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It said: "Even with the odds stacked on her side -- a college education culminating with a Ph.D. in biology, a car, no dependents (other than herself), and initial funds -- Ehrenreich fails to achieve a sustainable lifestyle." I took the bit about her degree out, since as a part of her exparament, she didn't reveal her educational background. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.207.174 ( talk) 00:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
So she hid a sheet of paper and therefor no longer had an education? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.214.196.126 (
talk) 16:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
In response to your request for comments, here are my reactions:
My suggestions
Overall, nice job. Your work here will be welcome. alteripse 04:01, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The "Criticism" section is entirely unsourced. Anyone can come up with reasons why this book is good reporting, is poor reporting, gives an accurate picture of the lives of low-wage earners, misconstructs the lives of low-wage earners and so on. Unless the section is backed up with sources it is original research and shouldn't be here. Pilatus 04:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I am restoring much of what has been removed. Marijuana use is important because (as it originally said before its unwarranted deletion) part of the job search was a drug test. I'm including as reference an article by the Columbia Journalism Review, which is extremely critical of this book, and cannot be said to be POV.
The only thing about this article is that the entire thing is POV, and socialist-minded contributors seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to any criticism. Too bad - there's no room for isms here. -- L. 19:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
This author/narrator dichotomy you introduce is a cop-out. This is not a piece of art; it is a piece of non-fiction intended to be journalism. Within journalism (and study the proceedings of libel cases if you don't believe me) a person's personal role and beliefs often become major issues, and cannot be seperated from their work. And by calling it journalism, it is open to criticism by professional journalists.
Don't play the political card on me - as my profile and edits indicate, I despise all political standpoints, and have gotten flamed by libertarians and communists alike on Wiki. And FYI, a criticism section by definition would include selective critical statements on the book. Don't expect to lavish praise on a book without expecting negative comments. The edits I made were well-needed and conductive to Wiki's mission. -- L. 16:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
The essay on Mrs Ehrenreich and her best-selling book that you are quoting in the article is actually heaping high praise on the author. The text says:
For Ehrenreich, Nickel and Dimed is something of a literary triumph. Her essays … seem one-dimensional when read in large doses. And while her books are absorbing and original, the writing isn't always stylish. Nickel and Dimed, however, shows us a veteran journalist at the very top of her game. The book has a sturdy architecture: four tight, compact chapters in which the prose achieves a perfect balance between wit, anger, melancholy, and rage.
It continues:
Ehrenreich is superb on the capricious and demeaning aspects of low-wage work. … Her descriptions of the work itself often have a jarring, peculiar originality. …
Stating that "even the Columbia Journalism Review gave the book an extremely negative assessment" is misreading the article fully. Your political ideas did get the better of you. You might find it disquieting that Mrs Ehrenreich "never studied journalism … and never relinquished her disdain for authority" and that it somehow detracts form the validity of her work". The CJR doesn't, rather the contrary. (I agree with you that Barbara "never embraced objectivity" and unlike the essayist find that it damages her credibility enormously.) Unless that is backed up by external sources saying do is dangerously close to original research and thus shouldn't be here. Pilatus 23:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Does the essay really attack Ehrenreich for failing to discuss the horrors of the Cultural Revolution in 1974? That section of the text looks to me like a stock development story of the left-wing political activist - from someone whose "early journalistic output is indistinguishable from cant", moving in circles where "two … friends denounced [her]", that she left behind to develop "today's mature literary voice".
I also don't see her "compassion degenerating into spite" as "back-handed criticism", as you say. The essay clearly states that such sentiments are part of the journalistic tradition beginning with London and Orwell, they are a literary device to illustrate the "immutability of class boundaries" and provide "examples of reportorial honesty and, in Orwell's case, narrative sophistication". Besides, from Ehrenreich's standpoint, such behaviour is self-consistent, she implies that one must display solidarity with one's fellow workers, on everyone else one can heap scorn as much as one would like. Pilatus 01:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Let's get back to the marijuana issue and the "exiled princess" issue. I could make statements to the extent that these are literary devices used to make a point, and you use these to criticize the author and the book. Unless these statements are backed up by external sources these are original research in the sense of WP:NOR and should no be here. You say that "within journalism … a person's personal role and beliefs often become major issues, and cannot be seperated from their work. And by calling it journalism, it is open to criticism by professional journalists." I couldn't agree more. If any critic has made such statements they should be included with a reference to the source. If they can't be backed up with references they must go per Wikipedia policy. Pilatus 16:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
"I could make statements" means exactly that. It means that I could put forward my own interpretation backed up by quotes from the text. Do read WP:NOR, especially the section "Origin of this policy", which states
It can be quite difficult for us to make any valid judgment as to whether a particular thing is true or not. It isn't appropriate for us to try to determine whether someone's novel theory of physics is valid; we aren't really equipped to do that. But what we can do is check whether or not it actually has been published in reputable journals or by reputable publishers. So it's quite convenient to avoid judging the credibility of things by simply sticking to things that have been judged credible by people much better equipped to decide.
If you find that in some review the author is criticized for smoking hashish or thinking of herself as a fairy princess by all means put it in. If this can't be backed up by external sources it must be left out per established Wikipedia policy that isn't open to discussion.
There are a number of things wrong with the article. What is missing is a summary of the last chapter "Evaluation" of that book as well as a critical commentary on that - backed up with external sources, otherwise someone will come and shout WP:NOR.
I also think that there are a number of things wrong with the book - the style isn't great, the author sets herself up for failure in order to make a point and it is full of inconsistencies (case in point: in the "Minnesota" chapter the aunt of a friend who moved to Minneapolis as a single mother manages just fine with an unskilled job and advises her to "seek out a church". When the author tries the same she fails and the church isn't helful for her). Unless I see these things in the literature somewhere they can't go in the article per policy.
I will look up sorces in the next few days to work on the article and look forward to your collaboration. Pilatus 19:23, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey folks. I realize there has been some recent discussion about the book in the sections above. However, it's clear to me that this article got off track a few months back causing the primary image and intro to be removed. Here's where the article seems to have gone astray. Someone removed these important elements, then vandalism occurred which essentially solidified the bad edits.
Here's my first restore, which brings back the bulk of the better version. Here's a second "fix-up", which reinstates the good edits that have recently been made. Hopefully this is agreeable to all the legitimate editors involved in this article. -- Wolf530 ( talk) 15:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no criticism of this book? It is presented as if it where Gospel! No one has done the legwork to get valid criticism?
TuckerResearch 19:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I just tried to examine that source, and it asks for a password and username with no explanation of how to access it. should internet sources be included when they can't be examined? maybe the isbn information of the relevant book would be better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.75.166.34 ( talk) 17:21, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Seijihyouronka (
talk) 08:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't like that the criticism section consists mostly of a description of another book refuting the conclusions of this book; it suggests an agenda.
It seems to me that "a description of another book refuting the conclusions of this book" is exactly what I'd expect to see in a criticism section. If it supported the conclusions of this book, it wouldn't be criticism. That critical book may well have its own agenda; so does Ehrenreich's book--that doesn't violate NPOV. What's important for this article is that Ehrenreich's book be described accurately, including criticisms. I think reference to a book whose author was inspired by Ehrenreich's book to put it to empirical test is perfectly appropriate. IMHO, that author took more reasonable steps than Ehrenreich, who started out with the expense of a car, didn't try to share living expenses, and didn't take steps to minimize her food bills or stick with any job long enough to try to work her way into a higher-paying position. Lippard ( talk) 04:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
People do live like this. Face reality instead of constantly trying to sweep it under the rug.
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||
|
It said: "Even with the odds stacked on her side -- a college education culminating with a Ph.D. in biology, a car, no dependents (other than herself), and initial funds -- Ehrenreich fails to achieve a sustainable lifestyle." I took the bit about her degree out, since as a part of her exparament, she didn't reveal her educational background. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.207.174 ( talk) 00:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
So she hid a sheet of paper and therefor no longer had an education? — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.214.196.126 (
talk) 16:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
In response to your request for comments, here are my reactions:
My suggestions
Overall, nice job. Your work here will be welcome. alteripse 04:01, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The "Criticism" section is entirely unsourced. Anyone can come up with reasons why this book is good reporting, is poor reporting, gives an accurate picture of the lives of low-wage earners, misconstructs the lives of low-wage earners and so on. Unless the section is backed up with sources it is original research and shouldn't be here. Pilatus 04:20, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
I am restoring much of what has been removed. Marijuana use is important because (as it originally said before its unwarranted deletion) part of the job search was a drug test. I'm including as reference an article by the Columbia Journalism Review, which is extremely critical of this book, and cannot be said to be POV.
The only thing about this article is that the entire thing is POV, and socialist-minded contributors seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to any criticism. Too bad - there's no room for isms here. -- L. 19:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
This author/narrator dichotomy you introduce is a cop-out. This is not a piece of art; it is a piece of non-fiction intended to be journalism. Within journalism (and study the proceedings of libel cases if you don't believe me) a person's personal role and beliefs often become major issues, and cannot be seperated from their work. And by calling it journalism, it is open to criticism by professional journalists.
Don't play the political card on me - as my profile and edits indicate, I despise all political standpoints, and have gotten flamed by libertarians and communists alike on Wiki. And FYI, a criticism section by definition would include selective critical statements on the book. Don't expect to lavish praise on a book without expecting negative comments. The edits I made were well-needed and conductive to Wiki's mission. -- L. 16:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
The essay on Mrs Ehrenreich and her best-selling book that you are quoting in the article is actually heaping high praise on the author. The text says:
For Ehrenreich, Nickel and Dimed is something of a literary triumph. Her essays … seem one-dimensional when read in large doses. And while her books are absorbing and original, the writing isn't always stylish. Nickel and Dimed, however, shows us a veteran journalist at the very top of her game. The book has a sturdy architecture: four tight, compact chapters in which the prose achieves a perfect balance between wit, anger, melancholy, and rage.
It continues:
Ehrenreich is superb on the capricious and demeaning aspects of low-wage work. … Her descriptions of the work itself often have a jarring, peculiar originality. …
Stating that "even the Columbia Journalism Review gave the book an extremely negative assessment" is misreading the article fully. Your political ideas did get the better of you. You might find it disquieting that Mrs Ehrenreich "never studied journalism … and never relinquished her disdain for authority" and that it somehow detracts form the validity of her work". The CJR doesn't, rather the contrary. (I agree with you that Barbara "never embraced objectivity" and unlike the essayist find that it damages her credibility enormously.) Unless that is backed up by external sources saying do is dangerously close to original research and thus shouldn't be here. Pilatus 23:46, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
Does the essay really attack Ehrenreich for failing to discuss the horrors of the Cultural Revolution in 1974? That section of the text looks to me like a stock development story of the left-wing political activist - from someone whose "early journalistic output is indistinguishable from cant", moving in circles where "two … friends denounced [her]", that she left behind to develop "today's mature literary voice".
I also don't see her "compassion degenerating into spite" as "back-handed criticism", as you say. The essay clearly states that such sentiments are part of the journalistic tradition beginning with London and Orwell, they are a literary device to illustrate the "immutability of class boundaries" and provide "examples of reportorial honesty and, in Orwell's case, narrative sophistication". Besides, from Ehrenreich's standpoint, such behaviour is self-consistent, she implies that one must display solidarity with one's fellow workers, on everyone else one can heap scorn as much as one would like. Pilatus 01:38, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Let's get back to the marijuana issue and the "exiled princess" issue. I could make statements to the extent that these are literary devices used to make a point, and you use these to criticize the author and the book. Unless these statements are backed up by external sources these are original research in the sense of WP:NOR and should no be here. You say that "within journalism … a person's personal role and beliefs often become major issues, and cannot be seperated from their work. And by calling it journalism, it is open to criticism by professional journalists." I couldn't agree more. If any critic has made such statements they should be included with a reference to the source. If they can't be backed up with references they must go per Wikipedia policy. Pilatus 16:02, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
"I could make statements" means exactly that. It means that I could put forward my own interpretation backed up by quotes from the text. Do read WP:NOR, especially the section "Origin of this policy", which states
It can be quite difficult for us to make any valid judgment as to whether a particular thing is true or not. It isn't appropriate for us to try to determine whether someone's novel theory of physics is valid; we aren't really equipped to do that. But what we can do is check whether or not it actually has been published in reputable journals or by reputable publishers. So it's quite convenient to avoid judging the credibility of things by simply sticking to things that have been judged credible by people much better equipped to decide.
If you find that in some review the author is criticized for smoking hashish or thinking of herself as a fairy princess by all means put it in. If this can't be backed up by external sources it must be left out per established Wikipedia policy that isn't open to discussion.
There are a number of things wrong with the article. What is missing is a summary of the last chapter "Evaluation" of that book as well as a critical commentary on that - backed up with external sources, otherwise someone will come and shout WP:NOR.
I also think that there are a number of things wrong with the book - the style isn't great, the author sets herself up for failure in order to make a point and it is full of inconsistencies (case in point: in the "Minnesota" chapter the aunt of a friend who moved to Minneapolis as a single mother manages just fine with an unskilled job and advises her to "seek out a church". When the author tries the same she fails and the church isn't helful for her). Unless I see these things in the literature somewhere they can't go in the article per policy.
I will look up sorces in the next few days to work on the article and look forward to your collaboration. Pilatus 19:23, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey folks. I realize there has been some recent discussion about the book in the sections above. However, it's clear to me that this article got off track a few months back causing the primary image and intro to be removed. Here's where the article seems to have gone astray. Someone removed these important elements, then vandalism occurred which essentially solidified the bad edits.
Here's my first restore, which brings back the bulk of the better version. Here's a second "fix-up", which reinstates the good edits that have recently been made. Hopefully this is agreeable to all the legitimate editors involved in this article. -- Wolf530 ( talk) 15:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Why is there no criticism of this book? It is presented as if it where Gospel! No one has done the legwork to get valid criticism?
TuckerResearch 19:08, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I just tried to examine that source, and it asks for a password and username with no explanation of how to access it. should internet sources be included when they can't be examined? maybe the isbn information of the relevant book would be better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.75.166.34 ( talk) 17:21, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
Seijihyouronka (
talk) 08:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't like that the criticism section consists mostly of a description of another book refuting the conclusions of this book; it suggests an agenda.
It seems to me that "a description of another book refuting the conclusions of this book" is exactly what I'd expect to see in a criticism section. If it supported the conclusions of this book, it wouldn't be criticism. That critical book may well have its own agenda; so does Ehrenreich's book--that doesn't violate NPOV. What's important for this article is that Ehrenreich's book be described accurately, including criticisms. I think reference to a book whose author was inspired by Ehrenreich's book to put it to empirical test is perfectly appropriate. IMHO, that author took more reasonable steps than Ehrenreich, who started out with the expense of a car, didn't try to share living expenses, and didn't take steps to minimize her food bills or stick with any job long enough to try to work her way into a higher-paying position. Lippard ( talk) 04:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
People do live like this. Face reality instead of constantly trying to sweep it under the rug.