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Otherwise, the article is very good. All the extra information have already been summarised and placed in this article while the specifics of the article were given their own articles as further details. Special thanks to BentRedNewt/ Whimemsz for all the dedicated efforts!! CJLippert 18:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I feel the layout of this article should be changed a bit to conform to the WikiProject Languages template. So I'm going to go ahead and change it. -- Whimemsz 22:40, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure that Ojibwa is not Central Algonquian? Algonquian has three branches, Eastern, Central, and Plains. The Eastern branch has ten languages (including Abnaki, Micmac, Mohegan, Powhatan, Maliseet-Passamaquoddy and Wampanoag); the Plains branch includes Blackfoot, Arapaho and Cheyenne; there are several "outliers" that do not belong to any of the three branches (including Mahican, Piscataway, Lumbee and Carolina Algonquian); and then there is the big Central branch which counts 23 languages (including the several Cree groups, Montagnais, Potowatomi, Kickapoo, Shawnee, Algonkin, Menominee, Fox, Miami, Ottawa, and, as I understand it, Ojibwa).
Checking this on Ethnologue, I see that they show it as Algic - Algonquian - Central - Ojibwa (see Ethnologue report on Ojibwa). — Stephen 09:39, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would say that in the case of Ojibwe, especially in Central and Eastern Ojibwe, as well as in Odawa, terms "accent" and "syncope" are one and the same. The word for "horse" is "bebezhigooganzhii", given as an example in the article. The metred foot would be "(be)(be-zhi)(goo-gan)(zhii)" but due to the resulting syncope, a pure byproduct of the accent meter, makes the word sound like "bbezhgoognzhii" with the unstressed long vowel reduced to a short neutral vowel while the unstressed short vowel dropping out entirely.
In Wisconsin, the unstressed short vowels don't drop out, but often instead go through transformation. However, this doesn't quite happen with the "horse" example, making the word sound like "bbezhigooganzhii". In Minnesota, and Ontario Saulteaux, the word sounds as the way it is written "bebezhigooganzhii". Manitoba Saulteaux, instead uses an entirely different word: "mishtadim", which do experience the reduction and sounds like "mashtadim". CJLippert 03:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The article is nearly 50kb now. We should probably split it into a couple of smaller ones (probably the phonology section and writing section at least). Does anyone have any suggestions about what path to take? -- Whimemsz 23:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Do we want to keep the current title "Ojibwe language" or would it make more sense to migrate the article to a new title, maybe something like the "Anishinaabe language" or "Anishinaabemowin"? The main reason for this question is, in my opinion, having the "Ojibwe language" title seems to exclude the Odawa, Nipissing, Mississaugas, Algonquin and Saulteaux, but saying "Anishinaabe language" would include these groups. However, the shift would also beg the question of if the Potawatomi language would be folded into the article with the new name or if there ought to be an expanded discussion on the dialects, with a short paragraph or two regarding the Potawatomi language and providing a "Main article: ..." link in that section. Ideas, suggestions and your vote, please. CJLippert 23:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, which is the authority used by the Canadian gov't, Canadian Press, newspapers, etc. recommends these English terms:
Ojibwa (also Ojibway, Ojibwe): 1. a member of an Algonquian people living especially around Lake Superior and certain adjacent areas. 2. the Algonquian language of these people [etymology: Ojibwa language, from a root meaning "puckered", with reference to their moccasins]
ISO 639-3 also prefers the term Ojibwa.
Although the term "Anishinaabe" might be accurate in the Ojibwa language itself, it's a non-standard English term (for the English Wikipedia). Which English language style guides and authorities recommend using terms other than Ojibwa (such as "Anishinaabe") to denote this language? It seems unsourced.
What is the official recommended usage in American English style guides used by the government, newspapers, etc? I would recommend changing the name of the article to Ojibwa language unless the foremost authorities on current American English say otherwise. If that's the case, then we need to compromise between the American and Canadian standardized English term.
If you're concerned about the term feeling exclusive to the Odawa people, we can always say Ojibwa-Odawa language, which I've seen used a lot. And then the article Odawa language focus on that dialect of the Ojibwa language.
The bottom line is that it's not our role to make terminological decisions. We should use the English terms that sources like the gov't, the press, ISO, linguists, etc. use.
-- Sonjaaa ( talk) 22:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
To say an Oji-Cree
s to lay the foundation to both the individual languages and to the
Discussion moved to Talk:Anishinaabe language dialects#Another split? CJLippert 15:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following from the "vocabulary" section: "Contemporary words are created with ease by fluent speakers and a genuine understanding of the complex morpheme chains plays an important role in this process. This flexibility makes the language durable in modern times but difficult to teach as there will often be many ways to describe the same concept. However a sharp distinction must be made between literal and implied translations as they will often differ significantly as in the battery and airplane examples cited above." It more or less repeats the previous info in the section, and is written in somewhat unencyclopedic style (I think). However I think a lot of it addresses some important stuff, so I'm going to try to see if I can work some of it back in. -- Miskwito 23:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
How do I display the characters for ᐊᓂᔑᓈᐯᒧᐎᓐ?
ICE77 -- 81.104.129.226 20:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
While /ənɪʰʃɪnaːpeːmowɪn/ is, I think, a valid phonemic rendering of Anishinaabemowin for some dialects (although in practice the /ʰʃ/ is generally realized in those dialects as [ʃː], as far as I know), I'm not sure /ənɪʃʰɪnaːpeːmowɪn/ really is. As far as I know, the fortis fricatives are never pronounced as aspirated ([sʰ], [ʃʰ], etc. are difficult to distinguish from plain [s], [ʃ], etc. in any case) in any dialect. It seems to me that it would be more accurate to give the alternate phonemic representation as /ənɪʃːɪnaːpeːmowɪn/ instead of /ənɪʃʰɪnaːpeːmowɪn/. But I could be wrong! (Of course, there's also a question of whether, say, /nɪʃːnaːpeːmwɪn/ and the like should be included as well...) -- Miskwito ( talk) 20:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I've been wondering: Is there an Anishinaabemowin Wikipedia in plan?-- Jeziorko ( talk) 02:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's gather the various sources to compare the standardized English names for this language and its dialects according to different authorities.
ISO 639-3 | AP Stylebook and Webster's New World College Dictionary 4th edition | Canadian Oxford Dictionary | ISO 639-1 | ISO 639-2 | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
maintained by | SIL International ( Ethnologue) | Oxford | Infoterm (International Information Center for Terminology) | U.S. Library of Congress | |
used by | major Canadian newspapers, Canadian publishing houses, Canadian government, Canadian Press Stylebook | ||||
Ojibwa language | Ojibwa | Ojibwa (also Ojibway, Ojibwe) | Ojibwa | Ojibwa | |
Algonquin | Algonquin (also Algonkin) (Southwestern Quebec, northwest of Ottawa and in adjacent areas of Maniwaki and Golden Lake, Ontario) |
Algonquin (also Algonkin) (along the Ottawa River and its tributaries) |
n/a | n/a | |
Ottawa or Odawa | Ottawa (also Odawa, Ojibwe, Ojibway) (slands in, and areas surrounding, Lake Huron, from the region of Manitoulin Island to southern Ontario north of Lake Erie. Walople Island Reserve. West of a north south line through the base of Bruce Peninsula. Also in USA.) |
Odawa (also Ottawa) (formerly along along the Ottawa River, now especially on Manitoulin Island) |
n/a | n/a | |
Oji-Cree | Severn Ojibwa (also Northern Ojibwa, Ojibway, Ojibwe, Ojicree, Oji-Cree, Cree) (Northern Northwest Ontario into Manitoba) |
Oji-Cree (Northwestern Ontario) |
n/a | n/a | |
Chippewa | Chippewa (also Southwestern Ojibwa, Ojibwe, Ojibway) (Upper Michian-Wisconsin Chippewa, Central Minnesota Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Minnesota Border Chippewa. Turtle Mountain in North Dakota shares features with Central Minnesota. Red Lake includes Northwest Angle on shore of Lake of the Woods. Nett Lake on the Minnesota border is closely related to Lac la Croix (Rainy River Ojibwa of Northwestern Ojibwa) in Ontario.) |
Chippewa (also Ojibwa) (east, south, and southwest of the Great Lakes) |
n/a | n/a | |
Central Ojibwa | Central Ojibwa (also Central Ojibwe, Ojibway, Ojibwe) (Central Ontario from Lake Nipigon in the west to Lake Nipissing in the east.) |
n/a | n/a | n/a | |
Eastern Ojibwa | Eastern Ojibwa (also Ojibwe, Ojibway) (Southern Ontario, north of Lake Ontario and east of Georgian Bay. East of a north-south line through the base of the Bruce Peninsula) |
n/a | n/a | n/a | |
Saulteaux | Western Ojibwa (also Saulteaux, Plains Ojibway, Ojibway, Ojibwe) (Westward from Lake Winnipeg into Saskatchewan with outlying groups as far west as British Colombia) |
Saulteaux (also Salteaux) (formerly on the shore of Lake Superior north of Sault Ste. Marie, but now especially in Manitoba) |
n/a | n/a | |
Northwestern Ojibwa | Northwestern Ojibwa (also Northern Ojibwa, Ojibway, Ojibwe) (Southern northwest Ontario into Manitoba.) |
n/a | n/a | n/a |
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/English_list.php
-- 206.248.172.247 ( talk) 17:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Changing “Anishinaabe language” to “Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa” is very unfortunate and linguistically misleading. Potawatomi is indisputably a separate language distinct from any variety of Ojibwe, although certainly closely related to Ojibwe. Sandwiching Potawatomi between “Ojibwa” and “Ottawa” – leaving the non-Algonquianist with the impression that Potawatomi is somehow intermediate between the other two, or equivalent in linguistic status - is even more unfortunate. The discussion under "Classification" doesn't help much since it invokes "Ojibwa-Ottawa," which is not a label that is used at all in the literature on Ojibwe. The relationship between this article, the "Ojibwa-Ottawa language" article, and the "Potawatomi language" article needs to be clarified, and the same can be said for the proliferation of other articles on varieties of Ojibwe. As well, this article is almost completely lacking in citations. John. Jomeara421 ( talk) 03:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why "Potawatomi" was added, but I'm currently preferring to call the article
Ojibwa-Odawa language. This is the wording that was used as well in the language classes I was given by a guy from Manitoulin who teaches the language in Toronto now.--
Sonjaaa (
talk) 13:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
This is the
talk page of a
redirect that has been
merged and now targets the page: • Ojibwe language Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at: • Talk:Ojibwe language Merged page edit history is maintained in order to preserve attributions. |
This redirect does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Otherwise, the article is very good. All the extra information have already been summarised and placed in this article while the specifics of the article were given their own articles as further details. Special thanks to BentRedNewt/ Whimemsz for all the dedicated efforts!! CJLippert 18:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I feel the layout of this article should be changed a bit to conform to the WikiProject Languages template. So I'm going to go ahead and change it. -- Whimemsz 22:40, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)
Are you sure that Ojibwa is not Central Algonquian? Algonquian has three branches, Eastern, Central, and Plains. The Eastern branch has ten languages (including Abnaki, Micmac, Mohegan, Powhatan, Maliseet-Passamaquoddy and Wampanoag); the Plains branch includes Blackfoot, Arapaho and Cheyenne; there are several "outliers" that do not belong to any of the three branches (including Mahican, Piscataway, Lumbee and Carolina Algonquian); and then there is the big Central branch which counts 23 languages (including the several Cree groups, Montagnais, Potowatomi, Kickapoo, Shawnee, Algonkin, Menominee, Fox, Miami, Ottawa, and, as I understand it, Ojibwa).
Checking this on Ethnologue, I see that they show it as Algic - Algonquian - Central - Ojibwa (see Ethnologue report on Ojibwa). — Stephen 09:39, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I would say that in the case of Ojibwe, especially in Central and Eastern Ojibwe, as well as in Odawa, terms "accent" and "syncope" are one and the same. The word for "horse" is "bebezhigooganzhii", given as an example in the article. The metred foot would be "(be)(be-zhi)(goo-gan)(zhii)" but due to the resulting syncope, a pure byproduct of the accent meter, makes the word sound like "bbezhgoognzhii" with the unstressed long vowel reduced to a short neutral vowel while the unstressed short vowel dropping out entirely.
In Wisconsin, the unstressed short vowels don't drop out, but often instead go through transformation. However, this doesn't quite happen with the "horse" example, making the word sound like "bbezhigooganzhii". In Minnesota, and Ontario Saulteaux, the word sounds as the way it is written "bebezhigooganzhii". Manitoba Saulteaux, instead uses an entirely different word: "mishtadim", which do experience the reduction and sounds like "mashtadim". CJLippert 03:23, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The article is nearly 50kb now. We should probably split it into a couple of smaller ones (probably the phonology section and writing section at least). Does anyone have any suggestions about what path to take? -- Whimemsz 23:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Do we want to keep the current title "Ojibwe language" or would it make more sense to migrate the article to a new title, maybe something like the "Anishinaabe language" or "Anishinaabemowin"? The main reason for this question is, in my opinion, having the "Ojibwe language" title seems to exclude the Odawa, Nipissing, Mississaugas, Algonquin and Saulteaux, but saying "Anishinaabe language" would include these groups. However, the shift would also beg the question of if the Potawatomi language would be folded into the article with the new name or if there ought to be an expanded discussion on the dialects, with a short paragraph or two regarding the Potawatomi language and providing a "Main article: ..." link in that section. Ideas, suggestions and your vote, please. CJLippert 23:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
The Canadian Oxford Dictionary, which is the authority used by the Canadian gov't, Canadian Press, newspapers, etc. recommends these English terms:
Ojibwa (also Ojibway, Ojibwe): 1. a member of an Algonquian people living especially around Lake Superior and certain adjacent areas. 2. the Algonquian language of these people [etymology: Ojibwa language, from a root meaning "puckered", with reference to their moccasins]
ISO 639-3 also prefers the term Ojibwa.
Although the term "Anishinaabe" might be accurate in the Ojibwa language itself, it's a non-standard English term (for the English Wikipedia). Which English language style guides and authorities recommend using terms other than Ojibwa (such as "Anishinaabe") to denote this language? It seems unsourced.
What is the official recommended usage in American English style guides used by the government, newspapers, etc? I would recommend changing the name of the article to Ojibwa language unless the foremost authorities on current American English say otherwise. If that's the case, then we need to compromise between the American and Canadian standardized English term.
If you're concerned about the term feeling exclusive to the Odawa people, we can always say Ojibwa-Odawa language, which I've seen used a lot. And then the article Odawa language focus on that dialect of the Ojibwa language.
The bottom line is that it's not our role to make terminological decisions. We should use the English terms that sources like the gov't, the press, ISO, linguists, etc. use.
-- Sonjaaa ( talk) 22:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
To say an Oji-Cree
s to lay the foundation to both the individual languages and to the
Discussion moved to Talk:Anishinaabe language dialects#Another split? CJLippert 15:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following from the "vocabulary" section: "Contemporary words are created with ease by fluent speakers and a genuine understanding of the complex morpheme chains plays an important role in this process. This flexibility makes the language durable in modern times but difficult to teach as there will often be many ways to describe the same concept. However a sharp distinction must be made between literal and implied translations as they will often differ significantly as in the battery and airplane examples cited above." It more or less repeats the previous info in the section, and is written in somewhat unencyclopedic style (I think). However I think a lot of it addresses some important stuff, so I'm going to try to see if I can work some of it back in. -- Miskwito 23:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
How do I display the characters for ᐊᓂᔑᓈᐯᒧᐎᓐ?
ICE77 -- 81.104.129.226 20:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
While /ənɪʰʃɪnaːpeːmowɪn/ is, I think, a valid phonemic rendering of Anishinaabemowin for some dialects (although in practice the /ʰʃ/ is generally realized in those dialects as [ʃː], as far as I know), I'm not sure /ənɪʃʰɪnaːpeːmowɪn/ really is. As far as I know, the fortis fricatives are never pronounced as aspirated ([sʰ], [ʃʰ], etc. are difficult to distinguish from plain [s], [ʃ], etc. in any case) in any dialect. It seems to me that it would be more accurate to give the alternate phonemic representation as /ənɪʃːɪnaːpeːmowɪn/ instead of /ənɪʃʰɪnaːpeːmowɪn/. But I could be wrong! (Of course, there's also a question of whether, say, /nɪʃːnaːpeːmwɪn/ and the like should be included as well...) -- Miskwito ( talk) 20:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I've been wondering: Is there an Anishinaabemowin Wikipedia in plan?-- Jeziorko ( talk) 02:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Let's gather the various sources to compare the standardized English names for this language and its dialects according to different authorities.
ISO 639-3 | AP Stylebook and Webster's New World College Dictionary 4th edition | Canadian Oxford Dictionary | ISO 639-1 | ISO 639-2 | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
maintained by | SIL International ( Ethnologue) | Oxford | Infoterm (International Information Center for Terminology) | U.S. Library of Congress | |
used by | major Canadian newspapers, Canadian publishing houses, Canadian government, Canadian Press Stylebook | ||||
Ojibwa language | Ojibwa | Ojibwa (also Ojibway, Ojibwe) | Ojibwa | Ojibwa | |
Algonquin | Algonquin (also Algonkin) (Southwestern Quebec, northwest of Ottawa and in adjacent areas of Maniwaki and Golden Lake, Ontario) |
Algonquin (also Algonkin) (along the Ottawa River and its tributaries) |
n/a | n/a | |
Ottawa or Odawa | Ottawa (also Odawa, Ojibwe, Ojibway) (slands in, and areas surrounding, Lake Huron, from the region of Manitoulin Island to southern Ontario north of Lake Erie. Walople Island Reserve. West of a north south line through the base of Bruce Peninsula. Also in USA.) |
Odawa (also Ottawa) (formerly along along the Ottawa River, now especially on Manitoulin Island) |
n/a | n/a | |
Oji-Cree | Severn Ojibwa (also Northern Ojibwa, Ojibway, Ojibwe, Ojicree, Oji-Cree, Cree) (Northern Northwest Ontario into Manitoba) |
Oji-Cree (Northwestern Ontario) |
n/a | n/a | |
Chippewa | Chippewa (also Southwestern Ojibwa, Ojibwe, Ojibway) (Upper Michian-Wisconsin Chippewa, Central Minnesota Chippewa, Red Lake Chippewa, Minnesota Border Chippewa. Turtle Mountain in North Dakota shares features with Central Minnesota. Red Lake includes Northwest Angle on shore of Lake of the Woods. Nett Lake on the Minnesota border is closely related to Lac la Croix (Rainy River Ojibwa of Northwestern Ojibwa) in Ontario.) |
Chippewa (also Ojibwa) (east, south, and southwest of the Great Lakes) |
n/a | n/a | |
Central Ojibwa | Central Ojibwa (also Central Ojibwe, Ojibway, Ojibwe) (Central Ontario from Lake Nipigon in the west to Lake Nipissing in the east.) |
n/a | n/a | n/a | |
Eastern Ojibwa | Eastern Ojibwa (also Ojibwe, Ojibway) (Southern Ontario, north of Lake Ontario and east of Georgian Bay. East of a north-south line through the base of the Bruce Peninsula) |
n/a | n/a | n/a | |
Saulteaux | Western Ojibwa (also Saulteaux, Plains Ojibway, Ojibway, Ojibwe) (Westward from Lake Winnipeg into Saskatchewan with outlying groups as far west as British Colombia) |
Saulteaux (also Salteaux) (formerly on the shore of Lake Superior north of Sault Ste. Marie, but now especially in Manitoba) |
n/a | n/a | |
Northwestern Ojibwa | Northwestern Ojibwa (also Northern Ojibwa, Ojibway, Ojibwe) (Southern northwest Ontario into Manitoba.) |
n/a | n/a | n/a |
http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/English_list.php
-- 206.248.172.247 ( talk) 17:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Changing “Anishinaabe language” to “Ojibwa-Potawatomi-Ottawa” is very unfortunate and linguistically misleading. Potawatomi is indisputably a separate language distinct from any variety of Ojibwe, although certainly closely related to Ojibwe. Sandwiching Potawatomi between “Ojibwa” and “Ottawa” – leaving the non-Algonquianist with the impression that Potawatomi is somehow intermediate between the other two, or equivalent in linguistic status - is even more unfortunate. The discussion under "Classification" doesn't help much since it invokes "Ojibwa-Ottawa," which is not a label that is used at all in the literature on Ojibwe. The relationship between this article, the "Ojibwa-Ottawa language" article, and the "Potawatomi language" article needs to be clarified, and the same can be said for the proliferation of other articles on varieties of Ojibwe. As well, this article is almost completely lacking in citations. John. Jomeara421 ( talk) 03:15, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why "Potawatomi" was added, but I'm currently preferring to call the article
Ojibwa-Odawa language. This is the wording that was used as well in the language classes I was given by a guy from Manitoulin who teaches the language in Toronto now.--
Sonjaaa (
talk) 13:09, 27 December 2008 (UTC)