This article is within the scope of WikiProject Museums, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
museums on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MuseumsWikipedia:WikiProject MuseumsTemplate:WikiProject MuseumsMuseums articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject National Register of Historic Places, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of U.S.
historic sites listed on the
National Register of Historic Places on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.National Register of Historic PlacesWikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic PlacesTemplate:WikiProject National Register of Historic PlacesNational Register of Historic Places articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
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skepticism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism articles
Some of the page history has gone missing, there were edits between 2012 and 1 July 2015.
E.M.Gregory (
talk) 17:38, 13 August 2015 (UTC)reply
List of museum incidents
I have previously undone the addition of a list of museum incidents, which are not directly related to this article, but it has been restored. Input welcome, —
PaleoNeonate – 23:54, 17 August 2017 (UTC)reply
The removal was correct. What other museums have done is irrelevant. Those insisting on re-inserting this material should instead create an article on museums and looted artifacts --
Guy Macon (
talk) 03:45, 21 August 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Danlidwin: More information related to the disputed changes:
WP:NPOVN discussion (this is an archive which should not be edited, but a new thread may be opened at
WP:NPOVN if needed). Thanks, —
PaleoNeonate – 19:05, 20 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Article Seems largely Biased
The entire structure of this article seems largely biased. Normally there is a section for "criticisms" and/or "controversies" but it seems some editors have taken it upon themselves to make sure that criticisms or controversies are brought up in every section even if they're only tangentially related. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Asburysouthpaw (
talk •
contribs) 01:56, 23 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I don't see that. The "History" section has no criticisms. The "Projected exhibits" section has no criticisms. The "Food services" section has no criticisms. The "Board and leadership" section has no criticisms. The "Gallery" section has no criticisms. The introduction and the "Reception" sections mention relevant controversies, as they should.
peterl (
talk) 03:34, 23 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I, too, see no evidence that the "entire structure" of the article is biased, or any part of it, for that matter. Actually, many editors favor incorporating criticism into the article rather than creating separate criticism/controversy sections. So,
Asburysouthpaw, I think that you need to be far more specific with your criticisms.
Cullen328Let's discuss it 03:46, 23 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I can't say I see it either. Additionally, the consensus now seems to be to not separate the criticisms into a separate section. - SummerPhDv2.0 12:58, 23 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I agree with the responders. Wikipedia preferred style is to not have criticism or controversy sections. If the museum has attracted notable criticisms that can be reliably sourced, it does not violate
NPOV to inclued them in the article.
Ashmoo (
talk) 12:42, 22 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Libelous claims in the article
This article contains many libelous and in a few cases, outright falsified statements that is unbecoming of any wiki article. These include:
representatives of Hobby Lobby organized archaeological looting in Iraq to present smuggled artifacts to the Museum of the Bible
This is false on two levels, first there is no proof whatsoever that representatives "organized archaeological looting". There is a LARGE difference between receiving stolen antiquities and participating in the actual theft. Read the citations that were offered to see the difference between what the article says the citations say and what the citations actually say.
Secondly, the Museum was not a party to the lawsuit and there has emerged no proof that these particular items were intended to be part of the collection. The articled insinuation to the contrary cannot be justified in any way as there is no evidence for it.
I have removed the libelous statements and have put this article on my watch list.
Eric the fever (
talk) 00:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Before looking at any of the content questions, two points: "libelous" and "no proof" are not issues here. Wikipedia does not decide what is true or false, only what is
verifiable. If independent reliable sources said the Museum of the Bible is a cheese sandwich, Wikipedia would say the same.
The source you removed, NBC News, is unquestionably an
independent reliable source. Whatever it says is verifiable.
The source you added, the museum's website, is not an independent source. It is a
primary source, usable for only basic, noncontroversial statements of fact (e.g., address, date established, etc., unless disputed by independent reliable sources).
You retitled the "Hobby Lobby smuggling scandal" section "2010 Clay bulla seizure". The main article for the section is
Hobby Lobby smuggling scandal. The name of the section should match the title of the main article. If you feel that article should be retitled, please discuss the issue there.
You removed the well supported fact that "U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement returned 3800 items seized from Hobby Lobby to Iraq."
You added the museum's opinion as them "noting". This casts their statement as a fact. I can note that today is Thursday. I cannot "note" that chocolate is the best favor of ice cream. You will need an independent reliable source to include what the museum says of their involvement in the situation. - SummerPhDv2.0 02:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
That citation does not, ANYWHERE, even imply that "Hobby Lobby organized archaeological looting in Iraq". The statement in the actual source says absolutely nothing on looting or stealing, merely that the artifacts were being returned by ICE.
You will not find anywhere, a reliable source claiming what this article claims because that is libel under US law. There is an enormously large difference between POSSESSING stolen property and STEALING property. That is why news articles about, lets say stolen cars, never say "xxx person was alleged to have stolen a car" unless there is proof upfront that the person in question stole the car. The stories say, "xxx person was allegedly in possession of a stolen car." News organizations have gotten sued for mislabels like the ones in this article.
Eric the fever (
talk) 03:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Needs upgrading to mention its fake dead sea scrolls
I haven't time, but this article needs upgrading to mention that five of its dead sea scrolls have been identified as fakes.
Moriori (
talk) 02:02, 23 October 2018 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Museums, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
museums on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MuseumsWikipedia:WikiProject MuseumsTemplate:WikiProject MuseumsMuseums articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BibleWikipedia:WikiProject BibleTemplate:WikiProject BibleBible articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject National Register of Historic Places, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of U.S.
historic sites listed on the
National Register of Historic Places on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.National Register of Historic PlacesWikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic PlacesTemplate:WikiProject National Register of Historic PlacesNational Register of Historic Places articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
science,
pseudoscience,
pseudohistory and
skepticism related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism articles
Some of the page history has gone missing, there were edits between 2012 and 1 July 2015.
E.M.Gregory (
talk) 17:38, 13 August 2015 (UTC)reply
List of museum incidents
I have previously undone the addition of a list of museum incidents, which are not directly related to this article, but it has been restored. Input welcome, —
PaleoNeonate – 23:54, 17 August 2017 (UTC)reply
The removal was correct. What other museums have done is irrelevant. Those insisting on re-inserting this material should instead create an article on museums and looted artifacts --
Guy Macon (
talk) 03:45, 21 August 2017 (UTC)reply
@
Danlidwin: More information related to the disputed changes:
WP:NPOVN discussion (this is an archive which should not be edited, but a new thread may be opened at
WP:NPOVN if needed). Thanks, —
PaleoNeonate – 19:05, 20 September 2017 (UTC)reply
Article Seems largely Biased
The entire structure of this article seems largely biased. Normally there is a section for "criticisms" and/or "controversies" but it seems some editors have taken it upon themselves to make sure that criticisms or controversies are brought up in every section even if they're only tangentially related. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Asburysouthpaw (
talk •
contribs) 01:56, 23 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I don't see that. The "History" section has no criticisms. The "Projected exhibits" section has no criticisms. The "Food services" section has no criticisms. The "Board and leadership" section has no criticisms. The "Gallery" section has no criticisms. The introduction and the "Reception" sections mention relevant controversies, as they should.
peterl (
talk) 03:34, 23 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I, too, see no evidence that the "entire structure" of the article is biased, or any part of it, for that matter. Actually, many editors favor incorporating criticism into the article rather than creating separate criticism/controversy sections. So,
Asburysouthpaw, I think that you need to be far more specific with your criticisms.
Cullen328Let's discuss it 03:46, 23 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I can't say I see it either. Additionally, the consensus now seems to be to not separate the criticisms into a separate section. - SummerPhDv2.0 12:58, 23 April 2018 (UTC)reply
I agree with the responders. Wikipedia preferred style is to not have criticism or controversy sections. If the museum has attracted notable criticisms that can be reliably sourced, it does not violate
NPOV to inclued them in the article.
Ashmoo (
talk) 12:42, 22 March 2020 (UTC)reply
Libelous claims in the article
This article contains many libelous and in a few cases, outright falsified statements that is unbecoming of any wiki article. These include:
representatives of Hobby Lobby organized archaeological looting in Iraq to present smuggled artifacts to the Museum of the Bible
This is false on two levels, first there is no proof whatsoever that representatives "organized archaeological looting". There is a LARGE difference between receiving stolen antiquities and participating in the actual theft. Read the citations that were offered to see the difference between what the article says the citations say and what the citations actually say.
Secondly, the Museum was not a party to the lawsuit and there has emerged no proof that these particular items were intended to be part of the collection. The articled insinuation to the contrary cannot be justified in any way as there is no evidence for it.
I have removed the libelous statements and have put this article on my watch list.
Eric the fever (
talk) 00:53, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Before looking at any of the content questions, two points: "libelous" and "no proof" are not issues here. Wikipedia does not decide what is true or false, only what is
verifiable. If independent reliable sources said the Museum of the Bible is a cheese sandwich, Wikipedia would say the same.
The source you removed, NBC News, is unquestionably an
independent reliable source. Whatever it says is verifiable.
The source you added, the museum's website, is not an independent source. It is a
primary source, usable for only basic, noncontroversial statements of fact (e.g., address, date established, etc., unless disputed by independent reliable sources).
You retitled the "Hobby Lobby smuggling scandal" section "2010 Clay bulla seizure". The main article for the section is
Hobby Lobby smuggling scandal. The name of the section should match the title of the main article. If you feel that article should be retitled, please discuss the issue there.
You removed the well supported fact that "U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement returned 3800 items seized from Hobby Lobby to Iraq."
You added the museum's opinion as them "noting". This casts their statement as a fact. I can note that today is Thursday. I cannot "note" that chocolate is the best favor of ice cream. You will need an independent reliable source to include what the museum says of their involvement in the situation. - SummerPhDv2.0 02:16, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
That citation does not, ANYWHERE, even imply that "Hobby Lobby organized archaeological looting in Iraq". The statement in the actual source says absolutely nothing on looting or stealing, merely that the artifacts were being returned by ICE.
You will not find anywhere, a reliable source claiming what this article claims because that is libel under US law. There is an enormously large difference between POSSESSING stolen property and STEALING property. That is why news articles about, lets say stolen cars, never say "xxx person was alleged to have stolen a car" unless there is proof upfront that the person in question stole the car. The stories say, "xxx person was allegedly in possession of a stolen car." News organizations have gotten sued for mislabels like the ones in this article.
Eric the fever (
talk) 03:33, 10 August 2018 (UTC)reply
Needs upgrading to mention its fake dead sea scrolls
I haven't time, but this article needs upgrading to mention that five of its dead sea scrolls have been identified as fakes.
Moriori (
talk) 02:02, 23 October 2018 (UTC)reply