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RK: Your changes are mostly good, but I would keep some mention of "semicha" (along with an explanation of what it actually is). And also the test criteria put there by Ezra, although I guess the criteria should be attributed to the group they issue from, with maybe criteria of those other groups that have criteria added.
Also, from the perspective of a non-Jewish non-Hebrew-speaker, I find entries on things such as poskim interesting, so long as the meanings of all those words is explained, and the word denotes a concept specific to Judaism, as opposed to just the Hebrew word for such and such. --- Mon.
I removed the link to legal systems because, having followed my own link, it became clear that the role of case law and precedent differs by system - particularly civil law based systems as compared to common law based systems (see also stare decisis). I think it would be interesting if a lawyer or a student of jurisprudence would write about this here and / or in the Halakha article. Perhaps the legal systems article should also be linked to the Halakha article. Fintor talk December 5 13:44 UTC
I made 2 changes, I hope they are uncontroversial. Firstly, reform & reconstructionist do largely believe that e.g. the ten commandments have binding and normative character, so I felt it wasn't quite correct to say they don't accept Jewish law (implying any Jewish law) as binding.. only those on the extreme progressive wing, or in the very early days (19th century) of the Reform movement, might take that attitude. Second, it's true that Reform/Reconstructionist rabbinic training doesn't emphasise as much study of poskim and dinim, but I didn't agree with the reason given. After all, these movements believe that each individual must live by rules, which they derive, by whatever process, from the words of the Torah and the Oral Law, and this in my view constitutes a normative approach to law which Reform rabbis study profoundly (including study of traditional Jewish din). Feedback welcome. Zargulon 01:51, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I wrote "Rabbi" in front of R' Yosef' and R' Eliashiv's names, and added that decisions by the Conservative board of rabbis are somewhat respected in the Reform and Reconstructionist community but do not carry any signicance for Orthodox Jews, who do not recognize their authority. -- Daniel575 19:56, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I do not think that the articles should be merged, similar to the way Ecclesiastical court and canon are now separate. Avi 20:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
If no one disagrees, I will remove the merge tags. Avi 15:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Askenazic Jewery in the US, wouldn't HaRav Dovid Feinstein be considered the Posek? Avi 20:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The problem with "decisor" is that there's no such word. It's not that the people who translate it that way are think it means something different, it's that they're making up a word for the same thing that everyone else says it means. -- Zsero ( talk) 13:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to find the history on where the term and concept of the Posek came from? How does one become a Posek? What is the first known usage of the term? Is there a difference in Orthodox Judaism between the opinion of a rabbi and the opinion of a Posek? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.179.222.101 ( talk) 19:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry if this has been dredged up ad nauseaum before, but shouldn't we transliterate the plural form as 'Posekim'? The sheva under the samech is clearly na according to the classical rules. Savant1984 ( talk) 03:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Debresser. I have often found that the "language experts" on Wikipedia insist on spellings which are used only in scholarly books (e.g. halakha, semikhah), or which are so condensed and devoid of vowels as to be unidentifiable (e.g. shmita). Since scholars are probably not looking things up on Wikipedia, I suggest that our users are the everyday folks who say things like psak and poskim. I could offer a compromise: p'sak with an apostrophe would acknowledge the shva while not messing up the English pronunciation. Many readers would go ahead and pronounce your renderings of pesak and posekim totally the wrong way. Yoninah ( talk) 13:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
The only really relevant matter here is that the common English usage is "psak", not "pesak". Wikipedia doesn't "correct" common transliterations, it replicates them. Also, "pesak" is more likely to be pronounced as if it had a segol underneath it than a shva, and likely with the emphasis on that first syllable. As an alternative, you could use "p'sak", which will most likely produce the correct pronunciation. Jayjg (talk) 20:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Zargulon, as I understood it, the argument for using "pesak" was that it was the "correct" transliteration, likely to induce readers to use a proper sh'va na when saying it. My point was that it was more likely to produce an incorrect pronunciation (something like the way an English speaker might say "Pesach"), and that if that were the only consideration, then "p'sak" is the transliteration most likely to produce correct pronunciation. For that matter, English speakers almost invariably insert a sh'va na between the "p" and "s" when reading the word "psak". The least helpful transliteration in this case is "pesak". Combine that with the fact that "psak" is vastly more common usage, and it becomes clear that "pesak" is not a good transliteration to be using here. Jayjg (talk) 21:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
I essentially agree with Yoninah. There are at least two widely used academic transliteration systems we can use, and as I've indicated before in this discussion, this is of course a matter going well beyond the scope of this article. Again, the only thing I am steadfastly against is intentionally transliterating an incorrect (however popular) pronunciation. Savant1984 ( talk) 01:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Whoa, Debresser, I don't think we reached consensus here to go back to the pre-discussion spelling. If anything, it seems that (your dissent excepted) we reached consensus to use apostrophes. Savant1984 ( talk) 03:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Despite my oft-stated revulsion at the notion of intentionally transliterating for an incorrect, however common, pronunciation, the utter failure of the Great Apostrophe Compromise brings me to Yoninah's position: this argument (at least on this one page) is simply not worth the tsuris when I (and the rest of us) have far more productive things we could be doing, even on Wikipedia ( kal vachomer real life). This is a discussion for a standardising project with broad input and without the punchiness that comes with having it over a standing article. Savant1984 ( talk) 20:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually, there is a clear guideline on Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Hebrew)#Vowels_and_shva that says that in order for a shva to be written as an "e" two conditions need to be fulfilled: it should be a shva na at the beginning of a word 2. is should be actually pronounced in modern Hebrew. The word "psak" fails the second criterion, and poskim the first. End of discussion. Debresser ( talk) 18:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
There should be no reason to exclude the names of known notable poskim from this article's lists on the grounds that "they don't have articles on WP about them" since that is no reason to be excluded from any article on WP. On the contrary, many articles start off because names are written down in those articles, quite often with "red links" as signs that they will get or deserve future articles, in the meantime having the names produces more comprehensive and encyclopedic information. IZAK ( talk) 01:59, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
As for Rabbi Yechezkel Roth, also known as the Karlsburg Rov, he's almost like a Chasidishe Rebbe with a very wide following and is a very famous former Satmar dayan, and presently has a yeshiva and bais din in Boro Park, Brooklyn where he is one of the leading elder poskim, no two ways about it. IZAK ( talk) 08:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Since when are Chabad Chasidim going to "decide" who is or is not "famous" as a Rov or Posek when they don't know anyone outside their own little worlds?? Actually, most of the rabbis in Category:Chabad-Lubavitch rabbis are very minor figures (most of those articles should be put up for deletion as they violate the basics of not adhering to WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO) that have been pumped up and fluffed up with PR but that in no way reflects their greatness as rabbis or anything for that matter. Watch out, the editorial sword cuts both ways. IZAK ( talk)
Debresser, point by point:
In brief, Artscroll is irrelevant where seeking definition of standards necessary to qualify as a posek. Generally the term is used when mentioning Halakhic authorities whose rulings are cited, respected, and considered throughout the halakhic world and who have also (generally) published and authored widely-quoted responsa. The names you keep inserting do not remotely qualify, though this may change with time, at which point it may be reconsidered. I further propose removing Mordechai Willig and Yitzchak Berkovits for exactly trhe same reason, and adding J David Bleich. Winchester2313 ( talk) 17:49, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
You fellows start the problems yourselves, so you only have yourselves to blame. Stop acting innocent. Stop harassing editors and edit warring at the Rav Shach-type articles and any topic that Chabad deems to be "enemies of Chabad"! For example, even though Orthodox editors do not agree with Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism you do NOT find them spending time attacking them and their notable people, as Chabad editors do with their "hate list" topics. It becomes very tiresome, and I must warn you that in the past when such behavior, with clear evidence of group editing taking place, that sooner or later the entire group will face the music. This is not just my imagination or prejudice talking, but please take a long hard look at what happened over the years with the: (1) Transcendental Meditation movement case; (2) Scientology case; (3) Lyndon LaRouche case; (4) CAMERA case and why the (5) Chabad movement case is similar and came dangerously close (for you) of serious measures against you. If you persist in your violations and threats and harassments with your pro-Chabad POV edit warring, you will leave me no choice but to reopen the case against you as you create an environment of hostility and insults that makes it impossible for other non-Chabad editors to tangle with you out of fear and the sheer drudgery of having to put up with your constant mischief making. I have a very simple word of advice for you, just remember, all the time, that Wikipedia is NOT Chabad.org! IZAK ( talk) 06:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
In addition I think it might me better to move the list of poskim to a separate article, List of Poskim e.g. Debresser ( talk) 13:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. An article about poskim needs to include (at least) a basic list of the prominent examples to be relevant. There are thousands of rabbis who rule on matters of halakha every day, only a few who have become recognition as a Posek beyond their respective local communities. Winchester2313 ( talk) 17:29, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I propose changing the subtitle from 'Living Poskim' to 'Leading Present-day Poskim' to add clarity to the significance of the list, and to make consensus easy to reach....? Winchester2313 ( talk) 17:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
As per this discussion, I've removed all but the most prominent and universally recognized poskim from the list. Winchester2313 ( talk) 16:20, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
User:Debresser, I don't very much care, but "decider" is extremely poor English. The word is "decisor". Same goes for the rest. AddMore der Zweite ( talk) 12:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Some IP editor wants to add redlinked poskim. I undid his edit a few times, and the next step is to simply protect this article from edits by IP users. The IP user in question is kindly requested to see the section above, where it was discussed that we have too many people in the "notable poskim" sections, and by way of compromise it was agreed to remove the redlinked ones. The reason is simple: if they don't have an article, they are likely less notable. I agree that guidelines allow to have redlinks, but when there is consensus that there are too many entries in a list, the redlinks are the obvious first choice to go out. This is also common in e.g. lists of actors in a "Cast" section. Debresser ( talk) 10:21, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
---"The reason is simple: if they don't have an article, they are likely less notable." This is an overly broad assumption, which becomes flawed when taken as a hard rule. There are Israeli poskim who have exponentially more influence, but being that their sphere of influence is either primarily in Israel, or merely starting to trickle to outside, they do not (currently) have English language Wikipedia pages. I added quite a number of names over this past week, without knowing about the "redlink" rule found here, and I will say, the two redlinked ones who keep getting removed are a lot more prominent than a lot of the blue linked ones I added in the past week (which is NOT to say, that those bluelinked ones are not notable. I am merely noting the flaw of taking bluelink=notable, redlink= not notable as a HARD rule). Rav Landau is the Ashkenaz Rav and Av Beit Din of Bnai Brak, a city of almost 200,000 Jews, the vast majority of which are Haredi, and with many prominent Rabbis living there. He is one of the biggest and most influential experts on Kashrut, and has one of the most notable hechserim in Israel.
Rav Rimon is not even 50 years old, but he is already Rav of Alon Shevut, home of one of the foundational and most influential Hesder and Dati Leumi yeshivot in the country (Yeshivat Har Etzion). He is rabbinic head of the Jewish college of technology and head of its beit midrash, founder and chairman of the Halacha Education Center, a former Rav at Yeshivat Har Etzion, and most importantly in the context of posek, author of over a dozen books on halacha, including works of shabbat, pesach, shemitta, purim meshulash, halachot of the idf, and more.
To say that Rav's Landau and Rimon are "not" notable Poskim because their (thus far) lack of English Wikipedia pages is highly problematic. Had I known about this red link rule, I would have much rather not added a lot of the names I added in the past week, and would rather have these two listed. A lot of those have blue links because of their notoriety in addition to being a posek (for example- they are notable as Rav of a city or Yeshiva, etc.) whereas these two are primarily notable as poskim. That in itself shows the flaw in the "redlink rule." Shmuley Boteach has semicha, and due to his notoriety due to his celebrity has a Wikipedia page. By that logic, if someone added him, he would not get a second glance since he has a blue link. Proof of that is that before I corrected Rav Landau to the correct (redlinked) one by putting his full name, Moshe Landau (same name, blue link) was on the posek page without any complaint before I noticed and changed it. That bluelink Moshe Landau who was there for, who knows how long, was a deceased secular Israeli, Supreme Court Justice, listed as a "leading" living posek, unnoticed by the "redlink" patrol police, who seems more interested in hard and fast nonsensical rules than a quality posek page and list of poskim.
Also, by using "redlink rule" as an arbitrary decisor for who to keep and who to cut seems to me to be against Wikipedia guidelines. Red links, when appropriate, are considered integral to helping Wikipedia grow, by bringing attention to notable figures who deserve wikipedia pages. By using redlinks as a justification of not listing someone even if they are otherwise qualified, or even more qualified that bluelinkes listed, one is flipping that logic on its head, and hurting the purpose of Wikipedia, basically saying, "we will NOT bring attention to help Wikipedia grow with those who deserve pages, b/c they do not currently have pages, and will instead perpetuate the names of those who already have pages." That is circular logic, and in the case of going forward in the future, as young names become known and notable (as is the case with Rav Rimon, who will get his English Wikipedia page one day, I am certain, until 120), they are "blacklisted" from the posek list, where perhaps they should be listed first, as that is their source of renown.
Also, now that the poskim list is more organized, broken down into pre-20th century, Orthodox, Non-Orthodox, and organized chronologically, maybe it is time to revisit the idea that the list is too long. It is much more organized, and no longer reads like a long random list without rhyme or reason.
(As an aside, in the Talk page a few years back, there were some swipes at the "Chabad" editor's ways and his "Chabadness". I too, am troubled by his ways, which smacks in the face of Wikipedia's rules and purposes on redlinks, but that is irrelevant of Chabad, and I want to note that 2 of the 3 poskim of mine he keeps removing due to being redlinked (one erroneously) are associated with Chabad.)- anonymous editor, 11/22/2015
Just realized, one of the greatest poskim of recent times is "black listed" from being mentioned here, as he would be "red linked", so despite him being allowed (and in fact encouraged) to be listed based on Wikipedia standards and protocol, that does not seem to be sufficient for this page. I refer to Rav Efraim Greenblatt (1932-2014), talmid muvhak of Rav Moshe Feinstein, author of the heralded ten-volume Shailos Uteshuvos Rivevos Ephraim, an encyclopedic work with thousands of teshuvos addressing virtually every topic in contemporary halacha. He also authored the two-volume Rivevos Ephraim Al Hatorah, the two-volume Rivevos V’Yovlos, and numerous teshuvos and articles published in Torah journals and other publications. See http://matzav.com/the-revivos-ephraim-rav-ephraim-greenblatt-ztl/ , http://hamodia.com/2014/01/05/harav-ephraim-greenblatt-ztl/ , http://www.torahmusings.com/2014/01/a-gentle-giant/ , http://www.ravaviner.com/2014/01/ha-rav-ha-gaon-r-ephraim-greenblatt.html , http://faithinmemphis.com/2014/01/rabbi-efraim-greenblatt-1932-2014/ , and https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%98 .
An extremely noted posek according to Haredi, modox, and hardal websites and rebbeim, as evidenced by the links above, and by Hebrew Wikipedia, but because he is a redlink, Debresser might report me if I add him, in line with wikipedia standards, to the list of prominent poskim? Explanation please?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.2.168.100 ( talk • contribs)
Ok, I will stop the whining for now. Closing thoughts- Seriously, though, my main issue is that your shita on this seems to fly in the face of wikipedia policy, and smacks of laziness. (We can not come up with universal criteria, so blue link it will be, and I will not even notice when a deceased secular Israeli supreme court justice is listed as a noted living posek, because he has a blue link, yay! And when someone comes along and corrects that to the right person, the rav of bnai brak, he finall gets removed, because now he is red linked.
Also, note that by your red link rule, Rav Menashe Klein author of over 20 volumes of original shaailos u teshuvos, only become a noted posek a few months before his death at age 87, as that was when a Wikipedia page was finally created for him.
Finally, I question whether you "damn well know your poskim" now that you admit you never heard of The Rivevos Efraim, not to mention some people you had not heard of earlier on the talk page. I guess any joe shmoe is universally seen as a talmid muvhak of rav moshe, authors ten volumes of orignal shaailos u teshuvos, and is respected and quoted by both american and israeli haredim, tzionim, modox, chabad (quoted in a halachic teshuva by http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1342409/jewish/Do-I-Say-Kaddish-Again.htm ) (or http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=68746 which claims the Rebbe corresponded with him), etc, with lavish eulogies by all streams of Judaism noting his gadlus as a posek. Which, by the way, actually follows Wikipedia policy for gettign recognized, not the anti-Wikipedia policy redlink rule you are enforcing.
Why don't you actually do some research, read the links I posted about him, (as per actual wikipedia policy) and begin to "damn well know your poskim."
And lookie lookie who published in a journal in honor of the Rebbe in 1984? Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, rav zalman nechemia goldberg, rav menashe klein, rav pinchas hirschprung (who you also removed a few times) and, none other than Rav Efrayim Greenblat (who you never heard of!) See page 355 of "Turning Judaism Outwards" by Chaim Miller, here https://books.google.com/books?id=z8MNBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=schneerson+efraim+greenblatt&source=bl&ots=WZd6m4Nu2Q&sig=7Av2tn9YtB9DQ_0yA1Zjx4EpgK4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiajdbi26XJAhUBVj4KHd1LAAoQ6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=schneerson%20efraim%20greenblatt&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 04:23, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
-Perhaps there is something I am not getting. I am an amateur editor. But I have not understood any of your responses to be Wikipedia policy valid. Can you please explain, or I will consider filing a disruptive editor complaint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 04:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I missed it, when was the consensus reached? I edited. You changed it. I changed it back explaining the reason based on Wikipedia policy (which includes redlinks and outside sources, not original research). You changed it back explaining the red link rule (against wiki policy) and using your own original research (based on who YOU know and see as qualified, outside sources be ******. The fact that you think the rivevos efraim is a nobody, makes me speechless. Needless to say, you would NEVER be hired by a print encyclopedia as an expert/editor on poskim) As far as I see, you are the consensus? I checked the talk page, and all I saw was a similar argument 5 years back, with more posters arguing against the redlink rule and only you arguing for it. Is that consensus? You threatened to block IP users from editing, which blocks the ability to build consensus, which is what forces me to go the complaint filing route. Also, your own arguments are hypocritical, because YOU yourself (as per the talk page dated 2010) wrote about "known" poskim "Doesn't start to compare with Shmuel Wosner who is know in all of the Hareidi world, or Moshe Landau the chief rabbi of Bnei Brak, and whose hechsher is known around the world." So apparently, your "quality" editing decisions allowed a deceased secular chief justice of Israel be bluelinked for years as a noted living posek, becasue you deemed someone with the same name notable, but now that I, instantly discovered that to be the wrong person and fixed it, all of a sudden he is redlinked, and I guess no longer notable, despite your claims of 5 years ago.
So I do not see that consensus, and even if it is there and I am unaware of it, consensus is not #1 in wikipedia order of editing operations/priorities. If it were, ignoramuses or those with political agendas could run amok over wikipedia. It is consensus among unbiased experts in the topic, basing themselves on outside sources and NOT original research.
And your talk of undue weight is ridiculous when your own redlink rule disallows the rivevos efraim, while listing blue link Ephraim Padwa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 20:49, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
I'd be more than happy to go the consensus route, rather than reporting, but after you said " Editor is asked for the last time to stop edit warring, or they will be reported," and your claim that your view is consensus, I felt I have no choice. Can we try to go the consensus route instead? Can I add the redlink rivevos efraim, and we will see what the consensus on that is? How is "I never heard of him" consensus and NOT original research? B'H, you have the gaava to say anyone you never heard of is not noteworthy. Guess you didn't learn the mussar from rashi who said "I don't know" countless times in his writings. Time to learn more mesilat yesharim my friend, and after 120, I am sure the rivevos efraim, in the room learning torah with all the bluelinks as peers, will kindly introduce himself to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 21:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Things got a little testy, so let's reset, and just TALK it out. Point by point-
QUOTE- "I already wrote above that you should read the section above this one, where the same subject was discussed."
RESPONSE- I read that section, and I do not see a consensus in your favor, rather the opposite, and would appreciate a clarification. IZAK and Yehoishophot Oliver both disagreed with the redlink rule, which only you were arguing for. Winchester2313 agreed that the list should be more limited, but made no statement either way regarding the redlink rule, merely wanting a tighter list. So in terms of the redlink rule, it was 2 against, and 1 for, and the consensus would seem to be against it. IZAK made the last edits relating to the discussion on 25 October 2010, as per the then consensus. Almost a year later, 14 September 2011, Debresser edits and removes redlinks, despite the 2:1 talk page consensus of a year earlier being against it, and with the TALK page as currently constituted not showing any further TALK/discussion on the issue. This leads me to believe the new redlink rule was instituted unilaterally, without consensus, based on the fact that a year ealier the consensus was the opposite, the one making the edits was the one in the minority the year before, and there is no further TALK on the topic.
QUOTE- "This "redlink" rule, as you call it, is not against any Wikipedia policy or guideline, and your blind insistence on repeating untrue statements doesn't help."
RESPONSE- According to Wikipedia:Red link "In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article, or article section, under any name. Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on the subject, or if the red link could be replaced with a link to an article section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic." Thus, the redlink rule, as used here, is against Wikipedia policy.
QUOTE- "WP:CONSENSUS is a Wikipedia policy, not just a guideline, and might well be considered to be the main rule of Wikipedia, as a matter of fact."
RESPONSE- As I said above, I do not see the consensus, and would appreciate if you pointed it out to me. Past requests to do so have directed me to this talk page, and to look above. As I just noted a couple of paragraphs up, I saw 3 people whether directly or indirectly, discuss the redlink rule, 2 of whom were against it, so I do not see the consensus anyhow.
Now, even if you were, theoretically, correct about the consensus, the WP:CONSENSUS page itself says "Consensus refers to the primary way decisions are made on Wikipedia, and it is accepted as the best method to achieve our goals, i. e., to achieve our five pillars. Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines states that "Wikipedia has many policies and guidelines about encyclopedic content. These standards require verifiability, neutrality, respect for living people, and more." The red link rule is not verifiable or neutral. It is an over-broad, blanket, generalization. This can be seen by the fact that a deceased secular Israeli justice was listed for 5 years as a notable posek, overlooked because of the redlink rule, as he had a bluelink, while the actual posek he was confused for, is now kicked off due to being a redlink. That was not based on verifiability and neutrality. Wikipedia:Verifiability states that "verifiability means that anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source." Within seconds, I found over a half dozen, extremely diverse, reliable sources for the statement that the rivevos efraim was a very notable posek, despite his having a redlink.
QUOTE- "As I said, I am a rabbi myself, and I know who are this generations poskim."
RESPONSE- That is a conclusory statement. Wikipedia:No original research states that ""original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." I understand you will likely not find sources saying who is NOT a noted posek, but you are denying a plethora of diverse, reliable, published resources for someone who is a noted posek.
By the way, here is another conclusory statement, for illustrative purposes(apologies) (which happens to be have really happened), in recent days, regarding our discussion, I spoke to two professional men who I am acquainted with who are doing semicha on the side, one in his late 20s, one in his early 30s, one affiliated with YU, and one diverse, having had affiliation with Torah V Daas, Gush, and Chabad, both very serious, intelligent folk, and told them about this Rabbi who never heard of Feivel Cohen, the Rivevos Efraim, or Rav Rimon. The nicer one giggled. The harsher one said "he is an am ha'aretz." (Note, one heard of all 3 of them, one heard of two of them, but did not say "since I never heard of him, he must not be great" but rather expressed curiosity about learning more about him). I am hoping that you can see how basing Wikipedia editing policy on the conclusory suggestion that you are "an am ha'aretz" is not proper Wikipedia policy. I am not basing my thoughts on that conclusory statement. I am basing it on indepedent, verifiable, reliable sources, as per Wikipedia policy. I merely share it with you to showcase the irrelevance of your conclusory statement. The Rabbi of my shul never heard of someone from the list of poskim until I mentioned him to my Rav a few months ago. By your logic, that posek should be removed from the list of poskim. One final conclusory statement that I am reminded of by yours. (Apologies again). I have a mesorah from my Rosh Yeshiva, who says (only slightly paraphrased, to give over in print his orally made point more accurately) "any rabbi who thinks he knows everything, is not a real rabbi, and stay far away"
QUOTE- "Regarding consensus in this specific case. The two of us disagree, so consensus stays as it was. That is the rule."
RESPONSE- Again, looking at the talk page, where you directed me to see the consensus, I saw the previous consensus to not be on your side. Based on what I saw on Determining consensus, I am unsure about where or when your consensus was reached, and again, I would appreciate being directed to it.
Thank you 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 01:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Would like to note one further thought about the bluelink rule for determining notability. I think there will be little disagreement that 95-99% of psak written throughout history have been written in Hebrew/Lashon Hakadoseh. Yet a posek is notable per the "redlink rule" based on having an english language wikipedia page. There are 8 bluelinked poskim listed who have only english language wikipedia pages, whereas all 3 redlinks I have in mind to currently add but are being disallowed by an editor because of the redlink rule have Hebrew pages but no English pages. One of the three has pages in both hebrew and yiddish. The hebrew page states in its heading that he was "a halachic posek . . . famed for his many teshuvot" (my translation). Yiddish wikipedia says he was a "איז געווען א וועלטס פוסק" , "a wordly (renowned?) posek." But as per said editor, wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, the lack of an english language page is . . . ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 01:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads up. I will have to consider how to proceed, if at all. It is the "redlink" rule particularly that bothers me, not the idea of limiting the list. Using the "redlink" as the decisor (no pun intended) to limit the list, as I said, seemingly against Wikipedia "redlink" policy, is what bothers me. "Redlinks" are meant to bring attention to notable people who deserve Wikipedia pages, and in the case of the Rivevos Efraim, not only does he deserve an (English language) wikipedia page, he deserves to be listed on the list of poskim moreso than many who are listed due to having blue links, including a number of those who were listed before my recent additions. What about the idea from 5 years back about creating a separate "List of poskim" page, with lists by century or something like that? Does the consensus of 5 years ago of the the list being too long still hold when it is a more organized/streamlined/chronological list compared to when it was a long, random, disorganized list, as it was 5 years ago? 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 21:56, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
On delayed thought, your last comments re: consensus seem a bit disingenuous to me. I am not saying they are as such consciously, but they feel as such because of the following. Based on the edit history and the talk page, it seems to me that 5 years ago, there was no clear consensus on removing names from the list, and the consensus was (two to one) against the redlink rule. Thus, things were left as is. A year later, without any discussion reflected on the talk page as currently constituted, you unilaterally instituted the "redlink rule" and removed names from the list. This strikes me as being both against consensus, and ignoring wikipedias policy that redlinks should be kept in place for those validly mentioned, who also deserve a wikipedia page.
I would imagine, the status quo consensus should stand when it was achieved via the TALK page, not when it was achieved through going against the consensus a year later, when the dissenters were no longer active on the "posek" page.
You yourself, when this began, told me to see the TALK page. What is exhibited there is ambiguity regarding how to address the size of the list, and 2:1 against "redlink" rule (which, anyhow, should be invalid even if it was 100-0 for, as it is not wikipedias "redlink" policy, and consensus does not beat wikipedia guidelines and policy, as wikipedias consensus page states). Thus, based on the talk page, which is how i understand consensus is built, the consensus would still be against a "redlinkL rule, as would wikipedia policy, while the size of the list is still lacking consensus, even by you, as you accepted all my additions that had bluelinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 22:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
-There are two prongs to this. 1)Is it really consensus. 2) Even if it is, does the "redlink" rule as opposed to neutral reliable sources for determining importance violate wikipedia guidelines. As to 1), how do I contact IZAK to ask if his silence a year later was due to his agreeing with consensus, or not? 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 01:07, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
He had a Hebrew Wiki article; a hand-edited enhanced version of a translation of the Hebrew Wiki article is now part of English Wiki. Pi314m ( talk) 17:13, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Sir Joseph: I disagree with your statement that I should tag them instead of delete and deleting content does not do any good. Unsourced content basically has no status or value so deleting that does good to our readers as we keep information authentic and true. Burden and onus is on you to add the sources at the time you restore the questionable content. Restoring content which has been challenged without correcting the issue is against Wikipedia policies and if you do not stop this behavior, I will have no choice but to take you to ANI. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 17:47, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Kvod Harav Debresser, I think that to every orthodok Rav should be added "Rabbi".-- תנא קמא ( talk) 16:50, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
-- תנא קמא ( talk) 19:09, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
... or do we need a Posek/posek? Arminden ( talk) 10:12, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
The article makes no mention as to how one becomes or is appointed to be a Posek. Is this a self-appointed title, limited only by the recognition of the community? Or is there some formal process to become recognized as a Posek? Does this differ by branch of Judaism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.72.238.247 ( talk) 17:14, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
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RK: Your changes are mostly good, but I would keep some mention of "semicha" (along with an explanation of what it actually is). And also the test criteria put there by Ezra, although I guess the criteria should be attributed to the group they issue from, with maybe criteria of those other groups that have criteria added.
Also, from the perspective of a non-Jewish non-Hebrew-speaker, I find entries on things such as poskim interesting, so long as the meanings of all those words is explained, and the word denotes a concept specific to Judaism, as opposed to just the Hebrew word for such and such. --- Mon.
I removed the link to legal systems because, having followed my own link, it became clear that the role of case law and precedent differs by system - particularly civil law based systems as compared to common law based systems (see also stare decisis). I think it would be interesting if a lawyer or a student of jurisprudence would write about this here and / or in the Halakha article. Perhaps the legal systems article should also be linked to the Halakha article. Fintor talk December 5 13:44 UTC
I made 2 changes, I hope they are uncontroversial. Firstly, reform & reconstructionist do largely believe that e.g. the ten commandments have binding and normative character, so I felt it wasn't quite correct to say they don't accept Jewish law (implying any Jewish law) as binding.. only those on the extreme progressive wing, or in the very early days (19th century) of the Reform movement, might take that attitude. Second, it's true that Reform/Reconstructionist rabbinic training doesn't emphasise as much study of poskim and dinim, but I didn't agree with the reason given. After all, these movements believe that each individual must live by rules, which they derive, by whatever process, from the words of the Torah and the Oral Law, and this in my view constitutes a normative approach to law which Reform rabbis study profoundly (including study of traditional Jewish din). Feedback welcome. Zargulon 01:51, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I wrote "Rabbi" in front of R' Yosef' and R' Eliashiv's names, and added that decisions by the Conservative board of rabbis are somewhat respected in the Reform and Reconstructionist community but do not carry any signicance for Orthodox Jews, who do not recognize their authority. -- Daniel575 19:56, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I do not think that the articles should be merged, similar to the way Ecclesiastical court and canon are now separate. Avi 20:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
If no one disagrees, I will remove the merge tags. Avi 15:28, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
Regarding Askenazic Jewery in the US, wouldn't HaRav Dovid Feinstein be considered the Posek? Avi 20:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The problem with "decisor" is that there's no such word. It's not that the people who translate it that way are think it means something different, it's that they're making up a word for the same thing that everyone else says it means. -- Zsero ( talk) 13:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm trying to find the history on where the term and concept of the Posek came from? How does one become a Posek? What is the first known usage of the term? Is there a difference in Orthodox Judaism between the opinion of a rabbi and the opinion of a Posek? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.179.222.101 ( talk) 19:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry if this has been dredged up ad nauseaum before, but shouldn't we transliterate the plural form as 'Posekim'? The sheva under the samech is clearly na according to the classical rules. Savant1984 ( talk) 03:08, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Debresser. I have often found that the "language experts" on Wikipedia insist on spellings which are used only in scholarly books (e.g. halakha, semikhah), or which are so condensed and devoid of vowels as to be unidentifiable (e.g. shmita). Since scholars are probably not looking things up on Wikipedia, I suggest that our users are the everyday folks who say things like psak and poskim. I could offer a compromise: p'sak with an apostrophe would acknowledge the shva while not messing up the English pronunciation. Many readers would go ahead and pronounce your renderings of pesak and posekim totally the wrong way. Yoninah ( talk) 13:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
The only really relevant matter here is that the common English usage is "psak", not "pesak". Wikipedia doesn't "correct" common transliterations, it replicates them. Also, "pesak" is more likely to be pronounced as if it had a segol underneath it than a shva, and likely with the emphasis on that first syllable. As an alternative, you could use "p'sak", which will most likely produce the correct pronunciation. Jayjg (talk) 20:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Zargulon, as I understood it, the argument for using "pesak" was that it was the "correct" transliteration, likely to induce readers to use a proper sh'va na when saying it. My point was that it was more likely to produce an incorrect pronunciation (something like the way an English speaker might say "Pesach"), and that if that were the only consideration, then "p'sak" is the transliteration most likely to produce correct pronunciation. For that matter, English speakers almost invariably insert a sh'va na between the "p" and "s" when reading the word "psak". The least helpful transliteration in this case is "pesak". Combine that with the fact that "psak" is vastly more common usage, and it becomes clear that "pesak" is not a good transliteration to be using here. Jayjg (talk) 21:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
I essentially agree with Yoninah. There are at least two widely used academic transliteration systems we can use, and as I've indicated before in this discussion, this is of course a matter going well beyond the scope of this article. Again, the only thing I am steadfastly against is intentionally transliterating an incorrect (however popular) pronunciation. Savant1984 ( talk) 01:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Whoa, Debresser, I don't think we reached consensus here to go back to the pre-discussion spelling. If anything, it seems that (your dissent excepted) we reached consensus to use apostrophes. Savant1984 ( talk) 03:52, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Despite my oft-stated revulsion at the notion of intentionally transliterating for an incorrect, however common, pronunciation, the utter failure of the Great Apostrophe Compromise brings me to Yoninah's position: this argument (at least on this one page) is simply not worth the tsuris when I (and the rest of us) have far more productive things we could be doing, even on Wikipedia ( kal vachomer real life). This is a discussion for a standardising project with broad input and without the punchiness that comes with having it over a standing article. Savant1984 ( talk) 20:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Actually, there is a clear guideline on Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(Hebrew)#Vowels_and_shva that says that in order for a shva to be written as an "e" two conditions need to be fulfilled: it should be a shva na at the beginning of a word 2. is should be actually pronounced in modern Hebrew. The word "psak" fails the second criterion, and poskim the first. End of discussion. Debresser ( talk) 18:32, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
There should be no reason to exclude the names of known notable poskim from this article's lists on the grounds that "they don't have articles on WP about them" since that is no reason to be excluded from any article on WP. On the contrary, many articles start off because names are written down in those articles, quite often with "red links" as signs that they will get or deserve future articles, in the meantime having the names produces more comprehensive and encyclopedic information. IZAK ( talk) 01:59, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
As for Rabbi Yechezkel Roth, also known as the Karlsburg Rov, he's almost like a Chasidishe Rebbe with a very wide following and is a very famous former Satmar dayan, and presently has a yeshiva and bais din in Boro Park, Brooklyn where he is one of the leading elder poskim, no two ways about it. IZAK ( talk) 08:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
Since when are Chabad Chasidim going to "decide" who is or is not "famous" as a Rov or Posek when they don't know anyone outside their own little worlds?? Actually, most of the rabbis in Category:Chabad-Lubavitch rabbis are very minor figures (most of those articles should be put up for deletion as they violate the basics of not adhering to WP:NOTABLE and WP:BIO) that have been pumped up and fluffed up with PR but that in no way reflects their greatness as rabbis or anything for that matter. Watch out, the editorial sword cuts both ways. IZAK ( talk)
Debresser, point by point:
In brief, Artscroll is irrelevant where seeking definition of standards necessary to qualify as a posek. Generally the term is used when mentioning Halakhic authorities whose rulings are cited, respected, and considered throughout the halakhic world and who have also (generally) published and authored widely-quoted responsa. The names you keep inserting do not remotely qualify, though this may change with time, at which point it may be reconsidered. I further propose removing Mordechai Willig and Yitzchak Berkovits for exactly trhe same reason, and adding J David Bleich. Winchester2313 ( talk) 17:49, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
You fellows start the problems yourselves, so you only have yourselves to blame. Stop acting innocent. Stop harassing editors and edit warring at the Rav Shach-type articles and any topic that Chabad deems to be "enemies of Chabad"! For example, even though Orthodox editors do not agree with Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism you do NOT find them spending time attacking them and their notable people, as Chabad editors do with their "hate list" topics. It becomes very tiresome, and I must warn you that in the past when such behavior, with clear evidence of group editing taking place, that sooner or later the entire group will face the music. This is not just my imagination or prejudice talking, but please take a long hard look at what happened over the years with the: (1) Transcendental Meditation movement case; (2) Scientology case; (3) Lyndon LaRouche case; (4) CAMERA case and why the (5) Chabad movement case is similar and came dangerously close (for you) of serious measures against you. If you persist in your violations and threats and harassments with your pro-Chabad POV edit warring, you will leave me no choice but to reopen the case against you as you create an environment of hostility and insults that makes it impossible for other non-Chabad editors to tangle with you out of fear and the sheer drudgery of having to put up with your constant mischief making. I have a very simple word of advice for you, just remember, all the time, that Wikipedia is NOT Chabad.org! IZAK ( talk) 06:47, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
In addition I think it might me better to move the list of poskim to a separate article, List of Poskim e.g. Debresser ( talk) 13:33, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I disagree. An article about poskim needs to include (at least) a basic list of the prominent examples to be relevant. There are thousands of rabbis who rule on matters of halakha every day, only a few who have become recognition as a Posek beyond their respective local communities. Winchester2313 ( talk) 17:29, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I propose changing the subtitle from 'Living Poskim' to 'Leading Present-day Poskim' to add clarity to the significance of the list, and to make consensus easy to reach....? Winchester2313 ( talk) 17:58, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
As per this discussion, I've removed all but the most prominent and universally recognized poskim from the list. Winchester2313 ( talk) 16:20, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
User:Debresser, I don't very much care, but "decider" is extremely poor English. The word is "decisor". Same goes for the rest. AddMore der Zweite ( talk) 12:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)
Some IP editor wants to add redlinked poskim. I undid his edit a few times, and the next step is to simply protect this article from edits by IP users. The IP user in question is kindly requested to see the section above, where it was discussed that we have too many people in the "notable poskim" sections, and by way of compromise it was agreed to remove the redlinked ones. The reason is simple: if they don't have an article, they are likely less notable. I agree that guidelines allow to have redlinks, but when there is consensus that there are too many entries in a list, the redlinks are the obvious first choice to go out. This is also common in e.g. lists of actors in a "Cast" section. Debresser ( talk) 10:21, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
---"The reason is simple: if they don't have an article, they are likely less notable." This is an overly broad assumption, which becomes flawed when taken as a hard rule. There are Israeli poskim who have exponentially more influence, but being that their sphere of influence is either primarily in Israel, or merely starting to trickle to outside, they do not (currently) have English language Wikipedia pages. I added quite a number of names over this past week, without knowing about the "redlink" rule found here, and I will say, the two redlinked ones who keep getting removed are a lot more prominent than a lot of the blue linked ones I added in the past week (which is NOT to say, that those bluelinked ones are not notable. I am merely noting the flaw of taking bluelink=notable, redlink= not notable as a HARD rule). Rav Landau is the Ashkenaz Rav and Av Beit Din of Bnai Brak, a city of almost 200,000 Jews, the vast majority of which are Haredi, and with many prominent Rabbis living there. He is one of the biggest and most influential experts on Kashrut, and has one of the most notable hechserim in Israel.
Rav Rimon is not even 50 years old, but he is already Rav of Alon Shevut, home of one of the foundational and most influential Hesder and Dati Leumi yeshivot in the country (Yeshivat Har Etzion). He is rabbinic head of the Jewish college of technology and head of its beit midrash, founder and chairman of the Halacha Education Center, a former Rav at Yeshivat Har Etzion, and most importantly in the context of posek, author of over a dozen books on halacha, including works of shabbat, pesach, shemitta, purim meshulash, halachot of the idf, and more.
To say that Rav's Landau and Rimon are "not" notable Poskim because their (thus far) lack of English Wikipedia pages is highly problematic. Had I known about this red link rule, I would have much rather not added a lot of the names I added in the past week, and would rather have these two listed. A lot of those have blue links because of their notoriety in addition to being a posek (for example- they are notable as Rav of a city or Yeshiva, etc.) whereas these two are primarily notable as poskim. That in itself shows the flaw in the "redlink rule." Shmuley Boteach has semicha, and due to his notoriety due to his celebrity has a Wikipedia page. By that logic, if someone added him, he would not get a second glance since he has a blue link. Proof of that is that before I corrected Rav Landau to the correct (redlinked) one by putting his full name, Moshe Landau (same name, blue link) was on the posek page without any complaint before I noticed and changed it. That bluelink Moshe Landau who was there for, who knows how long, was a deceased secular Israeli, Supreme Court Justice, listed as a "leading" living posek, unnoticed by the "redlink" patrol police, who seems more interested in hard and fast nonsensical rules than a quality posek page and list of poskim.
Also, by using "redlink rule" as an arbitrary decisor for who to keep and who to cut seems to me to be against Wikipedia guidelines. Red links, when appropriate, are considered integral to helping Wikipedia grow, by bringing attention to notable figures who deserve wikipedia pages. By using redlinks as a justification of not listing someone even if they are otherwise qualified, or even more qualified that bluelinkes listed, one is flipping that logic on its head, and hurting the purpose of Wikipedia, basically saying, "we will NOT bring attention to help Wikipedia grow with those who deserve pages, b/c they do not currently have pages, and will instead perpetuate the names of those who already have pages." That is circular logic, and in the case of going forward in the future, as young names become known and notable (as is the case with Rav Rimon, who will get his English Wikipedia page one day, I am certain, until 120), they are "blacklisted" from the posek list, where perhaps they should be listed first, as that is their source of renown.
Also, now that the poskim list is more organized, broken down into pre-20th century, Orthodox, Non-Orthodox, and organized chronologically, maybe it is time to revisit the idea that the list is too long. It is much more organized, and no longer reads like a long random list without rhyme or reason.
(As an aside, in the Talk page a few years back, there were some swipes at the "Chabad" editor's ways and his "Chabadness". I too, am troubled by his ways, which smacks in the face of Wikipedia's rules and purposes on redlinks, but that is irrelevant of Chabad, and I want to note that 2 of the 3 poskim of mine he keeps removing due to being redlinked (one erroneously) are associated with Chabad.)- anonymous editor, 11/22/2015
Just realized, one of the greatest poskim of recent times is "black listed" from being mentioned here, as he would be "red linked", so despite him being allowed (and in fact encouraged) to be listed based on Wikipedia standards and protocol, that does not seem to be sufficient for this page. I refer to Rav Efraim Greenblatt (1932-2014), talmid muvhak of Rav Moshe Feinstein, author of the heralded ten-volume Shailos Uteshuvos Rivevos Ephraim, an encyclopedic work with thousands of teshuvos addressing virtually every topic in contemporary halacha. He also authored the two-volume Rivevos Ephraim Al Hatorah, the two-volume Rivevos V’Yovlos, and numerous teshuvos and articles published in Torah journals and other publications. See http://matzav.com/the-revivos-ephraim-rav-ephraim-greenblatt-ztl/ , http://hamodia.com/2014/01/05/harav-ephraim-greenblatt-ztl/ , http://www.torahmusings.com/2014/01/a-gentle-giant/ , http://www.ravaviner.com/2014/01/ha-rav-ha-gaon-r-ephraim-greenblatt.html , http://faithinmemphis.com/2014/01/rabbi-efraim-greenblatt-1932-2014/ , and https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%90%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%92%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%91%D7%9C%D7%98 .
An extremely noted posek according to Haredi, modox, and hardal websites and rebbeim, as evidenced by the links above, and by Hebrew Wikipedia, but because he is a redlink, Debresser might report me if I add him, in line with wikipedia standards, to the list of prominent poskim? Explanation please?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.2.168.100 ( talk • contribs)
Ok, I will stop the whining for now. Closing thoughts- Seriously, though, my main issue is that your shita on this seems to fly in the face of wikipedia policy, and smacks of laziness. (We can not come up with universal criteria, so blue link it will be, and I will not even notice when a deceased secular Israeli supreme court justice is listed as a noted living posek, because he has a blue link, yay! And when someone comes along and corrects that to the right person, the rav of bnai brak, he finall gets removed, because now he is red linked.
Also, note that by your red link rule, Rav Menashe Klein author of over 20 volumes of original shaailos u teshuvos, only become a noted posek a few months before his death at age 87, as that was when a Wikipedia page was finally created for him.
Finally, I question whether you "damn well know your poskim" now that you admit you never heard of The Rivevos Efraim, not to mention some people you had not heard of earlier on the talk page. I guess any joe shmoe is universally seen as a talmid muvhak of rav moshe, authors ten volumes of orignal shaailos u teshuvos, and is respected and quoted by both american and israeli haredim, tzionim, modox, chabad (quoted in a halachic teshuva by http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1342409/jewish/Do-I-Say-Kaddish-Again.htm ) (or http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=news&id=68746 which claims the Rebbe corresponded with him), etc, with lavish eulogies by all streams of Judaism noting his gadlus as a posek. Which, by the way, actually follows Wikipedia policy for gettign recognized, not the anti-Wikipedia policy redlink rule you are enforcing.
Why don't you actually do some research, read the links I posted about him, (as per actual wikipedia policy) and begin to "damn well know your poskim."
And lookie lookie who published in a journal in honor of the Rebbe in 1984? Rav Moshe, Rav Yaakov Kamenetsky, rav zalman nechemia goldberg, rav menashe klein, rav pinchas hirschprung (who you also removed a few times) and, none other than Rav Efrayim Greenblat (who you never heard of!) See page 355 of "Turning Judaism Outwards" by Chaim Miller, here https://books.google.com/books?id=z8MNBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA355&lpg=PA355&dq=schneerson+efraim+greenblatt&source=bl&ots=WZd6m4Nu2Q&sig=7Av2tn9YtB9DQ_0yA1Zjx4EpgK4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiajdbi26XJAhUBVj4KHd1LAAoQ6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=schneerson%20efraim%20greenblatt&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 04:23, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
-Perhaps there is something I am not getting. I am an amateur editor. But I have not understood any of your responses to be Wikipedia policy valid. Can you please explain, or I will consider filing a disruptive editor complaint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 04:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps I missed it, when was the consensus reached? I edited. You changed it. I changed it back explaining the reason based on Wikipedia policy (which includes redlinks and outside sources, not original research). You changed it back explaining the red link rule (against wiki policy) and using your own original research (based on who YOU know and see as qualified, outside sources be ******. The fact that you think the rivevos efraim is a nobody, makes me speechless. Needless to say, you would NEVER be hired by a print encyclopedia as an expert/editor on poskim) As far as I see, you are the consensus? I checked the talk page, and all I saw was a similar argument 5 years back, with more posters arguing against the redlink rule and only you arguing for it. Is that consensus? You threatened to block IP users from editing, which blocks the ability to build consensus, which is what forces me to go the complaint filing route. Also, your own arguments are hypocritical, because YOU yourself (as per the talk page dated 2010) wrote about "known" poskim "Doesn't start to compare with Shmuel Wosner who is know in all of the Hareidi world, or Moshe Landau the chief rabbi of Bnei Brak, and whose hechsher is known around the world." So apparently, your "quality" editing decisions allowed a deceased secular chief justice of Israel be bluelinked for years as a noted living posek, becasue you deemed someone with the same name notable, but now that I, instantly discovered that to be the wrong person and fixed it, all of a sudden he is redlinked, and I guess no longer notable, despite your claims of 5 years ago.
So I do not see that consensus, and even if it is there and I am unaware of it, consensus is not #1 in wikipedia order of editing operations/priorities. If it were, ignoramuses or those with political agendas could run amok over wikipedia. It is consensus among unbiased experts in the topic, basing themselves on outside sources and NOT original research.
And your talk of undue weight is ridiculous when your own redlink rule disallows the rivevos efraim, while listing blue link Ephraim Padwa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 20:49, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
I'd be more than happy to go the consensus route, rather than reporting, but after you said " Editor is asked for the last time to stop edit warring, or they will be reported," and your claim that your view is consensus, I felt I have no choice. Can we try to go the consensus route instead? Can I add the redlink rivevos efraim, and we will see what the consensus on that is? How is "I never heard of him" consensus and NOT original research? B'H, you have the gaava to say anyone you never heard of is not noteworthy. Guess you didn't learn the mussar from rashi who said "I don't know" countless times in his writings. Time to learn more mesilat yesharim my friend, and after 120, I am sure the rivevos efraim, in the room learning torah with all the bluelinks as peers, will kindly introduce himself to you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 21:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
Things got a little testy, so let's reset, and just TALK it out. Point by point-
QUOTE- "I already wrote above that you should read the section above this one, where the same subject was discussed."
RESPONSE- I read that section, and I do not see a consensus in your favor, rather the opposite, and would appreciate a clarification. IZAK and Yehoishophot Oliver both disagreed with the redlink rule, which only you were arguing for. Winchester2313 agreed that the list should be more limited, but made no statement either way regarding the redlink rule, merely wanting a tighter list. So in terms of the redlink rule, it was 2 against, and 1 for, and the consensus would seem to be against it. IZAK made the last edits relating to the discussion on 25 October 2010, as per the then consensus. Almost a year later, 14 September 2011, Debresser edits and removes redlinks, despite the 2:1 talk page consensus of a year earlier being against it, and with the TALK page as currently constituted not showing any further TALK/discussion on the issue. This leads me to believe the new redlink rule was instituted unilaterally, without consensus, based on the fact that a year ealier the consensus was the opposite, the one making the edits was the one in the minority the year before, and there is no further TALK on the topic.
QUOTE- "This "redlink" rule, as you call it, is not against any Wikipedia policy or guideline, and your blind insistence on repeating untrue statements doesn't help."
RESPONSE- According to Wikipedia:Red link "In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article, or article section, under any name. Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on the subject, or if the red link could be replaced with a link to an article section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic." Thus, the redlink rule, as used here, is against Wikipedia policy.
QUOTE- "WP:CONSENSUS is a Wikipedia policy, not just a guideline, and might well be considered to be the main rule of Wikipedia, as a matter of fact."
RESPONSE- As I said above, I do not see the consensus, and would appreciate if you pointed it out to me. Past requests to do so have directed me to this talk page, and to look above. As I just noted a couple of paragraphs up, I saw 3 people whether directly or indirectly, discuss the redlink rule, 2 of whom were against it, so I do not see the consensus anyhow.
Now, even if you were, theoretically, correct about the consensus, the WP:CONSENSUS page itself says "Consensus refers to the primary way decisions are made on Wikipedia, and it is accepted as the best method to achieve our goals, i. e., to achieve our five pillars. Consensus on Wikipedia does not mean unanimity (which, although an ideal result, is not always achievable); nor is it the result of a vote. Decision-making involves an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines." Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines states that "Wikipedia has many policies and guidelines about encyclopedic content. These standards require verifiability, neutrality, respect for living people, and more." The red link rule is not verifiable or neutral. It is an over-broad, blanket, generalization. This can be seen by the fact that a deceased secular Israeli justice was listed for 5 years as a notable posek, overlooked because of the redlink rule, as he had a bluelink, while the actual posek he was confused for, is now kicked off due to being a redlink. That was not based on verifiability and neutrality. Wikipedia:Verifiability states that "verifiability means that anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source." Within seconds, I found over a half dozen, extremely diverse, reliable sources for the statement that the rivevos efraim was a very notable posek, despite his having a redlink.
QUOTE- "As I said, I am a rabbi myself, and I know who are this generations poskim."
RESPONSE- That is a conclusory statement. Wikipedia:No original research states that ""original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist." I understand you will likely not find sources saying who is NOT a noted posek, but you are denying a plethora of diverse, reliable, published resources for someone who is a noted posek.
By the way, here is another conclusory statement, for illustrative purposes(apologies) (which happens to be have really happened), in recent days, regarding our discussion, I spoke to two professional men who I am acquainted with who are doing semicha on the side, one in his late 20s, one in his early 30s, one affiliated with YU, and one diverse, having had affiliation with Torah V Daas, Gush, and Chabad, both very serious, intelligent folk, and told them about this Rabbi who never heard of Feivel Cohen, the Rivevos Efraim, or Rav Rimon. The nicer one giggled. The harsher one said "he is an am ha'aretz." (Note, one heard of all 3 of them, one heard of two of them, but did not say "since I never heard of him, he must not be great" but rather expressed curiosity about learning more about him). I am hoping that you can see how basing Wikipedia editing policy on the conclusory suggestion that you are "an am ha'aretz" is not proper Wikipedia policy. I am not basing my thoughts on that conclusory statement. I am basing it on indepedent, verifiable, reliable sources, as per Wikipedia policy. I merely share it with you to showcase the irrelevance of your conclusory statement. The Rabbi of my shul never heard of someone from the list of poskim until I mentioned him to my Rav a few months ago. By your logic, that posek should be removed from the list of poskim. One final conclusory statement that I am reminded of by yours. (Apologies again). I have a mesorah from my Rosh Yeshiva, who says (only slightly paraphrased, to give over in print his orally made point more accurately) "any rabbi who thinks he knows everything, is not a real rabbi, and stay far away"
QUOTE- "Regarding consensus in this specific case. The two of us disagree, so consensus stays as it was. That is the rule."
RESPONSE- Again, looking at the talk page, where you directed me to see the consensus, I saw the previous consensus to not be on your side. Based on what I saw on Determining consensus, I am unsure about where or when your consensus was reached, and again, I would appreciate being directed to it.
Thank you 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 01:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Would like to note one further thought about the bluelink rule for determining notability. I think there will be little disagreement that 95-99% of psak written throughout history have been written in Hebrew/Lashon Hakadoseh. Yet a posek is notable per the "redlink rule" based on having an english language wikipedia page. There are 8 bluelinked poskim listed who have only english language wikipedia pages, whereas all 3 redlinks I have in mind to currently add but are being disallowed by an editor because of the redlink rule have Hebrew pages but no English pages. One of the three has pages in both hebrew and yiddish. The hebrew page states in its heading that he was "a halachic posek . . . famed for his many teshuvot" (my translation). Yiddish wikipedia says he was a "איז געווען א וועלטס פוסק" , "a wordly (renowned?) posek." But as per said editor, wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, the lack of an english language page is . . . ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 01:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the heads up. I will have to consider how to proceed, if at all. It is the "redlink" rule particularly that bothers me, not the idea of limiting the list. Using the "redlink" as the decisor (no pun intended) to limit the list, as I said, seemingly against Wikipedia "redlink" policy, is what bothers me. "Redlinks" are meant to bring attention to notable people who deserve Wikipedia pages, and in the case of the Rivevos Efraim, not only does he deserve an (English language) wikipedia page, he deserves to be listed on the list of poskim moreso than many who are listed due to having blue links, including a number of those who were listed before my recent additions. What about the idea from 5 years back about creating a separate "List of poskim" page, with lists by century or something like that? Does the consensus of 5 years ago of the the list being too long still hold when it is a more organized/streamlined/chronological list compared to when it was a long, random, disorganized list, as it was 5 years ago? 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 21:56, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
On delayed thought, your last comments re: consensus seem a bit disingenuous to me. I am not saying they are as such consciously, but they feel as such because of the following. Based on the edit history and the talk page, it seems to me that 5 years ago, there was no clear consensus on removing names from the list, and the consensus was (two to one) against the redlink rule. Thus, things were left as is. A year later, without any discussion reflected on the talk page as currently constituted, you unilaterally instituted the "redlink rule" and removed names from the list. This strikes me as being both against consensus, and ignoring wikipedias policy that redlinks should be kept in place for those validly mentioned, who also deserve a wikipedia page.
I would imagine, the status quo consensus should stand when it was achieved via the TALK page, not when it was achieved through going against the consensus a year later, when the dissenters were no longer active on the "posek" page.
You yourself, when this began, told me to see the TALK page. What is exhibited there is ambiguity regarding how to address the size of the list, and 2:1 against "redlink" rule (which, anyhow, should be invalid even if it was 100-0 for, as it is not wikipedias "redlink" policy, and consensus does not beat wikipedia guidelines and policy, as wikipedias consensus page states). Thus, based on the talk page, which is how i understand consensus is built, the consensus would still be against a "redlinkL rule, as would wikipedia policy, while the size of the list is still lacking consensus, even by you, as you accepted all my additions that had bluelinks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 22:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
-There are two prongs to this. 1)Is it really consensus. 2) Even if it is, does the "redlink" rule as opposed to neutral reliable sources for determining importance violate wikipedia guidelines. As to 1), how do I contact IZAK to ask if his silence a year later was due to his agreeing with consensus, or not? 24.187.198.162 ( talk) 01:07, 26 November 2015 (UTC)
He had a Hebrew Wiki article; a hand-edited enhanced version of a translation of the Hebrew Wiki article is now part of English Wiki. Pi314m ( talk) 17:13, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
@ Sir Joseph: I disagree with your statement that I should tag them instead of delete and deleting content does not do any good. Unsourced content basically has no status or value so deleting that does good to our readers as we keep information authentic and true. Burden and onus is on you to add the sources at the time you restore the questionable content. Restoring content which has been challenged without correcting the issue is against Wikipedia policies and if you do not stop this behavior, I will have no choice but to take you to ANI. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 17:47, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Kvod Harav Debresser, I think that to every orthodok Rav should be added "Rabbi".-- תנא קמא ( talk) 16:50, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
-- תנא קמא ( talk) 19:09, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
... or do we need a Posek/posek? Arminden ( talk) 10:12, 20 March 2020 (UTC)
The article makes no mention as to how one becomes or is appointed to be a Posek. Is this a self-appointed title, limited only by the recognition of the community? Or is there some formal process to become recognized as a Posek? Does this differ by branch of Judaism? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.72.238.247 ( talk) 17:14, 19 April 2022 (UTC)