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Moved to "Zeitoun", about twice as many Google hits as "Zeitun".
Tualha 02:42, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Details of Tualha's 16 Nov edit:
Was basically an ad for OP's website and severely POV. NPOV, "alleged", shortened, cut encomium and official statements, added pic.
Issues:
Tualha 04:13, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Postscript: I realize the article is rather apparition-heavy and Zeitoun-light, but I haven't been able to find anything on the web about the town except apparition pages. I think this is the best way to handle it - start out saying it's a town and why it's worth putting in the wiki, then focus on its claim to fame.
Tualha 04:40, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
What interested me the most is that seemingly we don't have any photos taken in plain light of the day! Curious, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.61.113 ( talk) 22:37, 23 January 2005 (UTC)
I added two references. They are very thin brochures, and probably nowhere to get, except in their (complete?) form on the 'Zeitoun Web Gallery. It's a bit double, because this website is already in the External Links section, but I thought it makes sense, also because the two texts are not readily found there. Main question: Is this enough to cover the 'citation needed' request in the article? I have assumed that it is and removed the request. Geke 18:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I work for an evangelical & reformed seminary library and have an original copy of Pearl Zaki's "Our Lord's Mother visits Egypt in 1968." I discovered it in a box of book sale donations. It is a book (115 pages), not a thin brochure. The information on the website is only an excerpt of the text. Also included in the book is an image of "the Egyptian Gazette" article from April 11, 1969. I've entered the citations needed from pages 27 and 25 respectively. -- Wmmars 06:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to lack neutrality. It only cites information from theistic sources.
I also have problems with the contribution on 'polarisation' of one of the photographs. No information about the process is provided. Furthermore I suspect that the contributor of this text is the person who is named, Vincent Ruello, and that this constitutes self-promotion. He seems to sell religious paintings and refers to the wikipedia article on his web page here: http://www.conexarte.com/Vincent-Ruello-Painting.html
There would seem to be an issue with the credibility of the source, at the very least.
Is it okay if I write a "Criticisms" section for this article? Danmav ( talk) 05:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok here we go I am not promoting my painting on conex and never mentioned it. I take offense Danvam at you saying it is not scholarly. I am the first person to use Polarisation to reveal detail in the 2 authentic pictures of Our lady Of Zeitoun taken by Ali Ibrahim. Before I explain polarisation yes I am film maker a video maker of music clips am also a musician. The polarisation technique I used involved altering the angles of light hitting the photographs and then using a microscopic film programme on the images and then re filming it. Look at the 3 clips on youtube that is my evidence of what I have done. Look at the polarisation of the hand and the clarity. In the photos you can see no hand at all. This was taken from the photo above the roof. Look at the other 2 clips posted on youtube and the great detail of the new images of parts of marys face holding baby Jesus. I have developed this technique and am horrified that you have deleted the paragraph without my consent. If this is the way you treat people who discover things I want no part of wikipedia. My discovery is as ground breaking as the revealing of images on the Shroud of Turin and my name Vincent Ruello had to go in the paragraph because I have revealed the fine detail in those 2 photographs which were previously just undetailed images of light. If the consesus here is to remove my scientific work and major discovery in Our Lady Of Light so be it but my work has now been published and will gain ground and be respected for what I have done. Sincerely Vincent Ruello Australia and lastly my appologies, my 3 clips of the work I did for the benefit of other wikipedia members can be seen at youtube, user name vinnypop search Mary Zeitoun and my 3 clips will appear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.219 ( talk) 13:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Well I used a scientific process and have revealed hidden images so how is it unscientic, science reveals hidden facts I have revealed the face of Mary the face of baby Jesus a close up of Marys hand the fine detail on her clothing, hidden shades and textures and all totally true and un doctored are you accusing me of being a liar. I have explained the process of Polarisation in the technique I used. Please leave the following information here so other wikipedians can see my work do not delete this title let others see my work Danmav Youtube search Mary Zeitoun Polarisation: There are 3 clips 1. The Roof Side Angle Photo Polarisation 2. The floating apparition Photo Face Of Mary Baby Jesus Revealed and 3. Close Up Polarisation of Hand. Thankyou Danman and no hard feelings I understand your intensity in only writing the truth so its ok. Ps yes I am an artist and did paint Our Lady from the images my technique revealed. I ask other wikipedians and admin to reload my paragraph of my MAJOR discovery I have revealed the face of Mary and baby Jesus, this is major and spiritually immense you have no right to stifle this fantastic news from the world Danman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.219 ( talk) 15:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Thankyou Danmav that sounds very reasonable and expected and I must comply if it is to be accepted here which would be a great honor for me. To begin with, the pictures I used were not the paintings which there are many. Before I undertook the experiment I chose the only 2 photographs taken by Ali Ibrahim, the image floating in front of the roof and the image taken from below looking up where Our Lady Of Light is sideways on what looks like the balcony. I went to the official site of the actual Church and verified that these were infact actual photographs before I applied the technique. I can reproduce the results before anyone. Ok I will add a section in article on Polarisation in as much detail as I can without compromising my intellectual copyright to the process which has great benefit in being used as a photo identification and authentication system so I need to be careful how I reveal things. Will also look into finding an expert in this field who could spare time to see what and how I did it and will get back here with more answers. Sincerely Vince. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.46 ( talk) 14:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Polarisation Of Photographs 2 photographs(originals? from what source?) taken(when?) by Ali Ibrahim(who is he?) and verified(by who?) as actual photos from The Church website were used in March 2009 by a film maker in Australia experimenting with altering light waves on images and photos. Unseen details were revealed, the face, hand in close up and clothing of the lady in the image as well as her holding a dark haired baby (currently under scrutiny and investigation(by who?)). This is currently being discussed in the discussion section. The technique used is simple. The image of the photograph is placed at an angle where less light hits it(where does polarisation come into it?). It is refilmed and then placed in a programme which zooms into the new image and refilmed again. A second angular filming with less light is done and a final refilming. It now appears as a fact(speculation) which can be verified before any scientific body(but hasn't been done!) that using less light on certain objects that are as per say exploding in light(speculation) such as the photographs taken by Ali Ibrahim will reveal hidden detail not seen by the naked eye(opinion, not fact). The 3 clips can be seen on youtube search Mary Zeitoun Polarisation(COI blatant advertising!), with a scientific report to follow with results and outcomes published here asap(must be done first!). (This section on Polarisation was added with permission of a senior wikipedia archivist(who?).) Danmav ( talk) 13:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
You Danmav arent you a senior wiki person ? hmmmmmmm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.136 ( talk) 17:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Danmav you havent proven its a drawing whatsoever it is just your saying that and furthermore my polarisation technique proves it is not a drawing because the hidden images that are revealed are real and not drawings, the neuatrality required here should be against you as you are assuming everything. I repeat again the 2 photos taken by Ali Ibrahim have been stated to be photographgs by the actual church website, they also do have a section of drawings but my work centred on their section of ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPHS so this is all we have to go on not what you assume, what have you stated in the main article nothing you just say these are drawings but your wrong. I dont have to prove anything anymore. The photos have been credited to Ali Ibrahim...he exists he is real, they did not credit drawings to him but if you do not believe the actual church website its all a waste of time argueing with you as I find you totally biased towards the left on this issue and you lack evidence. Ali Ibrahim is the evidence what do you have to prove otherwise NOTHING goodday to you sir. Vincent Ruello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.248 ( talk) 15:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Was removed,written from a POV perspective,it has to be non-biased from a neutral perspective.On another note a photo of the apparition needs to be added. Sheodred ( talk) 14:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
How is that relevant to its authenticity?"There is no record that Pope Kyrillos, head of the Coptic Church in Alexandria, ever visited the Church of Saint Mary in Zeitoun up to his death in 1971, to personally view the phenomenon."
This is not neutral and the manner in which it is written supports a personal POV."“Since then the church has become the object of nightly vigil by thousands of Cairenes, with the standard accompaniment of popcorn and chick-pea vendors, and there have been repeated but somewhat contradictory report[sic] of appearances."
A case,but where is the medical proof?Sociologists Robert Bartholomew and Erich Goode offer the Zeitoun apparitions as a prominent case of mass delusion.“It appears that the Marian observers were predisposed by religious background and social expectation to interpreting the light displays as related to the Virgin Mary.”[11]
So the majority of these people were fanatics?"The reports of often fanatical religious witnesses who see their favourite saints in vague and ambiguous light patterns are examples of pareidolia, a psychological phenomenon."
Has no place in an article on criticism relation to the apparition.It is on a different subject altogether,and the proof is almost non-existent.This is further reinforced that there is no scientific explanation for "Earthquake Lights".Canadian neuro-psychologist Michael Persinger of Laurentian University and his American colleague John Derr (1989)[9] analyzed seismic activity in the region from 1958 to 1979, and found an unprecedented peak in earthquakes during 1969. They state that:Temporal analyses were completed between the occurrence of intense displays of exotic luminous phenomena over a church in Zeitoun (Egypt) during the years 1968 through 1969 and regional seismicity. These phenomena, viewed by thousands of onlookers, began one year before an unprecedented increase (factor of 10) in seismic activity about 400 km to the southeast. Monthly analyses also demonstrated a moderate (0.56) correlation between increases in seismicity and the occurrence of luminous phenomena during the same or previous month. These results were interpreted as further support for the hypothesis that most anomalous (terrain-related) luminous phenomena are generated by factors associated with tectonic strain.Earthquake lights, although as yet without a rigorous scientific explanation, have been observed in other parts of the world
Until an administrator believes these sections are suitable to the criticism article,these areas will remain absent to the article. Sheodred ( talk) 03:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Danmav I don't understand why you feel you have to justify these sections,as I said before,if you have a problem with these edits go to an administrator until then these sections will continue to be absent.I do not desire an edit war,whereas it appears you do.Speak to an administrator if you feel what I am doing is unneccessary.The criticism does not represent the status quo,only you,as you are the one who wrote this without interference.
As regards to this youtube video.It is not reliable,I can find a video where an individual claims that the moon is made of cheese.Just out of curiosity,are you an atheist? Thank you. Sheodred ( talk) 16:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
I gve my reasons and you know yourself and as others can see that I did not just use the newspaper quotation as an example,yes it was inappropiate of me to ask your beliefs,however along with the Earthquake Lights don't you find it absurd and inappropiate of contradicting a phenomenon with another phenomenon.I will have to revert the criticism again,seeming as you have not trimmed the deleted sections so it does not come across as POV.Regards. 78.16.11.81 ( talk) 14:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC) Sheodred ( talk) 18:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
I have elaborated on the POV material here,one example I have mentioned previously,which I will use again,is that you used a quotation from a journalist to try and reinforce a perspective,it would be like using a quote from Mein Kampf to back up a point,for example,how all the Jews are evil,which I am sure we all know is racist and an example of Hitler's xenophobia,but that is not what is being discussed here.Just because it was a quotation from a journalist,does not mean he is correct,we all know that journalists like to put their own opinions across (by the way I am sure you know it against wikipedian rules,to use your own quotations).Regarding your defense of using "Earthquake Lights",an inexplicable phenomenon,as I have mentioned before, to debunk another phenomenon is a bit absurd.Also I am not "simply insisting on having my way",if that was so I wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.What I am doing is enforcing the neutraility of wikipedia,which does not go against the spirit of wikipedia.The credible and non POV points remain in the criticism section.If the problem was with me an administrator would have rectified this already.Thank you Sheodred ( talk) 13:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I have explained already,you seem to be the one with the problem,or "bee in the bonnet",not me sir.Now you have resorted to personal insults and ranting.That is unacceptable.There are administrators here for your information,I suggest you check. Sheodred ( talk) 14:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Currently this article suffers from the lack of reliable sources. Also there are some original research issues. I'd say major clean-up/rewrite is required to bring it up to the standards. Guys, please also keep in mind Comment on content, not on the contributor policy. M0RD00R ( talk) 08:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
The criticism article is much better thank you Mordoor.It lacks POV and neutrality issues.Which is what I had a problem with,in the first place.Well written.By the way Danmav,you are seeking an apology?For what exactly?You violated procedures,and made personal attacks on me,without any substance.If anyone was to to apologise it would be you sir,not me.Some advice,stop trolling.It will only earn you a suspension or ban.My regards. Sheodred ( talk) 13:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
What about the photos you can find on Google? Could those be fake? If not, then the aspect that only a few light shapes were visible, mentioned in the criticism section, is actually untenable from my view.-- 77.180.221.153 ( talk) 18:18, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
If these photos are real, they would be sort of a proof that God does exist, wouldn't they?-- 77.180.210.141 ( talk) 16:26, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Most of these so-called photos are obvious fakes. The most common one of the 'apparition' hovering in front of the church is an acknowledged drawing. In fact, there are only a handful of actual photographs in existence and they were taken by a single person. (Surprising when millions are supposed to have witnessed the apparition). These photos show nothing more than vague blobs of light. 60.242.156.51 ( talk) 00:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh, here is the link for the 'true photo' that is actually a drawing: http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitun2002/cwdata/zeitun200212.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.156.51 ( talk) 00:44, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Can you include it?-- Der Spion ( talk) 22:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
How come there were taken so few photographs? That can't be true... There mst be others somewhere!-- Der Spion ( talk) 22:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't have any issue with most of the photos, they mostly appear to be possibly unedited, however the one labeled "photo for facial features depicting the apparition" appears rather doctored in my opinion, and stands out from the others as fake-looking; it looks like a drawing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbeSeverinsen ( talk • contribs) 21:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
I think your reversion of the edit is a mistake. Any criticism of Persinger's work belongs under his article, not on an article that refers to him and deals with only one aspect of his research, the tectonic strain theory (TST). In fact the bulk of the criticism in question isn't in the article on Persinger at all. It is fairly general in nature and makes reference to a 'God helmet' which has nothing to do with the Zeitoun apparition. The paragraph simply doesn't belong. More specifically:
1. The citation for Persinger's 'claims' (note the evocative language) "being widely dismissed" is not to a scholarly work but to a book written by a barrister! Hardly a refutation to a serious researcher.
2. "Not been independently replicated" cites to a research on building a haunted house - no relation to tectonic strain research (as stated in the abstract of the paper). How can you independently replicate tectonic strain?
3. The reference to the 'God helmet' is irrelevant as far as I can determine - again no relation to tectonic strain theory.
In summary, the place to argue any failings in Persinger's research is in the article on Persinger. To the contrary, under the "Tectonic Strain Theory" section of his article, I see qualified support from other researchers such as Devereaux and Rutowski. No real criticism apart from a similar edit made by the same person who edited the Zeitoun article. There is certainly no case made there that Persinger's theory is "widely disputed". 60.242.156.51 ( talk) 14:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I disagree.
I repeat: Any criticism of Persinger's TST belongs in that section of his own article. Talk of a 'God helmet' is totally inappropriate under Zeitoun. It just hangs there out of context.
Since it appears that we can't agree, can we please get a third opinion?
60.242.156.51 (
talk) 00:39, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Anonymous user 60.242.156.51, I'm amazed that you've argued so ferociously about my including peer-reviewed criticisms of Persinger's work and a recently published popular science book that dismisses his theories, while you seem to think its okay to replace all that with a UFO magazine article from 1986. This is a joke, right? Famousdog ( talk) 12:32, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I saw this on the third opinion page. I must confess that I was rather surprised to find TST on a page about a Marian apparition! There is what appears to be a WP:RS in terms of Persinger's article, but it strikes me as being much more about TST than Zeitoun. So while I think there is a case to include it in some way, I would think that a simple sentence would suffice - something along the lines of "The Zeitoun apparition has been investigated as being a possible example of the tectonic strain theory." I don't think that it would be appropriate to include anything beyond such a brief mention, and certainly not getting into the theory behind TST - that's what the links are for, if a reader is interested they'll follow it up further. As the article stands I think the TST and Persinger material are given undue WP:WEIGHT - nearly 30% of the article is about something barely relevant to the actual article. I would include a link to Persinger's page in the See Also section, however. MissionNPOVible ( talk) 13:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
"The appariton has appeared during different nights and is still appearing in varying forms: Sometimes in complete body and others in half, always surrounded by a white glittering halo appearing either from the dome openings or from the space between the domes on which She used to move and march and bow before the cross on the church roof, giving it a magnificent light. She used also to face multitudes of people in front of the church, and bless them with Her hands and with nods from Her blessed head.
...
"The Papal Residence, by issuing this statement, declares with complete faith and great rejoice and with gratitude submitted through self-humiliation to Almighty God that the Blessed Virgin Mary has appeared several times in clear and steady forms during many different nights for varying periods, that reached in some of them to more than two hours continually, since the second of April 1968 up to now in the Coptic Orthodox Church in Zeitun, Cairo, that is in Mataria Road through which the Holy Family had passed during their settlement in Egypt as well-known historically.
From THE PAPAL STATEMENT.
Bishop Grigorius. ST. MARY’S TRANSFIGURATIONS (The Coptic Orthodox Church of Zeitun). — Cairo: Dar Memphis Press, 1968. pp.16-18. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erlix ( talk • contribs) 18:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
The www.stmaryztn.org web site, the official web site, says that the picture was taken by a Mr. Fawzi Mansour (an architectural engineer who lived in Heliopolis, Egypt) on April 9, 1968. However, Pearl Zaki's book of 1977 states that the first pictures were not taken until April 13 by someone else, so there is a major disagreement there. It is widely accepted that the first photos which appeared in newspapers came from Mr Wagih Rizk (referred to as Wagih Risk Matta in the book). Most of his dozen or so photos are just blobs of light. What are the chances that someone else took one photo which is so distinct?
The web provides no information about the chronology of the alleged photo by Mansour. It looks suspicious given the light and shadow discrepancies evident on the top of the church. The shining apparition seems to be standing in front of the cross and yet the cross is as dark as the building below. Are there any photographic experts who might be able to comment on the veracity of this 'photo'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.156.51 ( talk) 13:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
The official website http://www.stmaryztn.org/saintmary/en/apparition/apparition-photos/real-photos states that Ali Ibrahim took the famous photo declared as real of the Virgin hovering over the church in good exposure. Why has this photograph not been added with mention to Ali Ibrahim as this is the official church site. Secondly the title Photo Added To Article Is Pobably A Fake is POV and should be removed. Are POV titles allowed in TALK. And lastly you have distorted in talk the actual declared real photo by Ali Ibrahim in the official site by some unoffoficial blog site which shows A poor quality fake copy of Ali Ibrahims photograph stating it is a drawing by an unsourced unreliable website stating a doctor drew it from memory when you can clearly see whoever added that stole the image from the official site and infringed on the copyright of Ali Ibrahim. The Ali Ibrahim official website photograph declared as real is most important to the article and I ask for the consesus here to include a photo of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.171.42.165 ( talk) 12:05, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
This is the official church site they are the closest source to the visions and would never include or declare pictures or photos to be real if fake. This article and your logic here is totally unreasonable and biased and you have actually slandered the church with your own POV by claiming Ali Ibrahims photo is a fake. I ask you to retract your comments concerning Ali Ibrahim and what you have stated about the church site or further action will be taken see you soon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.170.255.251 ( talk) 07:00, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I love the exchanges and edits from years ago herein. A juicy quote from the previous version: "(...) photographs(originals? from what source?) taken(when?) by Ali Ibrahim(who is he?) and verified(by who?) as actual photos from The Church website were used in March 2009 by a film maker in Australia experimenting with altering light waves on images and photos. Unseen details were revealed, the face, hand in close up and clothing of the lady in the image as well as her holding a dark haired baby (currently under scrutiny and investigation(by who?) (...)" This is the WP spirit! Zezen ( talk) 08:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
The idea that Nasser both was a purportedly convinced viewer of this apparition and yet indisputably engaged at times in persecution of Christians seems to be presented as a complete contradiction. If the article goes there, it should go – very lightly – into the various Islamic viewpoints on Mary (it would be presumptuous to claim to present the viewpoint on Mary) since she is venerated by Muslims as well as many Christians. This certainly doesn't need to be the main focus on the article, which is neither primarily about Nasser or Islam, but since this is mentioned, it needs to be addressed very briefly with a NPOV focus by someone both more knowledgeable and defter than myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1004:B159:F6CB:946F:8EED:2EC9:224B ( talk) 00:32, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I agree. This unsourced statement caught my eye "Moreover, persecution of Christian minorities in Egypt defies the concept that both Muslims and Christians could share the same view of Mary". As noted above, Muslims venerate Mary as do many Christians. The fundamental disagreement with Christians is not about Mary per se, but as to whether Jesus was God, and whether Mohammed was the Prophet of God. So there is no contradiction as the statement suggests. PatConolly ( talk) 00:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Most of these Marian apparitions pages have some criticism or skeptics on it. This one used to but it has been deleted for some reason. One of the sources is literally just a christian blog, and the others are mainly christian books, with no independent sources from media outlets or other such things. I also doubt the authenticity of the photograph shown prominently, as previous have. The article should note that one o the prominent "photos" of the apparition were drawings, and that all the actual photos were taken by one person. Overall, this article is desperately in need of a "skeptical response" section and some better sources.
Jasper0333 (
talk) 08:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm looking through this article's history and it used to be much better. There used to be an actual section for some skeptical views of the incident and the report of a sociologist who said she saw an ambiguous glow that could kinda be seen as a nunlike shape, but if you stopped trying to see it like that it just looked like a vague glow. Secondly she saw some flashing lights which was somehow interpreted as Mary by the crowd. Also, the photo being used here is extremely suspect, as mentioned earlier. There was only a set of very blurry photographs released at the time, and one painting that looked like a photo. The idea that someone had extreme high-quality photos they released tens of years later is... spurious. No one can seem to find who exactly this mysterious Ibrahim is either. Plus the photos look very fake, and their source is a christian blog. I recommend we change the photo to one of the worse, but better sourced ones that was originally released to the papers, as it more accurately summarizes the incident. Is anyone still watching this awful article? If not, I'll make these changes myself.
Jasper0333 ( talk) 03:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
The photo used by this wikipedia page is unfit for purpose and we should use a different one. Here's why.
1. Contradictory sourcing. As mentioned previously, this photo has been sourced to two separate people on two different dates. This obviously undermines reliability.
2. The photos themselves are extremely suspect. The cross is dark, while the rest of the building glows. The entire roof glowing was not reported by any other source. The apparition has a halo, which only appears in one other source, a drawing. The halo is extremely consistent with pieces of christian art at the time, which were developed due to greek influences, not any communication with the divine. If you look at the apparition, it also appears very suspect. Almost all pictures had it being blindingly white, with only an admitted drawing and this having this sort of extreme level of detail and also lack of brightness.
3. The leading image shouldn't be disputed in any major way, except perhaps if you include qualifiers underneath the image. Even then, many won't read it, and this discussion is too long and complex to write it down. I propose that we should find one of those indisputable but lower quality images that was placed in many newspapers. I'll be finding one and adding it to the article shortly. Any comments? Is anyone here?
Jasper0333 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:56, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Added back the old skeptical response section and put in a new source that I found. The image has been removed for reasons previously stated, however I cannot find any other images of the event in wikimedia commons, so this article will remain without an image until we get better verification on the original (doubtful) or download a new image to wikimedia.
Jasper0333 ( talk) 05:50, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
I've been looking a bit into the authenticity of this image, and other images from Zeitoun. This website claims that analysis of the photo "found no particular fault with the picture that would betray its authenticity, but double exposure could not be ruled out either." The source book, unfortunately, seems to be inaccessible, and is only available at three libraries in the US.
However, I have my own doubts about the photo, but I could be wrong. On the right cupola, there seems to be some sort of discrepancy between bright and dark stone arches. The line looks to be completely vertical in the photo, which is strange. Looking up photos from this perspective, I don't see a source for that sort of strange discrepancy.
This website has a copy of the same photo in significantly lower resolution, with less well-defined features. However, this probably doesn't mean anything; most of the images on that site are of similar low quality and are probably screenshots of an older documentary, though I have no way of proving this.
Votedforkang ( talk) 23:48, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Added a lot of stuff. God, this is awful to dig through all these sources, so many with a blatant religious bias. Used a blog as a source, but hey, we're already using shitty religious blogs here. And the blog provides a really good summary of the whole situation, despite the author's... odd conclusions. Anyways, it's going in. No more biased than the literal copt blogs being used haha. Hope I can find a reliable photo to be used for the wikibox. Hmm.
Jasper0333 ( talk) 09:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
This is one of many pages about Marian apparitions. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians (Copts?) hate the "Skeptical interpretation" section and remove it every month or so, only to get instantly reverted. Annoying, but whatever. Anyways, here are some important things to know about this page:
1. Christians/Copts: Please stop removing the skeptical interpretation section. We have it for every miracle/marian apparition. Yes, Cynthia Nelson not seeing Mary doesn't mean Mary didn't appear, but it is an important piece of information, and the only one written by a skeptical eyewitness. The most important part of a miracle is critically evaluating it and considering alternative explanations.
2. The photo. I initially removed it, but there were no alternatives on wikicommons, so now it's back with an "alleged" under it. I think that's good? I'm considering changing alleged to disputed, but that might be too biased language.
3. Something to make the Christians cheer up after their failed attempts to get rid of "Skeptical Interpretation". There are more alleged miracles that haven't been added here. Namely, some hard to explain dove-like objects flying around, the shutting down of the electricity changing nothing, some miracle healings, and the supposed prophecy. Any Christians coming here to remove Skeptical Interpretation, try adding these things instead. Cynthia Nelson's report talks about the miracle healings and prophecy, while the Parasociology blog talks about the the doves. I don't remember where I read the electricity shut-off thing. Some religious site maybe? Just make sure to state that the prophecy was a rumor that was floating around, and hasn't been confirmed.
4. The Nasser sighting. I haven't looked into the sources on this, but I've heard they aren't very good. It's possible this is a later rumor. Maybe make more clear the alleged part of the alleged Nasser sighting somehow?
That's all for now. Thanks for any help, and for the love of God, stop removing Skeptical Interpretation.
Jasper0333 (
talk) 01:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC)
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Moved to "Zeitoun", about twice as many Google hits as "Zeitun".
Tualha 02:42, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Details of Tualha's 16 Nov edit:
Was basically an ad for OP's website and severely POV. NPOV, "alleged", shortened, cut encomium and official statements, added pic.
Issues:
Tualha 04:13, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Postscript: I realize the article is rather apparition-heavy and Zeitoun-light, but I haven't been able to find anything on the web about the town except apparition pages. I think this is the best way to handle it - start out saying it's a town and why it's worth putting in the wiki, then focus on its claim to fame.
Tualha 04:40, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
What interested me the most is that seemingly we don't have any photos taken in plain light of the day! Curious, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.8.61.113 ( talk) 22:37, 23 January 2005 (UTC)
I added two references. They are very thin brochures, and probably nowhere to get, except in their (complete?) form on the 'Zeitoun Web Gallery. It's a bit double, because this website is already in the External Links section, but I thought it makes sense, also because the two texts are not readily found there. Main question: Is this enough to cover the 'citation needed' request in the article? I have assumed that it is and removed the request. Geke 18:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
I work for an evangelical & reformed seminary library and have an original copy of Pearl Zaki's "Our Lord's Mother visits Egypt in 1968." I discovered it in a box of book sale donations. It is a book (115 pages), not a thin brochure. The information on the website is only an excerpt of the text. Also included in the book is an image of "the Egyptian Gazette" article from April 11, 1969. I've entered the citations needed from pages 27 and 25 respectively. -- Wmmars 06:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to lack neutrality. It only cites information from theistic sources.
I also have problems with the contribution on 'polarisation' of one of the photographs. No information about the process is provided. Furthermore I suspect that the contributor of this text is the person who is named, Vincent Ruello, and that this constitutes self-promotion. He seems to sell religious paintings and refers to the wikipedia article on his web page here: http://www.conexarte.com/Vincent-Ruello-Painting.html
There would seem to be an issue with the credibility of the source, at the very least.
Is it okay if I write a "Criticisms" section for this article? Danmav ( talk) 05:55, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok here we go I am not promoting my painting on conex and never mentioned it. I take offense Danvam at you saying it is not scholarly. I am the first person to use Polarisation to reveal detail in the 2 authentic pictures of Our lady Of Zeitoun taken by Ali Ibrahim. Before I explain polarisation yes I am film maker a video maker of music clips am also a musician. The polarisation technique I used involved altering the angles of light hitting the photographs and then using a microscopic film programme on the images and then re filming it. Look at the 3 clips on youtube that is my evidence of what I have done. Look at the polarisation of the hand and the clarity. In the photos you can see no hand at all. This was taken from the photo above the roof. Look at the other 2 clips posted on youtube and the great detail of the new images of parts of marys face holding baby Jesus. I have developed this technique and am horrified that you have deleted the paragraph without my consent. If this is the way you treat people who discover things I want no part of wikipedia. My discovery is as ground breaking as the revealing of images on the Shroud of Turin and my name Vincent Ruello had to go in the paragraph because I have revealed the fine detail in those 2 photographs which were previously just undetailed images of light. If the consesus here is to remove my scientific work and major discovery in Our Lady Of Light so be it but my work has now been published and will gain ground and be respected for what I have done. Sincerely Vincent Ruello Australia and lastly my appologies, my 3 clips of the work I did for the benefit of other wikipedia members can be seen at youtube, user name vinnypop search Mary Zeitoun and my 3 clips will appear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.219 ( talk) 13:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Well I used a scientific process and have revealed hidden images so how is it unscientic, science reveals hidden facts I have revealed the face of Mary the face of baby Jesus a close up of Marys hand the fine detail on her clothing, hidden shades and textures and all totally true and un doctored are you accusing me of being a liar. I have explained the process of Polarisation in the technique I used. Please leave the following information here so other wikipedians can see my work do not delete this title let others see my work Danmav Youtube search Mary Zeitoun Polarisation: There are 3 clips 1. The Roof Side Angle Photo Polarisation 2. The floating apparition Photo Face Of Mary Baby Jesus Revealed and 3. Close Up Polarisation of Hand. Thankyou Danman and no hard feelings I understand your intensity in only writing the truth so its ok. Ps yes I am an artist and did paint Our Lady from the images my technique revealed. I ask other wikipedians and admin to reload my paragraph of my MAJOR discovery I have revealed the face of Mary and baby Jesus, this is major and spiritually immense you have no right to stifle this fantastic news from the world Danman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.219 ( talk) 15:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
Thankyou Danmav that sounds very reasonable and expected and I must comply if it is to be accepted here which would be a great honor for me. To begin with, the pictures I used were not the paintings which there are many. Before I undertook the experiment I chose the only 2 photographs taken by Ali Ibrahim, the image floating in front of the roof and the image taken from below looking up where Our Lady Of Light is sideways on what looks like the balcony. I went to the official site of the actual Church and verified that these were infact actual photographs before I applied the technique. I can reproduce the results before anyone. Ok I will add a section in article on Polarisation in as much detail as I can without compromising my intellectual copyright to the process which has great benefit in being used as a photo identification and authentication system so I need to be careful how I reveal things. Will also look into finding an expert in this field who could spare time to see what and how I did it and will get back here with more answers. Sincerely Vince. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.46 ( talk) 14:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
Polarisation Of Photographs 2 photographs(originals? from what source?) taken(when?) by Ali Ibrahim(who is he?) and verified(by who?) as actual photos from The Church website were used in March 2009 by a film maker in Australia experimenting with altering light waves on images and photos. Unseen details were revealed, the face, hand in close up and clothing of the lady in the image as well as her holding a dark haired baby (currently under scrutiny and investigation(by who?)). This is currently being discussed in the discussion section. The technique used is simple. The image of the photograph is placed at an angle where less light hits it(where does polarisation come into it?). It is refilmed and then placed in a programme which zooms into the new image and refilmed again. A second angular filming with less light is done and a final refilming. It now appears as a fact(speculation) which can be verified before any scientific body(but hasn't been done!) that using less light on certain objects that are as per say exploding in light(speculation) such as the photographs taken by Ali Ibrahim will reveal hidden detail not seen by the naked eye(opinion, not fact). The 3 clips can be seen on youtube search Mary Zeitoun Polarisation(COI blatant advertising!), with a scientific report to follow with results and outcomes published here asap(must be done first!). (This section on Polarisation was added with permission of a senior wikipedia archivist(who?).) Danmav ( talk) 13:48, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
You Danmav arent you a senior wiki person ? hmmmmmmm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.136 ( talk) 17:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Danmav you havent proven its a drawing whatsoever it is just your saying that and furthermore my polarisation technique proves it is not a drawing because the hidden images that are revealed are real and not drawings, the neuatrality required here should be against you as you are assuming everything. I repeat again the 2 photos taken by Ali Ibrahim have been stated to be photographgs by the actual church website, they also do have a section of drawings but my work centred on their section of ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPHS so this is all we have to go on not what you assume, what have you stated in the main article nothing you just say these are drawings but your wrong. I dont have to prove anything anymore. The photos have been credited to Ali Ibrahim...he exists he is real, they did not credit drawings to him but if you do not believe the actual church website its all a waste of time argueing with you as I find you totally biased towards the left on this issue and you lack evidence. Ali Ibrahim is the evidence what do you have to prove otherwise NOTHING goodday to you sir. Vincent Ruello —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.141.248 ( talk) 15:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
Was removed,written from a POV perspective,it has to be non-biased from a neutral perspective.On another note a photo of the apparition needs to be added. Sheodred ( talk) 14:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
How is that relevant to its authenticity?"There is no record that Pope Kyrillos, head of the Coptic Church in Alexandria, ever visited the Church of Saint Mary in Zeitoun up to his death in 1971, to personally view the phenomenon."
This is not neutral and the manner in which it is written supports a personal POV."“Since then the church has become the object of nightly vigil by thousands of Cairenes, with the standard accompaniment of popcorn and chick-pea vendors, and there have been repeated but somewhat contradictory report[sic] of appearances."
A case,but where is the medical proof?Sociologists Robert Bartholomew and Erich Goode offer the Zeitoun apparitions as a prominent case of mass delusion.“It appears that the Marian observers were predisposed by religious background and social expectation to interpreting the light displays as related to the Virgin Mary.”[11]
So the majority of these people were fanatics?"The reports of often fanatical religious witnesses who see their favourite saints in vague and ambiguous light patterns are examples of pareidolia, a psychological phenomenon."
Has no place in an article on criticism relation to the apparition.It is on a different subject altogether,and the proof is almost non-existent.This is further reinforced that there is no scientific explanation for "Earthquake Lights".Canadian neuro-psychologist Michael Persinger of Laurentian University and his American colleague John Derr (1989)[9] analyzed seismic activity in the region from 1958 to 1979, and found an unprecedented peak in earthquakes during 1969. They state that:Temporal analyses were completed between the occurrence of intense displays of exotic luminous phenomena over a church in Zeitoun (Egypt) during the years 1968 through 1969 and regional seismicity. These phenomena, viewed by thousands of onlookers, began one year before an unprecedented increase (factor of 10) in seismic activity about 400 km to the southeast. Monthly analyses also demonstrated a moderate (0.56) correlation between increases in seismicity and the occurrence of luminous phenomena during the same or previous month. These results were interpreted as further support for the hypothesis that most anomalous (terrain-related) luminous phenomena are generated by factors associated with tectonic strain.Earthquake lights, although as yet without a rigorous scientific explanation, have been observed in other parts of the world
Until an administrator believes these sections are suitable to the criticism article,these areas will remain absent to the article. Sheodred ( talk) 03:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
Danmav I don't understand why you feel you have to justify these sections,as I said before,if you have a problem with these edits go to an administrator until then these sections will continue to be absent.I do not desire an edit war,whereas it appears you do.Speak to an administrator if you feel what I am doing is unneccessary.The criticism does not represent the status quo,only you,as you are the one who wrote this without interference.
As regards to this youtube video.It is not reliable,I can find a video where an individual claims that the moon is made of cheese.Just out of curiosity,are you an atheist? Thank you. Sheodred ( talk) 16:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
I gve my reasons and you know yourself and as others can see that I did not just use the newspaper quotation as an example,yes it was inappropiate of me to ask your beliefs,however along with the Earthquake Lights don't you find it absurd and inappropiate of contradicting a phenomenon with another phenomenon.I will have to revert the criticism again,seeming as you have not trimmed the deleted sections so it does not come across as POV.Regards. 78.16.11.81 ( talk) 14:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC) Sheodred ( talk) 18:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
I have elaborated on the POV material here,one example I have mentioned previously,which I will use again,is that you used a quotation from a journalist to try and reinforce a perspective,it would be like using a quote from Mein Kampf to back up a point,for example,how all the Jews are evil,which I am sure we all know is racist and an example of Hitler's xenophobia,but that is not what is being discussed here.Just because it was a quotation from a journalist,does not mean he is correct,we all know that journalists like to put their own opinions across (by the way I am sure you know it against wikipedian rules,to use your own quotations).Regarding your defense of using "Earthquake Lights",an inexplicable phenomenon,as I have mentioned before, to debunk another phenomenon is a bit absurd.Also I am not "simply insisting on having my way",if that was so I wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.What I am doing is enforcing the neutraility of wikipedia,which does not go against the spirit of wikipedia.The credible and non POV points remain in the criticism section.If the problem was with me an administrator would have rectified this already.Thank you Sheodred ( talk) 13:23, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
I have explained already,you seem to be the one with the problem,or "bee in the bonnet",not me sir.Now you have resorted to personal insults and ranting.That is unacceptable.There are administrators here for your information,I suggest you check. Sheodred ( talk) 14:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Currently this article suffers from the lack of reliable sources. Also there are some original research issues. I'd say major clean-up/rewrite is required to bring it up to the standards. Guys, please also keep in mind Comment on content, not on the contributor policy. M0RD00R ( talk) 08:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
The criticism article is much better thank you Mordoor.It lacks POV and neutrality issues.Which is what I had a problem with,in the first place.Well written.By the way Danmav,you are seeking an apology?For what exactly?You violated procedures,and made personal attacks on me,without any substance.If anyone was to to apologise it would be you sir,not me.Some advice,stop trolling.It will only earn you a suspension or ban.My regards. Sheodred ( talk) 13:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
What about the photos you can find on Google? Could those be fake? If not, then the aspect that only a few light shapes were visible, mentioned in the criticism section, is actually untenable from my view.-- 77.180.221.153 ( talk) 18:18, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
If these photos are real, they would be sort of a proof that God does exist, wouldn't they?-- 77.180.210.141 ( talk) 16:26, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
Most of these so-called photos are obvious fakes. The most common one of the 'apparition' hovering in front of the church is an acknowledged drawing. In fact, there are only a handful of actual photographs in existence and they were taken by a single person. (Surprising when millions are supposed to have witnessed the apparition). These photos show nothing more than vague blobs of light. 60.242.156.51 ( talk) 00:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh, here is the link for the 'true photo' that is actually a drawing: http://www.zeitun-eg.org/zeitun2002/cwdata/zeitun200212.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.156.51 ( talk) 00:44, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
Can you include it?-- Der Spion ( talk) 22:37, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
How come there were taken so few photographs? That can't be true... There mst be others somewhere!-- Der Spion ( talk) 22:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
I don't have any issue with most of the photos, they mostly appear to be possibly unedited, however the one labeled "photo for facial features depicting the apparition" appears rather doctored in my opinion, and stands out from the others as fake-looking; it looks like a drawing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AbeSeverinsen ( talk • contribs) 21:20, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
I think your reversion of the edit is a mistake. Any criticism of Persinger's work belongs under his article, not on an article that refers to him and deals with only one aspect of his research, the tectonic strain theory (TST). In fact the bulk of the criticism in question isn't in the article on Persinger at all. It is fairly general in nature and makes reference to a 'God helmet' which has nothing to do with the Zeitoun apparition. The paragraph simply doesn't belong. More specifically:
1. The citation for Persinger's 'claims' (note the evocative language) "being widely dismissed" is not to a scholarly work but to a book written by a barrister! Hardly a refutation to a serious researcher.
2. "Not been independently replicated" cites to a research on building a haunted house - no relation to tectonic strain research (as stated in the abstract of the paper). How can you independently replicate tectonic strain?
3. The reference to the 'God helmet' is irrelevant as far as I can determine - again no relation to tectonic strain theory.
In summary, the place to argue any failings in Persinger's research is in the article on Persinger. To the contrary, under the "Tectonic Strain Theory" section of his article, I see qualified support from other researchers such as Devereaux and Rutowski. No real criticism apart from a similar edit made by the same person who edited the Zeitoun article. There is certainly no case made there that Persinger's theory is "widely disputed". 60.242.156.51 ( talk) 14:37, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I disagree.
I repeat: Any criticism of Persinger's TST belongs in that section of his own article. Talk of a 'God helmet' is totally inappropriate under Zeitoun. It just hangs there out of context.
Since it appears that we can't agree, can we please get a third opinion?
60.242.156.51 (
talk) 00:39, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Anonymous user 60.242.156.51, I'm amazed that you've argued so ferociously about my including peer-reviewed criticisms of Persinger's work and a recently published popular science book that dismisses his theories, while you seem to think its okay to replace all that with a UFO magazine article from 1986. This is a joke, right? Famousdog ( talk) 12:32, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I saw this on the third opinion page. I must confess that I was rather surprised to find TST on a page about a Marian apparition! There is what appears to be a WP:RS in terms of Persinger's article, but it strikes me as being much more about TST than Zeitoun. So while I think there is a case to include it in some way, I would think that a simple sentence would suffice - something along the lines of "The Zeitoun apparition has been investigated as being a possible example of the tectonic strain theory." I don't think that it would be appropriate to include anything beyond such a brief mention, and certainly not getting into the theory behind TST - that's what the links are for, if a reader is interested they'll follow it up further. As the article stands I think the TST and Persinger material are given undue WP:WEIGHT - nearly 30% of the article is about something barely relevant to the actual article. I would include a link to Persinger's page in the See Also section, however. MissionNPOVible ( talk) 13:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
"The appariton has appeared during different nights and is still appearing in varying forms: Sometimes in complete body and others in half, always surrounded by a white glittering halo appearing either from the dome openings or from the space between the domes on which She used to move and march and bow before the cross on the church roof, giving it a magnificent light. She used also to face multitudes of people in front of the church, and bless them with Her hands and with nods from Her blessed head.
...
"The Papal Residence, by issuing this statement, declares with complete faith and great rejoice and with gratitude submitted through self-humiliation to Almighty God that the Blessed Virgin Mary has appeared several times in clear and steady forms during many different nights for varying periods, that reached in some of them to more than two hours continually, since the second of April 1968 up to now in the Coptic Orthodox Church in Zeitun, Cairo, that is in Mataria Road through which the Holy Family had passed during their settlement in Egypt as well-known historically.
From THE PAPAL STATEMENT.
Bishop Grigorius. ST. MARY’S TRANSFIGURATIONS (The Coptic Orthodox Church of Zeitun). — Cairo: Dar Memphis Press, 1968. pp.16-18. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erlix ( talk • contribs) 18:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
The www.stmaryztn.org web site, the official web site, says that the picture was taken by a Mr. Fawzi Mansour (an architectural engineer who lived in Heliopolis, Egypt) on April 9, 1968. However, Pearl Zaki's book of 1977 states that the first pictures were not taken until April 13 by someone else, so there is a major disagreement there. It is widely accepted that the first photos which appeared in newspapers came from Mr Wagih Rizk (referred to as Wagih Risk Matta in the book). Most of his dozen or so photos are just blobs of light. What are the chances that someone else took one photo which is so distinct?
The web provides no information about the chronology of the alleged photo by Mansour. It looks suspicious given the light and shadow discrepancies evident on the top of the church. The shining apparition seems to be standing in front of the cross and yet the cross is as dark as the building below. Are there any photographic experts who might be able to comment on the veracity of this 'photo'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.156.51 ( talk) 13:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
The official website http://www.stmaryztn.org/saintmary/en/apparition/apparition-photos/real-photos states that Ali Ibrahim took the famous photo declared as real of the Virgin hovering over the church in good exposure. Why has this photograph not been added with mention to Ali Ibrahim as this is the official church site. Secondly the title Photo Added To Article Is Pobably A Fake is POV and should be removed. Are POV titles allowed in TALK. And lastly you have distorted in talk the actual declared real photo by Ali Ibrahim in the official site by some unoffoficial blog site which shows A poor quality fake copy of Ali Ibrahims photograph stating it is a drawing by an unsourced unreliable website stating a doctor drew it from memory when you can clearly see whoever added that stole the image from the official site and infringed on the copyright of Ali Ibrahim. The Ali Ibrahim official website photograph declared as real is most important to the article and I ask for the consesus here to include a photo of it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.171.42.165 ( talk) 12:05, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
This is the official church site they are the closest source to the visions and would never include or declare pictures or photos to be real if fake. This article and your logic here is totally unreasonable and biased and you have actually slandered the church with your own POV by claiming Ali Ibrahims photo is a fake. I ask you to retract your comments concerning Ali Ibrahim and what you have stated about the church site or further action will be taken see you soon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.170.255.251 ( talk) 07:00, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I love the exchanges and edits from years ago herein. A juicy quote from the previous version: "(...) photographs(originals? from what source?) taken(when?) by Ali Ibrahim(who is he?) and verified(by who?) as actual photos from The Church website were used in March 2009 by a film maker in Australia experimenting with altering light waves on images and photos. Unseen details were revealed, the face, hand in close up and clothing of the lady in the image as well as her holding a dark haired baby (currently under scrutiny and investigation(by who?) (...)" This is the WP spirit! Zezen ( talk) 08:45, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
The idea that Nasser both was a purportedly convinced viewer of this apparition and yet indisputably engaged at times in persecution of Christians seems to be presented as a complete contradiction. If the article goes there, it should go – very lightly – into the various Islamic viewpoints on Mary (it would be presumptuous to claim to present the viewpoint on Mary) since she is venerated by Muslims as well as many Christians. This certainly doesn't need to be the main focus on the article, which is neither primarily about Nasser or Islam, but since this is mentioned, it needs to be addressed very briefly with a NPOV focus by someone both more knowledgeable and defter than myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1004:B159:F6CB:946F:8EED:2EC9:224B ( talk) 00:32, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I agree. This unsourced statement caught my eye "Moreover, persecution of Christian minorities in Egypt defies the concept that both Muslims and Christians could share the same view of Mary". As noted above, Muslims venerate Mary as do many Christians. The fundamental disagreement with Christians is not about Mary per se, but as to whether Jesus was God, and whether Mohammed was the Prophet of God. So there is no contradiction as the statement suggests. PatConolly ( talk) 00:25, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
Most of these Marian apparitions pages have some criticism or skeptics on it. This one used to but it has been deleted for some reason. One of the sources is literally just a christian blog, and the others are mainly christian books, with no independent sources from media outlets or other such things. I also doubt the authenticity of the photograph shown prominently, as previous have. The article should note that one o the prominent "photos" of the apparition were drawings, and that all the actual photos were taken by one person. Overall, this article is desperately in need of a "skeptical response" section and some better sources.
Jasper0333 (
talk) 08:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
I'm looking through this article's history and it used to be much better. There used to be an actual section for some skeptical views of the incident and the report of a sociologist who said she saw an ambiguous glow that could kinda be seen as a nunlike shape, but if you stopped trying to see it like that it just looked like a vague glow. Secondly she saw some flashing lights which was somehow interpreted as Mary by the crowd. Also, the photo being used here is extremely suspect, as mentioned earlier. There was only a set of very blurry photographs released at the time, and one painting that looked like a photo. The idea that someone had extreme high-quality photos they released tens of years later is... spurious. No one can seem to find who exactly this mysterious Ibrahim is either. Plus the photos look very fake, and their source is a christian blog. I recommend we change the photo to one of the worse, but better sourced ones that was originally released to the papers, as it more accurately summarizes the incident. Is anyone still watching this awful article? If not, I'll make these changes myself.
Jasper0333 ( talk) 03:31, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
The photo used by this wikipedia page is unfit for purpose and we should use a different one. Here's why.
1. Contradictory sourcing. As mentioned previously, this photo has been sourced to two separate people on two different dates. This obviously undermines reliability.
2. The photos themselves are extremely suspect. The cross is dark, while the rest of the building glows. The entire roof glowing was not reported by any other source. The apparition has a halo, which only appears in one other source, a drawing. The halo is extremely consistent with pieces of christian art at the time, which were developed due to greek influences, not any communication with the divine. If you look at the apparition, it also appears very suspect. Almost all pictures had it being blindingly white, with only an admitted drawing and this having this sort of extreme level of detail and also lack of brightness.
3. The leading image shouldn't be disputed in any major way, except perhaps if you include qualifiers underneath the image. Even then, many won't read it, and this discussion is too long and complex to write it down. I propose that we should find one of those indisputable but lower quality images that was placed in many newspapers. I'll be finding one and adding it to the article shortly. Any comments? Is anyone here?
Jasper0333 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 07:56, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
Added back the old skeptical response section and put in a new source that I found. The image has been removed for reasons previously stated, however I cannot find any other images of the event in wikimedia commons, so this article will remain without an image until we get better verification on the original (doubtful) or download a new image to wikimedia.
Jasper0333 ( talk) 05:50, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
I've been looking a bit into the authenticity of this image, and other images from Zeitoun. This website claims that analysis of the photo "found no particular fault with the picture that would betray its authenticity, but double exposure could not be ruled out either." The source book, unfortunately, seems to be inaccessible, and is only available at three libraries in the US.
However, I have my own doubts about the photo, but I could be wrong. On the right cupola, there seems to be some sort of discrepancy between bright and dark stone arches. The line looks to be completely vertical in the photo, which is strange. Looking up photos from this perspective, I don't see a source for that sort of strange discrepancy.
This website has a copy of the same photo in significantly lower resolution, with less well-defined features. However, this probably doesn't mean anything; most of the images on that site are of similar low quality and are probably screenshots of an older documentary, though I have no way of proving this.
Votedforkang ( talk) 23:48, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Added a lot of stuff. God, this is awful to dig through all these sources, so many with a blatant religious bias. Used a blog as a source, but hey, we're already using shitty religious blogs here. And the blog provides a really good summary of the whole situation, despite the author's... odd conclusions. Anyways, it's going in. No more biased than the literal copt blogs being used haha. Hope I can find a reliable photo to be used for the wikibox. Hmm.
Jasper0333 ( talk) 09:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
This is one of many pages about Marian apparitions. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians (Copts?) hate the "Skeptical interpretation" section and remove it every month or so, only to get instantly reverted. Annoying, but whatever. Anyways, here are some important things to know about this page:
1. Christians/Copts: Please stop removing the skeptical interpretation section. We have it for every miracle/marian apparition. Yes, Cynthia Nelson not seeing Mary doesn't mean Mary didn't appear, but it is an important piece of information, and the only one written by a skeptical eyewitness. The most important part of a miracle is critically evaluating it and considering alternative explanations.
2. The photo. I initially removed it, but there were no alternatives on wikicommons, so now it's back with an "alleged" under it. I think that's good? I'm considering changing alleged to disputed, but that might be too biased language.
3. Something to make the Christians cheer up after their failed attempts to get rid of "Skeptical Interpretation". There are more alleged miracles that haven't been added here. Namely, some hard to explain dove-like objects flying around, the shutting down of the electricity changing nothing, some miracle healings, and the supposed prophecy. Any Christians coming here to remove Skeptical Interpretation, try adding these things instead. Cynthia Nelson's report talks about the miracle healings and prophecy, while the Parasociology blog talks about the the doves. I don't remember where I read the electricity shut-off thing. Some religious site maybe? Just make sure to state that the prophecy was a rumor that was floating around, and hasn't been confirmed.
4. The Nasser sighting. I haven't looked into the sources on this, but I've heard they aren't very good. It's possible this is a later rumor. Maybe make more clear the alleged part of the alleged Nasser sighting somehow?
That's all for now. Thanks for any help, and for the love of God, stop removing Skeptical Interpretation.
Jasper0333 (
talk) 01:56, 2 April 2021 (UTC)