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The aforementioned move was later done by Kwamikagami in February 2013, and went uncontested. Is this the new consensus? -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 15:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
The sole inline reference in the article is Walter Breu's own submission identified by Change request number 2012-068, which is really just a primary source. Fortunately, this submission was ultimately accepted, per http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=svm The sourcing is woefully lacking here. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 16:18, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Is there an outside reference to confirm the nationality of the people who speak Slavomolisano? Do they declare themselves as Italians or as Croats? Any data from Census? Until the data is available, I consider it safe to assume that the people are in fact Croats - they speak Croatian, and are descendants of Croatians from Dalmatia. Anecdotal evidence also tells me they infact consider themselves to be Croats (Croatian national television made several documentaries). I will change the article and wait for the reply and eventual correction. TX -- Imbehind ( talk) 17:18, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Moreover the cited source from which the author contributed Italian ethnicity to Molise Croats is not the primary source, and therefore I will erase it until someone brings the relevant Census data. The source writes: "Comment on factors of ethnolinguistic identity and informal domains of use: Molise Slavs consider themselves to be "normal" Italians with an additional knowledge of there Slavic mother tongue." -- Imbehind ( talk) 17:32, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
We know that they're Croat by ancestry, which is what the first link seems to be saying. But ancestry and ethnicity aren't the same thing, and how outsiders see them might not be how they see themselves. As for the second, governments are constantly establishing relations like this, but that could just be politics – take Macedonian diplomatic recognition of the Burusho as descendents of Alexander, for example. — kwami ( talk) 13:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Slavomolisano is not Chakavian - it is Ikavian Neoštokavian belonging to "Western" type. The confusion has apparently been going on for a very long time - from at least 2006. It is discussed as a Štokavian dialect in Josip Lisac's Hrvatska dijalektologija 1. Hrvatski dijalekti i govori štokavskog narječja i hrvatski govori torlačkog narječja ("Croatian dialectology 1. Croatian dialects and speeches of the Shtokavian dialect and Croatian speeches of the Torlakian dialect"). Lisac is the most prominent Croatian dialectologist. The article itself has in the references section a link to Lisac's article in Kolo where he discusses this, concluding with Same bi se moliške hrvatske govore danas moglo tretirati kao dijalekatnu oazu, ali mislim da je opravdanije njihovo uvrštavanje u novoštokavski ikavski dijalekt, "These Slavomolisano dialects could be treated as a dialectal oasis, but it would be more justifiable to include them within the Neoštokavian Ikavian dialet". It shares some old isoglosses with some south Chakavian dialects but it is not Chakavian. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 15:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
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@ Vorziblix: So can you explain to me again how ethnic CROATS that migrated to italy from CROATIA and came to by know as molise CROATS actually speak chinese or something? SerVasi ( talk) 22:58, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Molise Croatian branched out of Croatian. Wether they are mutually inteligible today is absolutely irrelevant. There are countless examples of neighbouring villages in Croatia not understanding eachother but still being branches of croatian. Also their alleged slavic only identification is irrelevat. As you mentioned austrians can identify themselves as pinoy for all i care but at the end of the day they speak german. Croatian is internationally recognized as a language so i dont understand your denial of it. SerVasi ( talk) 13:37, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Croatian being only a standard is an opinion not a fact. You use the term linguists very losely. This topic is debated to this day so at most you can say "some linguists".The only concensus that was reached was the one by the international community that recognized Croatian as a seperate language. Furthermore you skimmed over cakavian and kajkavian but they are very important. A person from Belgrade wont understand a person from Pazin but a stokavian speaker from Zagreb(with some effort) would. That is also a proof of Croatian as an ausbau language.Also by your logic Molise Croatian is uninteligible to all "BCMS" so i guess it shouldnt be listed under that either? SerVasi ( talk) 02:50, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Croatian reasonably unites the dialects of kajkavian,shtokavian and chakavian while the others dont. Thats a fact that was enough for the international community to unanimously recognize it as a language and you just cant refute that. SerVasi ( talk) 02:53, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Croatian is a recgnized as a LANGUAGE by the eu and the international community. Saying otherwise is just fact twisting. Croatian has many more similarities to czech,slovak and slovene than the rest of "bcms". The rest has more similarities to turkish and the whole word adoption system is different. Them being mutualy inteligible is normal cuz they fall in the group of south slavic languages. If you disagree with this then please explain to me your views on belarusian. Can they speak to russians? Yes. Can they speak to ukranians? Yes. Can russians speak to ukranians? Barely. SerVasi ( talk) 19:28, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: So where do we draw the line of seperate languages? Is it 91.36% inteligibility? Or maybe 87.68%? Croatian recognition by eu is in the same vein as french,german or any other so please stop. You are flip flopping between de fact and de jure when it suits your argument but at the same time dismissing my case on the same basis. SerVasi ( talk) 02:18, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Again you are talking about some made up concensus. I can easily point you to these articles Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins and Serbs. You claim my de jure statements dont matter yet you ramble on about easter herzegovinian. I can flip flop (de facto) like you and claim that croatia has barely any native speakers of it making your point about belarusian completely irrelevant. I have provided you examples but decent comprehension instead of tunnel vision is necessary. Cheers SerVasi ( talk) 03:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to tell you a very important thing, I have been researching Slavo-Molisan and if it really is an independent language, it is a dialect of Serbo-Croatian. In recent years, Slavomolisano has already been considered an independent language, there is enough evidence to prove this (this according to recent research): 1. Slavomolisano has many archaicisms from Old Serbo-Croatian, many of the words in Slavomolisano are archaic forms of words about 5 centuries ago, probably even older (this means that Slavomolisano and Serbo-Croatian have a common ancestor and we could call this ancestor medieval Serbo-Croatian or Slavomolisan-Serbo-Croatian), and 2. Slavomolino has too much influence from other languages. Many words have been replaced by terms from Romance languages (mainly from the dialecto Neapolitan Abruzzese and Italian), 45% in the case of nouns. and 3. Isolation has meant that Slavomolisan words that come from Old Slavomolisan-Serbo-Croatian are different from their close relative Serbo-Croatian, and the conclusion Slavomolisan is totally different from Serbo-Croatian and is not a dialect but a language. Bolitachan ( talk) 20:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
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The aforementioned move was later done by Kwamikagami in February 2013, and went uncontested. Is this the new consensus? -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 15:57, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
The sole inline reference in the article is Walter Breu's own submission identified by Change request number 2012-068, which is really just a primary source. Fortunately, this submission was ultimately accepted, per http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/documentation.asp?id=svm The sourcing is woefully lacking here. -- Joy [shallot] ( talk) 16:18, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Is there an outside reference to confirm the nationality of the people who speak Slavomolisano? Do they declare themselves as Italians or as Croats? Any data from Census? Until the data is available, I consider it safe to assume that the people are in fact Croats - they speak Croatian, and are descendants of Croatians from Dalmatia. Anecdotal evidence also tells me they infact consider themselves to be Croats (Croatian national television made several documentaries). I will change the article and wait for the reply and eventual correction. TX -- Imbehind ( talk) 17:18, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
Moreover the cited source from which the author contributed Italian ethnicity to Molise Croats is not the primary source, and therefore I will erase it until someone brings the relevant Census data. The source writes: "Comment on factors of ethnolinguistic identity and informal domains of use: Molise Slavs consider themselves to be "normal" Italians with an additional knowledge of there Slavic mother tongue." -- Imbehind ( talk) 17:32, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
We know that they're Croat by ancestry, which is what the first link seems to be saying. But ancestry and ethnicity aren't the same thing, and how outsiders see them might not be how they see themselves. As for the second, governments are constantly establishing relations like this, but that could just be politics – take Macedonian diplomatic recognition of the Burusho as descendents of Alexander, for example. — kwami ( talk) 13:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Slavomolisano is not Chakavian - it is Ikavian Neoštokavian belonging to "Western" type. The confusion has apparently been going on for a very long time - from at least 2006. It is discussed as a Štokavian dialect in Josip Lisac's Hrvatska dijalektologija 1. Hrvatski dijalekti i govori štokavskog narječja i hrvatski govori torlačkog narječja ("Croatian dialectology 1. Croatian dialects and speeches of the Shtokavian dialect and Croatian speeches of the Torlakian dialect"). Lisac is the most prominent Croatian dialectologist. The article itself has in the references section a link to Lisac's article in Kolo where he discusses this, concluding with Same bi se moliške hrvatske govore danas moglo tretirati kao dijalekatnu oazu, ali mislim da je opravdanije njihovo uvrštavanje u novoštokavski ikavski dijalekt, "These Slavomolisano dialects could be treated as a dialectal oasis, but it would be more justifiable to include them within the Neoštokavian Ikavian dialet". It shares some old isoglosses with some south Chakavian dialects but it is not Chakavian. -- Ivan Štambuk ( talk) 15:10, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
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@ Vorziblix: So can you explain to me again how ethnic CROATS that migrated to italy from CROATIA and came to by know as molise CROATS actually speak chinese or something? SerVasi ( talk) 22:58, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Molise Croatian branched out of Croatian. Wether they are mutually inteligible today is absolutely irrelevant. There are countless examples of neighbouring villages in Croatia not understanding eachother but still being branches of croatian. Also their alleged slavic only identification is irrelevat. As you mentioned austrians can identify themselves as pinoy for all i care but at the end of the day they speak german. Croatian is internationally recognized as a language so i dont understand your denial of it. SerVasi ( talk) 13:37, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Croatian being only a standard is an opinion not a fact. You use the term linguists very losely. This topic is debated to this day so at most you can say "some linguists".The only concensus that was reached was the one by the international community that recognized Croatian as a seperate language. Furthermore you skimmed over cakavian and kajkavian but they are very important. A person from Belgrade wont understand a person from Pazin but a stokavian speaker from Zagreb(with some effort) would. That is also a proof of Croatian as an ausbau language.Also by your logic Molise Croatian is uninteligible to all "BCMS" so i guess it shouldnt be listed under that either? SerVasi ( talk) 02:50, 4 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Croatian reasonably unites the dialects of kajkavian,shtokavian and chakavian while the others dont. Thats a fact that was enough for the international community to unanimously recognize it as a language and you just cant refute that. SerVasi ( talk) 02:53, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Croatian is a recgnized as a LANGUAGE by the eu and the international community. Saying otherwise is just fact twisting. Croatian has many more similarities to czech,slovak and slovene than the rest of "bcms". The rest has more similarities to turkish and the whole word adoption system is different. Them being mutualy inteligible is normal cuz they fall in the group of south slavic languages. If you disagree with this then please explain to me your views on belarusian. Can they speak to russians? Yes. Can they speak to ukranians? Yes. Can russians speak to ukranians? Barely. SerVasi ( talk) 19:28, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: So where do we draw the line of seperate languages? Is it 91.36% inteligibility? Or maybe 87.68%? Croatian recognition by eu is in the same vein as french,german or any other so please stop. You are flip flopping between de fact and de jure when it suits your argument but at the same time dismissing my case on the same basis. SerVasi ( talk) 02:18, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
@ Vorziblix: Again you are talking about some made up concensus. I can easily point you to these articles Bosniaks, Croats, Montenegrins and Serbs. You claim my de jure statements dont matter yet you ramble on about easter herzegovinian. I can flip flop (de facto) like you and claim that croatia has barely any native speakers of it making your point about belarusian completely irrelevant. I have provided you examples but decent comprehension instead of tunnel vision is necessary. Cheers SerVasi ( talk) 03:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Hi, I would like to tell you a very important thing, I have been researching Slavo-Molisan and if it really is an independent language, it is a dialect of Serbo-Croatian. In recent years, Slavomolisano has already been considered an independent language, there is enough evidence to prove this (this according to recent research): 1. Slavomolisano has many archaicisms from Old Serbo-Croatian, many of the words in Slavomolisano are archaic forms of words about 5 centuries ago, probably even older (this means that Slavomolisano and Serbo-Croatian have a common ancestor and we could call this ancestor medieval Serbo-Croatian or Slavomolisan-Serbo-Croatian), and 2. Slavomolino has too much influence from other languages. Many words have been replaced by terms from Romance languages (mainly from the dialecto Neapolitan Abruzzese and Italian), 45% in the case of nouns. and 3. Isolation has meant that Slavomolisan words that come from Old Slavomolisan-Serbo-Croatian are different from their close relative Serbo-Croatian, and the conclusion Slavomolisan is totally different from Serbo-Croatian and is not a dialect but a language. Bolitachan ( talk) 20:35, 16 March 2024 (UTC)