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Well, a fine mess we've got now. I'm sure we'll agree that both of these groups of sources can't possibly be correct. We need the facts.
The European History Quarterly published a paper by Professor Stevan K. Pavlowitch dealing specifically with the status of Prince Aimone of Savoy-Aosta and his relationship with the WWII Axis occupation of Yugoslavia. Pavlowitch is Emeritus Professor of Balkan History at Southampton University and a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society. His specialty is WWII Yugoslavia and he has been published on numerous occasions dealing with that subject. he is "considered an authority on Yugoslav history". The title of the paper is The King Who Never Was, apparently Rodogno was quoting him with that phrase. This will finally give us the cold hard details and facts we need to see which of the sources are being superficial in accurately dealing with this obscure matter. I'll try to get my hands on the paper, and I'd like to ask you guys (or is it just dwc now?) to see if you can find it as well. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 01:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
If it is a controversial topic among hystorians is deeply questionable to choose some sources over the others. However, if we must choose among them i'd preferred dwc sources, as they are the most commonly accepted and as they are from different people and not from one single person, like yours. However, he became king of Croatia. Simply that state of Croatia wasn't the modern state of Croatia. It's pointless if you think it's offensive that he was king of Croatia, because it is hystory. We can all say that Hitler didn't rule Germany, but ... -- AndreaFox2 ( talk) 16:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Poppycock. If he officially had the title of 'King of Croatia' (which he did.) and was formally Head of State of the NDH (which again, he was) then he was. Regardless of any POV statements, such as 'He's as much a Croatian Head of State as Hans Frank was a Polish Head of State' which is wrong on two counts: i.The general government was not intended to be a 'Polish State' whereas the NDH patently was, and ii. whether the NDH was a 'puppet state' is neither here nor there; regardless of recognition or whatever, the state clearly existed and Aimone/Tomislav II was its formal head of state. QED, that's a fact and he should be regarded as such. Yes; 'DIREKTOR', we get it, the Nazis were bad, and so were the Ustashe, and what happened under their regimes was horiffic and completely and utterly amoral, I greatly agree with you on that point. Nonetheless, that is still POV at the end of the day, and to edit articles on a purely POV basis as you and others have done in this nature is totally POV and has no place in wikipedia, regardless of how noble the sentiments involved are. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 11:59, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
I advise editors to remove the excessive and meaningless text about his 'Croatian Kingdom' and him as a 'king'. It's enough mentioning it in just two sentences like: He was created King of Croatia as Tomislav II by Benito Mussolini in 1941. He never visited his 'kingdom' or like this
from The Statesman's year-book, New York, 1944.
Most of this his biography is just about two years of his life.-- Juraj Budak ( talk) 22:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
@Juraj. I don't see what relevance this has. A monarch doesn't have to visit the state of which they are monarch to be monarch of it. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 17:34, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I have refactored a thread added by
Ban kavalir below. Please note new threads should be created at the bottom of the page for new discussions. The most recent thread here is over a year old.
I have added many more that time and relevent book sources and replaced the inaccurate internet ones. Added the proper name of the office, two royal adjutants, another visit to Croatia, planed coronation and royal estate near Zagreb, etc. Since I have added sources from documents in the Croatian State Archives that describe legal position of his title and ones of Amedeo please first read them! before you engage in correcting them. This is the position on the title:
*15.05.1941. The three laws on the creation of crown of Zvonimir (3 days before Rome treaties!!!)which made Croatia a kingdom, signed by poglavnik Ante Pavelic, min. of domobranstvo Slavko Kvaternik, minister of justice Mirko Puk, minister of interior affairs Andrija Artuković, minister of health Ivan Petrić, etc. [1] [2]
- 18.05.1941. Rome treaties three articles in which the third one chooses the new dynasty [3]
- 23.-28. February 1942. Croatian State Sabor (parliament) which had more of a approval role, approved Aimone Tomisalv II. as king with other decision made by the poglavnik. [4]
- 10. September 1943. poglavnik Pavelic terminated ONLY articles that where on borders and military of the Rome treaties. Since the new dynasty is mentioned in article III. it is not terminated. [5] If needed I can translate the proclamation in whole?
- 27. September 1943. Amedeo Zvonimir is born, de jure and de facto prince of Croatia
- 12. October 1943. officially king Aimone Tomislav II. abdicated AS! king of Croatia and past the rights onto his son. [6]
(I will translate the important part) The regulatory provision on the crown of Zvonimir
- § 1. Sovereignty (headship) of the Independent State of Croatia is represented by the crown of king Zvonimir
- § 2. Description of the crown
- § 3. This regulatory provision enters into force with the day of publication in the Narodne novine (Public newspaper)
Also I would suggest you visit Croatian State Archives, here is the original page of the Rome Treaties from 1941. http://www.arhiv.hr/cs/groups/public/documents/document/mdaw/mda1/~edisp/web2hdarhivloc005110.jpg
Good books on the subject, with details are:
- Matković, "Designirani hrvatski kralj Tomislav II. vojvoda od Spoleta. Povijest hrvatskotalijanskih odnosa u prvoj polovici XX.st." (Designated Croatian king Tomislav II. Duke of Spoleto. History of Croatian-Italian relationships in first half of the 20th century), Zagreb 2007.
-Croatian author, whole book on the subject of Aimone Tomislav
- B. Krizman, NDH između Hitlera i Mussolinija (Independent State of Croatia between Hitler and Mussolini)
-Yugoslav author, also large number of sources
In conclusion the title was not terminated before Amedeo Zvonimir was born so he held the title crown prince. In Savoy family documents he is styled with the name Zvonimir as a heir, which he does not use now (source Serbian interview with him http://www.pressonline.rs/sr/vesti/Nedeljnik/story/201092/Kralj+Hrvatske%3A+%E2%80%9ENe+zanima+me+kruna%22.html ) Ban kavalir ( talk) 02:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
References
- ^ Hrvatski Narod (newspaper)16.05.1941. no. 93. p.1.,Public proclamation of theZakonska odredba o kruni Zvonimirovoj (Decrees on the crown of Zvonimir), tri članka donesena 15.05.1941.
- ^ Die Krone Zvonimirs, Monatshefte fur Auswartige Politik, Heft 6(1941)p.434.
- ^ Hrvatski Narod (newspaper)19.05.1941. no. 96. p.1., Public proclamation of the "Nova hrvatska dinastija" (new Croatian dynasty) 18.05.1941.
- ^ H. Matković "Povijest Nezavisne države Hrvatske" (History of Independent State of Croatia), Zagreb Naklada P.I.P. Pavičić, 1994. page. 79.)
- ^ State proclamation, On termination of Rome treaties, poglavnik Ante Pavelić, Zagreb 10. September 1943. (copy in book dr. Marijan Rogić, Pod Zvonimirovom krunom, sources page XXXIV. Munchen 2008.), Zagreb 2007.
- ^ Hrvoje Matković, Designirani hrvatski kralj Tomislav II. vojvoda od Spoleta. Povijest hrvatskotalijanskih odnosa u prvoj polovici XX.st. (Designated Croatian king Tomislav II. Duke of Spoleto. History of Croatian-Italian relationships in first half of the 20th century), Zagreb 2007.
I would like some comments by other editors on the recent changes made to this article. The recent edits are about changing the name of Aimone to King Aimone Tomislav II and the newly introduced emphasis to his tenure as designated King of Croatia during WW2, which lead to some disputable items added to the article. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 15:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:17, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2 |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Well, a fine mess we've got now. I'm sure we'll agree that both of these groups of sources can't possibly be correct. We need the facts.
The European History Quarterly published a paper by Professor Stevan K. Pavlowitch dealing specifically with the status of Prince Aimone of Savoy-Aosta and his relationship with the WWII Axis occupation of Yugoslavia. Pavlowitch is Emeritus Professor of Balkan History at Southampton University and a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society. His specialty is WWII Yugoslavia and he has been published on numerous occasions dealing with that subject. he is "considered an authority on Yugoslav history". The title of the paper is The King Who Never Was, apparently Rodogno was quoting him with that phrase. This will finally give us the cold hard details and facts we need to see which of the sources are being superficial in accurately dealing with this obscure matter. I'll try to get my hands on the paper, and I'd like to ask you guys (or is it just dwc now?) to see if you can find it as well. -- DIREKTOR ( TALK) 01:06, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
If it is a controversial topic among hystorians is deeply questionable to choose some sources over the others. However, if we must choose among them i'd preferred dwc sources, as they are the most commonly accepted and as they are from different people and not from one single person, like yours. However, he became king of Croatia. Simply that state of Croatia wasn't the modern state of Croatia. It's pointless if you think it's offensive that he was king of Croatia, because it is hystory. We can all say that Hitler didn't rule Germany, but ... -- AndreaFox2 ( talk) 16:13, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
Poppycock. If he officially had the title of 'King of Croatia' (which he did.) and was formally Head of State of the NDH (which again, he was) then he was. Regardless of any POV statements, such as 'He's as much a Croatian Head of State as Hans Frank was a Polish Head of State' which is wrong on two counts: i.The general government was not intended to be a 'Polish State' whereas the NDH patently was, and ii. whether the NDH was a 'puppet state' is neither here nor there; regardless of recognition or whatever, the state clearly existed and Aimone/Tomislav II was its formal head of state. QED, that's a fact and he should be regarded as such. Yes; 'DIREKTOR', we get it, the Nazis were bad, and so were the Ustashe, and what happened under their regimes was horiffic and completely and utterly amoral, I greatly agree with you on that point. Nonetheless, that is still POV at the end of the day, and to edit articles on a purely POV basis as you and others have done in this nature is totally POV and has no place in wikipedia, regardless of how noble the sentiments involved are. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 11:59, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
I advise editors to remove the excessive and meaningless text about his 'Croatian Kingdom' and him as a 'king'. It's enough mentioning it in just two sentences like: He was created King of Croatia as Tomislav II by Benito Mussolini in 1941. He never visited his 'kingdom' or like this
from The Statesman's year-book, New York, 1944.
Most of this his biography is just about two years of his life.-- Juraj Budak ( talk) 22:54, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
@Juraj. I don't see what relevance this has. A monarch doesn't have to visit the state of which they are monarch to be monarch of it. JWULTRABLIZZARD ( talk) 17:34, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I have refactored a thread added by
Ban kavalir below. Please note new threads should be created at the bottom of the page for new discussions. The most recent thread here is over a year old.
I have added many more that time and relevent book sources and replaced the inaccurate internet ones. Added the proper name of the office, two royal adjutants, another visit to Croatia, planed coronation and royal estate near Zagreb, etc. Since I have added sources from documents in the Croatian State Archives that describe legal position of his title and ones of Amedeo please first read them! before you engage in correcting them. This is the position on the title:
*15.05.1941. The three laws on the creation of crown of Zvonimir (3 days before Rome treaties!!!)which made Croatia a kingdom, signed by poglavnik Ante Pavelic, min. of domobranstvo Slavko Kvaternik, minister of justice Mirko Puk, minister of interior affairs Andrija Artuković, minister of health Ivan Petrić, etc. [1] [2]
- 18.05.1941. Rome treaties three articles in which the third one chooses the new dynasty [3]
- 23.-28. February 1942. Croatian State Sabor (parliament) which had more of a approval role, approved Aimone Tomisalv II. as king with other decision made by the poglavnik. [4]
- 10. September 1943. poglavnik Pavelic terminated ONLY articles that where on borders and military of the Rome treaties. Since the new dynasty is mentioned in article III. it is not terminated. [5] If needed I can translate the proclamation in whole?
- 27. September 1943. Amedeo Zvonimir is born, de jure and de facto prince of Croatia
- 12. October 1943. officially king Aimone Tomislav II. abdicated AS! king of Croatia and past the rights onto his son. [6]
(I will translate the important part) The regulatory provision on the crown of Zvonimir
- § 1. Sovereignty (headship) of the Independent State of Croatia is represented by the crown of king Zvonimir
- § 2. Description of the crown
- § 3. This regulatory provision enters into force with the day of publication in the Narodne novine (Public newspaper)
Also I would suggest you visit Croatian State Archives, here is the original page of the Rome Treaties from 1941. http://www.arhiv.hr/cs/groups/public/documents/document/mdaw/mda1/~edisp/web2hdarhivloc005110.jpg
Good books on the subject, with details are:
- Matković, "Designirani hrvatski kralj Tomislav II. vojvoda od Spoleta. Povijest hrvatskotalijanskih odnosa u prvoj polovici XX.st." (Designated Croatian king Tomislav II. Duke of Spoleto. History of Croatian-Italian relationships in first half of the 20th century), Zagreb 2007.
-Croatian author, whole book on the subject of Aimone Tomislav
- B. Krizman, NDH između Hitlera i Mussolinija (Independent State of Croatia between Hitler and Mussolini)
-Yugoslav author, also large number of sources
In conclusion the title was not terminated before Amedeo Zvonimir was born so he held the title crown prince. In Savoy family documents he is styled with the name Zvonimir as a heir, which he does not use now (source Serbian interview with him http://www.pressonline.rs/sr/vesti/Nedeljnik/story/201092/Kralj+Hrvatske%3A+%E2%80%9ENe+zanima+me+kruna%22.html ) Ban kavalir ( talk) 02:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
References
- ^ Hrvatski Narod (newspaper)16.05.1941. no. 93. p.1.,Public proclamation of theZakonska odredba o kruni Zvonimirovoj (Decrees on the crown of Zvonimir), tri članka donesena 15.05.1941.
- ^ Die Krone Zvonimirs, Monatshefte fur Auswartige Politik, Heft 6(1941)p.434.
- ^ Hrvatski Narod (newspaper)19.05.1941. no. 96. p.1., Public proclamation of the "Nova hrvatska dinastija" (new Croatian dynasty) 18.05.1941.
- ^ H. Matković "Povijest Nezavisne države Hrvatske" (History of Independent State of Croatia), Zagreb Naklada P.I.P. Pavičić, 1994. page. 79.)
- ^ State proclamation, On termination of Rome treaties, poglavnik Ante Pavelić, Zagreb 10. September 1943. (copy in book dr. Marijan Rogić, Pod Zvonimirovom krunom, sources page XXXIV. Munchen 2008.), Zagreb 2007.
- ^ Hrvoje Matković, Designirani hrvatski kralj Tomislav II. vojvoda od Spoleta. Povijest hrvatskotalijanskih odnosa u prvoj polovici XX.st. (Designated Croatian king Tomislav II. Duke of Spoleto. History of Croatian-Italian relationships in first half of the 20th century), Zagreb 2007.
I would like some comments by other editors on the recent changes made to this article. The recent edits are about changing the name of Aimone to King Aimone Tomislav II and the newly introduced emphasis to his tenure as designated King of Croatia during WW2, which lead to some disputable items added to the article. Gerard von Hebel ( talk) 15:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Prince Aimone, Duke of Aosta. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 20:55, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Prince Aimone, Duke of Apulia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 21:17, 12 September 2020 (UTC)