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A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 24, 2010, December 24, 2011, and December 24, 2015. |
Whatever one might think about Boniface VIII this article seems to take a decidedly negative slant towards him and can hardly be considered objective mainly due to its use of modifiers in a few key places. Note especially the phrases "meddled incessantly", and "so resentful" which can easily be construed as expressing an opinion. Also the "process against memory" section should include a caveat that those proceedings appear, historically speaking, to be politically motivated and that it is likely that many of those sayings were conjured up by persons with an axe to grind. Boniface was an extremely controversial pope in his own era and even to this day and made many enemies. That should be taken into account here. -- Kurtkoeh 17:00, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Who said he committed suicide? That would be a big deal. But people under stress actually do harm themselves, knowingly or otherwise: biting nails, pulling out hair, cutting. Vicedomino ( talk) 08:05, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
This phrase falls oddly on my ear. Could it be from a non-native-speaker trying to render posthumous trial? In some languages the word for "trial" is cognate with "process".
OTOH I don't know much about Roman Catholic canon law; maybe they do have something called a "process against the memory". -- Trovatore 00:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The article states:
"No subsequent popes were to repeat Boniface VIII's claims of political supremacy."
While it's true that with Boniface VIII papal claims of superiority over temporal leaders reached their apogee (as set out in the bull "Unam Sanctam"), did not John XXII repeat these claims in his dispute with Emperor Louis IV?-- qp10qp 19:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I can handle the expansion, give me a day or so. -- Treva 18:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The article sometimes uses Benedetto and sometimes Benedict as his birth name. Which is more correct? It should be made consistent, or the inconsistencies should be explained. Alienmercy 03:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it necessary to repeat all of these here? I would expect that an inquest into his memory, conducted at a time when the papacy was under the thumb of Boniface's enemy, the King of France, would hardly be objective. It would suit such an inquiry rather well to have various heterodox or heretical quotes attributed to the late Pope. While I have no doubt that the commission did indeed record these quotes as being attributed to Boniface, I do have doubts about whether he actually held these views. To include them in this article, some justification should be given, particularly as the only scholarly opinion advanced is actually dubious on whether Boniface held any of these views.
If am tempted to amend that section if no further justification can be given. -- Iacobus 02:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It should be at least mentioned that Boniface had Celestine imprisoned for 10 months before his death. L H M 23:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
The intro says Today, he is probably best remembered for his feuds with Dante, who placed him in the Eighth Circle of Hell in his Divina Commedia, among the simonists.
I believe that this sentence is POV when it is placed in the intro of the article. It is also somewhat inaccurate, because most people remember him for the bull Unam Sanctam and for the conflict with Philip the Fair rather than what Dante might have said about him.
76.67.157.61 ( talk)
According to Jay Charles, The Evolution of the Bible, 2006 ( http://books.google.com/books?id=mgqyPtjqc0wC): "Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) Was a true power mongrel [sic], he had whole towns murdered, tortured thousands of innocent women and children, and ruled through fear. He actually had every man, woman, child and animal massacred in the Italian town of Palestrina in 1298." If this is true, it's probably worth incorporating in the article. Mark314159 ( talk) 14:21, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
The phrase "the first in of many such jubilees take place in Rome" is completely meaningless. It looks as if something got deleted by mistake, but of course I can't tell what it might have been. 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 21:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
The text makes absolute nonsense. I refer to, "Boniface VIII had arranged that this would be done to offset the fact that his predecessor was still alive, which caused him to worry that the legitimacy of his own papacy would be thrown into doubt. In choosing such a burial, Boniface VIII was trying to show that he was a legitimate pope with the implicit support from the grave of a popular predecessor, Boniface IV." If his predecessor, Celestine V, were still alive, the tomb would have had to have been chosen within the first seventeen months of Boniface's reign, since Celestine died on May 23, 1296. But the fact is, that we do not know when Boniface chose his burial place. "...this would be done..." is ambiguous. What, exactly, did Boniface arrange to have done? The fact is that popes were regularly buried in S. Peter's and it is often mentioned in the Liber Pontificalis that a pope was buried in Such-and-such Chapel, next to the body of Pope So-and-so. Such proximity did not confer posthumous legitimacy--ever. I propose that the offending sentence be removed. By the way, the date of the exhumation was wrong; I fixed it and added the documentary source. Vicedomino ( talk) 01:18, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
I propose the removal of the phrase, "...which would develop into the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas, Angelicum in the 20th century...", on the grounds that it has nothing to do with Boniface VIII or anything he did, nor does it refer to the XIII or XIV centuries in which he lived. Vicedomino ( talk) 01:28, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
Done Vicedomino ( talk) 00:44, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
The phrase "... a time of expanding nation states ..." is wildly anachronistic. Boniface lived at the height of the age of Feudalism. Nobody thought in terms of 'nation states'. Indeed the papacy and the Emperor were two institutions which worked against the idea of individual nations. The contest was between the two swords, religious and civil, Church and Empire, and whether they were coordinate, or one was supreme. Italy and Rome in particular were beginning to enjoy the (quite ancient) idea of city-states. I suggest that the phrase be deleted. Vicedomino ( talk) 03:35, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
An editor deletes the following statement:
The grounds for deletion are (1) POV Catholic; (2) anachronistic, since the definition quoted is a mid-19th century one. One doesn't judge the opinions of 14th century people based on 19th century considerations. For an exposition of earlier views, and a wider range of opinion, see, e.g.: Peter Le Page Renouf (1868). The Condemnation of Pope Honorious. New York: Longmans, Green.
I suggest that the sentence be returned to the text.
-- Vicedomino ( talk) 19:56, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Pope Boniface VIII's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bbc":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:18, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Dumb-ass question from somebody who is not a specialist in this period:
Why does the near-contemporary picture of him on his deathbed show him as having had his hands cut off? Paulturtle ( talk) 05:40, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Pope Boniface VIII was a LGBT Roman Catholic pope. That should be sorted in category.
-- 188.96.230.248 ( talk) 20:55, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
He was accused of sodomy by Philip IV. That is the only fact mentioned in your link. Defamatory statements by one's enemies at a posthumous show trial are not generally considered authoritative. 24.182.239.226 ( talk) 08:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on December 24, 2010, December 24, 2011, and December 24, 2015. |
Whatever one might think about Boniface VIII this article seems to take a decidedly negative slant towards him and can hardly be considered objective mainly due to its use of modifiers in a few key places. Note especially the phrases "meddled incessantly", and "so resentful" which can easily be construed as expressing an opinion. Also the "process against memory" section should include a caveat that those proceedings appear, historically speaking, to be politically motivated and that it is likely that many of those sayings were conjured up by persons with an axe to grind. Boniface was an extremely controversial pope in his own era and even to this day and made many enemies. That should be taken into account here. -- Kurtkoeh 17:00, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Who said he committed suicide? That would be a big deal. But people under stress actually do harm themselves, knowingly or otherwise: biting nails, pulling out hair, cutting. Vicedomino ( talk) 08:05, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
This phrase falls oddly on my ear. Could it be from a non-native-speaker trying to render posthumous trial? In some languages the word for "trial" is cognate with "process".
OTOH I don't know much about Roman Catholic canon law; maybe they do have something called a "process against the memory". -- Trovatore 00:45, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
The article states:
"No subsequent popes were to repeat Boniface VIII's claims of political supremacy."
While it's true that with Boniface VIII papal claims of superiority over temporal leaders reached their apogee (as set out in the bull "Unam Sanctam"), did not John XXII repeat these claims in his dispute with Emperor Louis IV?-- qp10qp 19:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
I can handle the expansion, give me a day or so. -- Treva 18:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The article sometimes uses Benedetto and sometimes Benedict as his birth name. Which is more correct? It should be made consistent, or the inconsistencies should be explained. Alienmercy 03:42, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it necessary to repeat all of these here? I would expect that an inquest into his memory, conducted at a time when the papacy was under the thumb of Boniface's enemy, the King of France, would hardly be objective. It would suit such an inquiry rather well to have various heterodox or heretical quotes attributed to the late Pope. While I have no doubt that the commission did indeed record these quotes as being attributed to Boniface, I do have doubts about whether he actually held these views. To include them in this article, some justification should be given, particularly as the only scholarly opinion advanced is actually dubious on whether Boniface held any of these views.
If am tempted to amend that section if no further justification can be given. -- Iacobus 02:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
It should be at least mentioned that Boniface had Celestine imprisoned for 10 months before his death. L H M 23:13, 23 April 2012 (UTC)
The intro says Today, he is probably best remembered for his feuds with Dante, who placed him in the Eighth Circle of Hell in his Divina Commedia, among the simonists.
I believe that this sentence is POV when it is placed in the intro of the article. It is also somewhat inaccurate, because most people remember him for the bull Unam Sanctam and for the conflict with Philip the Fair rather than what Dante might have said about him.
76.67.157.61 ( talk)
According to Jay Charles, The Evolution of the Bible, 2006 ( http://books.google.com/books?id=mgqyPtjqc0wC): "Pope Boniface VIII (1294-1303) Was a true power mongrel [sic], he had whole towns murdered, tortured thousands of innocent women and children, and ruled through fear. He actually had every man, woman, child and animal massacred in the Italian town of Palestrina in 1298." If this is true, it's probably worth incorporating in the article. Mark314159 ( talk) 14:21, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
The phrase "the first in of many such jubilees take place in Rome" is completely meaningless. It looks as if something got deleted by mistake, but of course I can't tell what it might have been. 213.127.210.95 ( talk) 21:46, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
The text makes absolute nonsense. I refer to, "Boniface VIII had arranged that this would be done to offset the fact that his predecessor was still alive, which caused him to worry that the legitimacy of his own papacy would be thrown into doubt. In choosing such a burial, Boniface VIII was trying to show that he was a legitimate pope with the implicit support from the grave of a popular predecessor, Boniface IV." If his predecessor, Celestine V, were still alive, the tomb would have had to have been chosen within the first seventeen months of Boniface's reign, since Celestine died on May 23, 1296. But the fact is, that we do not know when Boniface chose his burial place. "...this would be done..." is ambiguous. What, exactly, did Boniface arrange to have done? The fact is that popes were regularly buried in S. Peter's and it is often mentioned in the Liber Pontificalis that a pope was buried in Such-and-such Chapel, next to the body of Pope So-and-so. Such proximity did not confer posthumous legitimacy--ever. I propose that the offending sentence be removed. By the way, the date of the exhumation was wrong; I fixed it and added the documentary source. Vicedomino ( talk) 01:18, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
I propose the removal of the phrase, "...which would develop into the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas, Angelicum in the 20th century...", on the grounds that it has nothing to do with Boniface VIII or anything he did, nor does it refer to the XIII or XIV centuries in which he lived. Vicedomino ( talk) 01:28, 29 October 2015 (UTC)
Done Vicedomino ( talk) 00:44, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
The phrase "... a time of expanding nation states ..." is wildly anachronistic. Boniface lived at the height of the age of Feudalism. Nobody thought in terms of 'nation states'. Indeed the papacy and the Emperor were two institutions which worked against the idea of individual nations. The contest was between the two swords, religious and civil, Church and Empire, and whether they were coordinate, or one was supreme. Italy and Rome in particular were beginning to enjoy the (quite ancient) idea of city-states. I suggest that the phrase be deleted. Vicedomino ( talk) 03:35, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
An editor deletes the following statement:
The grounds for deletion are (1) POV Catholic; (2) anachronistic, since the definition quoted is a mid-19th century one. One doesn't judge the opinions of 14th century people based on 19th century considerations. For an exposition of earlier views, and a wider range of opinion, see, e.g.: Peter Le Page Renouf (1868). The Condemnation of Pope Honorious. New York: Longmans, Green.
I suggest that the sentence be returned to the text.
-- Vicedomino ( talk) 19:56, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Pope Boniface VIII's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "bbc":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 16:18, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
Dumb-ass question from somebody who is not a specialist in this period:
Why does the near-contemporary picture of him on his deathbed show him as having had his hands cut off? Paulturtle ( talk) 05:40, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Pope Boniface VIII was a LGBT Roman Catholic pope. That should be sorted in category.
-- 188.96.230.248 ( talk) 20:55, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
He was accused of sodomy by Philip IV. That is the only fact mentioned in your link. Defamatory statements by one's enemies at a posthumous show trial are not generally considered authoritative. 24.182.239.226 ( talk) 08:12, 31 August 2021 (UTC)