how people would classify the race of a given individual. Let's say this affects 1% (just off the cuff) of all people and for the remaining 99% of people everyone would agree on the race. In that case, the fact that race may be a little vague doesn't matter. That's perhaps "original research" on my part, I'm just trying to get a grasp on how much it would matter to the numbers we have. Is there any amount of re-interpretation that would dramatically change these numbers? And aren't we just reporting what a wide array of studies have found and letting the reader decide how useful that information is? Lots of widely cited statistics from many sources report race. Barring some directly useful expert citation that questions the material we have, cramming the political agenda of questioning the very concept of race into this article seems out of place. And I don't think any ambiguity has substantially impacted these numbers. Koreans are Koreans, Ashkenazi Jews are what they are, and blacks, well whether they are blacks in africa or blacks in america, we all know what these people look like well enough to interpret the statistics and have a pretty good idea of how they were measured. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 08:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The tag was added long ago and the article has almost totally changed now. It is now an obsolete relic of past disputes.
I have removed the tag and it should not not be added again without a long, thorough discussion.
The mere controversial nature of the topic is not adequate justification for the tag. Cf. Global Warming MoritzB 11:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
This article continues to be disputed. If it were not so, why has MortizB reverted three times every edit in the last 24 hours. Skywriter 11:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Due to recent edit wars I have restored the tag. There are POV problems in the intro and several sections.
Brusegadi 20:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick question. Is there a tag designed specifically for biased trash? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.57.200.105 (
talk) 07:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
It isn't controversial what the average IQ scores of different ethnic/racial groups are. The only dispute is about the cause of the difference. Therefore, the reference to Rushton and Jensen Skywriter added to the intro was removed. MoritzB 21:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
It is your tiny minority opinion that what Rushton and Jensen claim is not controversial. Skywriter 21:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I am surprised this last post went unchallenged for such a long period of time. I am sorry to say but claiming that scientists are "(rightly) afraid people will brand them racists, demand they be fired, try to cut off their funding, and the black community in general will throw a hissy fit" as a support for a statement such as "it seems likely that additionally there is a genetic component to intelligence" is a terribly ineffective way to make such claims. I do not know that there is any likelihood of a genetic component that has been properly established at all--and without some kind of legitimate source supporting your view it seems to be quite incorrect. In fact, from what I understand (and, admittedly, I do not intend to support this statement at the time) the view that genes create a significant difference in intelligence across "races" is most definitely controversial. As a note, I will say that this controversy stems in part from several different issues, most notably being: 1) the questionable ability of IQ scores to demonstrate an accurate representation of intelligence (IQ scores being the primary method of comparison for such arguments--this I hope we all can agree upon at least); 2) the fact that correlation does not demonstrate causation (correlation being the only way that IQ scores may be used to demonstrate differences between groups); and 3) the interaction between environment and genes (something that--although I am sure some may still argue--most definitely is widely considered to exist) and the fact that this interaction, by definition, must (at least to a certain extent) confound the effect of genes, thus limiting any inferences that can be made from data collected on this subject.
Oh, and please--although I am sure you won't get my response a month and a half later--stop defending the validity of arguments with terms like "hissy fit."
Frank0570618 02:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
Only the opinions of those scientists who deny the legitimacy of research on race and intelligence are represented in these sections. Thus, they strongly violate WP:NPOV. The article "scientific racism" is just a POV fork. WP:POVFORK. MoritzB 16:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The communists are again censoring Wikipedia. Rushton's views of history must be in the main text, not in a footnote. Franz V 17:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Rushton's views MUST be included in the main text, if only to point out the obvious flaws in his work. It is unfortunate for anyone quoting the man, but you really should find more sources if you intend to argue in favour of his ideas. Believe me, at any academic conference, quoting the scientific researchers who represent the outermost extremity of the field is more likely to get you laughed out of the room than a standing ovation. Perhaps Wikipedia should try and avoid some well due humiliation in this case.
131.104.235.213 22:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
Contrary to the protestations of Franz V, who is concerned about communism and capitalism, which is off-topic to this article, he also complains that his favorite racist academic is not mentioned often and prominently enough.
Here are the facts--Rushton is mentioned 20 times in this article. His sometimes co-author Jensen is also mentioned 20 times. And, Richard Lynn is named 18 times, and Gottfredson 13 times. That hardly seems like censorship of the pro-racist viewpoint. In fact, their viewpoint is so grossly over-represented, I intend to again slap a disputed tag on this page because it favors racist viewpoints and tends to downplay or exclude anti-racist views.
Now comes Rushton enthusiasts insisting that Rushton's off-topic, throw-away lines be included in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic article. Christopher Columbus had much to say about the indigenous people of the western hemisphere (before enslaving and/or slaughtering them) and Napolean had much to say about the people of Egypt before he tried and failed to conquer them. Germans had much to say about Jews, and the French have much to say about the English and vice versa. The Protestant Irish have their opinions of Catholic Irish. The Japanese had definite views of the Chinese before the Rape of Nanking. Should all of those opinions be larded into this article? If Rushton's throw-away lines are included either in this article or in two(!) footnotes, then this article should become a free-for-all about what all of the various ethnic groups allege about those they dislike (or revere) the most.
Rushton is not a historian. His comments on Marco Polo etc. are off topic. Please defend why two quotes from Race, Evolution, and Behavior is not off-topic to this article on Race and Intelligence, and should not be removed. Please explain also the exact link between nudity and paganism, which is not explained in this off-topic quote. Skywriter 18:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
A logical fallacy, a non sequitur. In other words, you skipprf a beat and failed to respond to the questions. You persuade no one that text should be there because it is there. Where are Rushton's proofs to his claim that Africans were of low intelligence during that era? Where is the scholarship? Further, what is the connection to nudity and paganism? Are nudity and paganism race and or intelligence-based? Again, I ask, why is this off-topic material doing in this article? Skywriter 18:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
"The Japanese are a happy race, and being content with little, are not likely to achieve much." -a Western Observer in 1881
"To see your men [Japanese] at work made me feel that you are a very satisfied easy goin race, who reckon time is no object. When I spoke to some managers they informed me that it was simply impossible to change the habits of national heritage." -western observer in 1915
From Landes, Davis S. 1998. The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: Why Some are Rich and Some So Poor. New York: W. W. Norton. p350
This a great example of observer bias. That is why I think that even mentioning the views of early Europeans would be undue weight. It is known that observe bias can cause judgment problems; that is why the effectiveness of new medicines is judged using a control group...
Brusegadi 19:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
MoritzBigot shouldn't have so much to say on this issue. Then again, POV does allow one to talk far more than one should. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
131.104.235.213 (
talk) 22:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
That section is offtopic and should be deleted. It has nothing to do with race. Add it to a separate article about prejudice and IQ if you wish. MoritzB 19:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
On a more general note, I feel that this article is not properly framed. When I first read it I did not care too much about it because I was under the impression that its title was "Race and IQ." Yet, since it is intelligence and not IQ, much work has to be done since there are obvious POV problems. I think the mainstream view is that there is really no good proxy for intelligence given that the latter can manifest itself in so many different ways. Finally, if some of the papers speak of a connection between genes and intelligence; these genetic components may not be correlated with race. It must be quoted explicitly. Besides the problems with undue weight, we must also look out for WP:SYN. Brusegadi 21:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
MoritzB 20:56, 26 August 2007 (UTC) wrote:
No such thing "has been established". I note your use of the passive voice to avoid identifying the source of your claim. Passive voice has long been the purview of rogues and scoundrels...mistakes were made; others will be blamed.
I have twice asked you to show the sourcing for the claim of your boy Rushton that nudity and paganism is unique to Black Africans. And twice you have ignored the request. This is the third and final request to back up the provably false allegation. It is NOT acceptable to hide behind the skirt of "opinion" in the history section. History is made up of facts. Anyone can state opinion and that does not translate into inclusion in an encyclopedic article. Anyone can express opinion on subjects about which they know nothing. Shockley got into trouble for crossing over into a field where he lacked expertise. If you and Rushton lack facts to back up Rushton's contention, that section comes out. Stop wasting our time. Skywriter 22:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this article needs to be protected, at least not for a long period. The only editor who is advocating removal of information is MoritzB. All the other editors have accepted the inclusion of the information that MoritzB has included even though some of it is really of very poor quality (eg evolution of IQ ) and is outside of the mainstream. But MoritzB is not being fair in accepting other information from other editors. Muntuwandi 22:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
this is the actual statement:
This is a hypothetical situation, only if IQ genes float randomly. Muntuwandi 23:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Muntuwandi 00:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I will try to look for more recent data on IQs. We may also look into other proxies. Brusegadi 03:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Muntuwandi, this is false; IQ is measuring something different than what you think. It is measuring something very closely related to how efficiently your brain works - IQ scores often directly correlate with reaction time. Whites and asians have on average much faster and larger brains than sub-saharan africans. They have faster reaction time too - I forget the exact numbers but as I remember this is a significant one. This is not about "nerds" it is about regular people who may be a little quicker at figuring some things out in daily life. Caucasian and asian women have high IQs (same as males as far as I know) but their brains are definitely differently structured than men and they are accomplishing it in a somewhat different manner - at any rate, brain size isn't the only factor but that is a significant part of explaining why these groups with larger brains have uniformly higher iq, better reaction time, and a history of accomplishment. It doesn't take a scientist to observe this difference between the races. The practical implications of these facts are for the reader to decide (and please keep your political propaganda out), but the basic facts are pretty cut and dry. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 03:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Einstein was one man who was good at certain things. What we are trying to look at is the average people in whole populations, not what features an exceptional person has. The question for this article is about whole races and ethnic groups. There are many smart people with average size brains, however on average it does seem to offer some benefit at both the individual and ethnic level. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 04:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Please remember WP:SOAP. Lets get serious or move it to user space. Brusegadi 05:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
No one will change their minds with this pointless arguing. We have to understand that all of us have already made up our minds about this. It seems that right now we are trying to argue with each other as oppose to for the improvement of the article. The truth is that nothing will change in the next few days because the article is protected. So, lets try to cool off and focus on specific things that we would like changed, removed, or added. Lets try to produce something that is good enough so that people from the outside will take it seriously. If any of us pushes their own POV beyond its due weight, the article will be a joke to outsiders. Brusegadi 04:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Although selective pressure in favor of smaller brain volumes might seem counterintuitive, it is relevant to note that the fossil record suggests that brain size in humans has decreased over the past 50 000 years, with the trend continuing through the Neolithic, reversing more recently only at higher latitudes [5] Muntuwandi 14:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Even the Cro-Magnons the first Europeans had cranial capacities greater than modern Europeans [6]. Muntuwandi 14:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The point is that during the period of the greatest technological developments, brain size has been smaller. Neolithic and iron age brains are smaller than paleolithic brains. The brain size of modern europeans is smaller than their ancestors the cro-magnons. consequently it seems that there are so many other factors involved in intelligence than cranial capacity alone. Muntuwandi 15:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Muntuwandi's first comment on this page is enough to end the discussion on cranial capacity. Also, I do not think it is worth getting into human evolution. It is clear that whatever genetic variation there is among humans, all humans belong to the same species and have the same general intelligence that distinguishes humans from other species. I am not even sure it is worth noting that the neolithic revolution accured independently in different continents - for one thing (personal opinion coming up) I think that the paleolithic itself is what really distinguishes humans from non-humans. Second, it doesn't really matter who invented something if other people can use it. This is the whole point of human intelligence - our ability to teach and learn from one another. Even if agriculture was invented independently in Asia, whoever invented it taught it to others. Even if it were invented in Europe, most Europeans learned it from others. If one person can teach another calculus or quantum mechanics, does it mater which one is from Africa and which one is from Europe? They both must be pretty damn smart! Slrubenstein | Talk 16:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
You do not understand what I am talking about. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Not quite, but you are on the right track. I would not say humans are more intelligent than animals only because I don't think that kind of statement is very meaningful in evolutionary terms - I would say that humans have evolved a fundamentally different kind of intellegence than animals, and that absent congenital birth defects or trauma to the brain all humans have this kind of intelligence that distinguishes us from other species. I do not think that this means that all humans express equal intelligence, I am not fundamentally opposed to attempts to measure intelligence, and I think that discussions attempting to understand differences in expressions of human intelligence among individuals can be valuable. I only meant that since all humans have the same kind of intelligence in the sense that we evolved a kind of evolution distinct from other species, I do not think that there is any point in getting into how that intelligence evolved in this article. In other words, I would see a value in an article on the evolution of human intelligence, "human intelligence" in this context meaning something shared by all humans and distinct from the kinds of intelligence found in other species. And I see a value in an article reviewing debates over variations within "human intelligence, variations in measures of intelligence among humans. My point is: I think these are two different articles, two different topics, and we would progress further if we didn't get bogged down in one while working on the other. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, yes yes, Raqmdrake, with all due respect, so you and Muntuwandi both know what you are talking about. Genug, basta, makatei, move on. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the development of human intelligence: Human intelligence is tied in some manner to the large increase in brain size going up the human evolutionary tree. When the encephalization quotient (EQ) is used to measure brain size relative to body size, modern humans are three times as encephalized (EQ = 6) as other primates (EQ = 2) and six times the average for all living mammals (EQ = 1, the reference group). This phylogenetic increase represents a disproportionate expansion of the brain’s prefrontal cortext, which matures last and is most essential for the highest cognitive functions, including weighing alternatives, planning, understanding the temporal order of events (and thus cause-and-effect relations), and making decisions. Moreover, encephalization of the human line proceeded rather quickly, in evolutionary terms, after the first hominids (Australopithicines, EQ = 3) split off from their common ancestor with chimpanzees (EQ = 2) about 5 million years ago. Encephalization was especially rapid during the last 500,000 to one million years, when relative brain size increased from under EQ = 4 for Homo erectus (arguably the first species of Homo) to about EQ = 6 for living humans (the only surviving subspecies of Homo sapiens). (Gottfredson: Innovation, Fatal Accidents, and the Evolution of General Intelligence) MoritzB 18:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I think it's rather intellectualy dishonest to constantly push africans off as, er, "retarded" in face of things like this:
http://www.thecoupmagazine.com/content/view/45/47/
"Another difference that commentators writing on the study noted, though that was not explicitly stated in the study, involves work ethic. As a direct result of pressure to succeed, many black immigrants, much like immigrants from other nations, outperform their American peers. According to U.S. census data from 2000, “black immigrants from Africa averaged the highest educational attainment of any population group in the country,” with 43.8% of African immigrants having attained a degree at an institution of higher learning in comparison to 42.5% of Asian-Americans, 28.9% of immigrants from Europe and Canada, and 23.1 of the entire U.S. population (Page, "Black Immigrants Collect"). In addition, black immigrants make up 40% of the black student population enrolled in Ivy League education institutions, while they only comprise 13 percent of the black population in the United States as a whole (Wu, "Immigrants Comprise"). "
Bare in mind that immigrants don't get affirmative action. If the average african IQ were that low, or even somewhere in the 70's, people like this would be rare to non-existant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.136.64 ( talk) 22:24, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
My point was that, on the topic of african IQ, it's fallacious to constantly assert that the IQ of 70 figure is the reality of it all when the sheer abundance of high IQ africans living abroad couldn't possibly exist considering averages at such extremities. Malnutrition, cultural differences, and the fact that many african universities have very poor standards (yes, I've read Lynn's work, he lists studies of low IQ groups from universities) also are a problem for this to be taken seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.136.64 ( talk) 04:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
since the page is locked, and i cant edit, i think it should be added that a big percent (if not most of them) of the world chess champions were also Ashkenazi Jews —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.3.91 ( talk) 01:04, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
In the section "Race as a social construct" it is stated that "[i]n contemporary North American society, Blacks and coloreds are considered to be one 'race,' since any individual who possess any degree of nonwhiteness is automatically grouped in the Black category". However, if you are, say, of South Asian descent in some way, you do possess "some degree of nonwhiteness", yet you're not classified as Black or African-American. This should be corrected to read "... possesses any degree of black African ancestry..." Victor Chmara 11:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
What exactly is it that's in such dispute so as to cause this article's protection status? W.M. O'Quinlan 20:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
why does this article need to mention both? and why are people so desperate to prove that those of african descent really are the 'dumbest' people on earth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.80.90 ( talk) 04:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
What happned to this section? Media portrayal of race and intelligence ? futurebird 17:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Brain size reflects not only genetics, but also the degree to which one is exposed to cognitive stimulation. The correlation between brain size and intelligence might result from people who are interested in intelligent stuff growing bigger brains as they learn. Every major meta-analysis of the brain size intelligence correlation has noted this. Why doesn't the article? Specifically, I'm talking about the section on evolution/ice ages. Thanks, -- 156.56.151.76 01:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Also, it should be noted that brain size is not a definitive measure of intelligence in any sense (see blue whales/Einstein, if you must). As well, I believe that it was stated there is supposedly a 0.40 level of positive correlation between cranial capacity and IQ scores--this does not seem to be a particularly objective observation without including the fact that, again, IQ is not a completely accurate measure of intelligence itself, and correlation is not a valid method for correctly demonstrating why there is a relationship between a given pair of variables.
Frank0570618 02:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
According to Fox News "one of the world's most eminent scientists has created a racial firestorm in Britain" when he commented that blacks are less intelligent than whites. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302836,00.html
Watson writes in his book that "there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically". Nobody should question his expertise on evolutionary theory.
Such public attention has not been focused on the issue since the publication of Bell Curve. Ramdrake claims that Watson's views cannot be included to this article because "he is not an expert on intelligence". Nobody
However, Watson's comments are relevant simply because they caused much public debate on race and intelligence and prominent public figures (like Keith Vaz commented on the controversy. There are demands that Watson should be prosecuted.
This articles does not focus only on the scientific debate but also the public debate. Watson's views are notable ( WP:NOTE) in the public debate and reported by numerous reliable sources.
British news stories about the "scandal":
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article2630748.ece http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=488026&in_page_id=1770 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/17/nwatson217.xml
MoritzB 13:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Watson's statement belong to his page, but not here. He is not an expert on the topic at hand. How controversial a statement is in not the proper criterion for inclusion in this article, the proper criterion for inclusion is the academic relevance and significance of the material to be included. Thus, the Bell curve was a book. As flawed as it may be, it deserves inclusion because it attempted to draw from studies and other stuff. Watson's opinion is just an opinion so no need to put it here. When he says it in the context of a prp or book, then maybe then. Brusegadi 00:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
"We do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things," he is quoted as saying. "The overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity."
"It may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7052416.stm MoritzB 16:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe it is a reasonable assumption that the ancestors of all people in the world today looked similar in the distant past, in the same way that people of the same race look similar today. Those ancestors became geographically separated and evolved into different races. It would be surprising if the only differences that evolved between those races were those apparent to the eye. However, our public policies and current standards of political correctness compel us to say if not believe that the only differences are those noticeable by sight and perhaps a predisposition towards certain health problems. Unfortunately, misguided public policy meant to benefit a certain sector of society costs taxpayer dollars and can even have a negative effect on other sectors of society. Public policy must take into account the inconvenient truths of the real world, not a politically correct fantasy world. -- Jagz 17:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
"Cavalli himself has made significant contributions to the fight against racism. On several occasions he publicly debated Arthur Jensen and William Shockley arguing that environmental factors could explain the black white IQ gap."
This information does not relate to the evolutionary history of intelligence. It is misplaced and badly written. (What "fight against racism"???)
The chapter "prejudice and intelligence": "A study done at a university known for its conservative values in the south of the US was carried out in order to determine whether a relationship existed between prejudice and IQ. Students were given an IQ test and a test that measures racial prejudice. The study found that students who scored lower on IQ tests were more prejudiced"
This article is about race and intelligence, not prejudice and intelligence. The information is irrelevant and badly written. ("A university known for its conservative values"???)
MoritzB 18:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not an argument to keep reinserting crap into the article.-- Ramdrake 18:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Please explain why Cavalli-Sforza's "fight against racism" is relevant in this article. Furthermore, explain why possible correlation between some psychological trait (prejudice) and intelligence should be relevant in this article which is about race and intelligence. MoritzB 20:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this article does not seem to appropriately demonstrate an overall objective viewpoint. What I mean by this statement does not refer to the fact that issues mentioned are controversial. In fact, the lack of objectivity stems directly from the direction that this article follows when providing information. It seems apparent that the first sign of trouble comes immediately after reading the title. As this article itself admits (and I must apologize, but I do not intend to cite the specific reference within this article), there is a level of ambiguity involved with a concept such as "race". It appears to me that if such a concept is in dispute it should be relegated to a subsection of such an article, allowing for a title that actually describes what the article intends to discuss. Moreover, there is a need to distinguish this last, as the article appears to jointly describe how "genes influence intelligence" and "current racial controversies", a pair of topics that should not be displayed directly within the same section.
Frank0570618 02:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
This article needs to have a proper description of how evolutionary factors would affect intelligence over a short period of time (i.e. 65 000 years). In the discussion of "the evolutionary history of IQ" there are several scientific facts that have been overlooked with regard to evolutionary theory. For example, the claim that there would be any change in IQ from generation to generation is as close to Lamarkian reasoning as I have ever seen. This is very nearly done by the source cited (who, matter of fact, has a background in chemistry) to be arguing in favour of genetic variations in intelligence since the exist of humans from Africa. Specifically, the statement that the only variation needed would be 0.004 per generation can only be seen to be relevant if it is assumed that there will be genetic variability BETWEEN generations. Otherwise, it must simply be stated that there would need to be a change of 12 IQ points (IQ being a relative scale by the way, which I am sure environmental factors would have a dramatically greater influence on than genetic factors would--i.e. if you were to give an IQ test to a person 60 000 years ago, they would most certainly not score within an average range of today's values) over 65 000 years. As well it must be mentioned that the idea it is possible to accurately quantitatively measure the value of change in intelligence (a variable that must be acted upon by thousands of factors) is somewhat simplistic.
Frank0570618 03:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
Why on earth does Wikipedia have ten articles on this topic, when it is unquestionably fringe science at best? Such vast coverage seems to confer an implicit authority on the topic, and so represents a kind of undue weight; where are the series of articles arguing the mainstream view that (i) 'race' is highly dubious as a scientific concept, (ii) 'intelligence' is almost as contentious (and extremely difficult to measure), and (iii) even if they are serious concepts, a link between the two has yet to be conclusively proven. If this is science at all (as opposed to psuedoscience), it is not an area that any significant number of biologists are concerned with - and rightly so, given how the main publishers and readers of this 'research' seem to be unapologetic racists.
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that these articles were created by POV-pushers, and while I appreciate the efforts of more reasonable editors to keep them neutral, the mere existence of so many articles on this topic is inherently non-neutral. I would suggest that at least some of them be deleted, and this material be cut down to a shorter length to more accurately represent the (lack of) scientific validity of the subject matter. Terraxos 17:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Most of the information in this area is deserving of a disclaimer. Basically, a large portion of this stuff is statistically weak when placed into the context that these sorts of articles describe. As well, the conclusions that are being drawn from much of this research are considerably too close to pseudo-science. Personally, freedom of information should be paramount to something like Wikipedia, but the improper censoring shown in this kind of article really hurt such a cause.
24.57.200.105 07:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
I thought an accurate description of the matter may be a chart that uses people of exactly the same education and the same numbers of people for each group. That kind of education would better be higher. Ideally, a masters degree or higher required (to avoid cheeply gotten lower school degrees). Is there such a chart? -- Leladax 20:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
ps. i've seen many iq tests, most are obviously rewarding education. some even have geography questions for heaven's sake. i suspect law graduates score lower than lower level physics or math degrees for not being in contact with math at all. -- Leladax 20:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC) pps. maybe someone should try a chart of math students of masters level. -- Leladax 20:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
James D. Watson, co-discoverer of the structure of DNA and Nobel laureate, writes in his 2007 book, "Avoid Boring People: Lessons From a Life in Science":
"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically". "Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
-- Jagz 06:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Although ironic, it is not necessarily overly surprising that a "father" of the double helix might be very wrong about the functioning of evolutionary theory and genetics. Lacking complete and definite proof of something does not make it untrue. On the other hand, making claims that are both unproven and somewhat fat-fetched under the name of science without necessarily finding any proof is most definitely worthy of shame. Dr. Watson has rightfully lost any sense of credibility he may have once had due to his involvement of such activity. Our wanting to eliminate bigotry as a form of expression within a society supposedly based on equality will not be enough to make it so--but, hopefully the effort itself may be more than a worthwhile expenditure of time.
24.57.200.105 07:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
131.104.235.213 22:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
131.104.235.213 23:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
131.104.235.213 00:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
This article is a shame for wikipedia. Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence Intelligence is hard to define (see par. on "definition", "Other definitions"). It is clearly not the same as IQ tests.
Likewise, please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race#20th-_and_21st-Century_debates_over_race Nobody agrees on what is or is not "human race".
This article seems to be about some comparison between IQ tests and human color skins. Either this article should be removed or its title changed. Herve661 18:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
P.S. It would be advisable to make sure concepts such as evolution are not mucked up too much.
131.104.235.213 23:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
This should not be in this article. It's an original synthesis of sources and highly misleading. This article is on race and intelligence, not just race and IQ test scores. Richard Herrnstein, Charles Murray, Gottfredson and Richard Lynn are all controversial figures and Flynn's numbers are taken out of context. (His point was to show how IQ changed over time) The overall impression this table gives is that these numbers are accurate reflections of the intelligences of people from various parts of the world, rather than IQ test scores, that are in some cases based on speculation rather than actual tests. (Especially Richard Lynn's numbers.)
We have had this debate before. and that is why the numbers were moved out of the main article. We decided that they were not main-stream enough to be included here. Nothing has changed. The entire section needs to go. futurebird 05:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Sociologist Thomas Volken said that data fromIQ and the Wealth of Nations are "highly deficient," citing limited sampling and varying tests and years. link In a 1995 review of The Bell Curve, Leon Kamin wrotes that "Lynn's distortions and misrepresentations of the data constitute a truly venomous racism, combined with scandalous disregard for scientific objectivity." These data are exactly main-stream or widely accepted, if you ask me.
And once again, this particular synthesis is novel and possibly original research. futurebird 14:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Rushton and Jensen are just two guys... but, hundreds of researchers have worked on this question. I think outlining 10 points' in support of their theory alone is over-kill. Environmental explanations are only briefly mentioned in the last paragraph of this section, even though they are what main-stream scientists support most often and the most fruitful areas of research. (We can show the socio economic factors and racism have a direct impact on test scores, the gentic explination is only based on data anaysis.) If you look at Race and intelligence (Explanations) you'll see that the bulk of the information in that article is describing environmental explanations. This article should follow a similar pattern.
The explanations section comes across is if it is trying to make a point and show that Rushton and Jensen have a valid theory. That's NPOV and undue weight. futurebird 12:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Rushton and Jensen's work is considered controversial. They even admits as much themselves.
"Also in the 1990s, Phillipe Rushton has tried to couch racial differences in IQ in a theory drawn from evolutionary biology. This theory takes the concepts of r and K selection, crudely useful when applied to a vast range of living creatures considered on a continuum, and apply it to subtle differences in skull form, mental test results, and sexual behavior within our one species. This theory has no academic legitimacy and little relationship to real evolutionary theory, but it taints the whole Darwinian enterprise, strongly recalling the “scientific anthropology” of the era of slavery." "The reality is quite different. As argued by George Armelagos in his Presidential Address to the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (“Race, Reason and Rationale,” Evolutionary Anthropology 4, 1995, pp. 103–109) race itself is a dubious concept for the human species. Obviously it is sociologically meaningful, but even in the social realm it is a constantly moving target with little or no core biological legitimacy." link
The author presents a discussion of certain portions of Arthur Jensen's controversial article. The general conclusion is that Jensen has not provided substantial evidence that there are differences in neural structure among children from different social or ethnic groups which are genetically determined. The reviewer reacts to Jensen's conclusion "that schools and society must provide a range and diversity of educational methods, programs and goals, and occupational opportunities, just as wide as the range of human abilities." While the reviewer finds no objection to this general statement, he feels that the premise upon which it is built is rather flimsy because of the implication that individuals of different backgrounds are genetically different. A Critique of Jensen's Article: How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement? Sanua, Victor D.
"some of Rushton's references to scientific literature with respects to racial differences in sexual characteristics turned out to be references to a nonscientific semipornographic book and to an article in the Penthouse Forum." ^ On the similarities of American blacks and whites: A reply to J.P. Rushton, by Zack Cernovsky, Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 25 (July 1, 1995), p. 672.
If you go to "eugenics.net" you'll see that only they put the word controversial in quotes when talking about Jensen. I think that they are the only people who would dispute the idea that his work is controversial.
Their work is only accepted by a small minority of scientists and a handful of self avowed racists. Even if you don't agree with any of this criticism there is so much of it that it's a little silly to call Rushton and Jensen's work "main-stream."
futurebird 14:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
131.104.235.213 01:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
I would also like to point out to Moritz, after glancing at the article that he sourced above, that the idea that there is a distinction between environmental and genetic impacts on behaviour/intelligence/etc is a misconception. Within the last decade at the very least, this idea has been widely discredited because it is not only too narrow, but it completely ignores very apparent interactions between the two. Statistically speaking, if these two variables interact in all situations, there is NO possible way to correlate one of the variables with something else (such as intelligence) because they will most certainly be confounded. The main issue with intelligence and race arguments is that they are simply another method attempting to support the "race concept"--a concept that has failed in most relevant areas because it is not consistent with evolutionary theory. Why we need to support another concept that will evoke racism is beyond me. Do the research that is fine. Publish your findings and make conclusions (no matter how far fetched), I support it fully--this is the essence of science. But stop writing the biased, unsubstantiated crap that is out there for everyone to see. Propaganda is anything but a necessary evil for supporting views that are considered to be controversial.
131.104.235.213 01:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
The consensus among intelligence researchers is that IQ differences between individuals of the same race reflect (1) real, (2) functionally/socially significant, and (3) substantial differences in the general intelligence factor. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
This sentences is misleading because it makes it seem like all of those footnotes are in some way supporting Rushton and Jensen's idea about race and intelligence. This sentence is about genetics and intelligence not race... as are the sources that support it. Can we remove some of the sources from this sentence so there are only the two best ones? When I see this many footnotes I assume someone has an ax to grind... also it looks a little silly. futurebird 12:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Ben, could you implement this rewording? It would be a start. futurebird 13:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we should only include valid sources? I looked over these, and only one refers to a paper actually published in an academic journal. Moreover, all of the "articles" are from online newspapers (the exception is a book review...I'll leave others to make their own conclusions about this) that quite obviously do not represent a consensus of the scientific community (of intelligence researchers). Please, I know Wikipedia isn't supposed to be some kind of peer-reviewed, academic journal, but if you intend to create an encyclopaedic entry, you must actually use information that is valid. And yes, this criticism is in addition to the fact that support for the statement listed above is not presented in these sources--thankfully, this has already been mentioned several times.
Just to make the point clear this particular set of citations (and I know as a fact there are many similar ones) reminds me of how I used to get sources for my papers in grade school. I would create claims about what I believed, read information in a related area and cite those sources that were closest to the subject area that I was speaking about for a particular point. Luckily for me, my teachers didn't think it was as important that my information be correct as it was that I bother to make a reference list properly. I guess we all need to outgrow the habits we learned as twelve-year-olds--maybe it is time Wikipedia makes sure it does as well.
131.104.235.213 01:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 55 | ← | Archive 57 | Archive 58 | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | → | Archive 65 |
"For the vast majority of human evolution, Africa has been the region that produced new hominids with larger brains. For example fossils of early humans who lived between 2 and 5 million years ago come entirely from Africa. [1]During the period of human evolution brain size increased from 400cc to 1400cc [2]. On a number of occasions these hominids migrated out of Africa to Europe and Asia. These include homo erectus and the Neanderthals who evolved in Europe from a large brained hominid from Africa. Though living in the colder regions, the Neanderthals and homo erectus would later be displaced by technologically more advanced immigrants from the warmer regions of Africa, the such as the African Cro-Magnon."
This article is about the evolutionary history of intelligence in the races of Homo sapiens sapiens. Other species are irrelevant.
MoritzB 19:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
The whole section on the evolution of IQ maybe off topic. IQ tests were only invented around 1906, any theory regarding IQ before 1906 is entirely speculative. if one wants to discuss ice ages and intelligence then we might as well discuss the evolution of homo sapiens. Muntuwandi 17:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:TITLE#Use_of_.22and.22
In my interpretation the use of the word "and" biases the way this subject is presented. zen master T 18:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
"it isn't controversial that there are intelligence differences between races." For sure ! This is of course highly controversial. Ericd
The issue is not the like/dislike of IQ test results, the issue is assuming IQ test results mean anything which is disputed. Given multiple disputes over a principle foundation of this "research" this subject should not be presented this way if neutral presentation is your goal. zen master T 17:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Would prehaps "The distribution of specific genes related to intelligence among the human races" be a better... no, lets just stick with race and intelligence. 84.68.62.89 20:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I seen that MoritzB changed the European to 102 (German) an then to high as 112 (Jewish). It seems wrong since the IQ is the average European IQ, not the range of IQ scores between different ethnic groups in Europe. But there are a lot of races in Europe. "Race" is ambiguous and not well-defined, so some European "races" have an average IQ of 160. We could go on and on and include average IQs of European cities, European families, European people.
Greece, which is still in Europe has an IQ of 92 and some East Asian tribes have an average IQ of 70. Including the average IQ of Europe, East Asia, etc. is the most rational decision. Shinzuru2 17:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
My question is whether the ambiguity is enough to be statistically significant. There is certainly some difference in how people would classify the race of a given individual. Let's say this affects 1% (just off the cuff) of all people and for the remaining 99% of people everyone would agree on the race. In that case, the fact that race may be a little vague doesn't matter. That's perhaps "original research" on my part, I'm just trying to get a grasp on how much it would matter to the numbers we have. Is there any amount of re-interpretation that would dramatically change these numbers? And aren't we just reporting what a wide array of studies have found and letting the reader decide how useful that information is? Lots of widely cited statistics from many sources report race. Barring some directly useful expert citation that questions the material we have, cramming the political agenda of questioning the very concept of race into this article seems out of place. And I don't think any ambiguity has substantially impacted these numbers. Koreans are Koreans, Ashkenazi Jews are what they are, and blacks, well whether they are blacks in africa or blacks in america, we all know what these people look like well enough to interpret the statistics and have a pretty good idea of how they were measured. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 08:08, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
The tag was added long ago and the article has almost totally changed now. It is now an obsolete relic of past disputes.
I have removed the tag and it should not not be added again without a long, thorough discussion.
The mere controversial nature of the topic is not adequate justification for the tag. Cf. Global Warming MoritzB 11:03, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
This article continues to be disputed. If it were not so, why has MortizB reverted three times every edit in the last 24 hours. Skywriter 11:54, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Due to recent edit wars I have restored the tag. There are POV problems in the intro and several sections.
Brusegadi 20:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick question. Is there a tag designed specifically for biased trash? —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.57.200.105 (
talk) 07:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
It isn't controversial what the average IQ scores of different ethnic/racial groups are. The only dispute is about the cause of the difference. Therefore, the reference to Rushton and Jensen Skywriter added to the intro was removed. MoritzB 21:32, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
It is your tiny minority opinion that what Rushton and Jensen claim is not controversial. Skywriter 21:39, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I am surprised this last post went unchallenged for such a long period of time. I am sorry to say but claiming that scientists are "(rightly) afraid people will brand them racists, demand they be fired, try to cut off their funding, and the black community in general will throw a hissy fit" as a support for a statement such as "it seems likely that additionally there is a genetic component to intelligence" is a terribly ineffective way to make such claims. I do not know that there is any likelihood of a genetic component that has been properly established at all--and without some kind of legitimate source supporting your view it seems to be quite incorrect. In fact, from what I understand (and, admittedly, I do not intend to support this statement at the time) the view that genes create a significant difference in intelligence across "races" is most definitely controversial. As a note, I will say that this controversy stems in part from several different issues, most notably being: 1) the questionable ability of IQ scores to demonstrate an accurate representation of intelligence (IQ scores being the primary method of comparison for such arguments--this I hope we all can agree upon at least); 2) the fact that correlation does not demonstrate causation (correlation being the only way that IQ scores may be used to demonstrate differences between groups); and 3) the interaction between environment and genes (something that--although I am sure some may still argue--most definitely is widely considered to exist) and the fact that this interaction, by definition, must (at least to a certain extent) confound the effect of genes, thus limiting any inferences that can be made from data collected on this subject.
Oh, and please--although I am sure you won't get my response a month and a half later--stop defending the validity of arguments with terms like "hissy fit."
Frank0570618 02:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
Only the opinions of those scientists who deny the legitimacy of research on race and intelligence are represented in these sections. Thus, they strongly violate WP:NPOV. The article "scientific racism" is just a POV fork. WP:POVFORK. MoritzB 16:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
The communists are again censoring Wikipedia. Rushton's views of history must be in the main text, not in a footnote. Franz V 17:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Rushton's views MUST be included in the main text, if only to point out the obvious flaws in his work. It is unfortunate for anyone quoting the man, but you really should find more sources if you intend to argue in favour of his ideas. Believe me, at any academic conference, quoting the scientific researchers who represent the outermost extremity of the field is more likely to get you laughed out of the room than a standing ovation. Perhaps Wikipedia should try and avoid some well due humiliation in this case.
131.104.235.213 22:04, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
Contrary to the protestations of Franz V, who is concerned about communism and capitalism, which is off-topic to this article, he also complains that his favorite racist academic is not mentioned often and prominently enough.
Here are the facts--Rushton is mentioned 20 times in this article. His sometimes co-author Jensen is also mentioned 20 times. And, Richard Lynn is named 18 times, and Gottfredson 13 times. That hardly seems like censorship of the pro-racist viewpoint. In fact, their viewpoint is so grossly over-represented, I intend to again slap a disputed tag on this page because it favors racist viewpoints and tends to downplay or exclude anti-racist views.
Now comes Rushton enthusiasts insisting that Rushton's off-topic, throw-away lines be included in what is supposed to be an encyclopedic article. Christopher Columbus had much to say about the indigenous people of the western hemisphere (before enslaving and/or slaughtering them) and Napolean had much to say about the people of Egypt before he tried and failed to conquer them. Germans had much to say about Jews, and the French have much to say about the English and vice versa. The Protestant Irish have their opinions of Catholic Irish. The Japanese had definite views of the Chinese before the Rape of Nanking. Should all of those opinions be larded into this article? If Rushton's throw-away lines are included either in this article or in two(!) footnotes, then this article should become a free-for-all about what all of the various ethnic groups allege about those they dislike (or revere) the most.
Rushton is not a historian. His comments on Marco Polo etc. are off topic. Please defend why two quotes from Race, Evolution, and Behavior is not off-topic to this article on Race and Intelligence, and should not be removed. Please explain also the exact link between nudity and paganism, which is not explained in this off-topic quote. Skywriter 18:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
A logical fallacy, a non sequitur. In other words, you skipprf a beat and failed to respond to the questions. You persuade no one that text should be there because it is there. Where are Rushton's proofs to his claim that Africans were of low intelligence during that era? Where is the scholarship? Further, what is the connection to nudity and paganism? Are nudity and paganism race and or intelligence-based? Again, I ask, why is this off-topic material doing in this article? Skywriter 18:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
"The Japanese are a happy race, and being content with little, are not likely to achieve much." -a Western Observer in 1881
"To see your men [Japanese] at work made me feel that you are a very satisfied easy goin race, who reckon time is no object. When I spoke to some managers they informed me that it was simply impossible to change the habits of national heritage." -western observer in 1915
From Landes, Davis S. 1998. The Wealth and Poverty of Nations: Why Some are Rich and Some So Poor. New York: W. W. Norton. p350
This a great example of observer bias. That is why I think that even mentioning the views of early Europeans would be undue weight. It is known that observe bias can cause judgment problems; that is why the effectiveness of new medicines is judged using a control group...
Brusegadi 19:33, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
MoritzBigot shouldn't have so much to say on this issue. Then again, POV does allow one to talk far more than one should. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
131.104.235.213 (
talk) 22:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
That section is offtopic and should be deleted. It has nothing to do with race. Add it to a separate article about prejudice and IQ if you wish. MoritzB 19:48, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
On a more general note, I feel that this article is not properly framed. When I first read it I did not care too much about it because I was under the impression that its title was "Race and IQ." Yet, since it is intelligence and not IQ, much work has to be done since there are obvious POV problems. I think the mainstream view is that there is really no good proxy for intelligence given that the latter can manifest itself in so many different ways. Finally, if some of the papers speak of a connection between genes and intelligence; these genetic components may not be correlated with race. It must be quoted explicitly. Besides the problems with undue weight, we must also look out for WP:SYN. Brusegadi 21:02, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
MoritzB 20:56, 26 August 2007 (UTC) wrote:
No such thing "has been established". I note your use of the passive voice to avoid identifying the source of your claim. Passive voice has long been the purview of rogues and scoundrels...mistakes were made; others will be blamed.
I have twice asked you to show the sourcing for the claim of your boy Rushton that nudity and paganism is unique to Black Africans. And twice you have ignored the request. This is the third and final request to back up the provably false allegation. It is NOT acceptable to hide behind the skirt of "opinion" in the history section. History is made up of facts. Anyone can state opinion and that does not translate into inclusion in an encyclopedic article. Anyone can express opinion on subjects about which they know nothing. Shockley got into trouble for crossing over into a field where he lacked expertise. If you and Rushton lack facts to back up Rushton's contention, that section comes out. Stop wasting our time. Skywriter 22:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think this article needs to be protected, at least not for a long period. The only editor who is advocating removal of information is MoritzB. All the other editors have accepted the inclusion of the information that MoritzB has included even though some of it is really of very poor quality (eg evolution of IQ ) and is outside of the mainstream. But MoritzB is not being fair in accepting other information from other editors. Muntuwandi 22:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
this is the actual statement:
This is a hypothetical situation, only if IQ genes float randomly. Muntuwandi 23:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Muntuwandi 00:27, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I will try to look for more recent data on IQs. We may also look into other proxies. Brusegadi 03:06, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Muntuwandi, this is false; IQ is measuring something different than what you think. It is measuring something very closely related to how efficiently your brain works - IQ scores often directly correlate with reaction time. Whites and asians have on average much faster and larger brains than sub-saharan africans. They have faster reaction time too - I forget the exact numbers but as I remember this is a significant one. This is not about "nerds" it is about regular people who may be a little quicker at figuring some things out in daily life. Caucasian and asian women have high IQs (same as males as far as I know) but their brains are definitely differently structured than men and they are accomplishing it in a somewhat different manner - at any rate, brain size isn't the only factor but that is a significant part of explaining why these groups with larger brains have uniformly higher iq, better reaction time, and a history of accomplishment. It doesn't take a scientist to observe this difference between the races. The practical implications of these facts are for the reader to decide (and please keep your political propaganda out), but the basic facts are pretty cut and dry. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 03:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Einstein was one man who was good at certain things. What we are trying to look at is the average people in whole populations, not what features an exceptional person has. The question for this article is about whole races and ethnic groups. There are many smart people with average size brains, however on average it does seem to offer some benefit at both the individual and ethnic level. -- fourdee ᛇᚹᛟ 04:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Please remember WP:SOAP. Lets get serious or move it to user space. Brusegadi 05:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
No one will change their minds with this pointless arguing. We have to understand that all of us have already made up our minds about this. It seems that right now we are trying to argue with each other as oppose to for the improvement of the article. The truth is that nothing will change in the next few days because the article is protected. So, lets try to cool off and focus on specific things that we would like changed, removed, or added. Lets try to produce something that is good enough so that people from the outside will take it seriously. If any of us pushes their own POV beyond its due weight, the article will be a joke to outsiders. Brusegadi 04:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Although selective pressure in favor of smaller brain volumes might seem counterintuitive, it is relevant to note that the fossil record suggests that brain size in humans has decreased over the past 50 000 years, with the trend continuing through the Neolithic, reversing more recently only at higher latitudes [5] Muntuwandi 14:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Even the Cro-Magnons the first Europeans had cranial capacities greater than modern Europeans [6]. Muntuwandi 14:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The point is that during the period of the greatest technological developments, brain size has been smaller. Neolithic and iron age brains are smaller than paleolithic brains. The brain size of modern europeans is smaller than their ancestors the cro-magnons. consequently it seems that there are so many other factors involved in intelligence than cranial capacity alone. Muntuwandi 15:17, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Muntuwandi's first comment on this page is enough to end the discussion on cranial capacity. Also, I do not think it is worth getting into human evolution. It is clear that whatever genetic variation there is among humans, all humans belong to the same species and have the same general intelligence that distinguishes humans from other species. I am not even sure it is worth noting that the neolithic revolution accured independently in different continents - for one thing (personal opinion coming up) I think that the paleolithic itself is what really distinguishes humans from non-humans. Second, it doesn't really matter who invented something if other people can use it. This is the whole point of human intelligence - our ability to teach and learn from one another. Even if agriculture was invented independently in Asia, whoever invented it taught it to others. Even if it were invented in Europe, most Europeans learned it from others. If one person can teach another calculus or quantum mechanics, does it mater which one is from Africa and which one is from Europe? They both must be pretty damn smart! Slrubenstein | Talk 16:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
You do not understand what I am talking about. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Not quite, but you are on the right track. I would not say humans are more intelligent than animals only because I don't think that kind of statement is very meaningful in evolutionary terms - I would say that humans have evolved a fundamentally different kind of intellegence than animals, and that absent congenital birth defects or trauma to the brain all humans have this kind of intelligence that distinguishes us from other species. I do not think that this means that all humans express equal intelligence, I am not fundamentally opposed to attempts to measure intelligence, and I think that discussions attempting to understand differences in expressions of human intelligence among individuals can be valuable. I only meant that since all humans have the same kind of intelligence in the sense that we evolved a kind of evolution distinct from other species, I do not think that there is any point in getting into how that intelligence evolved in this article. In other words, I would see a value in an article on the evolution of human intelligence, "human intelligence" in this context meaning something shared by all humans and distinct from the kinds of intelligence found in other species. And I see a value in an article reviewing debates over variations within "human intelligence, variations in measures of intelligence among humans. My point is: I think these are two different articles, two different topics, and we would progress further if we didn't get bogged down in one while working on the other. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:42, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, yes yes, Raqmdrake, with all due respect, so you and Muntuwandi both know what you are talking about. Genug, basta, makatei, move on. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the development of human intelligence: Human intelligence is tied in some manner to the large increase in brain size going up the human evolutionary tree. When the encephalization quotient (EQ) is used to measure brain size relative to body size, modern humans are three times as encephalized (EQ = 6) as other primates (EQ = 2) and six times the average for all living mammals (EQ = 1, the reference group). This phylogenetic increase represents a disproportionate expansion of the brain’s prefrontal cortext, which matures last and is most essential for the highest cognitive functions, including weighing alternatives, planning, understanding the temporal order of events (and thus cause-and-effect relations), and making decisions. Moreover, encephalization of the human line proceeded rather quickly, in evolutionary terms, after the first hominids (Australopithicines, EQ = 3) split off from their common ancestor with chimpanzees (EQ = 2) about 5 million years ago. Encephalization was especially rapid during the last 500,000 to one million years, when relative brain size increased from under EQ = 4 for Homo erectus (arguably the first species of Homo) to about EQ = 6 for living humans (the only surviving subspecies of Homo sapiens). (Gottfredson: Innovation, Fatal Accidents, and the Evolution of General Intelligence) MoritzB 18:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I think it's rather intellectualy dishonest to constantly push africans off as, er, "retarded" in face of things like this:
http://www.thecoupmagazine.com/content/view/45/47/
"Another difference that commentators writing on the study noted, though that was not explicitly stated in the study, involves work ethic. As a direct result of pressure to succeed, many black immigrants, much like immigrants from other nations, outperform their American peers. According to U.S. census data from 2000, “black immigrants from Africa averaged the highest educational attainment of any population group in the country,” with 43.8% of African immigrants having attained a degree at an institution of higher learning in comparison to 42.5% of Asian-Americans, 28.9% of immigrants from Europe and Canada, and 23.1 of the entire U.S. population (Page, "Black Immigrants Collect"). In addition, black immigrants make up 40% of the black student population enrolled in Ivy League education institutions, while they only comprise 13 percent of the black population in the United States as a whole (Wu, "Immigrants Comprise"). "
Bare in mind that immigrants don't get affirmative action. If the average african IQ were that low, or even somewhere in the 70's, people like this would be rare to non-existant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.136.64 ( talk) 22:24, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
My point was that, on the topic of african IQ, it's fallacious to constantly assert that the IQ of 70 figure is the reality of it all when the sheer abundance of high IQ africans living abroad couldn't possibly exist considering averages at such extremities. Malnutrition, cultural differences, and the fact that many african universities have very poor standards (yes, I've read Lynn's work, he lists studies of low IQ groups from universities) also are a problem for this to be taken seriously. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.136.64 ( talk) 04:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
since the page is locked, and i cant edit, i think it should be added that a big percent (if not most of them) of the world chess champions were also Ashkenazi Jews —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.3.91 ( talk) 01:04, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
In the section "Race as a social construct" it is stated that "[i]n contemporary North American society, Blacks and coloreds are considered to be one 'race,' since any individual who possess any degree of nonwhiteness is automatically grouped in the Black category". However, if you are, say, of South Asian descent in some way, you do possess "some degree of nonwhiteness", yet you're not classified as Black or African-American. This should be corrected to read "... possesses any degree of black African ancestry..." Victor Chmara 11:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
What exactly is it that's in such dispute so as to cause this article's protection status? W.M. O'Quinlan 20:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
why does this article need to mention both? and why are people so desperate to prove that those of african descent really are the 'dumbest' people on earth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.80.90 ( talk) 04:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
What happned to this section? Media portrayal of race and intelligence ? futurebird 17:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Brain size reflects not only genetics, but also the degree to which one is exposed to cognitive stimulation. The correlation between brain size and intelligence might result from people who are interested in intelligent stuff growing bigger brains as they learn. Every major meta-analysis of the brain size intelligence correlation has noted this. Why doesn't the article? Specifically, I'm talking about the section on evolution/ice ages. Thanks, -- 156.56.151.76 01:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Also, it should be noted that brain size is not a definitive measure of intelligence in any sense (see blue whales/Einstein, if you must). As well, I believe that it was stated there is supposedly a 0.40 level of positive correlation between cranial capacity and IQ scores--this does not seem to be a particularly objective observation without including the fact that, again, IQ is not a completely accurate measure of intelligence itself, and correlation is not a valid method for correctly demonstrating why there is a relationship between a given pair of variables.
Frank0570618 02:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
According to Fox News "one of the world's most eminent scientists has created a racial firestorm in Britain" when he commented that blacks are less intelligent than whites. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302836,00.html
Watson writes in his book that "there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically". Nobody should question his expertise on evolutionary theory.
Such public attention has not been focused on the issue since the publication of Bell Curve. Ramdrake claims that Watson's views cannot be included to this article because "he is not an expert on intelligence". Nobody
However, Watson's comments are relevant simply because they caused much public debate on race and intelligence and prominent public figures (like Keith Vaz commented on the controversy. There are demands that Watson should be prosecuted.
This articles does not focus only on the scientific debate but also the public debate. Watson's views are notable ( WP:NOTE) in the public debate and reported by numerous reliable sources.
British news stories about the "scandal":
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/books/article2630748.ece http://news.independent.co.uk/sci_tech/article3067222.ece http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=488026&in_page_id=1770 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/17/nwatson217.xml
MoritzB 13:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, Watson's statement belong to his page, but not here. He is not an expert on the topic at hand. How controversial a statement is in not the proper criterion for inclusion in this article, the proper criterion for inclusion is the academic relevance and significance of the material to be included. Thus, the Bell curve was a book. As flawed as it may be, it deserves inclusion because it attempted to draw from studies and other stuff. Watson's opinion is just an opinion so no need to put it here. When he says it in the context of a prp or book, then maybe then. Brusegadi 00:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
"We do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things," he is quoted as saying. "The overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity."
"It may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers." http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7052416.stm MoritzB 16:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I believe it is a reasonable assumption that the ancestors of all people in the world today looked similar in the distant past, in the same way that people of the same race look similar today. Those ancestors became geographically separated and evolved into different races. It would be surprising if the only differences that evolved between those races were those apparent to the eye. However, our public policies and current standards of political correctness compel us to say if not believe that the only differences are those noticeable by sight and perhaps a predisposition towards certain health problems. Unfortunately, misguided public policy meant to benefit a certain sector of society costs taxpayer dollars and can even have a negative effect on other sectors of society. Public policy must take into account the inconvenient truths of the real world, not a politically correct fantasy world. -- Jagz 17:49, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
"Cavalli himself has made significant contributions to the fight against racism. On several occasions he publicly debated Arthur Jensen and William Shockley arguing that environmental factors could explain the black white IQ gap."
This information does not relate to the evolutionary history of intelligence. It is misplaced and badly written. (What "fight against racism"???)
The chapter "prejudice and intelligence": "A study done at a university known for its conservative values in the south of the US was carried out in order to determine whether a relationship existed between prejudice and IQ. Students were given an IQ test and a test that measures racial prejudice. The study found that students who scored lower on IQ tests were more prejudiced"
This article is about race and intelligence, not prejudice and intelligence. The information is irrelevant and badly written. ("A university known for its conservative values"???)
MoritzB 18:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not an argument to keep reinserting crap into the article.-- Ramdrake 18:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Please explain why Cavalli-Sforza's "fight against racism" is relevant in this article. Furthermore, explain why possible correlation between some psychological trait (prejudice) and intelligence should be relevant in this article which is about race and intelligence. MoritzB 20:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this article does not seem to appropriately demonstrate an overall objective viewpoint. What I mean by this statement does not refer to the fact that issues mentioned are controversial. In fact, the lack of objectivity stems directly from the direction that this article follows when providing information. It seems apparent that the first sign of trouble comes immediately after reading the title. As this article itself admits (and I must apologize, but I do not intend to cite the specific reference within this article), there is a level of ambiguity involved with a concept such as "race". It appears to me that if such a concept is in dispute it should be relegated to a subsection of such an article, allowing for a title that actually describes what the article intends to discuss. Moreover, there is a need to distinguish this last, as the article appears to jointly describe how "genes influence intelligence" and "current racial controversies", a pair of topics that should not be displayed directly within the same section.
Frank0570618 02:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
This article needs to have a proper description of how evolutionary factors would affect intelligence over a short period of time (i.e. 65 000 years). In the discussion of "the evolutionary history of IQ" there are several scientific facts that have been overlooked with regard to evolutionary theory. For example, the claim that there would be any change in IQ from generation to generation is as close to Lamarkian reasoning as I have ever seen. This is very nearly done by the source cited (who, matter of fact, has a background in chemistry) to be arguing in favour of genetic variations in intelligence since the exist of humans from Africa. Specifically, the statement that the only variation needed would be 0.004 per generation can only be seen to be relevant if it is assumed that there will be genetic variability BETWEEN generations. Otherwise, it must simply be stated that there would need to be a change of 12 IQ points (IQ being a relative scale by the way, which I am sure environmental factors would have a dramatically greater influence on than genetic factors would--i.e. if you were to give an IQ test to a person 60 000 years ago, they would most certainly not score within an average range of today's values) over 65 000 years. As well it must be mentioned that the idea it is possible to accurately quantitatively measure the value of change in intelligence (a variable that must be acted upon by thousands of factors) is somewhat simplistic.
Frank0570618 03:00, 19 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
Why on earth does Wikipedia have ten articles on this topic, when it is unquestionably fringe science at best? Such vast coverage seems to confer an implicit authority on the topic, and so represents a kind of undue weight; where are the series of articles arguing the mainstream view that (i) 'race' is highly dubious as a scientific concept, (ii) 'intelligence' is almost as contentious (and extremely difficult to measure), and (iii) even if they are serious concepts, a link between the two has yet to be conclusively proven. If this is science at all (as opposed to psuedoscience), it is not an area that any significant number of biologists are concerned with - and rightly so, given how the main publishers and readers of this 'research' seem to be unapologetic racists.
It is difficult to avoid the conclusion that these articles were created by POV-pushers, and while I appreciate the efforts of more reasonable editors to keep them neutral, the mere existence of so many articles on this topic is inherently non-neutral. I would suggest that at least some of them be deleted, and this material be cut down to a shorter length to more accurately represent the (lack of) scientific validity of the subject matter. Terraxos 17:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. Most of the information in this area is deserving of a disclaimer. Basically, a large portion of this stuff is statistically weak when placed into the context that these sorts of articles describe. As well, the conclusions that are being drawn from much of this research are considerably too close to pseudo-science. Personally, freedom of information should be paramount to something like Wikipedia, but the improper censoring shown in this kind of article really hurt such a cause.
24.57.200.105 07:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
I thought an accurate description of the matter may be a chart that uses people of exactly the same education and the same numbers of people for each group. That kind of education would better be higher. Ideally, a masters degree or higher required (to avoid cheeply gotten lower school degrees). Is there such a chart? -- Leladax 20:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
ps. i've seen many iq tests, most are obviously rewarding education. some even have geography questions for heaven's sake. i suspect law graduates score lower than lower level physics or math degrees for not being in contact with math at all. -- Leladax 20:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC) pps. maybe someone should try a chart of math students of masters level. -- Leladax 20:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
James D. Watson, co-discoverer of the structure of DNA and Nobel laureate, writes in his 2007 book, "Avoid Boring People: Lessons From a Life in Science":
"There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically". "Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so."
-- Jagz 06:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Although ironic, it is not necessarily overly surprising that a "father" of the double helix might be very wrong about the functioning of evolutionary theory and genetics. Lacking complete and definite proof of something does not make it untrue. On the other hand, making claims that are both unproven and somewhat fat-fetched under the name of science without necessarily finding any proof is most definitely worthy of shame. Dr. Watson has rightfully lost any sense of credibility he may have once had due to his involvement of such activity. Our wanting to eliminate bigotry as a form of expression within a society supposedly based on equality will not be enough to make it so--but, hopefully the effort itself may be more than a worthwhile expenditure of time.
24.57.200.105 07:27, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
131.104.235.213 22:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
131.104.235.213 23:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
131.104.235.213 00:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
This article is a shame for wikipedia. Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence Intelligence is hard to define (see par. on "definition", "Other definitions"). It is clearly not the same as IQ tests.
Likewise, please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race#20th-_and_21st-Century_debates_over_race Nobody agrees on what is or is not "human race".
This article seems to be about some comparison between IQ tests and human color skins. Either this article should be removed or its title changed. Herve661 18:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
P.S. It would be advisable to make sure concepts such as evolution are not mucked up too much.
131.104.235.213 23:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
This should not be in this article. It's an original synthesis of sources and highly misleading. This article is on race and intelligence, not just race and IQ test scores. Richard Herrnstein, Charles Murray, Gottfredson and Richard Lynn are all controversial figures and Flynn's numbers are taken out of context. (His point was to show how IQ changed over time) The overall impression this table gives is that these numbers are accurate reflections of the intelligences of people from various parts of the world, rather than IQ test scores, that are in some cases based on speculation rather than actual tests. (Especially Richard Lynn's numbers.)
We have had this debate before. and that is why the numbers were moved out of the main article. We decided that they were not main-stream enough to be included here. Nothing has changed. The entire section needs to go. futurebird 05:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Sociologist Thomas Volken said that data fromIQ and the Wealth of Nations are "highly deficient," citing limited sampling and varying tests and years. link In a 1995 review of The Bell Curve, Leon Kamin wrotes that "Lynn's distortions and misrepresentations of the data constitute a truly venomous racism, combined with scandalous disregard for scientific objectivity." These data are exactly main-stream or widely accepted, if you ask me.
And once again, this particular synthesis is novel and possibly original research. futurebird 14:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Rushton and Jensen are just two guys... but, hundreds of researchers have worked on this question. I think outlining 10 points' in support of their theory alone is over-kill. Environmental explanations are only briefly mentioned in the last paragraph of this section, even though they are what main-stream scientists support most often and the most fruitful areas of research. (We can show the socio economic factors and racism have a direct impact on test scores, the gentic explination is only based on data anaysis.) If you look at Race and intelligence (Explanations) you'll see that the bulk of the information in that article is describing environmental explanations. This article should follow a similar pattern.
The explanations section comes across is if it is trying to make a point and show that Rushton and Jensen have a valid theory. That's NPOV and undue weight. futurebird 12:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Rushton and Jensen's work is considered controversial. They even admits as much themselves.
"Also in the 1990s, Phillipe Rushton has tried to couch racial differences in IQ in a theory drawn from evolutionary biology. This theory takes the concepts of r and K selection, crudely useful when applied to a vast range of living creatures considered on a continuum, and apply it to subtle differences in skull form, mental test results, and sexual behavior within our one species. This theory has no academic legitimacy and little relationship to real evolutionary theory, but it taints the whole Darwinian enterprise, strongly recalling the “scientific anthropology” of the era of slavery." "The reality is quite different. As argued by George Armelagos in his Presidential Address to the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (“Race, Reason and Rationale,” Evolutionary Anthropology 4, 1995, pp. 103–109) race itself is a dubious concept for the human species. Obviously it is sociologically meaningful, but even in the social realm it is a constantly moving target with little or no core biological legitimacy." link
The author presents a discussion of certain portions of Arthur Jensen's controversial article. The general conclusion is that Jensen has not provided substantial evidence that there are differences in neural structure among children from different social or ethnic groups which are genetically determined. The reviewer reacts to Jensen's conclusion "that schools and society must provide a range and diversity of educational methods, programs and goals, and occupational opportunities, just as wide as the range of human abilities." While the reviewer finds no objection to this general statement, he feels that the premise upon which it is built is rather flimsy because of the implication that individuals of different backgrounds are genetically different. A Critique of Jensen's Article: How Much Can We Boost IQ and Scholastic Achievement? Sanua, Victor D.
"some of Rushton's references to scientific literature with respects to racial differences in sexual characteristics turned out to be references to a nonscientific semipornographic book and to an article in the Penthouse Forum." ^ On the similarities of American blacks and whites: A reply to J.P. Rushton, by Zack Cernovsky, Journal of Black Studies, Vol. 25 (July 1, 1995), p. 672.
If you go to "eugenics.net" you'll see that only they put the word controversial in quotes when talking about Jensen. I think that they are the only people who would dispute the idea that his work is controversial.
Their work is only accepted by a small minority of scientists and a handful of self avowed racists. Even if you don't agree with any of this criticism there is so much of it that it's a little silly to call Rushton and Jensen's work "main-stream."
futurebird 14:17, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
131.104.235.213 01:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
I would also like to point out to Moritz, after glancing at the article that he sourced above, that the idea that there is a distinction between environmental and genetic impacts on behaviour/intelligence/etc is a misconception. Within the last decade at the very least, this idea has been widely discredited because it is not only too narrow, but it completely ignores very apparent interactions between the two. Statistically speaking, if these two variables interact in all situations, there is NO possible way to correlate one of the variables with something else (such as intelligence) because they will most certainly be confounded. The main issue with intelligence and race arguments is that they are simply another method attempting to support the "race concept"--a concept that has failed in most relevant areas because it is not consistent with evolutionary theory. Why we need to support another concept that will evoke racism is beyond me. Do the research that is fine. Publish your findings and make conclusions (no matter how far fetched), I support it fully--this is the essence of science. But stop writing the biased, unsubstantiated crap that is out there for everyone to see. Propaganda is anything but a necessary evil for supporting views that are considered to be controversial.
131.104.235.213 01:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618
The consensus among intelligence researchers is that IQ differences between individuals of the same race reflect (1) real, (2) functionally/socially significant, and (3) substantial differences in the general intelligence factor. [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]
This sentences is misleading because it makes it seem like all of those footnotes are in some way supporting Rushton and Jensen's idea about race and intelligence. This sentence is about genetics and intelligence not race... as are the sources that support it. Can we remove some of the sources from this sentence so there are only the two best ones? When I see this many footnotes I assume someone has an ax to grind... also it looks a little silly. futurebird 12:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Ben, could you implement this rewording? It would be a start. futurebird 13:31, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we should only include valid sources? I looked over these, and only one refers to a paper actually published in an academic journal. Moreover, all of the "articles" are from online newspapers (the exception is a book review...I'll leave others to make their own conclusions about this) that quite obviously do not represent a consensus of the scientific community (of intelligence researchers). Please, I know Wikipedia isn't supposed to be some kind of peer-reviewed, academic journal, but if you intend to create an encyclopaedic entry, you must actually use information that is valid. And yes, this criticism is in addition to the fact that support for the statement listed above is not presented in these sources--thankfully, this has already been mentioned several times.
Just to make the point clear this particular set of citations (and I know as a fact there are many similar ones) reminds me of how I used to get sources for my papers in grade school. I would create claims about what I believed, read information in a related area and cite those sources that were closest to the subject area that I was speaking about for a particular point. Luckily for me, my teachers didn't think it was as important that my information be correct as it was that I bother to make a reference list properly. I guess we all need to outgrow the habits we learned as twelve-year-olds--maybe it is time Wikipedia makes sure it does as well.
131.104.235.213 01:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)Frank0570618