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I'll try and find time to write/rewrite anything which may need clarified re: blanket primaries. That was mostly part of an ongoing problem I've had with over-reliance on Our Campaigns/Political Graveyard/etc. on the part of too many editors, sometimes in favor of more first-hand information which contradicts the information they present.
Anyway, here's another reference, mostly directed at Wasted Time, but for anyone else so inclined. Cole, Dermot (2008). "The Final Division of Alaska". North To The Future. Kenmore: Epicenter Press. pp. 170–178. ISBN 978-0-9800825-3-1. mostly summarizes ANILCA, but particularly the differing stances between Gravel and Ted Stevens not only on that issue, but pretty much anything else happening at that time. The sources in the footnotes of the book quotes Lemann, Nicholas (September 30, 1979). "The Great Alaska Feud". Washington Post. Washington., which is described in the book as a "lengthy account." I didn't see it listed in the references, and the summary I read in the book would indicate that it contains lots of relevant material. RadioKAOS ( talk) 09:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Gravel appeared in a recently-produced television series called ANCSA at 40, which has been airing on KTOO's subchannel 360 North. Unlike the other episodes I've seen, which were panel discussions, Gravel appears by himself. I didn't have the time to actually sit down and watch it. That's okay, though, because it will no doubt re-air constantly.
Two things did catch my attention. First, Gravel stated that the 1966 Alaska elections were the original catalyst for ANCSA. This very subject is actually discussed in somewhat considerable detail in Etok: A Story of Eskimo Power by Hugh Gregory Gallagher. Most of it doesn't relate to Gravel, so the short version is that Natives weren't in lockstep behind Bill Egan in 1966 like they were for Democrats at other times. A group of Athabascans led by Ralph Perdue and Morris Thompson, mostly originally from the middle Yukon River and based in Fairbanks, were actively campaigning for Wally Hickel. The first AFN convention two weeks before the general election has been described as a "loyalty test" of the political establishment towards Natives. A peripheral issue around that same time involving Jeff Barry, Egan's chief of staff, apparently had the effect of Egan failing that test. Gravel stated that in this election, he received 80 percent or more of the vote in the villages against Ralph Rivers. The results show that this was the case in a large handful of villages in westernmost Alaska, or between Bethel and Kotzebue, but was hardly the case statewide.
The other thing I heard Gravel say on this program mirrors what has been stated elsewhere regarding his reasons for coming to Alaska. He stated that himself, Nick Begich, Gene Guess and Joe Josephson were all people of roughly the same age who came to Alaska specifically to pursue political ambitions. There's probably some truth to be had in that statement, though Gravel was a little bit older than the others (Begich and Guess were born in 1932, Josephson in 1933). Also, he truly did come to Alaska on his own, while biographies of the others suggest that they came to Alaska directly or indirectly on account of being employed by the federal government. RadioKAOS ( talk) 15:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
I think it's called Alaska Statehood Pioneers in Their Own Words. I no longer have cable nor watch much television in general, so I only stumbled upon this recently while visiting a friend. The episode I watched consisted of a 2004 interview of Katie Hurley by Terrence Cole. Hurley was Ernest Gruening's secretary for most of his tenure as territorial governor, referring to this for many years afterward as her "education at the University of Ernest Gruening". After the constitutional convention, she was removed from the political mainstream and raising her daughters in Wasilla, yet was still involved with Gruening. Curiously, she didn't mention Gruening's 1962 race against Ted Stevens, which Naske has written about in some detail as being Alaska's first truly acrimonious political contest. She did, however, discuss the 1968 election, specifically Bob Bartlett's endorsement of Gravel, believing that Bartlett was conned into endorsing Gravel while "doped up on his deathbed" or words to that effect. While Hurley's biases should be obvious, Bartlett and Gruening may not have been as much in lockstep as has been believed. Bartlett, while delegate, wrote privately about "the E.G. problem", namely that Gruening's ego wouldn't allow him to accept being a private citizen during the period between leaving the governor's office and his election as senator, and how Bartlett felt that Gruening was frequently interfering with his political agenda. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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Why is this article apparently uniquely negative on Gravel? I've never seen this level of in-depth negativity, outright accusing him of lying repeatedly and creating a "controversy" where none appeared (the Barnes Review section). I'm going to be working on this page - the lack of editing done to it is pretty shocking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThaddeusStevens ( talk • contribs) 07:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
In two cases, a claim by Gravel's 2008 campaign is rebutted by articles from the 1970s. The ones I have looked at don't even mention Gravel.
This is clearly synthesis and doe not belong in the article. Both contain extensive footnotes explaining why Gravel is wrong, but do not cite any sources that make that claim. Nothing about Gravel' 2008 or 2016 campaigns should be sourced to articles from the 1970s,
TFD ( talk) 00:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
For reference for this thread, the post on NORN is
here.
Perathian (
talk) 23:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
The red link
Paradigm Research Group could be fixed: Either go to an {{
anchor}}
in the relevant paragraph of the
UFO#Claims by military, government, and aviation personnel section, or go to
Citizen Hearing on Disclosure ending up at
UFO conspiracy theory#Disclosure. –
84.46.53.159 (
talk) 06:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
This article is much too long and contains many items that are unnecessary, duplicative, irrelevant, and/or violate WP: NOTEVERYTHING and WP:DUE standards. I encourage interested editors to review the article and reduce it down to a reasonable size, focusing especially on items that do not merit inclusion per WP:BLP requirements. After allowing some time for interested editors to make these reviews and edits, I will make an attempt at some further reductions to the article. Go4thProsper ( talk) 23:08, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Usually when a celebrity (Little Richard, Christopher Plummer for a time, Diego Maradona, among many others) or in this case politician dies (Robert Mugabe (not comparing Gravel to Mugabe of course), among many others), their image is usually changed to something from when they were most active and relevant. Since Gravel was Senator from 1969 to 1981. I would support changing the infobox image to something from that time period. After all he read the Pentagon Papers into record in 1971. Lochglasgowstrathyre ( talk) 13:34, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Added text and Guardian link to high-quality video of Gravel being casually filmed and interviewed during primary campaign in New Hampshire on January 3, 2008, by Mother Jones investigative reporter James Ridgeway, which also includes video of a telephonic interview with NPR's Neal Conan for Talk of the Nation. Gravel, Ridgeway and Conan all died in the first eight months of 2021. Activist ( talk) 09:56, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Picture about the tour here [1] AMCKen ( talk) 06:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Mpen320 seems to believe that the redlink for Lewis should be "Clyde Lewis (Alaska politician)" instead, based solely on cherry-picking a poor-quality "source" that's been adopted as some sort of standard on Wikidata. WP:AT is policy on this site. For one, it strongly suggests that parenthetical disambiguation should be a last resort, not a first resort. It also says that extended parenthetical disambiguation should be discouraged when a simpler disambiguator would suffice. There is no article or other page titled "Clyde Lewis (politician)", for example. For another, the policy contains WP:COMMONNAME. Google hits are not a good indication of that due to numerous false positives related to the talk show host Clyde Lewis. Here's a sample of higher-quality sources instead. This is a piece published by the Washington Post in 1979, written by a notable writer ( Nicholas Lemann), who refers to him as C. R. Lewis. This is a piece published by the Anchorage Daily News in 2021, written by a notable writer ( Stephen Haycox), who refers to him as C. R. Lewis. The text of his obituary begins by referring to him as C. R. Lewis. That's just the low-hanging fruit of the top Google results, but the chronological spacing of those three examples deserves significant weight. Of greater relevance is the NewsBank archive of the Anchorage Times (accessed at adn.newsbank.com). It returned 5,000+ hits for C. R. Lewis versus 150+ hits for Clyde Lewis. Many of the latter hits appeared to be about a relative involved in legal trouble serious enough to warrant news coverage. Mpen320, if you would, please explain how this justifies defying policy. We're expected to give extra weight to something because it's been marked as policy. When it comes to article titles, however, many editors appear to believe that "I like it" or "I don't like it" somehow takes precedence over policy. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
This did not require a five(?) paragraph scolding. You explanation in the reversion was fine. Feel free to create an actual article for the guy if that important.~~---- Mpen320 ( talk) 16:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
This article has been a GA for many years. Evidently, the bar for GAs is a lot lower than I expected, the excellent job done with this article notwithstanding. I'm concerned that the article has been messed with enough in recent years to warrant a WP:GAR. I lack the time for such, however. Let me discuss two items. First is the images. It has long been the practice of GAs to illustrate the article as fully as possible, including using images which provide context for statements made in the article if images directly depicting the subject aren't available. At some point, every image not of or containing Gravel was removed from the article. It appears some but not all of them were restored. The recently-added infobox photo was uploaded by someone with a reputation for indiscriminately scavenging content off the web and uploading them to Commons with spurious claims of public domain. Looks to me like copyright is a consideration under WP:GACR. I found a small handful of photos of Mike and Rita Gravel from the late 1950s in two contemporary publications lacking copyright notices. I'm reluctant to donate them to Commons if either this article is being pushed further in the direction of a hagiography or if the lack of warm bodies on Commons means a lack of willingness to clean up their problem content. The second concern is the long-standing presence in the infobox of a predecessor and successor to his state House tenure. Whoever added that just made it up out of thin air. There were no designated seats in multi-member districts until the 13th Legislature. Therefore, it is impossible to determine a predecessor or successor. Why would I go to the trouble of writing and properly sourcing an explanatory note mentioning all that, only to have someone come along and add something which treats it like it was total bullshit? Furthermore, what sort of credibility exists in saying that state legislators are inherently notable but there's no redlinks for either John Hellenthal or Mike Beirne? We're treating both of them like, in the immortal words of Casey Kasem, "just a bunch of wasted names that don't mean diddly shit" because neither is Mike Gravel or someone closely related to him. In other, one more thing pushing this towards a hagiography instead of an entry in a comprehensive information resource. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
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I'll try and find time to write/rewrite anything which may need clarified re: blanket primaries. That was mostly part of an ongoing problem I've had with over-reliance on Our Campaigns/Political Graveyard/etc. on the part of too many editors, sometimes in favor of more first-hand information which contradicts the information they present.
Anyway, here's another reference, mostly directed at Wasted Time, but for anyone else so inclined. Cole, Dermot (2008). "The Final Division of Alaska". North To The Future. Kenmore: Epicenter Press. pp. 170–178. ISBN 978-0-9800825-3-1. mostly summarizes ANILCA, but particularly the differing stances between Gravel and Ted Stevens not only on that issue, but pretty much anything else happening at that time. The sources in the footnotes of the book quotes Lemann, Nicholas (September 30, 1979). "The Great Alaska Feud". Washington Post. Washington., which is described in the book as a "lengthy account." I didn't see it listed in the references, and the summary I read in the book would indicate that it contains lots of relevant material. RadioKAOS ( talk) 09:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
Gravel appeared in a recently-produced television series called ANCSA at 40, which has been airing on KTOO's subchannel 360 North. Unlike the other episodes I've seen, which were panel discussions, Gravel appears by himself. I didn't have the time to actually sit down and watch it. That's okay, though, because it will no doubt re-air constantly.
Two things did catch my attention. First, Gravel stated that the 1966 Alaska elections were the original catalyst for ANCSA. This very subject is actually discussed in somewhat considerable detail in Etok: A Story of Eskimo Power by Hugh Gregory Gallagher. Most of it doesn't relate to Gravel, so the short version is that Natives weren't in lockstep behind Bill Egan in 1966 like they were for Democrats at other times. A group of Athabascans led by Ralph Perdue and Morris Thompson, mostly originally from the middle Yukon River and based in Fairbanks, were actively campaigning for Wally Hickel. The first AFN convention two weeks before the general election has been described as a "loyalty test" of the political establishment towards Natives. A peripheral issue around that same time involving Jeff Barry, Egan's chief of staff, apparently had the effect of Egan failing that test. Gravel stated that in this election, he received 80 percent or more of the vote in the villages against Ralph Rivers. The results show that this was the case in a large handful of villages in westernmost Alaska, or between Bethel and Kotzebue, but was hardly the case statewide.
The other thing I heard Gravel say on this program mirrors what has been stated elsewhere regarding his reasons for coming to Alaska. He stated that himself, Nick Begich, Gene Guess and Joe Josephson were all people of roughly the same age who came to Alaska specifically to pursue political ambitions. There's probably some truth to be had in that statement, though Gravel was a little bit older than the others (Begich and Guess were born in 1932, Josephson in 1933). Also, he truly did come to Alaska on his own, while biographies of the others suggest that they came to Alaska directly or indirectly on account of being employed by the federal government. RadioKAOS ( talk) 15:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
I think it's called Alaska Statehood Pioneers in Their Own Words. I no longer have cable nor watch much television in general, so I only stumbled upon this recently while visiting a friend. The episode I watched consisted of a 2004 interview of Katie Hurley by Terrence Cole. Hurley was Ernest Gruening's secretary for most of his tenure as territorial governor, referring to this for many years afterward as her "education at the University of Ernest Gruening". After the constitutional convention, she was removed from the political mainstream and raising her daughters in Wasilla, yet was still involved with Gruening. Curiously, she didn't mention Gruening's 1962 race against Ted Stevens, which Naske has written about in some detail as being Alaska's first truly acrimonious political contest. She did, however, discuss the 1968 election, specifically Bob Bartlett's endorsement of Gravel, believing that Bartlett was conned into endorsing Gravel while "doped up on his deathbed" or words to that effect. While Hurley's biases should be obvious, Bartlett and Gruening may not have been as much in lockstep as has been believed. Bartlett, while delegate, wrote privately about "the E.G. problem", namely that Gruening's ego wouldn't allow him to accept being a private citizen during the period between leaving the governor's office and his election as senator, and how Bartlett felt that Gruening was frequently interfering with his political agenda. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
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Why is this article apparently uniquely negative on Gravel? I've never seen this level of in-depth negativity, outright accusing him of lying repeatedly and creating a "controversy" where none appeared (the Barnes Review section). I'm going to be working on this page - the lack of editing done to it is pretty shocking. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ThaddeusStevens ( talk • contribs) 07:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
In two cases, a claim by Gravel's 2008 campaign is rebutted by articles from the 1970s. The ones I have looked at don't even mention Gravel.
This is clearly synthesis and doe not belong in the article. Both contain extensive footnotes explaining why Gravel is wrong, but do not cite any sources that make that claim. Nothing about Gravel' 2008 or 2016 campaigns should be sourced to articles from the 1970s,
TFD ( talk) 00:26, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
For reference for this thread, the post on NORN is
here.
Perathian (
talk) 23:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
The red link
Paradigm Research Group could be fixed: Either go to an {{
anchor}}
in the relevant paragraph of the
UFO#Claims by military, government, and aviation personnel section, or go to
Citizen Hearing on Disclosure ending up at
UFO conspiracy theory#Disclosure. –
84.46.53.159 (
talk) 06:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
This article is much too long and contains many items that are unnecessary, duplicative, irrelevant, and/or violate WP: NOTEVERYTHING and WP:DUE standards. I encourage interested editors to review the article and reduce it down to a reasonable size, focusing especially on items that do not merit inclusion per WP:BLP requirements. After allowing some time for interested editors to make these reviews and edits, I will make an attempt at some further reductions to the article. Go4thProsper ( talk) 23:08, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
Usually when a celebrity (Little Richard, Christopher Plummer for a time, Diego Maradona, among many others) or in this case politician dies (Robert Mugabe (not comparing Gravel to Mugabe of course), among many others), their image is usually changed to something from when they were most active and relevant. Since Gravel was Senator from 1969 to 1981. I would support changing the infobox image to something from that time period. After all he read the Pentagon Papers into record in 1971. Lochglasgowstrathyre ( talk) 13:34, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
Added text and Guardian link to high-quality video of Gravel being casually filmed and interviewed during primary campaign in New Hampshire on January 3, 2008, by Mother Jones investigative reporter James Ridgeway, which also includes video of a telephonic interview with NPR's Neal Conan for Talk of the Nation. Gravel, Ridgeway and Conan all died in the first eight months of 2021. Activist ( talk) 09:56, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
Picture about the tour here [1] AMCKen ( talk) 06:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
Mpen320 seems to believe that the redlink for Lewis should be "Clyde Lewis (Alaska politician)" instead, based solely on cherry-picking a poor-quality "source" that's been adopted as some sort of standard on Wikidata. WP:AT is policy on this site. For one, it strongly suggests that parenthetical disambiguation should be a last resort, not a first resort. It also says that extended parenthetical disambiguation should be discouraged when a simpler disambiguator would suffice. There is no article or other page titled "Clyde Lewis (politician)", for example. For another, the policy contains WP:COMMONNAME. Google hits are not a good indication of that due to numerous false positives related to the talk show host Clyde Lewis. Here's a sample of higher-quality sources instead. This is a piece published by the Washington Post in 1979, written by a notable writer ( Nicholas Lemann), who refers to him as C. R. Lewis. This is a piece published by the Anchorage Daily News in 2021, written by a notable writer ( Stephen Haycox), who refers to him as C. R. Lewis. The text of his obituary begins by referring to him as C. R. Lewis. That's just the low-hanging fruit of the top Google results, but the chronological spacing of those three examples deserves significant weight. Of greater relevance is the NewsBank archive of the Anchorage Times (accessed at adn.newsbank.com). It returned 5,000+ hits for C. R. Lewis versus 150+ hits for Clyde Lewis. Many of the latter hits appeared to be about a relative involved in legal trouble serious enough to warrant news coverage. Mpen320, if you would, please explain how this justifies defying policy. We're expected to give extra weight to something because it's been marked as policy. When it comes to article titles, however, many editors appear to believe that "I like it" or "I don't like it" somehow takes precedence over policy. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
This did not require a five(?) paragraph scolding. You explanation in the reversion was fine. Feel free to create an actual article for the guy if that important.~~---- Mpen320 ( talk) 16:06, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
This article has been a GA for many years. Evidently, the bar for GAs is a lot lower than I expected, the excellent job done with this article notwithstanding. I'm concerned that the article has been messed with enough in recent years to warrant a WP:GAR. I lack the time for such, however. Let me discuss two items. First is the images. It has long been the practice of GAs to illustrate the article as fully as possible, including using images which provide context for statements made in the article if images directly depicting the subject aren't available. At some point, every image not of or containing Gravel was removed from the article. It appears some but not all of them were restored. The recently-added infobox photo was uploaded by someone with a reputation for indiscriminately scavenging content off the web and uploading them to Commons with spurious claims of public domain. Looks to me like copyright is a consideration under WP:GACR. I found a small handful of photos of Mike and Rita Gravel from the late 1950s in two contemporary publications lacking copyright notices. I'm reluctant to donate them to Commons if either this article is being pushed further in the direction of a hagiography or if the lack of warm bodies on Commons means a lack of willingness to clean up their problem content. The second concern is the long-standing presence in the infobox of a predecessor and successor to his state House tenure. Whoever added that just made it up out of thin air. There were no designated seats in multi-member districts until the 13th Legislature. Therefore, it is impossible to determine a predecessor or successor. Why would I go to the trouble of writing and properly sourcing an explanatory note mentioning all that, only to have someone come along and add something which treats it like it was total bullshit? Furthermore, what sort of credibility exists in saying that state legislators are inherently notable but there's no redlinks for either John Hellenthal or Mike Beirne? We're treating both of them like, in the immortal words of Casey Kasem, "just a bunch of wasted names that don't mean diddly shit" because neither is Mike Gravel or someone closely related to him. In other, one more thing pushing this towards a hagiography instead of an entry in a comprehensive information resource. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 09:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)