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When is Poila Baisakh in the Gregorian calendar ? -- 199.71.174.100 00:10, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Should we mark this as Pohela Boishakh? Pahela Baishakh? -- Ragib 15:27, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Right now the title says Pohela Baishakh and the article describes Poila Boishakh. The transliteration in parentheses, following the
Romanization of Bengali is Pôela Boishakh. Can we be consistent, at least between the title and each reference in the article? I know why it's difficult:
But still, we can come up with something, right? My vote is to not include the diacritics, but otherwise be as close to the standard Bengali pronunciation as possible, giving Poela Boishakh. (I'm assuming it's usually pronounced Pôela Boishakh.) -- SameerKhan 18:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Besides Pohela Baishak, is the Bengali calendar really used in Bangladesh? Would the average person know what the current Bengali day/month is, or is the Islamic calendar the more common? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.174.10.252 ( talk • contribs)
I decided to switch the title to Pohela Boishakh, based both on the Romanization of Bengali (minus the diacritic on pôhela) and on a Google search. Here are the results of that:
Even though the top hit was "Pohela Baishakh" (probably due to the fact that the Wikipedia article was called this at the time), I feel that "Pohela Boishakh" would be more appropriate. If we're using an "o" for the ô pôhela, we should definitely use an "o" for the o in boishakh, I feel. -- SameerKhan ( talk) 19:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! -- SameerKhan ( talk) 19:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
@ Akib.H: Please stick to community agreed content guidelines such as verifiability in WP:RS, and do not edit war nor cherrypick. This is a Hindu new year for Bengalis in India, while a cultural new year in Bangladesh, per the sources. We need to reflect all sides, per WP:NPOV. If you have concerns, please explain. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 17:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Actually in your warring, you only added one:
I just checked the source, and the source does not verify this on pages 96-98. I see a discussion of Bengali calendar, Akbar and uncertainty of its origin, but not the claim that "Bengali new year, broadly celebrated by all Bengalis". Is it on another page, or can you provide a quote like the way I did? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:31, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
References
I'm very much astonished to see the ownership of article being imposed by User:Ms Sarah Welch. She has provided counter argument for the Mughal Origins theory which is fine. But when I added the counter argument for the Hindu origins theory she simply reverted calling it unsourced when I actually added a source. The author is talking about Pahela Baishakh in that source, there is nothing OR or synthesize. Bangla san or Bangla sal means Bengali Calendar. I would urge Ms Welch to study the topic properly and refrain from edit warring and discuss it here. Akib.H ( talk) 23:22, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
If the exact quote is misleading, then perhaps you have concerns with the source? Interpreting or drawing new conclusions that the source does not state is WP:OR. Adding exact quote, as I did, is the best we can do in the case of dispute on what it means. We just leave it to the reader. Your frustration, agenda or background is not the concern of this article, nor helpful. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:18, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Somebody added that Muslim women perform Durga puja on Pohela Baishakh. I'm a Bengali living in Bangladesh and I've never seen or heard any women, Muslim or Hindu, performing Durga Puja on Pohela Baishakh. There is indeed a source, added to verify the information but it's inaccessible for me. The source though seems to be focused on some other topic and I'm not sure if it could be applicable here.
This is just one example of enormous misleading information in this article based on vague sources. I would urge people well-informed about the topic to contribute in this article and save it from becoming a garbage. Akib.H ( talk) 23:38, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
@Akib.H: Please explain the misleading tag. What is misleading and how is it misleading given what the source states? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:15, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Akib.H:The article does not state anywhere that anyone performs Durga Puja on Pahela Baishakh. The article just states, "Many Muslim Bengali women, states Tripathi, wear saris, bindi (a mark on their forehead, religious to Hindu women), perform pujo (prayers) to Hindu goddess Durga, and usher in Poyla Baisakh to celebrate Bengali new year." This means that Muslim Bengali women, over the year, cherish their non-Islamic heritage such as by wearing certain clothing, celebrating Durga puja, celebrating Poyla Baisakh, according to Tripathi. The Tripathi source has been published by Yale University Press, so it is RS. If you have an English handicap, please contact the help desk. Or, if you would prefer that wikipedia add clarifying language that Durga Puja is not celebrated on Pahela Baishakh, we can add some language as a compromise. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 13:47, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Ms Sarah Welch: The publishing house used for a book does nothing to add to reliability of a source. This whole content is undue, the book is not about Pahela Baishakh. This article is not about Durga Puja. If you still want to add controversial and incendiary content, that accuse Muslims of committing Puja please have more than one reliable source. I am inclined to believe this is not even reliable source itself considering the book title is from a news article the author wrote in the 1980s. Performming Puja and celebrating puja is not the same thing. You are not improving this article or the content by adding controversial information with weak citation. Vinegarymass911 ( talk) 14:02, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@Vinegarymass911: If you have understand the NPOV policy, then you know this article cannot take sides or present/emphasize just the Bangladeshi side or the Indian side or any particular author. The book by Salil Tripathi – a fellow at the Kennedy School (Harvard University) – published by Yale University Press qualifies as WP:RS. So our best compromise is to use the exact quote from Tripathi. I did a quick check. I am able to find many additional RS that support the part about Bengali Muslim women, saris, bindi, celebrating Buddhist or Hindu festivals, etc. If you find reliable sources that state Bengali/Bangladeshi Muslim women never wear saris, never wear bindi, never celebrate what Salil Tripathi states, etc.... per NPOV, we can summarize that too. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 16:57, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@Vinegarymass911: I already stated above I am okay with "celebrate", instead of "perform". Further, I am willing to consider re-organizing the "Historical background" section, if we can maintain NPOV. Let me reflect on it a bit. If you have proposals and suggestions, please share. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:03, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Update: I finished reading through several additional sources on the Bengali calendar not yet cited in this article. These WP:RS suggest the Historical background section has POV issues. It has been overly one sided, presenting mostly the views of Bangladeshi/Muslim authors and sources. It ignores publications on Bengali calendar by Indian/non-South Asian/Buddhist/Hindu/other authors and sources. This section needs trimming / balancing for NPOV. We need to focus on the subject of this article, the festival. I expect to have a re-org proposal within the next 24 hours for discussion and comments. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:32, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is a draft. This is consistent with WP:CFORK and WP:SUMMARYSTYLE guidelines of wikipedia. The footnotes will contain more details.
Pahela Baishakh is a festival that celebrates the first day of every year according to the Bengali calendar. The history of the Bengali calendar and its origins are unclear.[12][13] Some historians, particularly from Bangladesh, credit the origin of the Bengali calendar to the Islamic rule period of Bengal after 13th-century, attributing it to the tax collection policies of either Akbar or Nawab Murshid Quli Khan or others.[11][12][footnote 1] Some historians, particularly from India, credit its origin to the 7th-century king Shashanka and its shared roots to the ancient Hindu calendars found in India and Nepal.[12][13][footnote 2]
According to some historians, the Bengali festival of Pahela Baishakh is related to the traditional Hindu New Year festival called Vaisakhi, and other names, in the rest of India on or about the same dates.[3][15][16] Vaishakhi is an ancient harvest festival of India, particularly the Punjab region.[17][18][19] Vaisakhi, also spelled Baisakhi, is observed by both Hindus and Sikhs.[20]
The current Bengali calendar in use in the Indian states is based on the Sanskrit text Surya Siddhanta. It retains the historic Sanskrit names of the months, with the first month as Baishakh.[10] Their calendar remains tied to the Hindu calendar system and is used to set the various Bengali Hindu festivals. For Bengalis of West Bengal and other Indian states, the festival falls either on 14 or 15 April every year.[10]
In Bangladesh, however, the old Bengali calendar was modified in 1966 by a committee headed by Muhammad Shahidullah, making the first five months 31 days long, rest 30 days each, with the month of Falgun adjusted to 31 days in every leap year.[10] This was officially adopted by Bangladesh in 1987. Since then, the national calendar starts with and the new year festival always falls on 14 April in Bangladesh.[10]
Comments welcome. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:48, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
@Akib.H: Quit these strange accusations, allegations and OR! Your suggestions ignore / suppress the views published by numerous Indian and non-South Asian scholars. This is the article about Pahela Baishaikh festival, not an article on the controversies about the Bengali calendar. For more on why this is important, see my explanation above. You have not offered one source yet that states that one or more Muslims invented this festival, please do not try to imply that. Nor are sources stating that Hindus or Buddhists or someone else invented this festival. We shouldn't imply either, with a one sided discussion of the calendar's origin. Its origins are unclear, is the most neutral version, and is supported by the sources. I too prefer a short footnote, but if the article contains an undue long discussion about "Muslim history related to Bengali calendar", then we need an equally balancing presentation of "non-Muslim history related to Bengali calendar" that properly reflect scholarly secondary and tertiary sources. For reasons, please see WP:NPOV guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is the short form:
I am open to avoiding the use of footnotes, and placing all of the above in the main article. Comments and revised drafts welcome, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page, so others can comment and participate...
References
I'm adding a synthesis tag to the section. I've gone through the previous sections in this talk page and understand that this article has been a field of some edit wars and disputes, so refraining from removing/adding any contents. However, certain concerns remain to be addressed,
The section seems to be a synthesis of different loosely-related sources and texts being stitched together to demonstrate the so called 'Hindu origin' of Pahela Baishakh. That's a classic example of original research. -- Zayeem (talk) 12:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
One spelling is wrong, 'Vikramaditya'. In origins section, The king Shasanka section has been completely deleted by someone Soumya Sekhar Biswas ( talk) 08:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
This page needs a thorough look by an academic and a neutral outsider. It is full of tenuous information, that while backed with citations, can also be contested with reference to other academic citations.
The Bengali New Year falls on the same day or thereabouts as the traditional new year in diverse places such as Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Punjab, Orissa, North Bihar, Tulunaad in Karnataka and Assam. To attribute the holiday solely to Akbar’s alleged tax and calendar reforms is simplistic. While it may accord with political undercurrents in Bangladesh, one can not ignore textual evidence that goes back several centuries before Akbar. I refer to the Surya Siddhanta.
I also note that the information is skewed where alternate views on the Vikramaditya calendar are sparse. Previous information on that topic was either deleted or relegated to the footnotes.
On a related subject but untied to Akbar’s alleged calendar reforms, I had tried to include cursory reference to other countries and regions where the holiday was celebrated on the very same day. I provided the citations. My edits were promptly reverted by Tithi Sarkar who claimed that they were irrelevant.
For reasons of full disclosure, I am not Indian. This is not about the Hindu or Muslim origins of a calendar. Its about providing space for different academic interpretations in equal measure as long as they are supported by robust citations. Dipendra2007 ( talk) 17:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
This is Pahela Baishakh. Why are you writing about Vikrami Calendar here? There is no Pahela Baishakh celebration in Vikrami Calendar. Please understand that Bengali Calendar and Vikrami Calendar are two different things. There were different calendars used in Bengal at different times, but celebration of Pahela Baishakh began when the new Bengali calendar was adopted during the Mughal rule. This is the only fact, you don't need create new absurd "theories".
To the anonymous commentator above, I hear you on the term "Vikrami". I therefore replaced that with the term "Indic" even though April 14 is the start of the solar Vikrami calendar. Earlier versions of the page had the term "Hindu origins theory". That's one other term one can use.
Regardless, the Bengali New Year coincides with the New Year in Sri Lanka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Nepal, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Punjab, Orissa, North Bihar, Tulunaad in Karnataka and Assam. It is derived from the solar calendar and existed long before Akbar. The citations have been included.
I did not delete nor touch any reference to the Mughal origins theory. I merely reinstated earlier text on the Hindu origins theory aka Vikramaditya or Bikramaditto. The page should include reference to different points of view. Dipendra2007 ( talk) 22:03, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Just changing the term and proposing absurd theories is ludicrous. Hindu time keeping is a fascinating topic but this article is about Pahela Baishakh. Can you point me any source which argue that Pahela Baishakh celebration existed in those ancient times before Mughal Empire? Please keep the article on Pahela Baishakh celebration not on irrelevant analysis on calendars and time keeping, I'm sure there are other relevant articles on Wikipedia where you can write those analysis but not here.
Hello anonymous IP number Do check the citations provided in the material that I had restored. I repeat that I did not insert that material. I only restored material what other editors had incorporated and backed up evidence and citations. Please read the citations. There's lots of evidence that the new year in mid-April was celebrated in Bengal in pre-Mughal times. I refer to Bengal under Shashanka and to the Pala Empire. Dipendra2007 ( talk) 03:53, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Dipendra2007 ( talk) , the source you provided is showing error from my location. However, since you're adament on having Vikrami calendar to this article, you can see "South and South East Asian Solar New Year" is already added on the "related to" section on the info box. Hence no need to go on a long paragraph about other "Indic" festivals.Citations doesn't change the fact that Vikrami calendar and other Indic festivals are irrelevant to this article. I read all the citations, and it says regardless of Bengali calendar origin, the celebration and traditional of Haal Khata (account book) of new year was started during mughal era for tax collection purposes. Even to this day, this is celebrated widely in Bangladesh for tax collection purposes whereas it's celebrated only at home in Indian States of West Bengal.
Please don't add irrelevant junk, respect other users, give preference to the majoritarian view and abide by wikipedia guidelines. Okaymishti ( talk) 07:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Dipendra, please do not lie. Your sources don't mention anything about Pahela Baishakh, they only talk about the ancient calendars that existed before Mughal era. This article is about Pahela Baishakh and I repeat, please do not include these irrelevant analysis of calendars here.
This page earlier had material supported by robust citations on the Bengali calendar being linked to King Shashanka, the inscriptions in two Siva temples, the reference to the Pala dynasty and to Buddhist sources, all of which point to a pre-Mughal origin of the first day of the year. Further, the New Year is celebrated on the same day or one day apart in several other regions in South and South East Asia. This points to common origins of the calendar and the holiday linked to the Surya Siddhanta and to pre-Mughal tradition.
I did not delete any reference to the school of thought that posits a Mughal origin to the holiday. I only reinstated material previously in the page since 2017 on the Hindu or Indic origins also referred to as Bikramaditto in Bengali or Vikramaditya in Sanskrit. There are two schools of thought of the origins of the holiday - Mughal and Hindu. You have chosen to exclusively delete material pertaining to the latter. Let's not call it junk or a lie or irrelevant. Look at the conversation on this Talk Page since April 2017. The issue needs to be addressed. The controversy continues and needs resolution. This page needs independent review Dipendra2007 ( talk) 00:32, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
No Dipendra, you are still confusing history of calendar with history of Pahela Baishakh celebration. What you are saying is the history of calendar before the Mughal era in Bengal, there is no denying that some calendar existed before the Mughals came, but the celebration of Pahela Baishakh began only during the Mughal era. Your sources only talk about that history of calendar, not about the history of Pahela Baishakh celebration, so they are irrelevant here. If the earlier users added irrelevant content to the article it doesn't mean you need to restore them, a mistake is a mistake.
Yes, IP Address: 2600:8806:2708:D400:B1E5:CE1B:AF70:25D3, I agree with you. There were some type of calendar which existed prior to Mughal era. But the officialization of Bengali calendar and celebration on it's New Year started during Mughal Era only(it's correct according to the sources too). Plus this is a page about Pahela Baishakh, not Bengali calendar. Tithi.sarkar ( talk) 08:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Dipendra2007 ( talk) 00:32, I actually agree with you on keeping the Shashanka and Bikromaditto theory and sources related to itself. But adding descriptions about other Indic festivals and Vaishakhi is truly a stretch. Plus some sources you added only talks about the pre existing calendar in Bengal and not the celebration of Pahela Baishakh itself. A user reading this page would want to know about Pahela Baishakh, otherwise they could've chosen to read the article about Bengali calendar on Wikipedia.To make Wikipedia user friendly we need to be clean and straight to the point rather than having irrelevant stuff. If you think the festivals you mentioned are related to Pahela Baishakh, then check "Related to" section on the info box which clearly mentions and added to a Wikipedia page about south and southeast asian new years. Hence it's completely unnecessary to add about other Indic festivals in the middle of Pahela Baishakh Tithi.sarkar ( talk) 08:32, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Tithi
I will restore the references to Shashank to begin with then for now and let's take it from there. Dipendra2007 ( talk) 16:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Tithi
I saw your edits. I have one question. Are we 100% sure that the celebration of Pahela Baishakh started with Akbar? That it was not celebrated before? Is there consensus amongst scholars on that? Nitish Sengupta does not appear to think so. This is relevant to the second paragraph of the Pahela Baishakh page. Best regards, Dipendra2007 ( talk) 20:01, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://www.getbengal.com/details/haalkhata-the-intrinsic-poila-baisakh-tradition. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. -- Asartea Talk | Contribs 12:20, 23 May 2021 (UTC)
There are lots of different spelling variants, pohela, pahela, poyla, poila, foyla but the article should be consistent with its spelling. It is also incorrect to say that in India only the spelling Poila is used. There are many indian sources which use Pohela in their reports.
https://www.news18.com/lifestyle/pohela-boishakh-2023-history-significance-rituals-and-celebrations-of-bengali-new-year-7552003.html 2600:4040:4766:4800:85A3:CEDE:37B0:4030 ( talk) 21:52, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
User:Fylindfotberserk look at it
Second most common name is Pahela Boishakh, see "Pahela boishakh"
If you have don't have consensus then how come you came to a conclusion that Poila is the second most common name? Your sources also don't confirm that, as you can see there are also lots of sources using Pahela. If you don't have any confirmation then don't come to a conclusion that Poila is the second most common name. I hope you understand.
I agree with the current version. Thank you.
A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on 10 dates. show |
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level-5 vital article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
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Pakistan, and
Afghanistan, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
When is Poila Baisakh in the Gregorian calendar ? -- 199.71.174.100 00:10, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Should we mark this as Pohela Boishakh? Pahela Baishakh? -- Ragib 15:27, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Right now the title says Pohela Baishakh and the article describes Poila Boishakh. The transliteration in parentheses, following the
Romanization of Bengali is Pôela Boishakh. Can we be consistent, at least between the title and each reference in the article? I know why it's difficult:
But still, we can come up with something, right? My vote is to not include the diacritics, but otherwise be as close to the standard Bengali pronunciation as possible, giving Poela Boishakh. (I'm assuming it's usually pronounced Pôela Boishakh.) -- SameerKhan 18:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Besides Pohela Baishak, is the Bengali calendar really used in Bangladesh? Would the average person know what the current Bengali day/month is, or is the Islamic calendar the more common? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.174.10.252 ( talk • contribs)
I decided to switch the title to Pohela Boishakh, based both on the Romanization of Bengali (minus the diacritic on pôhela) and on a Google search. Here are the results of that:
Even though the top hit was "Pohela Baishakh" (probably due to the fact that the Wikipedia article was called this at the time), I feel that "Pohela Boishakh" would be more appropriate. If we're using an "o" for the ô pôhela, we should definitely use an "o" for the o in boishakh, I feel. -- SameerKhan ( talk) 19:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! -- SameerKhan ( talk) 19:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
@ Akib.H: Please stick to community agreed content guidelines such as verifiability in WP:RS, and do not edit war nor cherrypick. This is a Hindu new year for Bengalis in India, while a cultural new year in Bangladesh, per the sources. We need to reflect all sides, per WP:NPOV. If you have concerns, please explain. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 17:18, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Actually in your warring, you only added one:
I just checked the source, and the source does not verify this on pages 96-98. I see a discussion of Bengali calendar, Akbar and uncertainty of its origin, but not the claim that "Bengali new year, broadly celebrated by all Bengalis". Is it on another page, or can you provide a quote like the way I did? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:31, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
References
I'm very much astonished to see the ownership of article being imposed by User:Ms Sarah Welch. She has provided counter argument for the Mughal Origins theory which is fine. But when I added the counter argument for the Hindu origins theory she simply reverted calling it unsourced when I actually added a source. The author is talking about Pahela Baishakh in that source, there is nothing OR or synthesize. Bangla san or Bangla sal means Bengali Calendar. I would urge Ms Welch to study the topic properly and refrain from edit warring and discuss it here. Akib.H ( talk) 23:22, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
If the exact quote is misleading, then perhaps you have concerns with the source? Interpreting or drawing new conclusions that the source does not state is WP:OR. Adding exact quote, as I did, is the best we can do in the case of dispute on what it means. We just leave it to the reader. Your frustration, agenda or background is not the concern of this article, nor helpful. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:18, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Somebody added that Muslim women perform Durga puja on Pohela Baishakh. I'm a Bengali living in Bangladesh and I've never seen or heard any women, Muslim or Hindu, performing Durga Puja on Pohela Baishakh. There is indeed a source, added to verify the information but it's inaccessible for me. The source though seems to be focused on some other topic and I'm not sure if it could be applicable here.
This is just one example of enormous misleading information in this article based on vague sources. I would urge people well-informed about the topic to contribute in this article and save it from becoming a garbage. Akib.H ( talk) 23:38, 14 April 2017 (UTC)
@Akib.H: Please explain the misleading tag. What is misleading and how is it misleading given what the source states? Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:15, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Akib.H:The article does not state anywhere that anyone performs Durga Puja on Pahela Baishakh. The article just states, "Many Muslim Bengali women, states Tripathi, wear saris, bindi (a mark on their forehead, religious to Hindu women), perform pujo (prayers) to Hindu goddess Durga, and usher in Poyla Baisakh to celebrate Bengali new year." This means that Muslim Bengali women, over the year, cherish their non-Islamic heritage such as by wearing certain clothing, celebrating Durga puja, celebrating Poyla Baisakh, according to Tripathi. The Tripathi source has been published by Yale University Press, so it is RS. If you have an English handicap, please contact the help desk. Or, if you would prefer that wikipedia add clarifying language that Durga Puja is not celebrated on Pahela Baishakh, we can add some language as a compromise. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 13:47, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@ Ms Sarah Welch: The publishing house used for a book does nothing to add to reliability of a source. This whole content is undue, the book is not about Pahela Baishakh. This article is not about Durga Puja. If you still want to add controversial and incendiary content, that accuse Muslims of committing Puja please have more than one reliable source. I am inclined to believe this is not even reliable source itself considering the book title is from a news article the author wrote in the 1980s. Performming Puja and celebrating puja is not the same thing. You are not improving this article or the content by adding controversial information with weak citation. Vinegarymass911 ( talk) 14:02, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@Vinegarymass911: If you have understand the NPOV policy, then you know this article cannot take sides or present/emphasize just the Bangladeshi side or the Indian side or any particular author. The book by Salil Tripathi – a fellow at the Kennedy School (Harvard University) – published by Yale University Press qualifies as WP:RS. So our best compromise is to use the exact quote from Tripathi. I did a quick check. I am able to find many additional RS that support the part about Bengali Muslim women, saris, bindi, celebrating Buddhist or Hindu festivals, etc. If you find reliable sources that state Bengali/Bangladeshi Muslim women never wear saris, never wear bindi, never celebrate what Salil Tripathi states, etc.... per NPOV, we can summarize that too. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 16:57, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
@Vinegarymass911: I already stated above I am okay with "celebrate", instead of "perform". Further, I am willing to consider re-organizing the "Historical background" section, if we can maintain NPOV. Let me reflect on it a bit. If you have proposals and suggestions, please share. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 18:03, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Update: I finished reading through several additional sources on the Bengali calendar not yet cited in this article. These WP:RS suggest the Historical background section has POV issues. It has been overly one sided, presenting mostly the views of Bangladeshi/Muslim authors and sources. It ignores publications on Bengali calendar by Indian/non-South Asian/Buddhist/Hindu/other authors and sources. This section needs trimming / balancing for NPOV. We need to focus on the subject of this article, the festival. I expect to have a re-org proposal within the next 24 hours for discussion and comments. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 00:32, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is a draft. This is consistent with WP:CFORK and WP:SUMMARYSTYLE guidelines of wikipedia. The footnotes will contain more details.
Pahela Baishakh is a festival that celebrates the first day of every year according to the Bengali calendar. The history of the Bengali calendar and its origins are unclear.[12][13] Some historians, particularly from Bangladesh, credit the origin of the Bengali calendar to the Islamic rule period of Bengal after 13th-century, attributing it to the tax collection policies of either Akbar or Nawab Murshid Quli Khan or others.[11][12][footnote 1] Some historians, particularly from India, credit its origin to the 7th-century king Shashanka and its shared roots to the ancient Hindu calendars found in India and Nepal.[12][13][footnote 2]
According to some historians, the Bengali festival of Pahela Baishakh is related to the traditional Hindu New Year festival called Vaisakhi, and other names, in the rest of India on or about the same dates.[3][15][16] Vaishakhi is an ancient harvest festival of India, particularly the Punjab region.[17][18][19] Vaisakhi, also spelled Baisakhi, is observed by both Hindus and Sikhs.[20]
The current Bengali calendar in use in the Indian states is based on the Sanskrit text Surya Siddhanta. It retains the historic Sanskrit names of the months, with the first month as Baishakh.[10] Their calendar remains tied to the Hindu calendar system and is used to set the various Bengali Hindu festivals. For Bengalis of West Bengal and other Indian states, the festival falls either on 14 or 15 April every year.[10]
In Bangladesh, however, the old Bengali calendar was modified in 1966 by a committee headed by Muhammad Shahidullah, making the first five months 31 days long, rest 30 days each, with the month of Falgun adjusted to 31 days in every leap year.[10] This was officially adopted by Bangladesh in 1987. Since then, the national calendar starts with and the new year festival always falls on 14 April in Bangladesh.[10]
Comments welcome. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:48, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
@Akib.H: Quit these strange accusations, allegations and OR! Your suggestions ignore / suppress the views published by numerous Indian and non-South Asian scholars. This is the article about Pahela Baishaikh festival, not an article on the controversies about the Bengali calendar. For more on why this is important, see my explanation above. You have not offered one source yet that states that one or more Muslims invented this festival, please do not try to imply that. Nor are sources stating that Hindus or Buddhists or someone else invented this festival. We shouldn't imply either, with a one sided discussion of the calendar's origin. Its origins are unclear, is the most neutral version, and is supported by the sources. I too prefer a short footnote, but if the article contains an undue long discussion about "Muslim history related to Bengali calendar", then we need an equally balancing presentation of "non-Muslim history related to Bengali calendar" that properly reflect scholarly secondary and tertiary sources. For reasons, please see WP:NPOV guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 14:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Here is the short form:
I am open to avoiding the use of footnotes, and placing all of the above in the main article. Comments and revised drafts welcome, Ms Sarah Welch ( talk) 15:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page, so others can comment and participate...
References
I'm adding a synthesis tag to the section. I've gone through the previous sections in this talk page and understand that this article has been a field of some edit wars and disputes, so refraining from removing/adding any contents. However, certain concerns remain to be addressed,
The section seems to be a synthesis of different loosely-related sources and texts being stitched together to demonstrate the so called 'Hindu origin' of Pahela Baishakh. That's a classic example of original research. -- Zayeem (talk) 12:39, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
One spelling is wrong, 'Vikramaditya'. In origins section, The king Shasanka section has been completely deleted by someone Soumya Sekhar Biswas ( talk) 08:45, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
This page needs a thorough look by an academic and a neutral outsider. It is full of tenuous information, that while backed with citations, can also be contested with reference to other academic citations.
The Bengali New Year falls on the same day or thereabouts as the traditional new year in diverse places such as Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Punjab, Orissa, North Bihar, Tulunaad in Karnataka and Assam. To attribute the holiday solely to Akbar’s alleged tax and calendar reforms is simplistic. While it may accord with political undercurrents in Bangladesh, one can not ignore textual evidence that goes back several centuries before Akbar. I refer to the Surya Siddhanta.
I also note that the information is skewed where alternate views on the Vikramaditya calendar are sparse. Previous information on that topic was either deleted or relegated to the footnotes.
On a related subject but untied to Akbar’s alleged calendar reforms, I had tried to include cursory reference to other countries and regions where the holiday was celebrated on the very same day. I provided the citations. My edits were promptly reverted by Tithi Sarkar who claimed that they were irrelevant.
For reasons of full disclosure, I am not Indian. This is not about the Hindu or Muslim origins of a calendar. Its about providing space for different academic interpretations in equal measure as long as they are supported by robust citations. Dipendra2007 ( talk) 17:43, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
This is Pahela Baishakh. Why are you writing about Vikrami Calendar here? There is no Pahela Baishakh celebration in Vikrami Calendar. Please understand that Bengali Calendar and Vikrami Calendar are two different things. There were different calendars used in Bengal at different times, but celebration of Pahela Baishakh began when the new Bengali calendar was adopted during the Mughal rule. This is the only fact, you don't need create new absurd "theories".
To the anonymous commentator above, I hear you on the term "Vikrami". I therefore replaced that with the term "Indic" even though April 14 is the start of the solar Vikrami calendar. Earlier versions of the page had the term "Hindu origins theory". That's one other term one can use.
Regardless, the Bengali New Year coincides with the New Year in Sri Lanka, Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Nepal, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, Myanmar, Punjab, Orissa, North Bihar, Tulunaad in Karnataka and Assam. It is derived from the solar calendar and existed long before Akbar. The citations have been included.
I did not delete nor touch any reference to the Mughal origins theory. I merely reinstated earlier text on the Hindu origins theory aka Vikramaditya or Bikramaditto. The page should include reference to different points of view. Dipendra2007 ( talk) 22:03, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
Just changing the term and proposing absurd theories is ludicrous. Hindu time keeping is a fascinating topic but this article is about Pahela Baishakh. Can you point me any source which argue that Pahela Baishakh celebration existed in those ancient times before Mughal Empire? Please keep the article on Pahela Baishakh celebration not on irrelevant analysis on calendars and time keeping, I'm sure there are other relevant articles on Wikipedia where you can write those analysis but not here.
Hello anonymous IP number Do check the citations provided in the material that I had restored. I repeat that I did not insert that material. I only restored material what other editors had incorporated and backed up evidence and citations. Please read the citations. There's lots of evidence that the new year in mid-April was celebrated in Bengal in pre-Mughal times. I refer to Bengal under Shashanka and to the Pala Empire. Dipendra2007 ( talk) 03:53, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Dipendra2007 ( talk) , the source you provided is showing error from my location. However, since you're adament on having Vikrami calendar to this article, you can see "South and South East Asian Solar New Year" is already added on the "related to" section on the info box. Hence no need to go on a long paragraph about other "Indic" festivals.Citations doesn't change the fact that Vikrami calendar and other Indic festivals are irrelevant to this article. I read all the citations, and it says regardless of Bengali calendar origin, the celebration and traditional of Haal Khata (account book) of new year was started during mughal era for tax collection purposes. Even to this day, this is celebrated widely in Bangladesh for tax collection purposes whereas it's celebrated only at home in Indian States of West Bengal.
Please don't add irrelevant junk, respect other users, give preference to the majoritarian view and abide by wikipedia guidelines. Okaymishti ( talk) 07:43, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
Dipendra, please do not lie. Your sources don't mention anything about Pahela Baishakh, they only talk about the ancient calendars that existed before Mughal era. This article is about Pahela Baishakh and I repeat, please do not include these irrelevant analysis of calendars here.
This page earlier had material supported by robust citations on the Bengali calendar being linked to King Shashanka, the inscriptions in two Siva temples, the reference to the Pala dynasty and to Buddhist sources, all of which point to a pre-Mughal origin of the first day of the year. Further, the New Year is celebrated on the same day or one day apart in several other regions in South and South East Asia. This points to common origins of the calendar and the holiday linked to the Surya Siddhanta and to pre-Mughal tradition.
I did not delete any reference to the school of thought that posits a Mughal origin to the holiday. I only reinstated material previously in the page since 2017 on the Hindu or Indic origins also referred to as Bikramaditto in Bengali or Vikramaditya in Sanskrit. There are two schools of thought of the origins of the holiday - Mughal and Hindu. You have chosen to exclusively delete material pertaining to the latter. Let's not call it junk or a lie or irrelevant. Look at the conversation on this Talk Page since April 2017. The issue needs to be addressed. The controversy continues and needs resolution. This page needs independent review Dipendra2007 ( talk) 00:32, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
No Dipendra, you are still confusing history of calendar with history of Pahela Baishakh celebration. What you are saying is the history of calendar before the Mughal era in Bengal, there is no denying that some calendar existed before the Mughals came, but the celebration of Pahela Baishakh began only during the Mughal era. Your sources only talk about that history of calendar, not about the history of Pahela Baishakh celebration, so they are irrelevant here. If the earlier users added irrelevant content to the article it doesn't mean you need to restore them, a mistake is a mistake.
Yes, IP Address: 2600:8806:2708:D400:B1E5:CE1B:AF70:25D3, I agree with you. There were some type of calendar which existed prior to Mughal era. But the officialization of Bengali calendar and celebration on it's New Year started during Mughal Era only(it's correct according to the sources too). Plus this is a page about Pahela Baishakh, not Bengali calendar. Tithi.sarkar ( talk) 08:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Dipendra2007 ( talk) 00:32, I actually agree with you on keeping the Shashanka and Bikromaditto theory and sources related to itself. But adding descriptions about other Indic festivals and Vaishakhi is truly a stretch. Plus some sources you added only talks about the pre existing calendar in Bengal and not the celebration of Pahela Baishakh itself. A user reading this page would want to know about Pahela Baishakh, otherwise they could've chosen to read the article about Bengali calendar on Wikipedia.To make Wikipedia user friendly we need to be clean and straight to the point rather than having irrelevant stuff. If you think the festivals you mentioned are related to Pahela Baishakh, then check "Related to" section on the info box which clearly mentions and added to a Wikipedia page about south and southeast asian new years. Hence it's completely unnecessary to add about other Indic festivals in the middle of Pahela Baishakh Tithi.sarkar ( talk) 08:32, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Tithi
I will restore the references to Shashank to begin with then for now and let's take it from there. Dipendra2007 ( talk) 16:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
Tithi
I saw your edits. I have one question. Are we 100% sure that the celebration of Pahela Baishakh started with Akbar? That it was not celebrated before? Is there consensus amongst scholars on that? Nitish Sengupta does not appear to think so. This is relevant to the second paragraph of the Pahela Baishakh page. Best regards, Dipendra2007 ( talk) 20:01, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: https://www.getbengal.com/details/haalkhata-the-intrinsic-poila-baisakh-tradition. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)
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There are lots of different spelling variants, pohela, pahela, poyla, poila, foyla but the article should be consistent with its spelling. It is also incorrect to say that in India only the spelling Poila is used. There are many indian sources which use Pohela in their reports.
https://www.news18.com/lifestyle/pohela-boishakh-2023-history-significance-rituals-and-celebrations-of-bengali-new-year-7552003.html 2600:4040:4766:4800:85A3:CEDE:37B0:4030 ( talk) 21:52, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
User:Fylindfotberserk look at it
Second most common name is Pahela Boishakh, see "Pahela boishakh"
If you have don't have consensus then how come you came to a conclusion that Poila is the second most common name? Your sources also don't confirm that, as you can see there are also lots of sources using Pahela. If you don't have any confirmation then don't come to a conclusion that Poila is the second most common name. I hope you understand.
I agree with the current version. Thank you.