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"Criticism of intellectual communities"
you know i hate to say it, but this section is incredibly unclear in parts. needs a rewrite for clarity. good god, it discusses how chomsky values straightforward language and fails to make sense itself
"Criticism of Mass Media"
I don't know how all the criticism on Chomsky's critique of mass media bias got in the section on Media Bias, but with the numerous references to a "Criticism of Chomsky" it's rather unneccesary to put it in the main page. It comes off as thought someone really wanted to get their criticism in the main page, regardless of the NPOV. Perhaps it would be better served being put in the "Criticism" page. In comparsion, the part about BF Skinner's book and the criticism of Chomsky's review is very well done. Make fixing that section an objective?
Thank you for presenting a well-balanced, warts-and-all portrayal of this "controversial" American figure. Most of the left-leaning pages on Wikipedia are full of self-congratulatory and uncritical assertions -- yours isn't. Thank you for presenting a balanced and encyclopedic entry. Morton devonshire 20:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Why is there so much material on how to pronounce his name? It seems utterly pointless and the jargon employed to do so is meaningless to 99% of well educated people.
- A random Harvard student...
I'm going to delete the word "controversial" from the first sentence. Albert Einstein wrote socialist "peacenik" tracts which enflammed the sensibilities of some americans, yet his wiki article does not immediately slander him as "controversial" in its very first line. Obviously, some things-- both scientific and political-- have generated "controversy." But it seems inappropriate to use that word in the very first sentence of the wiki; it's extremely UNINFORMATIVE, essentially sensational, and seems intended to immediately discredit Chomsky as an entity upon whom the "jury" is "still out". It seems to cast immediate doubt on the man as somebody who can provide insights about the world like anybody else, and in fact has a great ability to do so. Practically any historical or contemporary figure could be described as "controversial"; it would seem that the only requirement is that somebody, somewhere, complains about them. But the truth is, the term "controversial" is totally uninformative, and if anything, misleading in the sentiment that it usually arises. If Chomsky has generated so-called "controversy", great--- let's let the facts speak for themselves throughout the rest of the article, which is what it's there for. Would anybody add "controversial" to the first line of George Bush's wiki? Or to Aristotle's? It strikes me as a silly idea, for any wiki. If there's so-called "controversy", then write about the specifics of it in the body of the article under a specific subheading.
Now, about the "grassroots" issue that you people are talking about: obviously, it depends on what you mean by "grassroots." however, if something can potentially be demonstrated, then it's not "factually incorrect" to simply declare it. If anything, it's merely unproven or unsubstantiated. So you're out of line. Anyway, more importantly, there are endless examples to show that what you said is inaccurate. The viet cong, among other communist movements, were armed and supported by soviet resources and technology, but functioned as its own command hierarchy. If you'd been in Vietnam, I think you would have realized this. Ho Chi Minh and the military forces were never under soviet nor sino "control" any more than churchill was under roosevelt's, or any more than osama bin laden and his marauders were under CIA/US-military control during the Afghan/Soviet war. It's even more true for the khmer rouge in cambodia. pol pot's regime was completely un-soviet in style; they did not need soviet nor sino control to cause the destruction and death that they did. these facts will clash with your ideas about the world, because you're clueless about history. These marxist/maoist movements never needed the soviets or the chinese to control them or to maintain. That's what they are: sustained movements that take over a country. Moreover, very illustratively, you seemed so eager to make your unsubstantiated, sensational claim, that you vaguely said "no major group" was independent from soviet/sino control. Obviously, there were hundreds of "major groups" (vague) that had nothing to do with the soviets, for example, the united states of america, which is a "major group" if there ever was one. Additionally, the soviet union no longer exists-- I'm sure you noticed this-- but several communist powers still do. You limited your comment to "during the cold war", but reality refutes the loosely-strung implications of your statements. "...or not heavily influenced by them" is clearly a weak and foolish thing to say, considering the political polarization of the world during the cold war, and that polarization doesn't mean that "grassroots" movements can't arise or didn't exist.
Your wild, sloppy remarks have contributed nothing to this discussion. At this point I hope we can agree on one thing: it's not productive to argue about how realistic the qualification "grassroots" is if we haven't even defined it. And your terms ("grassroots movements are by definition not influenced by [anything?]") aren't going to cut it. Feel free to keep trying. When you get a clue, then we can have a discussion about how careless Chomsky may or may not have been at various points when talking about the [insert an agrarian communist movement].
Trey and TDC are making some edits that I feel are mostly destructive and have been forced to revert. If they want to put forward some arguments for such edits, they can do it here. Until I see some justifications, I'll have to just revert them. — Chameleon 12:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Naturally you would feel these edits are destructive as they tarnish Chomsky's halo. I might also add tat this article is the one of the worst examples of creep around. As soon as it becomes balanced and well written, it slowly devolves into love fest for the topic.
At any rate, back to the matter at hand.
Stating that marxist/maoist movements in Asia were "grassroots" is factually incorrect. No major group during the cold war was either independent from Soviet/Sino control or not heavily influenced by them. To simply call these grassroots, is factually incorrect, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.
Providing a biased description of the Hoover Institute on this page is nothing more than a subtle attempt to smear it. This article is about Chomsky and to a lesser extent what others have had to say about his works and opinions. This article is not the place to preoperatively label people who have had things to say about him. Descriptions of the organization and individuals belong on their separate Wikipedia entries, not here. TDC 17:46, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
from the interview in the Chomsky Reader published in 1987. p.26-27
"Take the Vietnam War. It was clear by the end of the sixties that the United States had achieved its primary objectives. It had effectively destroyed the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam and the Pathet Lao in Laos, ensuring, as I wrote at the time, that only the harshest and most authoritarian elements in Indochina would survive, if any would. This was a major victory for U.S. aggression. Principled opponents of the U.S. war were therefore in the position of, in effect, helping to defend the only surviving resistance in Vietnam, which happened to be highly authoritarian state-socialist groups. Now I don't think that was a reason for not opposing the American War in Vietnam, but I think it's a reason why many anarchists could not throw themselves into the struggle with the energy and sympathy that they might have. Some did, but others were reluctant because they were highly critical of the regime that was going to emerge, as I was. Within peace movement groups, I tried to dissociate opposition to the American war from suppport for state socialism in Vietnam, as many will recall. But it was no easy task to undertake serious opposition to imperial aggression, with the very real personal costs that this entailed, on such a basis. This was easy enough for bystanders who were satisfied to cluck their tongues in dismay, but it was quite a different matter for those- primarily young- people who were really trying to do something to end these atrocities. In fact, the American movement tended to become quite pro-North Vietnamese, segments of it, at least. They felt that they were not simply opposing the American war, but they were defending the North Vietnamese vision of a future society.
Next something to consider from radical historian Carolyn Eisenberg, who you should be familiar with from the criticism section : "To take the case of Vietnam. It took the antiwar movement years to drive home the point that the NLF was an indigenous movement, and that rather than being a Soviet creation, the NLF was, if anything. struggling to get Russian aid." (Radical History Review, 1989). (Note: I do realize that indigenous is not synonymous with "grassroots", nevetheless take it for what it says, the NLF was not anyone's puppet."
Finally from Gabriel Kolko, who Chomsky has cited for amny years on Vietnam, an excerpt from his classic history, "Anatomy of a War.":
"The (NLF) Party always understood the crucial role of local initiative and mass participation, particularly as the increasing demands of security reduced the higher level’s quick access to grass-roots organizations, and adaptively strove to overcome any elitist, passive tendencies which existed, all the while defining a broad, common framework for action. The Peasants liberation Association was the largest of the NLF mass groups, and in many older revolutionary areas it was the real local administration. By mid-1965, according to the CIA, the various liberation associations had roughly half a million members. Other U.S. estimates for a later period showed that anywhere from one-half to three-quarters of the rural society in the NLF-controlled regions participated in the many facets of the local administration’s work – compared with one-fifth in "contested" areas and with less in solid RVN regions. The local Party branches, too, were instructed to assume as many key responsibilities and possible and to operate autonomously of the higher Party on local administrative questions. This made local Revolutionary government far move responsible to the masses than was the typically bureaucratic RVN system, as well as capable of surviving on local resources for military and for other functions." Anatomy of a War- Chapter 10 [user: BernardL]
Your argument that Chomsky support grassroots aspects of SE Asian Marxist/Maoist movements while simultaneously criticizing the authoritarian nature of such movements might be convincing had he done the latter. During the timeframe of the conflict, late 1960’s and early 1970’s Chomsky was silent on any authoritarian or totalitarian bent in these organizations or regimes. And once again, there are no specific “grassroots aspects” of theses movements spelled out in the article.
There are hundreds of adjectives that could be used to describe the Hoover Institute, describing them as “corporate funded” is not only POV, but is also inaccurate. The list of donors to the Hoover Institute clearly shows them to be foundations, not corporations. I realize that you may not see a difference between the two, but anyone familiar with the causes and organizations supported by the Ford Foundation can see that they are most likely not in line with the interests of the Ford Motors. At its core the Hoover Institute is a libertarian think tank, and if it to be described with any adjectives at all in the article this would be the most appropriate. TDC 15:14, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Something appeared in FBIS in 1970, purporting to be a transcript of a speech of mine over radio Hanoi. I never gave any speech over radio Hanoi, or anywhere. It's possible that informal remarks were picked up of mine, or someone, at a meeting of some sort after Doug Dowd, Dick Fernandez and I spent a day travelling through parts of the bombed out countryside and some villages in the neighborhood of Hanoi, a pretty shattering experience. Can't say any more than that. My own report was in the NY Review a few weeks later, reprinted in At War with Asia. This particular item has been circulating for about 30 years, at least.
One of my opponents, a Chomsky defender & self-described "anarchist" of the anti-capitalist variety, Dan Clore, immediately denied that Chomsky had ever made any such speech, & called David Horowitz a "notorious liar". He also accused Horowitz of using a fabricated quote from the socialist historian Ronald Radosh about Chomsky's alleged policy of keeping quiet about the negative aspects of North Vietnam that Chomsky had seen on his tour of the country. Unfortunately, Collier & Horowitz didn't indicate what their source for Chomsky's Hanoi speech was, so I kept looking. I found the primary source in the book "POLITICAL PILGRIMS: Western Intellectuals in Search of the Good Society", by Paul Hollander. Then, with the irreplaceable help of Stephen Denney, an archivist with the UC Berkeley Indochina Center, I was able to obtain a transcript of the entire speech, which I have provided above. [2] J. Parker Stone 20:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the improbable claim that Chomsky, a life-long anarchist, would support a particular authoritarian organisation or leader. Nothing approaching proof has ever been given.
I know, I know, the picture means nothing. He was just there to ...... um ....... argue .... his ..... displeasure with the US embargo. TDC 21:32, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Seriously what do I have to do, find a picture of Chomsky tossing Fidel Castro's salad? I mean come one people, he looks like he is going to felate the left's favorite thug for Christ's sake! TDC 02:18, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
...Chomsky is not a policymaker worried about an Islamic takeover in Iraq. i think there's a little bit of a difference J. Parker Stone 22:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
seriously, i get the impression that nothing short of a makeout session with Castro or Ortega would convince you guys of where Chomsky's sympathies lie J. Parker Stone 22:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
yes it does. policymakers have to deal with unpalatable regimes based on strategic interests. ordinary citizens do not.
yeah, just so happened to bump into him. and policymakers can't really engage in foreign affairs without at times dealing with shady regimes. J. Parker Stone 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
well, Chomsky is vague here, but he clearly seems to be favoring the Castro govt. over the U.S. (Cubans "decide for themselves" despite being repressed by the state apparatus) J. Parker Stone 22:38, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
right, supporting the Castro govt. J. Parker Stone 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
are we going to get rid of the flag or not?
If you follow the webpage Trey links to above, it clearly states that the speech was first published in a journal of the FBIS, that is, the Foreign Broadcast Information Service [FBIS] of the CIA. The publication was therefore made at a time of war by the intelligence/counterintelligence arm of one of the belligerents. Just weeks later, Chomsky set out a piece under his own byline describing his time there, which was quite markedly different from the piece published by the CIA. These are just some of the many reasons to doubt the accuracy of the piece. DanKeshet 21:26, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
This also brings up another interesting point. What Chomsky says on and off the record is quite telling. I will point you to the letter he wrote to Alexander Cockburn regarding Vaclav Havel, among other things [5]
I'd like to point out that we are writing an encyclopedia article about Noam Chomsky, not an authoritative biography. Seeing as we are not excerpting quotations from every speech he has ever given, I don't think it unreasonable to restrict ourselves to speeches and writings which are undoubtedly authentic, which I think will provide plenty of fodder for critics and admirers alike. The quote is being used to summarize Chomsky's views on Communism in Vietnam -- if it's authenticity is dubious, it can hardly serve to do that, disclaimer or no. RadicalSubversiv E 22:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Chameleon, please stop RVing the changes. Nothing has been "shown" to be a fabrication. J. Parker Stone 22:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Check out the Virtual Vietnam Archive at Texas Tech. I found in the Douglas Pike collection of documents something which I've copied the OCR'ed text to here: User:DanKeshet/Chomsky in Vietnam. I haven't cleaned it up much, but the original .PDF is available at that site. Citation: Peace Offensive, 14 April 1970, Folder 06, Box 08, Douglas Pike Collection: Unit 03 - Antiwar Activities, The Vietnam Archive, Texas Tech University. DanKeshet 22:49, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
A speech purported to be given by Noam Chomsky in 1970 while he was in Hanoi is now in question and some editors are attempting to remove it.
The following reasons are given for its being deemed a fake and for removed (these appear to be the major ones).
My responses to the above.
The logic and reasons given for the removal of the speech are entirely unverifiable and conjecture. These reasons hardly warrant the removal of relevant material whose inclusion was decided upon long ago. TDC 11:31, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Trey, the only editors who have claimed to know anything about the speech's authenticity with certainty are you and TDC. Everyone else is of the opinion that since Chomsky denies its authenticity, it should not be used until it can be verified more authoritatively than by a right-wing website. RadicalSubversiv E 20:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wish to make a few points, at present limited to the "speech" itself, since this was posted in the requests for comment section:
This link gives Starr's response to criticism of the authenticity, in which a quote of Chomsky's is mentioned:
I remember well at the time that this was originally published that Chomsky did not deny that it was authentic, in response to a question by Dan Clore, a fan of his. If the "Flag Blackened" link was the source of the remark, it has now disappeared. In any case, there seems now to be a different response altogether, as posted by DanKeshet. The date of this post should be given here, if someone would be so kind. It consists mainly of polemical and ad hominem attacks on US policy and those who mention this speech, respectively. However, there is a substantive claim:
Which is to say, Chomsky does not at all deny that the words are authentic, or that they were broadcast, but denies formally making a speech for Hanoi Radio. It is worth mentioning here that though Starr, in his editorial content, characterized it as a "speech", the quoted passage reads as follows:
- Noam Chomsky, originally delivered on April 13, 1970 in Hanoi while he was visiting North Vietnam with a group of anti-war activists. Broadcast by Radio Hanoi on April 14, and published in the _Asia-Pacific Daily Report_ of the U.S. government's Foreign Broadcast Information Service, April 16, 1970, pages K2-K3.
That these comments were "broadcast" has not been denied, and he has repeatedly admitted that he said similar things in an "informal" context as well as that the words are similar to passages he wrote at the time. As for where they came from, it seems that others have suggested the event mentioned here as a source. The transcript is dated as April 14, 1970, with Chomsky's broadcasted remarks being on the day before. This is not a discrepancy, as they refer to two separate broadcasts, not the broadcast of a single event; therefore this is likely the to be the origination of the comments. There is one odd thing in reading the former however (which is difficult in the unclean presented format); it is this:
As Premier Pham Van Dong has said in his message to the American people on October 14, 1970
The transcript is dated as April 14, 1970 but it refers to an event which would not have taken place for months to come. I am not familiar with whether this remark actually took place in April (and is thus an error) or not. This, however, reflects merely on the authenticity of the transcript concerning the event, not the remarks as given by Tim Starr. If someone would also provide a direct link to this it might clear things up but this source seems odd in the date discrepancy.
The so-called speech therefore seems prudent to mention in a careful context--which is to say that specific allegations were launched against Chomsky by Tim Starr, David Horowitz, and Peter Collier (and probably Paul Hollander, if someone would get that book) about a speech given in North Vietnam, that the comments were published by the FBIS as being broadcast on Hanoi Radio, that Chomsky has himself denied that he had given a speech, but does not deny that such remarks may have been recorded, and believes the remarks could possibly be accurate as presented. How they are interpreted is a different matter, though it is difficult to portray them as innocently as many here would like to. -- TJive June 28, 2005 16:54 (UTC)
According to the Washington Research Library Consortium, the Asia-Pacific Daily Report began in 1974. Of course the WRLC could be wrong. If anyone lives near Georgetown, you could run down and ask them. Frankly, I don't give enough of a shit to bother doing it. Perhaps the people advancing the claim do. Descendall 17:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
First off, I think it's rather reckless to make a major change to an article that's being actively fought over, removing several important pieces of information, and only offer a one-word edit summary as explanation. That's just a recipe for an edit war.
Secondly, although I'd like to hear his reasoning, I think Sam's changes are inappropriate:
RadicalSubversiv E 06:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My edits have better flow. Sam Spade 03:25, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What factual information was removed? Have you compared the two versions yet? Sam Spade 12:53, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I separated the two paragraphs by subject matter. The info a bout his political affiliation... his political affiliations are too weird for the intro, better they be discussed at length later on. As far as what people know him better for, I thought that was an obvious fact, but if not, that can be removed. Sam Spade 16:09, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I mean his ideas are so nutty I doubt many of his fans have a clue what he is talking about... sometimes I wonder if he does! As far as what he's known for thats so obvious I see no need to debate it. He's popular because he's anti-globalist and anti-american, and those are popuar ideas at the moment. His contribution to linguistics seems to be overrated, but we would be remiss not to give it comparable reviews to what can be found elsewhere. [8]. I'll ask my friend who is a linguist, and see what he thinks. Sam Spade 16:20, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, apparently I was wrong, my friend told me that Chomsky's influence in linguistics can't be overstated, particularly given the newness of the field. To be honest I was just assuming his contributions had been exaggerated, since I have heard precious little about his linguistics, and so much about his politics. Whichever, live and learn. Sam Spade 00:09, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
A quote clarifying Chomsky's description of his politics from the essay "Goals and Visions" in Powers and Prospects/Perspectives on Power - an essay I cannot recommend highly enough for those interested in the values that guide his analyis:
1. The given quote is misleading because it does not allow for any description of what an "ethnic homeland" is and how in some form Chomsky has always advocated it. What most would interpret this to mean is that he has always believed Israel to have a legitimate right to exist as it stood, when in fact he has always advocated not only the resettling of Palestinian refugees and their ancestors in Israel (which effects the demographics of the country) but for at least a time believed the whole of Palestine should be one bi-national state, obviously with a majority of Arabs and Palestinians. This could technically be an "ethnic homeland" for the fact that there are Jews and Jewish refugees allowed to live there, but it has never been a predominant position of Zionism at any point that he believed in it since it negates the possibility of any Jewish majority. The issue is thus more complicated than is necessary to expound upon in this section, and so there is no reason to mention the quote in any case; his view of Zionism has already been given.
2. The second hand verbs and digressing style make it so that the article takes a position on the meaning of terrorism and that the Afghan war is an example of it. There are multiple definitions of terrorism even among the agencies of the US government, and needless to say there is not only one possible view as to the Afghan war.
3. Example of Chomsky rationalizing a situations where terrorism is involved. The sentence after however causes the body not only to be redundant but it indirectly allows for his position on the Khmer Rouge and 9/11 to be presented as the only possible one, whereas the article goes on to mention how others have interpreted his remarks on both as uncritical, insufficiently or insincerely so, or relativizing and even rationalizing the acts. -- TJive June 28, 2005 17:50 (UTC)
4. Again, taking out the POV here, others attribute different motives to him. "Official enemy" is even a common term of Chomsky's.
Hold on, here we have one account that looks rather sockpuppetish, and one anonymous user. Can you both please sign on to your usual accounts if you have them? Things would be clearer then. Thanks. — Chameleon 28 June 2005 18:37 (UTC)
See just now it happened again (though I suppose it's possible you did it on purpose. This text was deleted (see here):
Looking back through the edits it also appears that this happened during a revert of Chameleon's, which probably didn't help matters. -- TJive June 28, 2005 23:40 (UTC)
I've just removed a subsection called "Sudan," (in the section of "Criticisms of Chomsky's political views") because it is not a criticism of his views, it is just a criticism of him for having made a simple error in a telephone interview with Salon.com.
It appears that one of the central objectives of this article is to make sure to include "uncomfortable facts." It seems like this is an order to dig up dirt on Chomsky and include potentially embarrassing details that do not have much to do with Chomsky's views. Please help me understand the reasons for us doing this. It seems that the second stated objective of including "uncomfortable facts" contradicts the first objective of keeping the article in tune with wikipedia's NPOV standards. NietzscheFan
Hi, this is the formerly anonymous user, now signed in as NietzscheFan. Pay attention to the fact that the criticism section is called "Criticisms of political views." So, what constitutes a political view? If you were to include a section that says that Chomsky says that the US government is incredibly protectionist, and a refutation or a link to a refutation of this claim that Chomsky espouses in print, that would be appropriate. It is inappropriate, however, to include a section that simply criticizes Chomsky for his memory having failed him. You can only criticize him for his views that he has openly esposed (that means he has to have written about it). Furthermore, even if Chomsky had mistakenly cited Human Rights Watch as having said what number of people were killed as a result of the bombing in print, it would still be inapropriate to criticize him for that here because you would be criticizing him for having made a simple citation error. If you were to criticize Chomsky for being a libertarian-socialist, that would be an applicable criticsm (for this section, "Criticisms of political views").
In fact, the only thing you should be able to criticize Chomsky for is his being a libertarian-socialist (anarchist), because those are his political views.
Now, if you would like to have an section of embarassing blunders, you could try to make one. It would be torn down immediatly, though, because the idea of a section that criticizes Chomsky for his simple citation errors is absurd. Its analogus to having a section on some well known political figure and having a section devoted to how bad his or her math scores in high school were just for the sake of refraining from suppresing "uncomfortable facts." NietzscheFan 30 June 2005 05:51 (UTC)
Also: Yes, you're right Tjive, I am attacking your motives [alright, sorry, I am attacking the motives of the person(s) who decided to include the "Sudan" section. NietzscheFan 30 June 2005 23:09 (UTC)] because I don't understand why it is necessary to include these embarrasing facts. I'm sure you would attack my motives if I were to go to your user page and add "uncomfortable facts" about all the times you've made a mistake. [note text by User:NietzscheFan was deleted, restored by TJive; please do not delete text from the conversation]
I see. I think that objective needs to be reworded, because to someone who has not read your last response might think that what has happened here today is an allowance of "uncomfortable facts" (which could be interpreted as any irrelevant Chomsky blunder) to be "suppressed."
How about this: "Do not remove certain facts simply because they reflect badly on Noam Chomsky. (However, do not include embarrasing facts simply for the reason that they do reflect badly on Chomsky.)" NietzscheFan 30 June 2005 05:51 (UTC)
Sorry, I've added my name to all of my posts. The anon user is me, NietzscheFan. NietzscheFan
I've reworded and revised our stated goals due to the consensus.
NietzscheFan 30 June 2005 23:02 (UTC)
Apparently much of the page had become duplicated at some point, probably when edit conflicts simply caused one edit to overrule another. If there is some other material deleted by accident please correct it. -- TJive June 29, 2005 09:12 (UTC)
I removed this content concerning Hitchens.... " Christopher Hitchens, who once defended Chomsky against charges of being a Pol Pot apologist in a 1985 article titled The Chorus and the Cassandra, has since changed his mind on the subject. He believes that Chomsky and others on the far left have become so determined to decry American policies that they are willing to overlook the true nature of America's enemies."
The political vacillations of Hitchens concern his personal biography rather than this article. He is at best peripheral figure in the Cambodia-Chomsky controversy. His one popular article is not indispensible for the Chomsky defence and he has certainly has never formulated a thoroughgoing critique of Chomsky on Cambodia. Moreover no source is provided for the final two-thirds of this paragraph, which is the main reason why this content has been removed to talk. (Although, I fully recognize that he has been spotted taking posh boat cruises with Horowitz of late.)
from the wikipedia guidelines on sources...
When there is a factual dispute
Disputed statements for which a credible source has not been provided may be removed from Wikipedia articles. The disputed material should generally be moved to the article's talk page, to give an opportunity for editors to identify sources for the material. user:BernardL
This rewrite separates Chomsky's response to the criticism that generative grammar analyses are based on a small number of languages from the criticism itself, adds additional length to the article, and inserts lots of obviously POV wording (e.g. "with increasing amounts of 'wiggle room' in which apparently contradictory evidence can be unified through introduction of new assumptions."). It also has a few factual errors. G&B was never really any more a unified theory than Minimalism: it just seems that way looking back because we have a selective memory and certain papers have entered the orthodox canon over time. Kayne doesn't suggest that languages have underlying English word order, just underlying SVO word order. He absolutely doesn't suggest that all languages work underlyingly "like English". Then we have the claim that much evidence in generative grammar is "essentially anecdotal" -- true enough in a sense: any scientist reporting evidence could be said to be telling an anecdote. Falsifiability is a tricky issue. There's always wiggle room in any scientific discipline, which is why no philosophers of science believe in naive falsificationalism.
Major changes like these are supposed to be discussed in talk first, I think. Cadr 6 July 2005 11:49 (UTC)
You are right that i went rather overboard in this rewrite. however, many of the objections that inserted are things that i've heard repeatedly as a linguistics student. i've spent a fair amount of time speaking with professors about chomsky's theories, and there is huge polarization between those who love them and those who think they're unscientific [that is a charitable way of putting it]. the latter complaints often arise from typologists, computational linguists, and others outside of orthodox syntax who must nonetheless do syntactic work. there should be some way of expressing these -- criticisms are somewhat opinionated by their nature, and there is no doubt that chomsky is extremely polarizing within linguistics as well as politics.
you can certainly disagree over whether gb was more unified than minimalism; however, this is an assertion i've heard from many, including chomskyan syntax professors. there is certainly no unification within minimalism.
"anecdotal" is the wrong word but it is clear that most work in the chomskyan paradigm is based on in-depth studies of a small number of languages, most of them western european languages that have historically influenced each other closely; however, the resulting patterns are almost always claimed to be universal. all "cross-linguistic" studies i've seen are either based on one close-knit family -- invariably germanic or romance -- or on a handful of languages that appear to be chosen largely based on convenience. there is certainly nothing of the sort of explicitly cross-linguistic work, with explicit attempts to be representative across all of the world's languages, that has long been considered the norm in typology.
nb the few in-depth studies within P+P that are *not* based on western european languages often make claims widely at variance with assumed orthodoxy; cf. "the polysynthesis parameter" about mohawk.
as for kayne's theory, you are right that he does not assert "english" word order, but a recurrent theme within chomskyan linguistics is the tendency for its universal axioms to reflect the most-closely-studies languages. hence it is unlikely to be coincidental that svo word order is also that of english; similarly, that all languages are underlyingly assumed to be "configurational", like english.
as for "wiggle room", i don't know how else to express the fact that p+p theories have become increasingly abstract over time, with more and more concomitant assumptions being necessary to reconcile theory and reality. since no one agrees on which assumptions are correct, there is unquestionably more "wiggle room" for theorists to choose the most felicitous assumptions. typical chomskyan papers begin with a long list of the assumptions they are making, many of which are critical to their conclusions. an associated charge of non-falsifiability is not surprising in this context; this is obviously an opinion, not a fact, but it is an often-raised criticism.
as for "too long", this is hardly tenable. this whole article is long, but that is inevitable given chomsky's presence. chomsky is obviously more respected as a linguist and philosopher than a pundit, but 2/3 of this article is about his political activities, i.e. linguistics is under-represented.
Benwing 23:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
I would have to agree that linguistics is somewhat under-represented; in his 1994 book 'The Language Instinct' Steven Pinker goes to far as to say the following:
While I do not suggest the inclusion of POV to beef up sections that are otherwise under-represented, I think that additional NPOV information about Chomsky's linguistic contributions should be quite welcome. -- phreyan 3:09, 15 July 2005
I believe this is an important point. I changed it earlier, but someone reverted it. Does anyone have an objection in inserting the "swing state" fact? cihan 6 July 2005 23:56 (UTC)
I agree that so much detail about whether he supports Kerry or not might not be necessary. My problem was the statement that he supported Kerry, which was way it was phrased before I made the edit. I think the current edit uses 'tactical support' which is also fine. I just thought it is not accurate to flatly say that he supported Kerry, that's all. So, to wrap up, I am fine if that whole paragraph is taken out, but it is inaccurate to say anywhere without qualifiers that he supported Kerry. As it is now, it reads fine by me. cihan 23:33, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
To drive the point home, also include that he frequently referred to Kerry as "Bush-lite".
npov tags need *clear* discussion indicating why; otherwise they will proliferate in every controversial article.
Benwing 23:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
This article is on 38 page-downs. History of the world is on 8 page-downs. May I suggest Noam Chomsky to pioneer for a new type of article called Noam Chomsky (short article), Noam Chomsky (summary) or something similar; where the contents of the main article is summarized in actual article length instead of chapter ditto. -- Salleman 11:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
"Wikis and any public reviewing or consensus processes have to be regulated and closed to the public at large for them to work effectively over time. While the Wikipedia does have great value at the moment, it has been worked on mostly by idealists rather than vandals. But you can already see the first stages of entropy as self-serving entries begin to appear. The enormous entry on Noam Chomsky is a perfect example." [11]
A perfect example of what exactly? Apparently, it's not the neutrality of this article that's at stake here: it's the length.
I might point out that this is a man who calls Kuro5hin a blog. That hardly inspires confidence. - Ta bu shi da yu 16:33, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Dvorak somewhat hits the mark. I've only looked over the intro pagraph but I've found the descriptions of his achievement far too superlative, moreso than in any highly collaborative article I've ever read on this site. Please find a way to express his enormous impact without veering into fulsome praise. Avoid excessively sprinkling words such as landmark, revolutionary, etc. lots of issues | leave me a message 18:40, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
What is currently the precise dispute about the neutrality? Can anyone please point this out? If so, please let's work to figure out if we can revise the parts creating the dispute. If not, let us please remove the "neutrality is disputed" thing in the beginning of the article cihan 00:39, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Since I am kind of new, I don't know... Is it possible to mark a section rather than condemn the whole article to be non-neutral? Actually, the proposition about breaking the article up into other pieces, and/or summarizing it might also remove this problem, so that we would know what small portion is disputed. How would we go about summarizing, or breaking the article up into pieces? Has this been done for any of the biographies here before? cihan 00:45, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
if christopher "i was a luxemburg-trotskyoid-marxist" hitchens isn't a leftist i don't know who is. J. Parker Stone 04:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Can we close this issue now? After all, the "neutrality disputed" tag is gone now, which was what this section was originally about. -- MarkSweep 04:13, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
This page is becoming a fan page. These fans seem to immediately censor/delete any criticism, rather than adding alternative views. Chomsky's most controversial quotes and positions are thoroughly white-washed on this page. They should be presented clearly and addressed clearly, not buried in pseudo-"analysis" whose only purpose seems to muddy the waters. They "delete" and refer you to "talk", while "talk" never results in any "consensus" (ie. their permission), essentially delaying any criticism on the page forever. Why is dissent so unwelcomed? Talk about "manufacturing consent".
Here is a quote of the full paragraph showing the context:
The last line clearly refers specifically to the article written in NY Times Mag by Robert Moss. The article claims a slaughter of a million people by the Khmer Rouge as of 1976! Moss’s figure is based on a distortion of Barron and Paul’s reference to an interview that took place in 1976. Needless to say there was no credible evidence for a slaughter of a million people in 1976, nor in January 1977 when Barron & Paul’s book went to press, nor in May, 1977 at the time Moss’s article was published, nor in June 1977, at the time of the appearance of “Distortions at Fourth Hand.” One of the commonly held estimates of excess deaths (above the norm) for the total period of the Khmer regime (1975-1979) is 1.67 million advanced by the Cambodia Genocide Project (Ben Kiernan). Kiernan’s position is that the worst atrocities attributable to the central direction of the Khmer Rouge occurred from May to November in 1978. One can only conclude that Tjive and friends are so blinded by their hatred that they cannot even fathom the most elementary points concerning a chronology of events. User: BernardL
Some users seem to be under the impression here that I am interested in entertaining their replays of semantic disputes which have raged over the most intellectually sophisticated of....internet blogs for literally several years now. This is not so. What is pertinent here is that a charitable interpretation of Chomsky's words is vastly inappropriate when in fact it is precisely what engendered so much controversy in the first place. -- TJive 23:59, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
I have voluntarily removed background info on Morris from the article. Here is some representative background info on Morris's disputes with Cambodia scholars for those interested....
[ Cambodia Scholars disown Morris] [ Ben Kiernan responds to an attack on Chomsky implicating him] [ Cambodia scholar Michael Vickery responds to attack by Morris on Chomsky implicating him]
For those interested last week I asked Chomsky in his forum some questions concerning criticisms associating his media analysis with the Marxist theory of false consciousness. If anyone wants to ask a credible related follow-up question I would be happy to forward it. I think it's safe to say that the critique based upon the "false consciousness" line of argument is a pretty spurious case of guilt by association.
Q: Some critics from the right (ie:Victor Davis Hansen) tend to dismiss your and Herman's media analysis referring to it as just a recycled version of the Marxist theory of false consciousness.
NC: You'd have to ask Hansen what perverse line of reasoning -- more accurately, free association -- led him to his conclusions. Any sane and rational person can see that the analysis is just what is described: an institutional analysis that relies on relatively uncontroversial guided free market models -- in fact, those that Hansen probably professes himself, even if he goes berserk when their consequences are exposed.
Q: While I realize that the term "manufacturing consent" actually originates from early American media theory,
NC: The term "manufacturing consent" is taken from Walter Lippmann. He was not in this case constructing any media theory, but rather recommending what the "responsible men" (always including the author himself) should do to ensure that the "ignorant and meddlesome outsiders" (the public) don't interfere with the decisions of the responsible men for the public good (by definition).
Q: I would still like to know if you accept the comparison of your work to the doctrine of "false consciousness." And if not why?
NC: I don't know of any doctrine of "false consciousness," apart from the trivial and uncontroversial fact that the doctrinal institutions of any society (including, for us, media, educational systems, churches, etc.) articulate and present systems of belief that commonly reflect the interests and goals of those who dominate the institutions -- hardly a surprise. If that's the comparison that is intended, sure. What question could there be?
Q: I think Marcuse deserves much of the credit for developing some passing comments by Engels into a more substantial theory of ideology he terms false consciousness. On the face of it there are some similarities with your views. Marcuse adhered to the views of the young Marx who felt that capitalist social relations alienated humans from expressions of their "species-being", views for which you show some affinity in your "Notes on Anarchism" essay.
NC: I don't know of any substantive theories of ideology. The ideas of the early Marx on alienation are pretty much drawn from the Enlightenment-Romantic intellectual environment of his day, often in very similar words. I think these notions have a lot of value, and have written about them, in the essay you mention and elsewhere.
Q: For Marcuse, capitalism engendered "false" consciousness and "false" needs in the sense that they are unnatural. Do you agree with this line of argument?
NC: Putting aside Marcuse's contributions, there is a rich literature about the ways in which market systems and "created wants" were imposed, often by violence, on the general population, which bitterly resisted them, and still does. Meanwhile the masters devised numerous ways to protect themselves from the destructive impact of the systems they were imposing on others. That's a good part of the history of the past several centuries. What is "natural" depends on unknown facts about human nature. We do, however, know a lot about the resistance to the doctrines and institutions imposed by force. I don't know what line of argument there is beyond this.
Q: Finally critics seem to think that people who hold this position must be automatically and inevitably elitist. Implying that your views mean that "the masses have been so manipulated that they have neither the perspective or intellect to see beyond the propaganda and require superior intellects like Chomsky's to point out to them the real truth." How would you respond to such a charge?
NC: Since I've consistently and extensively written precisely the opposite, and detailed the reasons and the record at length, the charge can only come from someone so irrational and blinded by ideological fanaticism that they cannot read simple sentences. There is therefore no reason to respond.
"PIECE OF SHIT. ASSASSIN, HYPOCRITICAL AMERICAN.
HE PAID HIS PRICE BY DYING OF PAIN AND SUFFERING."
It was not me! ...but you guy(s) better go rescue your hero. user:BernardL
"Since his visit to Cuba in 2003, Chomsky has failed miserably to denounce the repression against peacefull opponents of Castro's regime and the application of the death penalty agianst 3 negros as did Jose Saramago, the Portuguese intelectual, member of the Portuguese Communist Party. Some much for Chomsky's anarchist credentials."
Can anyone substantiate a word of this? -- TJive 21:46, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
-There isn't a scratch of evidence to suggest that Chomsky is pro-Castro. It seems unfair to leave the photo up; I'm sure Chomsky has met many intellectuals and political figures and has been friendly even though he disagrees with them.
A conservative (possibly TJive or J. Parker Stone) has made it so that when you search for Chomsky it redirects you to Stalin can anyone fix this?
I'm posting here in an effort to circumvent the convolution of this already massive talk page, and what appears to be bickering -- good-natured or otherwise -- between supporters and denegrators alike of Noam Chomsky. The bottom line that I can see is this: Chomsky's article can be further augmented for the better with regards to size and content.
Make no mistake -- this is an encyclopedia, and more information is always beneficial, provided it is NPOV and accurate. However, at some points the need to divide articles arises, particularly in the event that an article's size becomes a discouraging factor to the "casual scholar." Specific to this article, I realize that its size and subject matter have become a point of pride or derision for many involved; I would propose that everyone take a step back and consider the entire article objectively. What has been written as an article on one man, Noam Chomsky, now encompasses many subjects that -- although related to Chomsky -- are not necessarily integral to this page. That does NOT mean they should be deleted, but that a reorganization should be considered.
I have a couple of suggestions for trimming the article -- some more applicable (or implementable, as it were) than others: [Due to the nature of this particular talk page, I must state ahead of time that none of these suggestions are attacks on the methodology of any other Wikipedia posters -- only suggestions based on comparison of this Wikipedia article with alternate sources on the same subject.]
1. Avoid "book reporting". In any article about an author, a line must be drawn between the works and the writer. While some explanation of a publication's subject matter is necessary, we should relegate, where possible, information specifically about a book to its own article. Look for example, at the articles on Henry Thoreau or Steven Pinker. While we can introduce an author's works, the article is indeed about Noam Chomsky, not "Manufacturing Consent" -- though he wrote it.
2. Consolidate similar subcategories. Instead of scrolling pages and pages, why not create an article called "Criticism of Chomsky" and have the subcategories there? While it is important to note that Chomsky has been criticized, we can do so without discussing these events in great depth on the same page that lists his name and birth-date. Creating articles like "Criticism of Chomsky" and "Chomskyan Criticism" (which would be his own criticisms) would not mean deleting any mention of them as a whole on this page. In many ways, this diversification of articles would help by making these individual subjects the central item in their own pieces as opposed to being consigned to notes or sections in a larger work. This reorganization would also apply to the myriad of links at the bottom of the Chomsky page, which could then be moved to the appropriate articles. Whether or not "Criticism of Chomsky" is referred to in the main text or listed as a "related article" -- or both -- would be at the editors' discretion. Another benefit of article diversification like this would be the ability to mark individual articles as "Neutrality Disputed" instead of stamping such on the entire Chomsky piece. [While I understand said stamp has since been rectified, the fervor with which this article is maintained could easily give rise to such objections again.]
I understand that many of you know more about the subject at hand, as well as more about Wikipedia editing in general. My intent here is to provide some objective ideas -- take them or leave them -- about what could be done with this article to ease some of the controversy found on this very talk page and, perhaps more importantly, make [the article] more readable or less intimidating for the average Wikipedia user. I do not claim to understand the subtle dynamics of who is supporting Chomsky and vice versa, I just think that we have the opportunity to refine what is already an impressive Wiki article. phreyan August 1 2005 1:12 PM
Any characterization of Chomky´s work in Linguistics in terms of just 'influencing the field' as was proposed in a recent reversal is wrong and essentially misguided.
Let us start with his doctoral dissertation. It was so atypical of the work done by the linguistic establishement that it found no publisher, and it was only by intervention of R. Jakobson-- another outsider and one of the founding fathers of XX century formal linguistics--that a short version was eventually published in Holland in a rather obscure series ,Janua Linguarum.
Secondly, it was necessary an almost book-lenghth review of Syntactic Structures by Bob Lees to begin to give a glimpse of the inportance and revolutionary character of his work to the outside world, meaning the structuralist-descriptivist establishment, who largely ignored it .
In fact it was the change in attitude that was simmering in some areas outside mainstream psychology, like cybernetics, information theory, and early artificial intelligence that was to frutify in what we now call the cogintive revolution -- bombastic or not -- that made Chomsky´s own ideas about language acceptable . He himself contributed to this by a celebrated review of Skinner´s work that revealed the limitations of any behaviorist approach to mental phenomena.
This is all plain today and was assimilated into mainstream academia.
It was at the time a complete break from the established methodology and goals of linguistic research. In fact it was so new that no linguist educated in the structuralist tradition ever came to appreciate the novelty of Chomky´s work.
That´s when we -- bombastically or not -- talk of scientific revolutuion. Or you might prefer to use kuhnian vocabulary of 'paradigm shift', or Bachelard 'epistemological break'. In fact only a new generation of young scholars was able to appprecite the scope of the ideas originally developed by C., and to pursue his basic insights into a rich mesh of new contributions.
Wiki-correctness must not be a pretext to accept a mellow and uncharacteristic representation of what is work of originality and depth that radically changed a whole field of research and became a 'de facto' approach against which all competeting or dissenting opinion continually have to measure up.
~~pete
I've set up a sandbox for a "Criticisms of Noam Chomsky" article. To start with, I've just copied the text and external links from the main article. If nobody objects, I'd like to add the article to Wikipedia and delete the corresponding sections from the main article. Russil Wvong 18:01, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
This section appears to have grotesque POV problems. Chomsky's teach-in remark about the French press covering a cough is a caricature, but it's not nearly treated as such. The comment appears is an exchange called "anti-intellectualism" in which Chomsky is deprecating the intellectual elevation granted to the academy, and he uses France (he remarks that the comparison is generally valid in Europe) to make a contrast and pushes it further by turning the "French intellectual community" into a caricature of itself (although it would probably be valid to say that Sartre, the example he then names, was often that very caricature). French writers (were in any case making these remarks long before Chomsky. There isn't the slightest attempt to note that Chomsky's own experience of the French press in connection with intellectuals was largely formed by the Faurisson affair, which does put a lot more of his skin in the game than the article lets on. The whole treatment seems to accumulate a massive irony: Chomsky trying to lecture Voltaire to a French historian telling him that there's no argument about free speech, only about Chomsky's going beyond a defence of its exercise to statements taken to be an apologia for an antisemite revisionist, forgetting to mention the historical significance of a French intellectual accusing the French state of antisemitism and failing to mention the French philosophers (even the one he liked) remarking that this model of intellectual was already in the grave, even when there was one last such figure still walking around Paris.
As for the remarks about Derrida, let's recall the kind of caveats Chomsky has attached to discussion of Derrida: "Let me begin by saying that I dislike making the kind of comments that follow without providing evidence, but I doubt that participants want a close analysis of de Saussure, say, in this forum, and I know that I'm not going to undertake it. I wouldn't say this if I hadn't been explicitly asked for my opinion --- and if asked to back it up, I'm going to respond that I don't think it merits the time to do so." So: no evidence, and if pressed, I'll drop the matter for lack of interest. This isn't exactly Chomsky staking any of his credibility on the anything that follows. This doesn't seem to rise above the level of criticism one was likely to find on the pages of Lingua Franca, yet no attention is given to this seeming inattention. This would appear to elevate Chomsky on this matter to the level of authority he finds so upsetting in the French, which would appear rather more a matter of sycophancy than fidelity.
In short: this section would appear badly in need of a rewrite. Buffyg 23:48, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Just for the record, I wrote the section on Chomsky and the French and I am definitely a fan of Chomsky. If the section comes across as negatively biased I certainly did not intend it to be so. I think Chomsky's point of view on this matter is intelligent and noble, as it relates to his belief that the intellectual should be accessible and open to the common man. H.R.
I've got no problems with the section on the French, and i've read more than my share of Derrida, Althusser, Foucault, et al. FWIW -- i largely agree with Chomsky's opinions, and i think he did a respectable job of voicing his ideas in a casual, unembittered way. Klipklop
I think the "France" section should be fused with the bit about his opinion on postmodernism, it's the same issue. The fact the godfathers are from France is immaterial. Chomsky's own leftist critiques are significantly grounded by rationalist principles and set him apart from the mainstay of academic scientolog-, I mean, postmodernists. --Urb
It is absurd that this section has been flagged for neutraility issues. These *are* Chomsky's views on French intellectuals. That a reader does not like these views doesn't make them any less Chomsky's views. Indeed, Chomsky's views are even stronger. He has written:
"So take Derrida, one of the grand old men. I thought I ought to at least be able to understand his Grammatology, so tried to read it. I could make out some of it, for example, the critical analysis of classical texts that I knew very well and had written about years before. I found the scholarship appalling, based on pathetic misreading; and the argument, such as it was, failed to come close to the kinds of standards I've been familiar with since virtually childhood."
And:
"Some of the people in these cults (which is what they look like to me) I've met: Foucault (we even have a several-hour discussion, which is in print, and spent quite a few hours in very pleasant conversation, on real issues, and using language that was perfectly comprehensible --- he speaking French, me English); Lacan (who I met several times and considered an amusing and perfectly self-conscious charlatan, though his earlier work, pre-cult, was sensible and I've discussed it in print); Kristeva (who I met only briefly during the period when she was a fervent Maoist); and others. Many of them I haven't met, because I am very remote from from these circles, by choice, preferring quite different and far broader ones --- the kinds where I give talks, have interviews, take part in activities, write dozens of long letters every week, etc. I've dipped into what they write out of curiosity, but not very far, for reasons already mentioned: what I find is extremely pretentious, but on examination, a lot of it is simply illiterate, based on extraordinary misreading of texts that I know well (sometimes, that I have written), argument that is appalling in its casual lack of elementary self-criticism, lots of statements that are trivial (though dressed up in complicated verbiage) or false; and a good deal of plain gibberish."
And:
"As to 'posturing,' a lot of it is that, in my opinion, though I don't particularly blame Foucault for it: it's such a deeply rooted part of the corrupt intellectual culture of Paris that he fell into it pretty naturally, though to his credit, he distanced himself from it. As for the 'corruption' of this culture particularly since World War II, that's another topic, which I've discussed elsewhere...."
Additionally, a few years ago, after a talk at he gave at MIT, I asked Chomsky about Foucault. He was basically dismissive, and went on to say something to the effect of, "I don't really read anything that comes out of Paris."
In sum, Chomsky's views on postmodernism and French intellectuals and French intellectual culture is accurately represented in this section, and there should be no neutrality flag appended to it. Simply because one does not like Chomsky's views on this topic, or does not think Chomsky's views are based on methodology appropriate to the task of arrriving at such views (an ironic objection, n'est-ce pas?), does not mean that they are not Chomsky's views.
Buffyg, you ought to allow Chomsky his views and stop trying to suppress them simply because you perceive them to be tarnishing your idols.
DM 9/28/05
I'll try again.
The fact that one does not like the fact that Chomsky regards Parisian intellectual culture as corrupt and many of the leading lights of postmodernism as frauds does not make Chomsky's views *not* Chomsky's views. The fact that Chomsky issues weak qualifiers and sarcastic caveats before dismissing work whose value one might see differently does not attentuate Chomsky's opinions as opinions .
Again, one may not like his opinions, or like how he arrived at his opinions, but they *are* Chomsky's opinions and should be recognized as such.
If a reader would like to debate Chomsky's views and the methodology by which Chomsky arrived at them, perhaps he should call Chomsky's office and see if he's available, or set up a new page on Wikipedia entitled, "Why I Disagree with Chomsky's Views on French Intellectuals". I'm sure such a page would make for reading that would be, if nothing else, lengthy.
If all of this is beyond a reader's understanding, or frustrating, or both, well...perhaps some policing action on other pages whose subjects take a dim view of the French intellectual scene and postmodernism's leading lights would be a satisfying outlet.
DM 10/3/05
Listen, I saw Chomsky's discussion on this topic in two books, Understanding Power, and Anarchism and I have seen him express the same opinion on the matter elsewhere. The article I wrote uses direct quotation from Chomsky's talks, this discussion of POV problems is absurd. If there are any recorded statements from Chomsky that contradict the one I have cited please incorporate them into the article and get rid of the flag please. HW 10/3/05
HW, you are right on. Buffyg, please direct your attention to my above entry. Perhaps a little more reading and a little less writing will help you understand.
DM 10/04/05
Buffyg, two things (read before you write, please!). 1) Reread my 10/03 entry above. 2) Read the following, from the NPOV guidelines. I have italicized the relevant sections for your benefit:
"Probably the only grounds on which there could be an NPOV dispute over an article that actually conformed to the NPOV is when one or both of the parties to the dispute did not understand either the NPOV policy, or enough about the subject matter to realize that nothing favoring one POV had actually been said. For example, ideologues, when presented with an article that has exemplary neutrality (as per our policy), will consider the article biased precisely because it does not reflect their own bias enough. Probably, such people simply do not understand the NPOV policy.
"By linking to this page from an article, a dissenter can register his or her concern without unduly upsetting the author(s) or maintainer(s) of the article, and without starting a flame war. Others would maintain, however, that linking to this page only postpones the dispute. This might be a good thing, though, if a "cooling off" period seems required.
"Everyone can agree that marking an article as having an NPOV dispute is a temporary measure, and should be followed up by actual contributions to the article in order to put it in such a state that people agree that it is neutral."
So, if Chomsky takes a dim view of your idols, why don't you make your edits instead of indulging your logorhea on this page? Or, if you would like to indulge your hollow logorhea, why don't you set up a link to another page in which you discuss all the reasons why Chomsky's views on this matter don't conform to your own.
I realize that it's reasonable to assume that you've flagged this article because you do "not understand either the NPOV policy, or enough about the subject matter to realize that nothing favoring one POV had actually been said"; after all, you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "temporary", which is far less complex than the NPOV policy. In any case, a quick trip to a dictionary ought to bring you up to speed on the meaning of the word "temporary" (unless you're too far down the signifying chain to accept standard definitions?), which, once understood, should persuade you to follow my advice and remove the flag (assuming you want to play by the rules of the community).
Then, as I've said above, you can go on to other policing actions-- perhaps you'll go so far in your sanitizing efforts that a comfortable online fantasy world will exist for you in which no one has ever actually said anything bad about your heroes.
DM 10/5/05
Buffyg, five items:
1) Why do you assume I am male? Are you making assumptions based on language use? Should you be making these assumptions? (I hope you're not priveleging!)
2) I see your hero-worship extends to the Habermas page. You did a fine job making the last two paragraphs of the Habermas article focus more on Derrida than on Habermas (or, at best, focus only on Habermas qua Derrida interlocutor). Perhaps you'll eventually make all of the pages on Wikipedia have Derrida at their center! (What do you suppose Derrida thought about the red/green binarism of the flag of Belarus?) You certainly seem to have the time and logorhea necessary for such a task. In any case, you without question possess the skills required to help transform Wikipedia into a resource one turns to when one wants information courtesy of domineering hacks. Keep at it, mate! (Stricken as personal attacks by
Buffyg 18:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC))
3) A definition of temporary I pulled out of a dictionary, for your benefit: "Lasting, used, or enjoyed for a limited time; impermanent, transient"
4) Reread my entries from 10/3 and 10/5.
5) Remove the flag, in accordance with the community's guidelines.
DM 10/07/05
I've offered an initial edit. I believe it more thoroughly represents Chomsky's views both in their generality and in some of the specifics of the French case. I've also made an effort to show where critics (I used Žižek as exemplary) find Chomsky's views on these matters to be fundamentally weak or insufficient (which I think goes a long way to providing NPOV). I don't offer it as a perfect edit; some of the language isn't as smooth as it could be. Please feel free to make improvements. Buffyg 23:46, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
For my part I do not think it thoroughly represents Chomsky's views, aspects of which are, at best, only implicitly represented in the selection from the interview in "Understanding Power" being used as an example. I think that in order to further understand Chomsky on this matter one should recognize that he has long had a comprehensive engagement with methodological issues in the sciences and he has written much about them in the areas of linguistics and related philosophies of mind. What has he written about it, Mr. Zizek? It is interesting to note that Zizek's descriptions of Chomsky's "anti-theoretical" bias are not based upon careful or comprehensive textual evidence. Zizek admits that his view of Chomsky's position is an interpretation that comes second-hand from a friend who had lunch with Chomsky. (Zizek, a smart man, but always something of a windbag, is famous for this type of chattiness.) In reality, Chomsky is not anti-theory per se, instead he is more accurately described as a minimalist who advocates critical, non-speculative theory when it is appropriately grounded. Lacking deeply grounded theories in social affairs, he believes it better to proceed pragmatically, with moral principles and the relevant truisms to guide us, rather than engage in speculation that so often lends itself to befuddling, sometimes destructive, illusory constructs. Chomsky's so-called linguistic revolution was itself a methodological paradigm shift based upon theoretical constructs as much as anything else. So why is Chomsky underwhelmed (and often confounded) by the theoeretical constructs of post-modernists concerning ideology, or by neoclassical economics concerning marginal utility, or freudian psychology concerning the "subconscious", and many other realms of the social sciences? I think it is because his test of a social theory employs a similar methodological criteria as he would employ in relation to the natural sciences, in particular the desiderata of precision, richness and non-trivial explanatory power; and in looking from that perspective he finds most theory outside of them lacking in comparison...."outside of physics and mathematics and now maybe biology and a few things in other fields, there really hasn't been any work that one would call intellectually deep. We don't know whether it is because of, as you suggest, historical conditions, or because of something intrinsic between the problems and the nature of the human mind. Maybe we can understand just that kind of problem and not some other kind of problem." (Language and Politics, 95)...Is there a theory of ideology that coheres with the best of what we know from the natural sciences and about human nature that contains a non-trivial account of how the elements of ideology emerge and evolve? Finally, I would like to ask whether the work of Derrida, Foucault,or Zizek have had an appreciable impact on activists? Or this a case where "theory" is a closed shop, forever beyond the comprehension of the unwashed masses, and a leninist class of derridean sheperds is required to herd them towards the "communist" utopia? [user:darwin76]
It's incorrect because unstressed vowels are reduced. See Russian Alphabet
I wonder whether it is appropriate to include the picture of Chomsky meeting Castro. By including the picture, the article may suggest that Chomsky has a special liking for Castro by suggesting a personal connection. Chomsky has stated in his open letter to the Guardian that the picture was taken during an annual meeting for an international society of Latin American scholars. The meeting was held in Havana and Chomsky only met with Castro as part of a group (see http://www.chomsky.info/letters/20051113.htm). - PJ
I have removed the image of Chomsky with Castro under the "Views on Socialism" section as I think it is an attempt to play on standard anti-socialist propaganda in the US and and associate Chomsky with a non-capitalist leader who is hated in the Western world. Yes the image is real, but it is deceiving. Chomsky has commented on the images use (not in wikipedia, but he might as well have been):
Turn to the Castro picture. In this case the picture, though clipped, is real. As the editors surely know, at least if those who located the picture did 2 minutes of research, the others in the picture (apart from my wife) were, like me, participants in the annual meeting of an international society of Latin American scholars, with a few others from abroad. This annual meeting happened to be in Havana. Like all others, I was in a group that met with Castro. End of second story. [14]
What does this image have anything to do with his views on socialism? Nothing! This is an encyclopedia, and as stated previously, this image serves only to bias the reader. Chomsky does not "believe" Cuba has a better human rights record than Israel, but simply states this fact. Even if you absurd pro-Isreali, anti-Cuban rant is true (which it isn't) this still is no arguement to include the image. If you would like to display this image then put it somewhere appropiate. For that matter, none of these images of Chomsky are relavent to article. At best they are neutral and make the page look fancier, and at worst bias the reader in a negative fashion.
Delete Castro Silliness Now
TDC I read the discussion above and you have not justified the use of this photo whereas your interlocutors make persuasive arguments against using it. Its only purpose is to project POV that is not supported in reality. As everyone noted this is just not an appropriate photo for this article. Your only response is some sort of nonsense about the meaning of Chomsky's grimace. If you want to make a section about Chomsky's views on Cuba this photo might have some relevance but its only purpose here is to make a bizarre guilt-by-association argument.- csloat 05:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
This picture is excellent, stop trying to censor it. What do you mean by guilt-by-association, i.e. what is Castro guilty of? Unlike Chomsky, you seem to be affected by American anti-Castro propaganda. Here's Chomsky having some fun with the comparisons: "The Globe also ran a front-page think-piece on 11 November. In its first paragraph we learn that Arafat was "one of the iconic group of charismatic, authoritarian leaders -- from Mao Zedong in China to Fidel Castro in Cuba to Saddam Hussein in Iraq -- who arose from anti-colonial movements that swept the globe following World War II." The statement is interesting from several points of view. The linkage reveals, once again, the obligatory visceral hatred of Castro. There have been shifting pretexts as circumstances changed, but no information to question the conclusions of US intelligence in the early days of Washington's terrorist attacks and economic warfare against Cuba: the basic problem is his "successful defiance" of US policies going back to the Monroe Doctrine. But there is an element of truth in the portrayal of Arafat in the Globe think-piece, as there would have been in a front-page report during the imperial ceremonies for the semi-divine Reagan, describing him as one of the iconic group of mass murderers -- from Hitler to Idi Amin to Peres -- who slaughtered with abandon and with strong support from media and intellectuals. Those who do not comprehend the analogy have some history to learn." [15] Tcsh
Personally, I don't care whether the picture is in or out, as long as it's under an appropriate heading. As it is, the picture can not be said to be under an appropriate heading. It has nothing to do with Chomsky the Libertarian Socialist; and quite little to do with Chomsky the Scholar, for that matter. If someone wish to make a new heading titled "Famous People Chomsky Has Met" or something like that, then I think it would be OK in principle to keep the picture. However, given the forum (i.e. encyclopedia) I don't think that such a heading can be justified, since it would be too trivial. -PJ
There isn't a single link to any external sources which are critical of Chomsky. Could it be that Chomsky supporters fear any scrutiny of the professor?
DrZin 05:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
"Criticism of intellectual communities"
you know i hate to say it, but this section is incredibly unclear in parts. needs a rewrite for clarity. good god, it discusses how chomsky values straightforward language and fails to make sense itself
"Criticism of Mass Media"
I don't know how all the criticism on Chomsky's critique of mass media bias got in the section on Media Bias, but with the numerous references to a "Criticism of Chomsky" it's rather unneccesary to put it in the main page. It comes off as thought someone really wanted to get their criticism in the main page, regardless of the NPOV. Perhaps it would be better served being put in the "Criticism" page. In comparsion, the part about BF Skinner's book and the criticism of Chomsky's review is very well done. Make fixing that section an objective?
Thank you for presenting a well-balanced, warts-and-all portrayal of this "controversial" American figure. Most of the left-leaning pages on Wikipedia are full of self-congratulatory and uncritical assertions -- yours isn't. Thank you for presenting a balanced and encyclopedic entry. Morton devonshire 20:13, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
Why is there so much material on how to pronounce his name? It seems utterly pointless and the jargon employed to do so is meaningless to 99% of well educated people.
- A random Harvard student...
I'm going to delete the word "controversial" from the first sentence. Albert Einstein wrote socialist "peacenik" tracts which enflammed the sensibilities of some americans, yet his wiki article does not immediately slander him as "controversial" in its very first line. Obviously, some things-- both scientific and political-- have generated "controversy." But it seems inappropriate to use that word in the very first sentence of the wiki; it's extremely UNINFORMATIVE, essentially sensational, and seems intended to immediately discredit Chomsky as an entity upon whom the "jury" is "still out". It seems to cast immediate doubt on the man as somebody who can provide insights about the world like anybody else, and in fact has a great ability to do so. Practically any historical or contemporary figure could be described as "controversial"; it would seem that the only requirement is that somebody, somewhere, complains about them. But the truth is, the term "controversial" is totally uninformative, and if anything, misleading in the sentiment that it usually arises. If Chomsky has generated so-called "controversy", great--- let's let the facts speak for themselves throughout the rest of the article, which is what it's there for. Would anybody add "controversial" to the first line of George Bush's wiki? Or to Aristotle's? It strikes me as a silly idea, for any wiki. If there's so-called "controversy", then write about the specifics of it in the body of the article under a specific subheading.
Now, about the "grassroots" issue that you people are talking about: obviously, it depends on what you mean by "grassroots." however, if something can potentially be demonstrated, then it's not "factually incorrect" to simply declare it. If anything, it's merely unproven or unsubstantiated. So you're out of line. Anyway, more importantly, there are endless examples to show that what you said is inaccurate. The viet cong, among other communist movements, were armed and supported by soviet resources and technology, but functioned as its own command hierarchy. If you'd been in Vietnam, I think you would have realized this. Ho Chi Minh and the military forces were never under soviet nor sino "control" any more than churchill was under roosevelt's, or any more than osama bin laden and his marauders were under CIA/US-military control during the Afghan/Soviet war. It's even more true for the khmer rouge in cambodia. pol pot's regime was completely un-soviet in style; they did not need soviet nor sino control to cause the destruction and death that they did. these facts will clash with your ideas about the world, because you're clueless about history. These marxist/maoist movements never needed the soviets or the chinese to control them or to maintain. That's what they are: sustained movements that take over a country. Moreover, very illustratively, you seemed so eager to make your unsubstantiated, sensational claim, that you vaguely said "no major group" was independent from soviet/sino control. Obviously, there were hundreds of "major groups" (vague) that had nothing to do with the soviets, for example, the united states of america, which is a "major group" if there ever was one. Additionally, the soviet union no longer exists-- I'm sure you noticed this-- but several communist powers still do. You limited your comment to "during the cold war", but reality refutes the loosely-strung implications of your statements. "...or not heavily influenced by them" is clearly a weak and foolish thing to say, considering the political polarization of the world during the cold war, and that polarization doesn't mean that "grassroots" movements can't arise or didn't exist.
Your wild, sloppy remarks have contributed nothing to this discussion. At this point I hope we can agree on one thing: it's not productive to argue about how realistic the qualification "grassroots" is if we haven't even defined it. And your terms ("grassroots movements are by definition not influenced by [anything?]") aren't going to cut it. Feel free to keep trying. When you get a clue, then we can have a discussion about how careless Chomsky may or may not have been at various points when talking about the [insert an agrarian communist movement].
Trey and TDC are making some edits that I feel are mostly destructive and have been forced to revert. If they want to put forward some arguments for such edits, they can do it here. Until I see some justifications, I'll have to just revert them. — Chameleon 12:39, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Naturally you would feel these edits are destructive as they tarnish Chomsky's halo. I might also add tat this article is the one of the worst examples of creep around. As soon as it becomes balanced and well written, it slowly devolves into love fest for the topic.
At any rate, back to the matter at hand.
Stating that marxist/maoist movements in Asia were "grassroots" is factually incorrect. No major group during the cold war was either independent from Soviet/Sino control or not heavily influenced by them. To simply call these grassroots, is factually incorrect, unless you can demonstrate otherwise.
Providing a biased description of the Hoover Institute on this page is nothing more than a subtle attempt to smear it. This article is about Chomsky and to a lesser extent what others have had to say about his works and opinions. This article is not the place to preoperatively label people who have had things to say about him. Descriptions of the organization and individuals belong on their separate Wikipedia entries, not here. TDC 17:46, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
from the interview in the Chomsky Reader published in 1987. p.26-27
"Take the Vietnam War. It was clear by the end of the sixties that the United States had achieved its primary objectives. It had effectively destroyed the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam and the Pathet Lao in Laos, ensuring, as I wrote at the time, that only the harshest and most authoritarian elements in Indochina would survive, if any would. This was a major victory for U.S. aggression. Principled opponents of the U.S. war were therefore in the position of, in effect, helping to defend the only surviving resistance in Vietnam, which happened to be highly authoritarian state-socialist groups. Now I don't think that was a reason for not opposing the American War in Vietnam, but I think it's a reason why many anarchists could not throw themselves into the struggle with the energy and sympathy that they might have. Some did, but others were reluctant because they were highly critical of the regime that was going to emerge, as I was. Within peace movement groups, I tried to dissociate opposition to the American war from suppport for state socialism in Vietnam, as many will recall. But it was no easy task to undertake serious opposition to imperial aggression, with the very real personal costs that this entailed, on such a basis. This was easy enough for bystanders who were satisfied to cluck their tongues in dismay, but it was quite a different matter for those- primarily young- people who were really trying to do something to end these atrocities. In fact, the American movement tended to become quite pro-North Vietnamese, segments of it, at least. They felt that they were not simply opposing the American war, but they were defending the North Vietnamese vision of a future society.
Next something to consider from radical historian Carolyn Eisenberg, who you should be familiar with from the criticism section : "To take the case of Vietnam. It took the antiwar movement years to drive home the point that the NLF was an indigenous movement, and that rather than being a Soviet creation, the NLF was, if anything. struggling to get Russian aid." (Radical History Review, 1989). (Note: I do realize that indigenous is not synonymous with "grassroots", nevetheless take it for what it says, the NLF was not anyone's puppet."
Finally from Gabriel Kolko, who Chomsky has cited for amny years on Vietnam, an excerpt from his classic history, "Anatomy of a War.":
"The (NLF) Party always understood the crucial role of local initiative and mass participation, particularly as the increasing demands of security reduced the higher level’s quick access to grass-roots organizations, and adaptively strove to overcome any elitist, passive tendencies which existed, all the while defining a broad, common framework for action. The Peasants liberation Association was the largest of the NLF mass groups, and in many older revolutionary areas it was the real local administration. By mid-1965, according to the CIA, the various liberation associations had roughly half a million members. Other U.S. estimates for a later period showed that anywhere from one-half to three-quarters of the rural society in the NLF-controlled regions participated in the many facets of the local administration’s work – compared with one-fifth in "contested" areas and with less in solid RVN regions. The local Party branches, too, were instructed to assume as many key responsibilities and possible and to operate autonomously of the higher Party on local administrative questions. This made local Revolutionary government far move responsible to the masses than was the typically bureaucratic RVN system, as well as capable of surviving on local resources for military and for other functions." Anatomy of a War- Chapter 10 [user: BernardL]
Your argument that Chomsky support grassroots aspects of SE Asian Marxist/Maoist movements while simultaneously criticizing the authoritarian nature of such movements might be convincing had he done the latter. During the timeframe of the conflict, late 1960’s and early 1970’s Chomsky was silent on any authoritarian or totalitarian bent in these organizations or regimes. And once again, there are no specific “grassroots aspects” of theses movements spelled out in the article.
There are hundreds of adjectives that could be used to describe the Hoover Institute, describing them as “corporate funded” is not only POV, but is also inaccurate. The list of donors to the Hoover Institute clearly shows them to be foundations, not corporations. I realize that you may not see a difference between the two, but anyone familiar with the causes and organizations supported by the Ford Foundation can see that they are most likely not in line with the interests of the Ford Motors. At its core the Hoover Institute is a libertarian think tank, and if it to be described with any adjectives at all in the article this would be the most appropriate. TDC 15:14, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Something appeared in FBIS in 1970, purporting to be a transcript of a speech of mine over radio Hanoi. I never gave any speech over radio Hanoi, or anywhere. It's possible that informal remarks were picked up of mine, or someone, at a meeting of some sort after Doug Dowd, Dick Fernandez and I spent a day travelling through parts of the bombed out countryside and some villages in the neighborhood of Hanoi, a pretty shattering experience. Can't say any more than that. My own report was in the NY Review a few weeks later, reprinted in At War with Asia. This particular item has been circulating for about 30 years, at least.
One of my opponents, a Chomsky defender & self-described "anarchist" of the anti-capitalist variety, Dan Clore, immediately denied that Chomsky had ever made any such speech, & called David Horowitz a "notorious liar". He also accused Horowitz of using a fabricated quote from the socialist historian Ronald Radosh about Chomsky's alleged policy of keeping quiet about the negative aspects of North Vietnam that Chomsky had seen on his tour of the country. Unfortunately, Collier & Horowitz didn't indicate what their source for Chomsky's Hanoi speech was, so I kept looking. I found the primary source in the book "POLITICAL PILGRIMS: Western Intellectuals in Search of the Good Society", by Paul Hollander. Then, with the irreplaceable help of Stephen Denney, an archivist with the UC Berkeley Indochina Center, I was able to obtain a transcript of the entire speech, which I have provided above. [2] J. Parker Stone 20:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
the improbable claim that Chomsky, a life-long anarchist, would support a particular authoritarian organisation or leader. Nothing approaching proof has ever been given.
I know, I know, the picture means nothing. He was just there to ...... um ....... argue .... his ..... displeasure with the US embargo. TDC 21:32, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
Seriously what do I have to do, find a picture of Chomsky tossing Fidel Castro's salad? I mean come one people, he looks like he is going to felate the left's favorite thug for Christ's sake! TDC 02:18, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
...Chomsky is not a policymaker worried about an Islamic takeover in Iraq. i think there's a little bit of a difference J. Parker Stone 22:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
seriously, i get the impression that nothing short of a makeout session with Castro or Ortega would convince you guys of where Chomsky's sympathies lie J. Parker Stone 22:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
yes it does. policymakers have to deal with unpalatable regimes based on strategic interests. ordinary citizens do not.
yeah, just so happened to bump into him. and policymakers can't really engage in foreign affairs without at times dealing with shady regimes. J. Parker Stone 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
well, Chomsky is vague here, but he clearly seems to be favoring the Castro govt. over the U.S. (Cubans "decide for themselves" despite being repressed by the state apparatus) J. Parker Stone 22:38, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
right, supporting the Castro govt. J. Parker Stone 23:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
are we going to get rid of the flag or not?
If you follow the webpage Trey links to above, it clearly states that the speech was first published in a journal of the FBIS, that is, the Foreign Broadcast Information Service [FBIS] of the CIA. The publication was therefore made at a time of war by the intelligence/counterintelligence arm of one of the belligerents. Just weeks later, Chomsky set out a piece under his own byline describing his time there, which was quite markedly different from the piece published by the CIA. These are just some of the many reasons to doubt the accuracy of the piece. DanKeshet 21:26, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
This also brings up another interesting point. What Chomsky says on and off the record is quite telling. I will point you to the letter he wrote to Alexander Cockburn regarding Vaclav Havel, among other things [5]
I'd like to point out that we are writing an encyclopedia article about Noam Chomsky, not an authoritative biography. Seeing as we are not excerpting quotations from every speech he has ever given, I don't think it unreasonable to restrict ourselves to speeches and writings which are undoubtedly authentic, which I think will provide plenty of fodder for critics and admirers alike. The quote is being used to summarize Chomsky's views on Communism in Vietnam -- if it's authenticity is dubious, it can hardly serve to do that, disclaimer or no. RadicalSubversiv E 22:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Chameleon, please stop RVing the changes. Nothing has been "shown" to be a fabrication. J. Parker Stone 22:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Check out the Virtual Vietnam Archive at Texas Tech. I found in the Douglas Pike collection of documents something which I've copied the OCR'ed text to here: User:DanKeshet/Chomsky in Vietnam. I haven't cleaned it up much, but the original .PDF is available at that site. Citation: Peace Offensive, 14 April 1970, Folder 06, Box 08, Douglas Pike Collection: Unit 03 - Antiwar Activities, The Vietnam Archive, Texas Tech University. DanKeshet 22:49, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
A speech purported to be given by Noam Chomsky in 1970 while he was in Hanoi is now in question and some editors are attempting to remove it.
The following reasons are given for its being deemed a fake and for removed (these appear to be the major ones).
My responses to the above.
The logic and reasons given for the removal of the speech are entirely unverifiable and conjecture. These reasons hardly warrant the removal of relevant material whose inclusion was decided upon long ago. TDC 11:31, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)
Trey, the only editors who have claimed to know anything about the speech's authenticity with certainty are you and TDC. Everyone else is of the opinion that since Chomsky denies its authenticity, it should not be used until it can be verified more authoritatively than by a right-wing website. RadicalSubversiv E 20:00, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I wish to make a few points, at present limited to the "speech" itself, since this was posted in the requests for comment section:
This link gives Starr's response to criticism of the authenticity, in which a quote of Chomsky's is mentioned:
I remember well at the time that this was originally published that Chomsky did not deny that it was authentic, in response to a question by Dan Clore, a fan of his. If the "Flag Blackened" link was the source of the remark, it has now disappeared. In any case, there seems now to be a different response altogether, as posted by DanKeshet. The date of this post should be given here, if someone would be so kind. It consists mainly of polemical and ad hominem attacks on US policy and those who mention this speech, respectively. However, there is a substantive claim:
Which is to say, Chomsky does not at all deny that the words are authentic, or that they were broadcast, but denies formally making a speech for Hanoi Radio. It is worth mentioning here that though Starr, in his editorial content, characterized it as a "speech", the quoted passage reads as follows:
- Noam Chomsky, originally delivered on April 13, 1970 in Hanoi while he was visiting North Vietnam with a group of anti-war activists. Broadcast by Radio Hanoi on April 14, and published in the _Asia-Pacific Daily Report_ of the U.S. government's Foreign Broadcast Information Service, April 16, 1970, pages K2-K3.
That these comments were "broadcast" has not been denied, and he has repeatedly admitted that he said similar things in an "informal" context as well as that the words are similar to passages he wrote at the time. As for where they came from, it seems that others have suggested the event mentioned here as a source. The transcript is dated as April 14, 1970, with Chomsky's broadcasted remarks being on the day before. This is not a discrepancy, as they refer to two separate broadcasts, not the broadcast of a single event; therefore this is likely the to be the origination of the comments. There is one odd thing in reading the former however (which is difficult in the unclean presented format); it is this:
As Premier Pham Van Dong has said in his message to the American people on October 14, 1970
The transcript is dated as April 14, 1970 but it refers to an event which would not have taken place for months to come. I am not familiar with whether this remark actually took place in April (and is thus an error) or not. This, however, reflects merely on the authenticity of the transcript concerning the event, not the remarks as given by Tim Starr. If someone would also provide a direct link to this it might clear things up but this source seems odd in the date discrepancy.
The so-called speech therefore seems prudent to mention in a careful context--which is to say that specific allegations were launched against Chomsky by Tim Starr, David Horowitz, and Peter Collier (and probably Paul Hollander, if someone would get that book) about a speech given in North Vietnam, that the comments were published by the FBIS as being broadcast on Hanoi Radio, that Chomsky has himself denied that he had given a speech, but does not deny that such remarks may have been recorded, and believes the remarks could possibly be accurate as presented. How they are interpreted is a different matter, though it is difficult to portray them as innocently as many here would like to. -- TJive June 28, 2005 16:54 (UTC)
According to the Washington Research Library Consortium, the Asia-Pacific Daily Report began in 1974. Of course the WRLC could be wrong. If anyone lives near Georgetown, you could run down and ask them. Frankly, I don't give enough of a shit to bother doing it. Perhaps the people advancing the claim do. Descendall 17:48, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
First off, I think it's rather reckless to make a major change to an article that's being actively fought over, removing several important pieces of information, and only offer a one-word edit summary as explanation. That's just a recipe for an edit war.
Secondly, although I'd like to hear his reasoning, I think Sam's changes are inappropriate:
RadicalSubversiv E 06:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
My edits have better flow. Sam Spade 03:25, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
What factual information was removed? Have you compared the two versions yet? Sam Spade 12:53, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I separated the two paragraphs by subject matter. The info a bout his political affiliation... his political affiliations are too weird for the intro, better they be discussed at length later on. As far as what people know him better for, I thought that was an obvious fact, but if not, that can be removed. Sam Spade 16:09, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I mean his ideas are so nutty I doubt many of his fans have a clue what he is talking about... sometimes I wonder if he does! As far as what he's known for thats so obvious I see no need to debate it. He's popular because he's anti-globalist and anti-american, and those are popuar ideas at the moment. His contribution to linguistics seems to be overrated, but we would be remiss not to give it comparable reviews to what can be found elsewhere. [8]. I'll ask my friend who is a linguist, and see what he thinks. Sam Spade 16:20, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, apparently I was wrong, my friend told me that Chomsky's influence in linguistics can't be overstated, particularly given the newness of the field. To be honest I was just assuming his contributions had been exaggerated, since I have heard precious little about his linguistics, and so much about his politics. Whichever, live and learn. Sam Spade 00:09, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
A quote clarifying Chomsky's description of his politics from the essay "Goals and Visions" in Powers and Prospects/Perspectives on Power - an essay I cannot recommend highly enough for those interested in the values that guide his analyis:
1. The given quote is misleading because it does not allow for any description of what an "ethnic homeland" is and how in some form Chomsky has always advocated it. What most would interpret this to mean is that he has always believed Israel to have a legitimate right to exist as it stood, when in fact he has always advocated not only the resettling of Palestinian refugees and their ancestors in Israel (which effects the demographics of the country) but for at least a time believed the whole of Palestine should be one bi-national state, obviously with a majority of Arabs and Palestinians. This could technically be an "ethnic homeland" for the fact that there are Jews and Jewish refugees allowed to live there, but it has never been a predominant position of Zionism at any point that he believed in it since it negates the possibility of any Jewish majority. The issue is thus more complicated than is necessary to expound upon in this section, and so there is no reason to mention the quote in any case; his view of Zionism has already been given.
2. The second hand verbs and digressing style make it so that the article takes a position on the meaning of terrorism and that the Afghan war is an example of it. There are multiple definitions of terrorism even among the agencies of the US government, and needless to say there is not only one possible view as to the Afghan war.
3. Example of Chomsky rationalizing a situations where terrorism is involved. The sentence after however causes the body not only to be redundant but it indirectly allows for his position on the Khmer Rouge and 9/11 to be presented as the only possible one, whereas the article goes on to mention how others have interpreted his remarks on both as uncritical, insufficiently or insincerely so, or relativizing and even rationalizing the acts. -- TJive June 28, 2005 17:50 (UTC)
4. Again, taking out the POV here, others attribute different motives to him. "Official enemy" is even a common term of Chomsky's.
Hold on, here we have one account that looks rather sockpuppetish, and one anonymous user. Can you both please sign on to your usual accounts if you have them? Things would be clearer then. Thanks. — Chameleon 28 June 2005 18:37 (UTC)
See just now it happened again (though I suppose it's possible you did it on purpose. This text was deleted (see here):
Looking back through the edits it also appears that this happened during a revert of Chameleon's, which probably didn't help matters. -- TJive June 28, 2005 23:40 (UTC)
I've just removed a subsection called "Sudan," (in the section of "Criticisms of Chomsky's political views") because it is not a criticism of his views, it is just a criticism of him for having made a simple error in a telephone interview with Salon.com.
It appears that one of the central objectives of this article is to make sure to include "uncomfortable facts." It seems like this is an order to dig up dirt on Chomsky and include potentially embarrassing details that do not have much to do with Chomsky's views. Please help me understand the reasons for us doing this. It seems that the second stated objective of including "uncomfortable facts" contradicts the first objective of keeping the article in tune with wikipedia's NPOV standards. NietzscheFan
Hi, this is the formerly anonymous user, now signed in as NietzscheFan. Pay attention to the fact that the criticism section is called "Criticisms of political views." So, what constitutes a political view? If you were to include a section that says that Chomsky says that the US government is incredibly protectionist, and a refutation or a link to a refutation of this claim that Chomsky espouses in print, that would be appropriate. It is inappropriate, however, to include a section that simply criticizes Chomsky for his memory having failed him. You can only criticize him for his views that he has openly esposed (that means he has to have written about it). Furthermore, even if Chomsky had mistakenly cited Human Rights Watch as having said what number of people were killed as a result of the bombing in print, it would still be inapropriate to criticize him for that here because you would be criticizing him for having made a simple citation error. If you were to criticize Chomsky for being a libertarian-socialist, that would be an applicable criticsm (for this section, "Criticisms of political views").
In fact, the only thing you should be able to criticize Chomsky for is his being a libertarian-socialist (anarchist), because those are his political views.
Now, if you would like to have an section of embarassing blunders, you could try to make one. It would be torn down immediatly, though, because the idea of a section that criticizes Chomsky for his simple citation errors is absurd. Its analogus to having a section on some well known political figure and having a section devoted to how bad his or her math scores in high school were just for the sake of refraining from suppresing "uncomfortable facts." NietzscheFan 30 June 2005 05:51 (UTC)
Also: Yes, you're right Tjive, I am attacking your motives [alright, sorry, I am attacking the motives of the person(s) who decided to include the "Sudan" section. NietzscheFan 30 June 2005 23:09 (UTC)] because I don't understand why it is necessary to include these embarrasing facts. I'm sure you would attack my motives if I were to go to your user page and add "uncomfortable facts" about all the times you've made a mistake. [note text by User:NietzscheFan was deleted, restored by TJive; please do not delete text from the conversation]
I see. I think that objective needs to be reworded, because to someone who has not read your last response might think that what has happened here today is an allowance of "uncomfortable facts" (which could be interpreted as any irrelevant Chomsky blunder) to be "suppressed."
How about this: "Do not remove certain facts simply because they reflect badly on Noam Chomsky. (However, do not include embarrasing facts simply for the reason that they do reflect badly on Chomsky.)" NietzscheFan 30 June 2005 05:51 (UTC)
Sorry, I've added my name to all of my posts. The anon user is me, NietzscheFan. NietzscheFan
I've reworded and revised our stated goals due to the consensus.
NietzscheFan 30 June 2005 23:02 (UTC)
Apparently much of the page had become duplicated at some point, probably when edit conflicts simply caused one edit to overrule another. If there is some other material deleted by accident please correct it. -- TJive June 29, 2005 09:12 (UTC)
I removed this content concerning Hitchens.... " Christopher Hitchens, who once defended Chomsky against charges of being a Pol Pot apologist in a 1985 article titled The Chorus and the Cassandra, has since changed his mind on the subject. He believes that Chomsky and others on the far left have become so determined to decry American policies that they are willing to overlook the true nature of America's enemies."
The political vacillations of Hitchens concern his personal biography rather than this article. He is at best peripheral figure in the Cambodia-Chomsky controversy. His one popular article is not indispensible for the Chomsky defence and he has certainly has never formulated a thoroughgoing critique of Chomsky on Cambodia. Moreover no source is provided for the final two-thirds of this paragraph, which is the main reason why this content has been removed to talk. (Although, I fully recognize that he has been spotted taking posh boat cruises with Horowitz of late.)
from the wikipedia guidelines on sources...
When there is a factual dispute
Disputed statements for which a credible source has not been provided may be removed from Wikipedia articles. The disputed material should generally be moved to the article's talk page, to give an opportunity for editors to identify sources for the material. user:BernardL
This rewrite separates Chomsky's response to the criticism that generative grammar analyses are based on a small number of languages from the criticism itself, adds additional length to the article, and inserts lots of obviously POV wording (e.g. "with increasing amounts of 'wiggle room' in which apparently contradictory evidence can be unified through introduction of new assumptions."). It also has a few factual errors. G&B was never really any more a unified theory than Minimalism: it just seems that way looking back because we have a selective memory and certain papers have entered the orthodox canon over time. Kayne doesn't suggest that languages have underlying English word order, just underlying SVO word order. He absolutely doesn't suggest that all languages work underlyingly "like English". Then we have the claim that much evidence in generative grammar is "essentially anecdotal" -- true enough in a sense: any scientist reporting evidence could be said to be telling an anecdote. Falsifiability is a tricky issue. There's always wiggle room in any scientific discipline, which is why no philosophers of science believe in naive falsificationalism.
Major changes like these are supposed to be discussed in talk first, I think. Cadr 6 July 2005 11:49 (UTC)
You are right that i went rather overboard in this rewrite. however, many of the objections that inserted are things that i've heard repeatedly as a linguistics student. i've spent a fair amount of time speaking with professors about chomsky's theories, and there is huge polarization between those who love them and those who think they're unscientific [that is a charitable way of putting it]. the latter complaints often arise from typologists, computational linguists, and others outside of orthodox syntax who must nonetheless do syntactic work. there should be some way of expressing these -- criticisms are somewhat opinionated by their nature, and there is no doubt that chomsky is extremely polarizing within linguistics as well as politics.
you can certainly disagree over whether gb was more unified than minimalism; however, this is an assertion i've heard from many, including chomskyan syntax professors. there is certainly no unification within minimalism.
"anecdotal" is the wrong word but it is clear that most work in the chomskyan paradigm is based on in-depth studies of a small number of languages, most of them western european languages that have historically influenced each other closely; however, the resulting patterns are almost always claimed to be universal. all "cross-linguistic" studies i've seen are either based on one close-knit family -- invariably germanic or romance -- or on a handful of languages that appear to be chosen largely based on convenience. there is certainly nothing of the sort of explicitly cross-linguistic work, with explicit attempts to be representative across all of the world's languages, that has long been considered the norm in typology.
nb the few in-depth studies within P+P that are *not* based on western european languages often make claims widely at variance with assumed orthodoxy; cf. "the polysynthesis parameter" about mohawk.
as for kayne's theory, you are right that he does not assert "english" word order, but a recurrent theme within chomskyan linguistics is the tendency for its universal axioms to reflect the most-closely-studies languages. hence it is unlikely to be coincidental that svo word order is also that of english; similarly, that all languages are underlyingly assumed to be "configurational", like english.
as for "wiggle room", i don't know how else to express the fact that p+p theories have become increasingly abstract over time, with more and more concomitant assumptions being necessary to reconcile theory and reality. since no one agrees on which assumptions are correct, there is unquestionably more "wiggle room" for theorists to choose the most felicitous assumptions. typical chomskyan papers begin with a long list of the assumptions they are making, many of which are critical to their conclusions. an associated charge of non-falsifiability is not surprising in this context; this is obviously an opinion, not a fact, but it is an often-raised criticism.
as for "too long", this is hardly tenable. this whole article is long, but that is inevitable given chomsky's presence. chomsky is obviously more respected as a linguist and philosopher than a pundit, but 2/3 of this article is about his political activities, i.e. linguistics is under-represented.
Benwing 23:07, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
I would have to agree that linguistics is somewhat under-represented; in his 1994 book 'The Language Instinct' Steven Pinker goes to far as to say the following:
While I do not suggest the inclusion of POV to beef up sections that are otherwise under-represented, I think that additional NPOV information about Chomsky's linguistic contributions should be quite welcome. -- phreyan 3:09, 15 July 2005
I believe this is an important point. I changed it earlier, but someone reverted it. Does anyone have an objection in inserting the "swing state" fact? cihan 6 July 2005 23:56 (UTC)
I agree that so much detail about whether he supports Kerry or not might not be necessary. My problem was the statement that he supported Kerry, which was way it was phrased before I made the edit. I think the current edit uses 'tactical support' which is also fine. I just thought it is not accurate to flatly say that he supported Kerry, that's all. So, to wrap up, I am fine if that whole paragraph is taken out, but it is inaccurate to say anywhere without qualifiers that he supported Kerry. As it is now, it reads fine by me. cihan 23:33, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
To drive the point home, also include that he frequently referred to Kerry as "Bush-lite".
npov tags need *clear* discussion indicating why; otherwise they will proliferate in every controversial article.
Benwing 23:22, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
This article is on 38 page-downs. History of the world is on 8 page-downs. May I suggest Noam Chomsky to pioneer for a new type of article called Noam Chomsky (short article), Noam Chomsky (summary) or something similar; where the contents of the main article is summarized in actual article length instead of chapter ditto. -- Salleman 11:07, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
"Wikis and any public reviewing or consensus processes have to be regulated and closed to the public at large for them to work effectively over time. While the Wikipedia does have great value at the moment, it has been worked on mostly by idealists rather than vandals. But you can already see the first stages of entropy as self-serving entries begin to appear. The enormous entry on Noam Chomsky is a perfect example." [11]
A perfect example of what exactly? Apparently, it's not the neutrality of this article that's at stake here: it's the length.
I might point out that this is a man who calls Kuro5hin a blog. That hardly inspires confidence. - Ta bu shi da yu 16:33, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Dvorak somewhat hits the mark. I've only looked over the intro pagraph but I've found the descriptions of his achievement far too superlative, moreso than in any highly collaborative article I've ever read on this site. Please find a way to express his enormous impact without veering into fulsome praise. Avoid excessively sprinkling words such as landmark, revolutionary, etc. lots of issues | leave me a message 18:40, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
What is currently the precise dispute about the neutrality? Can anyone please point this out? If so, please let's work to figure out if we can revise the parts creating the dispute. If not, let us please remove the "neutrality is disputed" thing in the beginning of the article cihan 00:39, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
Since I am kind of new, I don't know... Is it possible to mark a section rather than condemn the whole article to be non-neutral? Actually, the proposition about breaking the article up into other pieces, and/or summarizing it might also remove this problem, so that we would know what small portion is disputed. How would we go about summarizing, or breaking the article up into pieces? Has this been done for any of the biographies here before? cihan 00:45, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
if christopher "i was a luxemburg-trotskyoid-marxist" hitchens isn't a leftist i don't know who is. J. Parker Stone 04:15, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
Can we close this issue now? After all, the "neutrality disputed" tag is gone now, which was what this section was originally about. -- MarkSweep 04:13, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
This page is becoming a fan page. These fans seem to immediately censor/delete any criticism, rather than adding alternative views. Chomsky's most controversial quotes and positions are thoroughly white-washed on this page. They should be presented clearly and addressed clearly, not buried in pseudo-"analysis" whose only purpose seems to muddy the waters. They "delete" and refer you to "talk", while "talk" never results in any "consensus" (ie. their permission), essentially delaying any criticism on the page forever. Why is dissent so unwelcomed? Talk about "manufacturing consent".
Here is a quote of the full paragraph showing the context:
The last line clearly refers specifically to the article written in NY Times Mag by Robert Moss. The article claims a slaughter of a million people by the Khmer Rouge as of 1976! Moss’s figure is based on a distortion of Barron and Paul’s reference to an interview that took place in 1976. Needless to say there was no credible evidence for a slaughter of a million people in 1976, nor in January 1977 when Barron & Paul’s book went to press, nor in May, 1977 at the time Moss’s article was published, nor in June 1977, at the time of the appearance of “Distortions at Fourth Hand.” One of the commonly held estimates of excess deaths (above the norm) for the total period of the Khmer regime (1975-1979) is 1.67 million advanced by the Cambodia Genocide Project (Ben Kiernan). Kiernan’s position is that the worst atrocities attributable to the central direction of the Khmer Rouge occurred from May to November in 1978. One can only conclude that Tjive and friends are so blinded by their hatred that they cannot even fathom the most elementary points concerning a chronology of events. User: BernardL
Some users seem to be under the impression here that I am interested in entertaining their replays of semantic disputes which have raged over the most intellectually sophisticated of....internet blogs for literally several years now. This is not so. What is pertinent here is that a charitable interpretation of Chomsky's words is vastly inappropriate when in fact it is precisely what engendered so much controversy in the first place. -- TJive 23:59, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
I have voluntarily removed background info on Morris from the article. Here is some representative background info on Morris's disputes with Cambodia scholars for those interested....
[ Cambodia Scholars disown Morris] [ Ben Kiernan responds to an attack on Chomsky implicating him] [ Cambodia scholar Michael Vickery responds to attack by Morris on Chomsky implicating him]
For those interested last week I asked Chomsky in his forum some questions concerning criticisms associating his media analysis with the Marxist theory of false consciousness. If anyone wants to ask a credible related follow-up question I would be happy to forward it. I think it's safe to say that the critique based upon the "false consciousness" line of argument is a pretty spurious case of guilt by association.
Q: Some critics from the right (ie:Victor Davis Hansen) tend to dismiss your and Herman's media analysis referring to it as just a recycled version of the Marxist theory of false consciousness.
NC: You'd have to ask Hansen what perverse line of reasoning -- more accurately, free association -- led him to his conclusions. Any sane and rational person can see that the analysis is just what is described: an institutional analysis that relies on relatively uncontroversial guided free market models -- in fact, those that Hansen probably professes himself, even if he goes berserk when their consequences are exposed.
Q: While I realize that the term "manufacturing consent" actually originates from early American media theory,
NC: The term "manufacturing consent" is taken from Walter Lippmann. He was not in this case constructing any media theory, but rather recommending what the "responsible men" (always including the author himself) should do to ensure that the "ignorant and meddlesome outsiders" (the public) don't interfere with the decisions of the responsible men for the public good (by definition).
Q: I would still like to know if you accept the comparison of your work to the doctrine of "false consciousness." And if not why?
NC: I don't know of any doctrine of "false consciousness," apart from the trivial and uncontroversial fact that the doctrinal institutions of any society (including, for us, media, educational systems, churches, etc.) articulate and present systems of belief that commonly reflect the interests and goals of those who dominate the institutions -- hardly a surprise. If that's the comparison that is intended, sure. What question could there be?
Q: I think Marcuse deserves much of the credit for developing some passing comments by Engels into a more substantial theory of ideology he terms false consciousness. On the face of it there are some similarities with your views. Marcuse adhered to the views of the young Marx who felt that capitalist social relations alienated humans from expressions of their "species-being", views for which you show some affinity in your "Notes on Anarchism" essay.
NC: I don't know of any substantive theories of ideology. The ideas of the early Marx on alienation are pretty much drawn from the Enlightenment-Romantic intellectual environment of his day, often in very similar words. I think these notions have a lot of value, and have written about them, in the essay you mention and elsewhere.
Q: For Marcuse, capitalism engendered "false" consciousness and "false" needs in the sense that they are unnatural. Do you agree with this line of argument?
NC: Putting aside Marcuse's contributions, there is a rich literature about the ways in which market systems and "created wants" were imposed, often by violence, on the general population, which bitterly resisted them, and still does. Meanwhile the masters devised numerous ways to protect themselves from the destructive impact of the systems they were imposing on others. That's a good part of the history of the past several centuries. What is "natural" depends on unknown facts about human nature. We do, however, know a lot about the resistance to the doctrines and institutions imposed by force. I don't know what line of argument there is beyond this.
Q: Finally critics seem to think that people who hold this position must be automatically and inevitably elitist. Implying that your views mean that "the masses have been so manipulated that they have neither the perspective or intellect to see beyond the propaganda and require superior intellects like Chomsky's to point out to them the real truth." How would you respond to such a charge?
NC: Since I've consistently and extensively written precisely the opposite, and detailed the reasons and the record at length, the charge can only come from someone so irrational and blinded by ideological fanaticism that they cannot read simple sentences. There is therefore no reason to respond.
"PIECE OF SHIT. ASSASSIN, HYPOCRITICAL AMERICAN.
HE PAID HIS PRICE BY DYING OF PAIN AND SUFFERING."
It was not me! ...but you guy(s) better go rescue your hero. user:BernardL
"Since his visit to Cuba in 2003, Chomsky has failed miserably to denounce the repression against peacefull opponents of Castro's regime and the application of the death penalty agianst 3 negros as did Jose Saramago, the Portuguese intelectual, member of the Portuguese Communist Party. Some much for Chomsky's anarchist credentials."
Can anyone substantiate a word of this? -- TJive 21:46, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
-There isn't a scratch of evidence to suggest that Chomsky is pro-Castro. It seems unfair to leave the photo up; I'm sure Chomsky has met many intellectuals and political figures and has been friendly even though he disagrees with them.
A conservative (possibly TJive or J. Parker Stone) has made it so that when you search for Chomsky it redirects you to Stalin can anyone fix this?
I'm posting here in an effort to circumvent the convolution of this already massive talk page, and what appears to be bickering -- good-natured or otherwise -- between supporters and denegrators alike of Noam Chomsky. The bottom line that I can see is this: Chomsky's article can be further augmented for the better with regards to size and content.
Make no mistake -- this is an encyclopedia, and more information is always beneficial, provided it is NPOV and accurate. However, at some points the need to divide articles arises, particularly in the event that an article's size becomes a discouraging factor to the "casual scholar." Specific to this article, I realize that its size and subject matter have become a point of pride or derision for many involved; I would propose that everyone take a step back and consider the entire article objectively. What has been written as an article on one man, Noam Chomsky, now encompasses many subjects that -- although related to Chomsky -- are not necessarily integral to this page. That does NOT mean they should be deleted, but that a reorganization should be considered.
I have a couple of suggestions for trimming the article -- some more applicable (or implementable, as it were) than others: [Due to the nature of this particular talk page, I must state ahead of time that none of these suggestions are attacks on the methodology of any other Wikipedia posters -- only suggestions based on comparison of this Wikipedia article with alternate sources on the same subject.]
1. Avoid "book reporting". In any article about an author, a line must be drawn between the works and the writer. While some explanation of a publication's subject matter is necessary, we should relegate, where possible, information specifically about a book to its own article. Look for example, at the articles on Henry Thoreau or Steven Pinker. While we can introduce an author's works, the article is indeed about Noam Chomsky, not "Manufacturing Consent" -- though he wrote it.
2. Consolidate similar subcategories. Instead of scrolling pages and pages, why not create an article called "Criticism of Chomsky" and have the subcategories there? While it is important to note that Chomsky has been criticized, we can do so without discussing these events in great depth on the same page that lists his name and birth-date. Creating articles like "Criticism of Chomsky" and "Chomskyan Criticism" (which would be his own criticisms) would not mean deleting any mention of them as a whole on this page. In many ways, this diversification of articles would help by making these individual subjects the central item in their own pieces as opposed to being consigned to notes or sections in a larger work. This reorganization would also apply to the myriad of links at the bottom of the Chomsky page, which could then be moved to the appropriate articles. Whether or not "Criticism of Chomsky" is referred to in the main text or listed as a "related article" -- or both -- would be at the editors' discretion. Another benefit of article diversification like this would be the ability to mark individual articles as "Neutrality Disputed" instead of stamping such on the entire Chomsky piece. [While I understand said stamp has since been rectified, the fervor with which this article is maintained could easily give rise to such objections again.]
I understand that many of you know more about the subject at hand, as well as more about Wikipedia editing in general. My intent here is to provide some objective ideas -- take them or leave them -- about what could be done with this article to ease some of the controversy found on this very talk page and, perhaps more importantly, make [the article] more readable or less intimidating for the average Wikipedia user. I do not claim to understand the subtle dynamics of who is supporting Chomsky and vice versa, I just think that we have the opportunity to refine what is already an impressive Wiki article. phreyan August 1 2005 1:12 PM
Any characterization of Chomky´s work in Linguistics in terms of just 'influencing the field' as was proposed in a recent reversal is wrong and essentially misguided.
Let us start with his doctoral dissertation. It was so atypical of the work done by the linguistic establishement that it found no publisher, and it was only by intervention of R. Jakobson-- another outsider and one of the founding fathers of XX century formal linguistics--that a short version was eventually published in Holland in a rather obscure series ,Janua Linguarum.
Secondly, it was necessary an almost book-lenghth review of Syntactic Structures by Bob Lees to begin to give a glimpse of the inportance and revolutionary character of his work to the outside world, meaning the structuralist-descriptivist establishment, who largely ignored it .
In fact it was the change in attitude that was simmering in some areas outside mainstream psychology, like cybernetics, information theory, and early artificial intelligence that was to frutify in what we now call the cogintive revolution -- bombastic or not -- that made Chomsky´s own ideas about language acceptable . He himself contributed to this by a celebrated review of Skinner´s work that revealed the limitations of any behaviorist approach to mental phenomena.
This is all plain today and was assimilated into mainstream academia.
It was at the time a complete break from the established methodology and goals of linguistic research. In fact it was so new that no linguist educated in the structuralist tradition ever came to appreciate the novelty of Chomky´s work.
That´s when we -- bombastically or not -- talk of scientific revolutuion. Or you might prefer to use kuhnian vocabulary of 'paradigm shift', or Bachelard 'epistemological break'. In fact only a new generation of young scholars was able to appprecite the scope of the ideas originally developed by C., and to pursue his basic insights into a rich mesh of new contributions.
Wiki-correctness must not be a pretext to accept a mellow and uncharacteristic representation of what is work of originality and depth that radically changed a whole field of research and became a 'de facto' approach against which all competeting or dissenting opinion continually have to measure up.
~~pete
I've set up a sandbox for a "Criticisms of Noam Chomsky" article. To start with, I've just copied the text and external links from the main article. If nobody objects, I'd like to add the article to Wikipedia and delete the corresponding sections from the main article. Russil Wvong 18:01, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
This section appears to have grotesque POV problems. Chomsky's teach-in remark about the French press covering a cough is a caricature, but it's not nearly treated as such. The comment appears is an exchange called "anti-intellectualism" in which Chomsky is deprecating the intellectual elevation granted to the academy, and he uses France (he remarks that the comparison is generally valid in Europe) to make a contrast and pushes it further by turning the "French intellectual community" into a caricature of itself (although it would probably be valid to say that Sartre, the example he then names, was often that very caricature). French writers (were in any case making these remarks long before Chomsky. There isn't the slightest attempt to note that Chomsky's own experience of the French press in connection with intellectuals was largely formed by the Faurisson affair, which does put a lot more of his skin in the game than the article lets on. The whole treatment seems to accumulate a massive irony: Chomsky trying to lecture Voltaire to a French historian telling him that there's no argument about free speech, only about Chomsky's going beyond a defence of its exercise to statements taken to be an apologia for an antisemite revisionist, forgetting to mention the historical significance of a French intellectual accusing the French state of antisemitism and failing to mention the French philosophers (even the one he liked) remarking that this model of intellectual was already in the grave, even when there was one last such figure still walking around Paris.
As for the remarks about Derrida, let's recall the kind of caveats Chomsky has attached to discussion of Derrida: "Let me begin by saying that I dislike making the kind of comments that follow without providing evidence, but I doubt that participants want a close analysis of de Saussure, say, in this forum, and I know that I'm not going to undertake it. I wouldn't say this if I hadn't been explicitly asked for my opinion --- and if asked to back it up, I'm going to respond that I don't think it merits the time to do so." So: no evidence, and if pressed, I'll drop the matter for lack of interest. This isn't exactly Chomsky staking any of his credibility on the anything that follows. This doesn't seem to rise above the level of criticism one was likely to find on the pages of Lingua Franca, yet no attention is given to this seeming inattention. This would appear to elevate Chomsky on this matter to the level of authority he finds so upsetting in the French, which would appear rather more a matter of sycophancy than fidelity.
In short: this section would appear badly in need of a rewrite. Buffyg 23:48, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
Just for the record, I wrote the section on Chomsky and the French and I am definitely a fan of Chomsky. If the section comes across as negatively biased I certainly did not intend it to be so. I think Chomsky's point of view on this matter is intelligent and noble, as it relates to his belief that the intellectual should be accessible and open to the common man. H.R.
I've got no problems with the section on the French, and i've read more than my share of Derrida, Althusser, Foucault, et al. FWIW -- i largely agree with Chomsky's opinions, and i think he did a respectable job of voicing his ideas in a casual, unembittered way. Klipklop
I think the "France" section should be fused with the bit about his opinion on postmodernism, it's the same issue. The fact the godfathers are from France is immaterial. Chomsky's own leftist critiques are significantly grounded by rationalist principles and set him apart from the mainstay of academic scientolog-, I mean, postmodernists. --Urb
It is absurd that this section has been flagged for neutraility issues. These *are* Chomsky's views on French intellectuals. That a reader does not like these views doesn't make them any less Chomsky's views. Indeed, Chomsky's views are even stronger. He has written:
"So take Derrida, one of the grand old men. I thought I ought to at least be able to understand his Grammatology, so tried to read it. I could make out some of it, for example, the critical analysis of classical texts that I knew very well and had written about years before. I found the scholarship appalling, based on pathetic misreading; and the argument, such as it was, failed to come close to the kinds of standards I've been familiar with since virtually childhood."
And:
"Some of the people in these cults (which is what they look like to me) I've met: Foucault (we even have a several-hour discussion, which is in print, and spent quite a few hours in very pleasant conversation, on real issues, and using language that was perfectly comprehensible --- he speaking French, me English); Lacan (who I met several times and considered an amusing and perfectly self-conscious charlatan, though his earlier work, pre-cult, was sensible and I've discussed it in print); Kristeva (who I met only briefly during the period when she was a fervent Maoist); and others. Many of them I haven't met, because I am very remote from from these circles, by choice, preferring quite different and far broader ones --- the kinds where I give talks, have interviews, take part in activities, write dozens of long letters every week, etc. I've dipped into what they write out of curiosity, but not very far, for reasons already mentioned: what I find is extremely pretentious, but on examination, a lot of it is simply illiterate, based on extraordinary misreading of texts that I know well (sometimes, that I have written), argument that is appalling in its casual lack of elementary self-criticism, lots of statements that are trivial (though dressed up in complicated verbiage) or false; and a good deal of plain gibberish."
And:
"As to 'posturing,' a lot of it is that, in my opinion, though I don't particularly blame Foucault for it: it's such a deeply rooted part of the corrupt intellectual culture of Paris that he fell into it pretty naturally, though to his credit, he distanced himself from it. As for the 'corruption' of this culture particularly since World War II, that's another topic, which I've discussed elsewhere...."
Additionally, a few years ago, after a talk at he gave at MIT, I asked Chomsky about Foucault. He was basically dismissive, and went on to say something to the effect of, "I don't really read anything that comes out of Paris."
In sum, Chomsky's views on postmodernism and French intellectuals and French intellectual culture is accurately represented in this section, and there should be no neutrality flag appended to it. Simply because one does not like Chomsky's views on this topic, or does not think Chomsky's views are based on methodology appropriate to the task of arrriving at such views (an ironic objection, n'est-ce pas?), does not mean that they are not Chomsky's views.
Buffyg, you ought to allow Chomsky his views and stop trying to suppress them simply because you perceive them to be tarnishing your idols.
DM 9/28/05
I'll try again.
The fact that one does not like the fact that Chomsky regards Parisian intellectual culture as corrupt and many of the leading lights of postmodernism as frauds does not make Chomsky's views *not* Chomsky's views. The fact that Chomsky issues weak qualifiers and sarcastic caveats before dismissing work whose value one might see differently does not attentuate Chomsky's opinions as opinions .
Again, one may not like his opinions, or like how he arrived at his opinions, but they *are* Chomsky's opinions and should be recognized as such.
If a reader would like to debate Chomsky's views and the methodology by which Chomsky arrived at them, perhaps he should call Chomsky's office and see if he's available, or set up a new page on Wikipedia entitled, "Why I Disagree with Chomsky's Views on French Intellectuals". I'm sure such a page would make for reading that would be, if nothing else, lengthy.
If all of this is beyond a reader's understanding, or frustrating, or both, well...perhaps some policing action on other pages whose subjects take a dim view of the French intellectual scene and postmodernism's leading lights would be a satisfying outlet.
DM 10/3/05
Listen, I saw Chomsky's discussion on this topic in two books, Understanding Power, and Anarchism and I have seen him express the same opinion on the matter elsewhere. The article I wrote uses direct quotation from Chomsky's talks, this discussion of POV problems is absurd. If there are any recorded statements from Chomsky that contradict the one I have cited please incorporate them into the article and get rid of the flag please. HW 10/3/05
HW, you are right on. Buffyg, please direct your attention to my above entry. Perhaps a little more reading and a little less writing will help you understand.
DM 10/04/05
Buffyg, two things (read before you write, please!). 1) Reread my 10/03 entry above. 2) Read the following, from the NPOV guidelines. I have italicized the relevant sections for your benefit:
"Probably the only grounds on which there could be an NPOV dispute over an article that actually conformed to the NPOV is when one or both of the parties to the dispute did not understand either the NPOV policy, or enough about the subject matter to realize that nothing favoring one POV had actually been said. For example, ideologues, when presented with an article that has exemplary neutrality (as per our policy), will consider the article biased precisely because it does not reflect their own bias enough. Probably, such people simply do not understand the NPOV policy.
"By linking to this page from an article, a dissenter can register his or her concern without unduly upsetting the author(s) or maintainer(s) of the article, and without starting a flame war. Others would maintain, however, that linking to this page only postpones the dispute. This might be a good thing, though, if a "cooling off" period seems required.
"Everyone can agree that marking an article as having an NPOV dispute is a temporary measure, and should be followed up by actual contributions to the article in order to put it in such a state that people agree that it is neutral."
So, if Chomsky takes a dim view of your idols, why don't you make your edits instead of indulging your logorhea on this page? Or, if you would like to indulge your hollow logorhea, why don't you set up a link to another page in which you discuss all the reasons why Chomsky's views on this matter don't conform to your own.
I realize that it's reasonable to assume that you've flagged this article because you do "not understand either the NPOV policy, or enough about the subject matter to realize that nothing favoring one POV had actually been said"; after all, you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "temporary", which is far less complex than the NPOV policy. In any case, a quick trip to a dictionary ought to bring you up to speed on the meaning of the word "temporary" (unless you're too far down the signifying chain to accept standard definitions?), which, once understood, should persuade you to follow my advice and remove the flag (assuming you want to play by the rules of the community).
Then, as I've said above, you can go on to other policing actions-- perhaps you'll go so far in your sanitizing efforts that a comfortable online fantasy world will exist for you in which no one has ever actually said anything bad about your heroes.
DM 10/5/05
Buffyg, five items:
1) Why do you assume I am male? Are you making assumptions based on language use? Should you be making these assumptions? (I hope you're not priveleging!)
2) I see your hero-worship extends to the Habermas page. You did a fine job making the last two paragraphs of the Habermas article focus more on Derrida than on Habermas (or, at best, focus only on Habermas qua Derrida interlocutor). Perhaps you'll eventually make all of the pages on Wikipedia have Derrida at their center! (What do you suppose Derrida thought about the red/green binarism of the flag of Belarus?) You certainly seem to have the time and logorhea necessary for such a task. In any case, you without question possess the skills required to help transform Wikipedia into a resource one turns to when one wants information courtesy of domineering hacks. Keep at it, mate! (Stricken as personal attacks by
Buffyg 18:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC))
3) A definition of temporary I pulled out of a dictionary, for your benefit: "Lasting, used, or enjoyed for a limited time; impermanent, transient"
4) Reread my entries from 10/3 and 10/5.
5) Remove the flag, in accordance with the community's guidelines.
DM 10/07/05
I've offered an initial edit. I believe it more thoroughly represents Chomsky's views both in their generality and in some of the specifics of the French case. I've also made an effort to show where critics (I used Žižek as exemplary) find Chomsky's views on these matters to be fundamentally weak or insufficient (which I think goes a long way to providing NPOV). I don't offer it as a perfect edit; some of the language isn't as smooth as it could be. Please feel free to make improvements. Buffyg 23:46, 9 October 2005 (UTC)
For my part I do not think it thoroughly represents Chomsky's views, aspects of which are, at best, only implicitly represented in the selection from the interview in "Understanding Power" being used as an example. I think that in order to further understand Chomsky on this matter one should recognize that he has long had a comprehensive engagement with methodological issues in the sciences and he has written much about them in the areas of linguistics and related philosophies of mind. What has he written about it, Mr. Zizek? It is interesting to note that Zizek's descriptions of Chomsky's "anti-theoretical" bias are not based upon careful or comprehensive textual evidence. Zizek admits that his view of Chomsky's position is an interpretation that comes second-hand from a friend who had lunch with Chomsky. (Zizek, a smart man, but always something of a windbag, is famous for this type of chattiness.) In reality, Chomsky is not anti-theory per se, instead he is more accurately described as a minimalist who advocates critical, non-speculative theory when it is appropriately grounded. Lacking deeply grounded theories in social affairs, he believes it better to proceed pragmatically, with moral principles and the relevant truisms to guide us, rather than engage in speculation that so often lends itself to befuddling, sometimes destructive, illusory constructs. Chomsky's so-called linguistic revolution was itself a methodological paradigm shift based upon theoretical constructs as much as anything else. So why is Chomsky underwhelmed (and often confounded) by the theoeretical constructs of post-modernists concerning ideology, or by neoclassical economics concerning marginal utility, or freudian psychology concerning the "subconscious", and many other realms of the social sciences? I think it is because his test of a social theory employs a similar methodological criteria as he would employ in relation to the natural sciences, in particular the desiderata of precision, richness and non-trivial explanatory power; and in looking from that perspective he finds most theory outside of them lacking in comparison...."outside of physics and mathematics and now maybe biology and a few things in other fields, there really hasn't been any work that one would call intellectually deep. We don't know whether it is because of, as you suggest, historical conditions, or because of something intrinsic between the problems and the nature of the human mind. Maybe we can understand just that kind of problem and not some other kind of problem." (Language and Politics, 95)...Is there a theory of ideology that coheres with the best of what we know from the natural sciences and about human nature that contains a non-trivial account of how the elements of ideology emerge and evolve? Finally, I would like to ask whether the work of Derrida, Foucault,or Zizek have had an appreciable impact on activists? Or this a case where "theory" is a closed shop, forever beyond the comprehension of the unwashed masses, and a leninist class of derridean sheperds is required to herd them towards the "communist" utopia? [user:darwin76]
It's incorrect because unstressed vowels are reduced. See Russian Alphabet
I wonder whether it is appropriate to include the picture of Chomsky meeting Castro. By including the picture, the article may suggest that Chomsky has a special liking for Castro by suggesting a personal connection. Chomsky has stated in his open letter to the Guardian that the picture was taken during an annual meeting for an international society of Latin American scholars. The meeting was held in Havana and Chomsky only met with Castro as part of a group (see http://www.chomsky.info/letters/20051113.htm). - PJ
I have removed the image of Chomsky with Castro under the "Views on Socialism" section as I think it is an attempt to play on standard anti-socialist propaganda in the US and and associate Chomsky with a non-capitalist leader who is hated in the Western world. Yes the image is real, but it is deceiving. Chomsky has commented on the images use (not in wikipedia, but he might as well have been):
Turn to the Castro picture. In this case the picture, though clipped, is real. As the editors surely know, at least if those who located the picture did 2 minutes of research, the others in the picture (apart from my wife) were, like me, participants in the annual meeting of an international society of Latin American scholars, with a few others from abroad. This annual meeting happened to be in Havana. Like all others, I was in a group that met with Castro. End of second story. [14]
What does this image have anything to do with his views on socialism? Nothing! This is an encyclopedia, and as stated previously, this image serves only to bias the reader. Chomsky does not "believe" Cuba has a better human rights record than Israel, but simply states this fact. Even if you absurd pro-Isreali, anti-Cuban rant is true (which it isn't) this still is no arguement to include the image. If you would like to display this image then put it somewhere appropiate. For that matter, none of these images of Chomsky are relavent to article. At best they are neutral and make the page look fancier, and at worst bias the reader in a negative fashion.
Delete Castro Silliness Now
TDC I read the discussion above and you have not justified the use of this photo whereas your interlocutors make persuasive arguments against using it. Its only purpose is to project POV that is not supported in reality. As everyone noted this is just not an appropriate photo for this article. Your only response is some sort of nonsense about the meaning of Chomsky's grimace. If you want to make a section about Chomsky's views on Cuba this photo might have some relevance but its only purpose here is to make a bizarre guilt-by-association argument.- csloat 05:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
This picture is excellent, stop trying to censor it. What do you mean by guilt-by-association, i.e. what is Castro guilty of? Unlike Chomsky, you seem to be affected by American anti-Castro propaganda. Here's Chomsky having some fun with the comparisons: "The Globe also ran a front-page think-piece on 11 November. In its first paragraph we learn that Arafat was "one of the iconic group of charismatic, authoritarian leaders -- from Mao Zedong in China to Fidel Castro in Cuba to Saddam Hussein in Iraq -- who arose from anti-colonial movements that swept the globe following World War II." The statement is interesting from several points of view. The linkage reveals, once again, the obligatory visceral hatred of Castro. There have been shifting pretexts as circumstances changed, but no information to question the conclusions of US intelligence in the early days of Washington's terrorist attacks and economic warfare against Cuba: the basic problem is his "successful defiance" of US policies going back to the Monroe Doctrine. But there is an element of truth in the portrayal of Arafat in the Globe think-piece, as there would have been in a front-page report during the imperial ceremonies for the semi-divine Reagan, describing him as one of the iconic group of mass murderers -- from Hitler to Idi Amin to Peres -- who slaughtered with abandon and with strong support from media and intellectuals. Those who do not comprehend the analogy have some history to learn." [15] Tcsh
Personally, I don't care whether the picture is in or out, as long as it's under an appropriate heading. As it is, the picture can not be said to be under an appropriate heading. It has nothing to do with Chomsky the Libertarian Socialist; and quite little to do with Chomsky the Scholar, for that matter. If someone wish to make a new heading titled "Famous People Chomsky Has Met" or something like that, then I think it would be OK in principle to keep the picture. However, given the forum (i.e. encyclopedia) I don't think that such a heading can be justified, since it would be too trivial. -PJ
There isn't a single link to any external sources which are critical of Chomsky. Could it be that Chomsky supporters fear any scrutiny of the professor?
DrZin 05:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)